[Continuation] Australian Politics - The Morrison Period Part II - Page 10

lionking · 26th August 2021, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Being in one of the non-cursed Sydney areas, I don't think they are a lot different in practice. There have been regular police crackdowns on lockdown rules-breakers here, 100kms from the CBD. Btw, the hardware stores, all three of them within 50kms, are closed. The dozens of supermarkets, though, are open under limited conditions.

Really, people have been bitching about a "Ring Of Steel" around the affected areas and why Gladys didn't go hard earlier. Of course she has gone far too belatedly. But now that Ring Of Steel is indeed clamped down on the worst affected areas, a "Fence Of Steel" is on the broader Sydney area, and the rest of the state is locked down hard. Short of nailing everyone to their kitchen tables, the place is now stationary. So we are all just going to have to wait this out.

I hope you are right, but I expect videos of massive close contact crowds at Bondi and Manly.

And please understand that I was born and bred in Sydney. Chippendale slum, Marist Brothers, Bondi Surf Club. I love Sydney, but I am equally sad and angry at how the place is governed at the moment.

Norman Alexander · 26th August 2021, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I hope you are right, but I expect videos of massive close contact crowds at Bondi and Manly.

The fake vaccination proof industry is going to be rampant.

Quote:

And please understand that I was born and bred in Sydney. Chippendale slum, Marist Brothers, Bondi Surf Club. I love Sydney, but I am equally sad and angry at how the place is governed at the moment.

I was born in another state, but grew up, and have lived and worked in Sydney all my life. It's always had shocking governments, on both sides, for as long as I can remember. Probably stems and continues from the earliest colonial times.

Doesn't mean I buy into that "Hate Melbourne!" lark either.

Mexicans...

lionking · 26th August 2021, 06:14 AM

Well if you have not lived and breathed Melbourne air, you are dead to me…..

Norman Alexander · 26th August 2021, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Well if you have not lived and breathed Melbourne air, you are dead to me…..

Not only have I done that, I have worn black to work, and taken coffee in a laneway.

Wildy · 27th August 2021, 07:35 PM

Another 1,035 covid cases in NSW today. I think it's going to get a lot worse before it improves, and I don't think easing restrictions for the vaccinated are a good idea since we know delta still affects vaccinated people.

The only good thing lately is that the National Cabinet decided to allow younger people to get vaccinated, so good on the state premiers for making that decision.

rjh01 · 27th August 2021, 10:26 PM

The situation in NSW may not improve. Their numbers are going up by 40+% per week since mid-June. At this rate, NSW will hit 2,000 new cases per day before 20 September.

The Atheist · 28th August 2021, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

Another 1,035 covid cases in NSW today. I think it's going to get a lot worse before it improves, and I don't think easing restrictions for the vaccinated are a good idea since we know delta still affects vaccinated people.

I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated.

I've been schooling some clowns on how quickly the vaccine wears off, and it's much better for people to be exposed within three months of vaccination, because by six months, the protection against delta is significantly reduced. Get a big wave out of the way and resume life as usual. It would be a bit messy for a while, but I really think the long-term result would be significantly positive compared to trying to hold the growth curve to less than parabolic.

lionking · 28th August 2021, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated.

I've been schooling some clowns on how quickly the vaccine wears off, and it's much better for people to be exposed within three months of vaccination, because by six months, the protection against delta is significantly reduced. Get a big wave out of the way and resume life as usual. It would be a bit messy for a while, but I really think the long-term result would be significantly positive compared to trying to hold the growth curve to less than parabolic.

Thank Christ our leaders will never listen to the likes of you. The vulnerable include children. Messy for a while? Before long there will be dozens of deaths a day in NSW, but not other, more responsible states.

Do you seriously not understand the insanity of letting it rip with vaccination rates of around 30%?

Life as usual means needless deaths. Try it in NZ by all means and report back. Otherwise keep your pompous and useless opinions to yourself.

rjh01 · 28th August 2021, 04:14 AM

The alternative in NSW, and maybe other places, is lockdown for a long time, maybe forever.

Wildy · 28th August 2021, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated.

Source?

Norman Alexander · 28th August 2021, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated.

The "vulnerable" consists of all the unvaccinated people at any one point in time. So yeah. When they are all vaccinated, you can consider "letting COVID rip" then.

Which is exactly the same as when we had nobody vaccinated, and also 20% vaccinated, and will be the same for 40%, 60% and 80% vaccinated. Because COVID has been "ripping" for nearly 2 years now, unabated. That's why we have a pandemic!

It's been in all the papers. Sheesh, pay attention.

