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Tags Russia issues , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war , Ukraine issues , vladimir putin , Volodymyr Zelenskiy

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Old 1st April 2022, 07:17 AM   #121
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The false flag claim makes no sense at all.
For a start, Russian forces in Ukraine are known to be short of fuel, so blowing up what limited fuel stocks they