The Atheist · 28th August 2021, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Thank Christ our leaders will never listen to the likes of you.

They don't need to - Morrison is on the same page, and it looks very much like Gladys has arrived there as well. Chairman Dan and St Jacinda are going to get to that page shortly, and what they do will be fascinating to see.

There aren't many options left when lockdowns don't continue the spread, and I see a few of our experts are arriving at the growing and obvious point that you can't stop delta, unless you're China and can confine everyone to their home.

Quote:

New Zealand has never appeared to have a back-up plan in case elimination doesn’t work out.

I'm pretty sure Victoria has no Plan B, either.

I give it one week from today and both leaderships will recognise they be ******.

Originally Posted by lionking

The vulnerable include children.

OMFG!!11!! Won't someone think of the children????

I'm beginning to wonder whether the panic about kids is actually personal fear.

I've asked repeatedly and still haven't had an answer.

How many dead children is an acceptable number to die from Covid?

Just on the subject of kids - how are those neonates who contracted Covid in the NICU doing? They all dead yet?

They must be confidential, I guess, because they contracted Covid one month ago and I see Victoria's death total hasn't changed, so I'm picking that these most vulnerable babies, who only had a tenuous grasp on life, contracted Covid and survived.

How many dead children is an acceptable number to die from Covid?

(I ask again, because if you think the number can be zero, I can only conclude you have no grip on reality whatsoever.)

Originally Posted by lionking

Messy for a while? Before long there will be dozens of deaths a day in NSW, but not other, more responsible states.

You must be able to see well from the height of that horse you're on.

Yes, the mess will include very good business for undertakers for a couple of months.

I'd be interested to hear what your alternatives are.

Note, this is from your own government's official infectious disease partner:

Quote:

During the week the Doherty Institute in Australia – an infectious disease centre working with the Australian Government to plan its way out of Covid isolation – issued a statement on its modelling on opening Australia up.

“In an average year of influenza, we would roughly have 600 deaths and 200,000 cases in Australia. Any death is a tragedy, but our health system can cope with this. In the Covid-19 modelling, opening up at 70 per cent vaccine coverage of the adult population with partial public health measures, we predict 385,983 symptomatic cases and 1457 deaths over six months.

“With optimal public health measures [and no lockdowns], this can be significantly reduced to 2737 infections and 13 deaths.”

Originally Posted by lionking

Do you seriously not understand the insanity of letting it rip with vaccination rates of around 30%?

Mate, I've been on Covid since Day One. I know exactly what will happen.

The problem is, I'm almost convinced there isn't any other choice. As above, feel free to explain what you think can be done.

And if you want to stay shut forever, ignoring the known affect lockdowns are having on poverty and education, then I'll have no choice but to believe your problem is fear of the disease itself.

Originally Posted by lionking

Life as usual means needless deaths. Try it in NZ by all means and report back. Otherwise keep your pompous and useless opinions to yourself.

I don't think or recommend it's life as usual. And I hope both our governments figure it out: until you hit 70% vaccination rates, cut the chance of super-spreader events by keeping venues shut, wear masks at all times at work and shopping, and hold distancing rules.

Which is exactly what your experts are now saying.

The Atheist · 28th August 2021, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Wildy

Source?

Depends what you want a source for.

The important threads to join together are as follows:

1 Vaccine efficacy against delta wanes quite quickly, and wanes fastest in the oldest. When you start by vaccinating the most-vulnerable groups, they will be hardest hit the longer opening is delayed.

2 Delta is more infectious, and stopping it is either incredibly difficult, or impossible. Taiwan, Aussie and NZ are all employing elimination strategies, and Aussie & NZ are failing miserably. Taiwan has got infections down to single digits with months of lockdown, but since there are still cases, it will break out again.

3 Masks and other measures still slow the spread.

4 Vaccine rates of >70% appear to be the magic number, according to UK's trends.

The Atheist · 28th August 2021, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

The "vulnerable" consists of all the unvaccinated people at any one point in time. So yeah. When they are all vaccinated, you can consider "letting COVID rip" then.

A vote for "shut down forever".

Yeah, destroy children's most important thing in life, send people in poverty into hunger.

But I hate children.

lionking · 28th August 2021, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

A vote for "shut down forever".

********.

Start opening up when 70% vaccinated target is reached. I think over 80% will eventually be vaccinated here with massive numbers of young people lining up.

lionking · 28th August 2021, 06:38 PM

1200 in NSW today. On the way to 10,000. The health system will break down.

I would just like Gladys to admit fault for not acting sooner. She won’t.

psionl0 · 28th August 2021, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated.

I've been schooling some clowns on how quickly the vaccine wears off, and it's much better for people to be exposed within three months of vaccination, because by six months, the protection against delta is significantly reduced. Get a big wave out of the way and resume life as usual. It would be a bit messy for a while, but I really think the long-term result would be significantly positive compared to trying to hold the growth curve to less than parabolic.

That seems to be the policy adopted in the UK and some other European countries. Although new cases continue to soar, hospitalizations and deaths are way down thanks to their high vaccination rate.

It may be that we will be forced ot live this way with Covid for a long time we will need a high vaccination rate (at least 80% among all age groups) before we can risk "letting er rip".

The Atheist · 28th August 2021, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That seems to be the policy adopted in the UK and some other European countries. Although new cases continue to soar, hospitalizations and deaths are way down thanks to their high vaccination rate.

I think it's actually more complicated than that. Spain, France and Italy all had massive outbreaks with unknown, but very large, numbers of people having caught Covid, which also provides some protection against dying from it.

Those countries are all at 60% or more fully vaccinated and infections are going down despite appearing to be fully open.

Originally Posted by psionl0

It may be that we will be forced ot live this way with Covid for a long time we will need a high vaccination rate (at least 80% among all age groups) before we can risk "letting er rip".

Is the vaccine approved for children in Aussie yet? We've just started allowing 12+ over here.

Orphia Nay · 28th August 2021, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Is the vaccine approved for children in Aussie yet? We've just started allowing 12+ over here.

"Vaccination against COVID-19 is recommended for all individuals from 12 years of age, extending the current recommendation for those aged 16 years and older."

- ATAGI, two days ago.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi...s-in-australia

psionl0 · 28th August 2021, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Those countries are all at 60% or more fully vaccinated and infections are going down despite appearing to be fully open.

Not according to the stats I have seen. In the UK the daily rate of new infections is above 30K which is at least as high as it has ever been.

Sideroxylon · 28th August 2021, 11:04 PM

Do you mob hear a difference between “freedom” and “freedoms?” The latter seems to be be getting a fair run these days. Just heard Gladys use it and the protesters do too.

The Atheist · 29th August 2021, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Not according to the stats I have seen. In the UK the daily rate of new infections is above 30K which is at least as high as it has ever been.

I specifically stated: "Spain, France and Italy"

Last time I checked, those countries are not part of UK, and UK isn't even a member of the EU any more. I made no comment on UK.

In the case of UK, they have a high positive rate and a death rate slightly above that of seasonal influenza, so I don't see too many negatives there, either. Hospitals aren't overflowing, crematoria aren't working overtime.

lionking · 29th August 2021, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Do you mob hear a difference between “freedom” and “freedoms?” The latter seems to be be getting a fair run these days. Just heard Gladys use it and the protesters do too.

The other difference with Gladys and co is that they are now referring to people dying “with covid” rather than “from covid”. Neatly placing the blame on the poor victims rather than her unforgivable delay in implement the inadequate “mockdown”.

She also makes reference to those who die without vaccinations. Scum.

psionl0 · 29th August 2021, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

In the case of UK, they have a high positive rate and a death rate slightly above that of seasonal influenza, so I don't see too many negatives there, either. Hospitals aren't overflowing, crematoria aren't working overtime.

That's what I'm getting at. Barring a more effective vaccine or a cure, this may be the best that we can hope for. Keeping a covid outbreak away seems to be getting more difficult as time passes.

Sideroxylon · 29th August 2021, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

The other difference with Gladys and co is that they are now referring to people dying “with covid” rather than “from covid”. Neatly placing the blame on the poor victims rather than her unforgivable delay in implement the inadequate “mockdown”.

She also makes reference to those who die without vaccinations. Scum.

But use as a countable noun? Gladys could just talk about our “freedom.” Reminds me of a certain country that has a Bill of Rights that references specific freedoms. Smacks of an Americanisation of our politics.

The Atheist · 29th August 2021, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

The other difference with Gladys and co is that they are now referring to people dying “with covid” rather than “from covid”.

It's a reasonable distinction in many cases, especially the seriously aged and infirm. If someone in a hospice with three weeks to live catches Covid and croaks, it's hardly one to put in deaths from Covid. Like the 90+ vaccinated bloke who died in Sydney - he was sicker than a parrot to start with, being fed through a tube.

Originally Posted by lionking

She also makes reference to those who die without vaccinations. Scum.

I'd see that as a positive. It might encourage some of the hesitant to get a jab.

Originally Posted by psionl0

That's what I'm getting at. Barring a more effective vaccine or a cure, this may be the best that we can hope for. Keeping a covid outbreak away seems to be getting more difficult as time passes.

Ah, another one beginning to see the light.

I have seen nothing to encourage me to believe delta can be stopped.

Sideroxylon · 29th August 2021, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

It's a reasonable distinction in many cases, especially the seriously aged and infirm. If someone in a hospice with three weeks to live catches Covid and croaks, it's hardly one to put in deaths from Covid. Like the 90+ vaccinated bloke who died in Sydney - he was sicker than a parrot to start with, being fed through a tube.

I'd see that as a positive. It might encourage some of the hesitant to get a jab.

Ah, another one beginning to see the light.

I have seen nothing to encourage me to believe delta can be stopped.

Getting my second dose tomorrow. I expect I will be having another next year.

lionking · 29th August 2021, 03:11 AM

When we get to 80% and open up, I expect a surge to over 90%. Why? Because myGov records vaccinations and will link to checkin apps. As soon as people are denied access to pubs and cafes because they are not vaccinated, they will get it done.

My sister-in-law, who lives in a low virus part of country Victoria, was not planning on getting a vaccination. When I explained she would have to forego her cafe catch ups she soon changed her mind.

lionking · 29th August 2021, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

But use as a countable noun? Gladys could just talk about our “freedom.” Reminds me of a certain country that has a Bill of Rights that references specific freedoms. Smacks of an Americanisation of our politics.

Oh yes I agree with that.

The Atheist · 29th August 2021, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Getting my second dose tomorrow. I expect I will be having another next year.

A word to the science on that - it seems that Janssen/J&J is outperforming other vaccines, and given the speed of decline of the mRNA vaccines, I think it's where I'll be going.

Watch this space.

arthwollipot · 29th August 2021, 09:26 PM

Tasmanian Premier Peter Gutwein admitted to hospital for undisclosed illness

Quote:

Tasmanian Premier Peter Gutwein has been admitted to hospital after becoming unwell at his office.

In a statement, Deputy Premier Jeremy Rockliff said Mr Gutwein was "undergoing a number of tests which to date have not identified any medical issues of concern".

Mr Gutwein would "take a few days to rest and recover", Mr Rockliff said.

"During this time I will be acting as premier and arrangements are being made to cover his absence from Parliament this week," Mr Rockliff said.

Mr Rockliff said an update on Mr Gutwein's "health and return to work will be provided later this week".

First Dan's accident and now this. It's like the job is cursed.

Norman Alexander · 30th August 2021, 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Tasmanian Premier Peter Gutwein admitted to hospital for undisclosed illness

First Dan's accident and now this. It's like the job is cursed.

What's he got? Rug-burns?

arthwollipot · 31st August 2021, 12:34 AM

Scuttlebutt says that there might be an early election.

Orphia Nay · 31st August 2021, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Scuttlebutt says that there might be an early election.

Who's Scuttlebutt?

arthwollipot · 31st August 2021, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Who's Scuttlebutt?

Amy Remeikis from the Guardian.

Quote:

And yes Scott Morrison did say the election will be sooner than you think to the party room today, but I don’t think he means in the next month. I could be wrong – none of us know for sure, because we don’t have fixed terms, so the date is basically a sword of Damocles above all of our heads.

Source

The Atheist · 31st August 2021, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Amy Remeikis from the Guardian.

If he's smart, which he's definitely shown signs of being every now and then, he'd be calling an election asap.

Why wait until Labour finds someone credible?

Orphia Nay · 31st August 2021, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

If he's smart, which he's definitely shown signs of being every now and then, he'd be calling an election asap.

Why wait until Labour finds someone credible?

Exactly.

arthwollipot · 31st August 2021, 01:20 AM

Meanwhile, this:

Coalition MPs want more school chaplains to help children suffering mentally due to ‘alarmist’ climate activism

Quote:

MPs ask Scott Morrison to fund chaplains in every school, saying global warming alarmism is causing ‘mental health problems’ in young

Coalition MPs have urged Scott Morrison to increase funding to the government’s school chaplaincy program to help address concerns that activism against global heating is causing mental health problems for Australian children.

In the Coalition party room on Tuesday, Liberal MP Andrew Wallace compared children’s fear of climate change with the threat of nuclear annihilation in the 1970s and 80s, and requested full funding for chaplains in every school to help ease concerns.

The assistant youth minister, Luke Howarth, has backed the call to expand the program in comments to Guardian Australia, saying climate activism is “alarmist and does cause mental health problems for young people” that could be helped by chaplains.

Moderate Liberals interpret the push as preparation for increased funding to appease conservative party room members in the event the religious discrimination bill is stripped back.

Norman Alexander · 31st August 2021, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Meanwhile, this:

Coalition MPs want more school chaplains to help children suffering mentally due to ‘alarmist’ climate activism

They could have picked any "progressive" cause to justify this push. When in fact this call for increased chaplain-funding is the real alarmism.

lionking · 31st August 2021, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

They could have picked any "progressive" cause to justify this push. When in fact this call for increased chaplain-funding is the real alarmism.

This causes me deep despair. To those not aware of the background, Howard brought this in, no surprise. BUT Gillard and Rudd kept it!!!!

And Albo will as well. Cowardly ALP.

The old guard Catholic ALP supporters have no love for chaplains, but recent ALP leadership simply pander to bible bashers.

Another reason I have trouble casting a formal vote for the ALP.

26th August 2021, 04:09 AM	#361
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Being in one of the non-cursed Sydney areas, I don't think they are a lot different in practice. There have been regular police crackdowns on lockdown rules-breakers here, 100kms from the CBD. Btw, the hardware stores, all three of them within 50kms, are closed. The dozens of supermarkets, though, are open under limited conditions. Really, people have been bitching about a "Ring Of Steel" around the affected areas and why Gladys didn't go hard earlier. Of course she has gone far too belatedly. But now that Ring Of Steel is indeed clamped down on the worst affected areas, a "Fence Of Steel" is on the broader Sydney area, and the rest of the state is locked down hard. Short of nailing everyone to their kitchen tables, the place is now stationary. So we are all just going to have to wait this out. I hope you are right, but I expect videos of massive close contact crowds at Bondi and Manly. And please understand that I was born and bred in Sydney. Chippendale slum, Marist Brothers, Bondi Surf Club. I love Sydney, but I am equally sad and angry at how the place is governed at the moment.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

26th August 2021, 04:14 AM	#362
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,790	Originally Posted by lionking I hope you are right, but I expect videos of massive close contact crowds at Bondi and Manly. The fake vaccination proof industry is going to be rampant. Quote: And please understand that I was born and bred in Sydney. Chippendale slum, Marist Brothers, Bondi Surf Club. I love Sydney, but I am equally sad and angry at how the place is governed at the moment. I was born in another state, but grew up, and have lived and worked in Sydney all my life. It's always had shocking governments, on both sides, for as long as I can remember. Probably stems and continues from the earliest colonial times. Doesn't mean I buy into that "Hate Melbourne!" lark either. Mexicans...
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

26th August 2021, 06:14 AM	#363
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	Well if you have not lived and breathed Melbourne air, you are dead to me…..
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

26th August 2021, 07:04 AM	#364
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,790	Originally Posted by lionking Well if you have not lived and breathed Melbourne air, you are dead to me….. Not only have I done that, I have worn black to work, and taken coffee in a laneway.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

27th August 2021, 07:35 PM	#365
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,361	Another 1,035 covid cases in NSW today. I think it's going to get a lot worse before it improves, and I don't think easing restrictions for the vaccinated are a good idea since we know delta still affects vaccinated people. The only good thing lately is that the National Cabinet decided to allow younger people to get vaccinated, so good on the state premiers for making that decision.
	__________________

27th August 2021, 10:26 PM	#366
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,327	The situation in NSW may not improve. Their numbers are going up by 40+% per week since mid-June. At this rate, NSW will hit 2,000 new cases per day before 20 September.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

28th August 2021, 02:44 AM	#367
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by Wildy Another 1,035 covid cases in NSW today. I think it's going to get a lot worse before it improves, and I don't think easing restrictions for the vaccinated are a good idea since we know delta still affects vaccinated people. I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated. I've been schooling some clowns on how quickly the vaccine wears off, and it's much better for people to be exposed within three months of vaccination, because by six months, the protection against delta is significantly reduced. Get a big wave out of the way and resume life as usual. It would be a bit messy for a while, but I really think the long-term result would be significantly positive compared to trying to hold the growth curve to less than parabolic.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

28th August 2021, 02:59 AM	#368
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	Originally Posted by The Atheist I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated. I've been schooling some clowns on how quickly the vaccine wears off, and it's much better for people to be exposed within three months of vaccination, because by six months, the protection against delta is significantly reduced. Get a big wave out of the way and resume life as usual. It would be a bit messy for a while, but I really think the long-term result would be significantly positive compared to trying to hold the growth curve to less than parabolic. Thank Christ our leaders will never listen to the likes of you. The vulnerable include children. Messy for a while? Before long there will be dozens of deaths a day in NSW, but not other, more responsible states. Do you seriously not understand the insanity of letting it rip with vaccination rates of around 30%? Life as usual means needless deaths. Try it in NZ by all means and report back. Otherwise keep your pompous and useless opinions to yourself.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

28th August 2021, 04:14 AM	#369
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,327	The alternative in NSW, and maybe other places, is lockdown for a long time, maybe forever.
	__________________ This signature is for rent.

28th August 2021, 05:05 AM	#370
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,361	Originally Posted by The Atheist I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated. Source?
	__________________

28th August 2021, 07:32 AM	#371
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,790	Originally Posted by The Atheist I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated. The "vulnerable" consists of all the unvaccinated people at any one point in time. So yeah. When they are all vaccinated, you can consider "letting COVID rip" then. Which is exactly the same as when we had nobody vaccinated, and also 20% vaccinated, and will be the same for 40%, 60% and 80% vaccinated. Because COVID has been "ripping" for nearly 2 years now, unabated. That's why we have a pandemic! It's been in all the papers. Sheesh, pay attention.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

28th August 2021, 12:25 PM	#372
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by lionking Thank Christ our leaders will never listen to the likes of you. They don't need to - Morrison is on the same page, and it looks very much like Gladys has arrived there as well. Chairman Dan and St Jacinda are going to get to that page shortly, and what they do will be fascinating to see. There aren't many options left when lockdowns don't continue the spread, and I see a few of our experts are arriving at the growing and obvious point that you can't stop delta, unless you're China and can confine everyone to their home. Quote: New Zealand has never appeared to have a back-up plan in case elimination doesn’t work out. I'm pretty sure Victoria has no Plan B, either. I give it one week from today and both leaderships will recognise they be ****. Originally Posted by lionking The vulnerable include children. OMFG!!11!! Won't someone think of the children???? I'm beginning to wonder whether the panic about kids is actually personal fear. I've asked repeatedly and still haven't had an answer. How many dead children is an acceptable number to die from Covid? Just on the subject of kids - how are those neonates who contracted Covid in the NICU doing? They all dead yet? They must be confidential, I guess, because they contracted Covid one month ago and I see Victoria's death total hasn't changed, so I'm picking that these most vulnerable babies, who only had a tenuous grasp on life, contracted Covid and survived. How many dead children is an acceptable number to die from Covid? (I ask again, because if you think the number can be zero, I can only conclude you have no grip on reality whatsoever.) Originally Posted by lionking Messy for a while? Before long there will be dozens of deaths a day in NSW, but not other, more responsible states. You must be able to see well from the height of that horse you're on. Yes, the mess will include very good business for undertakers for a couple of months. I'd be interested to hear what your alternatives are. Note, this is from your own government's official infectious disease partner: Quote: During the week the Doherty Institute in Australia – an infectious disease centre working with the Australian Government to plan its way out of Covid isolation – issued a statement on its modelling on opening Australia up. “In an average year of influenza, we would roughly have 600 deaths and 200,000 cases in Australia. Any death is a tragedy, but our health system can cope with this. In the Covid-19 modelling, opening up at 70 per cent vaccine coverage of the adult population with partial public health measures, we predict 385,983 symptomatic cases and 1457 deaths over six months. “With optimal public health measures [and no lockdowns], this can be significantly reduced to 2737 infections and 13 deaths.” Originally Posted by lionking Do you seriously not understand the insanity of letting it rip with vaccination rates of around 30%? Mate, I've been on Covid since Day One. I know exactly what will happen. The problem is, I'm almost convinced there isn't any other choice. As above, feel free to explain what you think can be done. And if you want to stay shut forever, ignoring the known affect lockdowns are having on poverty and education, then I'll have no choice but to believe your problem is fear of the disease itself. Originally Posted by lionking** Life as usual means needless deaths. Try it in NZ by all means and report back. Otherwise keep your pompous and useless opinions to yourself. I don't think or recommend it's life as usual. And I hope both our governments figure it out: until you hit 70% vaccination rates, cut the chance of super-spreader events by keeping venues shut, wear masks at all times at work and shopping, and hold distancing rules. Which is exactly what your experts are now saying.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

28th August 2021, 12:33 PM	#373
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by Wildy Source? Depends what you want a source for. The important threads to join together are as follows: 1 Vaccine efficacy against delta wanes quite quickly, and wanes fastest in the oldest. When you start by vaccinating the most-vulnerable groups, they will be hardest hit the longer opening is delayed. 2 Delta is more infectious, and stopping it is either incredibly difficult, or impossible. Taiwan, Aussie and NZ are all employing elimination strategies, and Aussie & NZ are failing miserably. Taiwan has got infections down to single digits with months of lockdown, but since there are still cases, it will break out again. 3 Masks and other measures still slow the spread. 4 Vaccine rates of >70% appear to be the magic number, according to UK's trends.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

28th August 2021, 12:35 PM	#374
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander The "vulnerable" consists of all the unvaccinated people at any one point in time. So yeah. When they are all vaccinated, you can consider "letting COVID rip" then. A vote for "shut down forever". Yeah, destroy children's most important thing in life, send people in poverty into hunger. But I hate children.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

28th August 2021, 06:08 PM	#375
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	Originally Posted by The Atheist A vote for "shut down forever". ********. Start opening up when 70% vaccinated target is reached. I think over 80% will eventually be vaccinated here with massive numbers of young people lining up.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

28th August 2021, 06:38 PM	#376
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	1200 in NSW today. On the way to 10,000. The health system will break down. I would just like Gladys to admit fault for not acting sooner. She won’t.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

28th August 2021, 06:53 PM	#377
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,021	Originally Posted by The Atheist I actually think the latest science totally supports the idea of letting Covid go, as soon as the vulnerable have been vaccinated. I've been schooling some clowns on how quickly the vaccine wears off, and it's much better for people to be exposed within three months of vaccination, because by six months, the protection against delta is significantly reduced. Get a big wave out of the way and resume life as usual. It would be a bit messy for a while, but I really think the long-term result would be significantly positive compared to trying to hold the growth curve to less than parabolic. That seems to be the policy adopted in the UK and some other European countries. Although new cases continue to soar, hospitalizations and deaths are way down thanks to their high vaccination rate. It may be that we will be forced ot live this way with Covid for a long time we will need a high vaccination rate (at least 80% among all age groups) before we can risk "letting er rip".
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th August 2021, 07:25 PM	#378
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by psionl0 That seems to be the policy adopted in the UK and some other European countries. Although new cases continue to soar, hospitalizations and deaths are way down thanks to their high vaccination rate. I think it's actually more complicated than that. Spain, France and Italy all had massive outbreaks with unknown, but very large, numbers of people having caught Covid, which also provides some protection against dying from it. Those countries are all at 60% or more fully vaccinated and infections are going down despite appearing to be fully open. Originally Posted by psionl0 It may be that we will be forced ot live this way with Covid for a long time we will need a high vaccination rate (at least 80% among all age groups) before we can risk "letting er rip". Is the vaccine approved for children in Aussie yet? We've just started allowing 12+ over here.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

28th August 2021, 09:16 PM	#379
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,453	Originally Posted by The Atheist Is the vaccine approved for children in Aussie yet? We've just started allowing 12+ over here. "Vaccination against COVID-19 is recommended for all individuals from 12 years of age, extending the current recommendation for those aged 16 years and older." - ATAGI, two days ago. https://www.health.gov.au/news/atagi...s-in-australia
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

28th August 2021, 09:38 PM	#380
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,021	Originally Posted by The Atheist Those countries are all at 60% or more fully vaccinated and infections are going down despite appearing to be fully open. Not according to the stats I have seen. In the UK the daily rate of new infections is above 30K which is at least as high as it has ever been.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th August 2021, 11:04 PM	#381
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,422	Do you mob hear a difference between “freedom” and “freedoms?” The latter seems to be be getting a fair run these days. Just heard Gladys use it and the protesters do too.
	Last edited by Sideroxylon; 28th August 2021 at 11:14 PM.

29th August 2021, 12:48 AM	#382
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by psionl0 Not according to the stats I have seen. In the UK the daily rate of new infections is above 30K which is at least as high as it has ever been. I specifically stated: "Spain, France and Italy" Last time I checked, those countries are not part of UK, and UK isn't even a member of the EU any more. I made no comment on UK. In the case of UK, they have a high positive rate and a death rate slightly above that of seasonal influenza, so I don't see too many negatives there, either. Hospitals aren't overflowing, crematoria aren't working overtime.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

29th August 2021, 01:07 AM	#383
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Do you mob hear a difference between “freedom” and “freedoms?” The latter seems to be be getting a fair run these days. Just heard Gladys use it and the protesters do too. The other difference with Gladys and co is that they are now referring to people dying “with covid” rather than “from covid”. Neatly placing the blame on the poor victims rather than her unforgivable delay in implement the inadequate “mockdown”. She also makes reference to those who die without vaccinations. Scum.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

29th August 2021, 02:29 AM	#384
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,021	Originally Posted by The Atheist In the case of UK, they have a high positive rate and a death rate slightly above that of seasonal influenza, so I don't see too many negatives there, either. Hospitals aren't overflowing, crematoria aren't working overtime. That's what I'm getting at. Barring a more effective vaccine or a cure, this may be the best that we can hope for. Keeping a covid outbreak away seems to be getting more difficult as time passes.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

29th August 2021, 02:46 AM	#385
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,422	Originally Posted by lionking The other difference with Gladys and co is that they are now referring to people dying “with covid” rather than “from covid”. Neatly placing the blame on the poor victims rather than her unforgivable delay in implement the inadequate “mockdown”. She also makes reference to those who die without vaccinations. Scum. But use as a countable noun? Gladys could just talk about our “freedom.” Reminds me of a certain country that has a Bill of Rights that references specific freedoms. Smacks of an Americanisation of our politics.

29th August 2021, 02:48 AM	#386
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by lionking The other difference with Gladys and co is that they are now referring to people dying “with covid” rather than “from covid”. It's a reasonable distinction in many cases, especially the seriously aged and infirm. If someone in a hospice with three weeks to live catches Covid and croaks, it's hardly one to put in deaths from Covid. Like the 90+ vaccinated bloke who died in Sydney - he was sicker than a parrot to start with, being fed through a tube. Originally Posted by lionking She also makes reference to those who die without vaccinations. Scum. I'd see that as a positive. It might encourage some of the hesitant to get a jab. Originally Posted by psionl0 That's what I'm getting at. Barring a more effective vaccine or a cure, this may be the best that we can hope for. Keeping a covid outbreak away seems to be getting more difficult as time passes. Ah, another one beginning to see the light. I have seen nothing to encourage me to believe delta can be stopped.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

29th August 2021, 02:59 AM	#387
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,422	Originally Posted by The Atheist It's a reasonable distinction in many cases, especially the seriously aged and infirm. If someone in a hospice with three weeks to live catches Covid and croaks, it's hardly one to put in deaths from Covid. Like the 90+ vaccinated bloke who died in Sydney - he was sicker than a parrot to start with, being fed through a tube. I'd see that as a positive. It might encourage some of the hesitant to get a jab. Ah, another one beginning to see the light. I have seen nothing to encourage me to believe delta can be stopped. Getting my second dose tomorrow. I expect I will be having another next year.

29th August 2021, 03:11 AM	#388
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	When we get to 80% and open up, I expect a surge to over 90%. Why? Because myGov records vaccinations and will link to checkin apps. As soon as people are denied access to pubs and cafes because they are not vaccinated, they will get it done. My sister-in-law, who lives in a low virus part of country Victoria, was not planning on getting a vaccination. When I explained she would have to forego her cafe catch ups she soon changed her mind.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

29th August 2021, 03:15 AM	#389
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,871	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon But use as a countable noun? Gladys could just talk about our “freedom.” Reminds me of a certain country that has a Bill of Rights that references specific freedoms. Smacks of an Americanisation of our politics. Oh yes I agree with that.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

29th August 2021, 11:04 AM	#390
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,885	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Getting my second dose tomorrow. I expect I will be having another next year. A word to the science on that - it seems that Janssen/J&J is outperforming other vaccines, and given the speed of decline of the mRNA vaccines, I think it's where I'll be going. Watch this space.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

29th August 2021, 09:26 PM	#391
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Tasmanian Premier Peter Gutwein admitted to hospital for undisclosed illness Quote: Tasmanian Premier Peter Gutwein has been admitted to hospital after becoming unwell at his office. In a statement, Deputy Premier Jeremy Rockliff said Mr Gutwein was "undergoing a number of tests which to date have not identified any medical issues of concern". Mr Gutwein would "take a few days to rest and recover", Mr Rockliff said. "During this time I will be acting as premier and arrangements are being made to cover his absence from Parliament this week," Mr Rockliff said. Mr Rockliff said an update on Mr Gutwein's "health and return to work will be provided later this week". First Dan's accident and now this. It's like the job is cursed.
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30th August 2021, 09:56 PM	#392
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,790	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Tasmanian Premier Peter Gutwein admitted to hospital for undisclosed illness First Dan's accident and now this. It's like the job is cursed. What's he got? Rug-burns?
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

31st August 2021, 12:34 AM	#393
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Scuttlebutt says that there might be an early election.
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31st August 2021, 12:44 AM	#394
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,453	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Scuttlebutt says that there might be an early election. Who's Scuttlebutt?
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

31st August 2021, 12:50 AM	#395
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,793	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Who's Scuttlebutt? Amy Remeikis from the Guardian. Quote: And yes Scott Morrison did say the election will be sooner than you think to the party room today, but I don’t think he means in the next month. I could be wrong – none of us know for sure, because we don’t have fixed terms, so the date is basically a sword of Damocles above all of our heads. Source
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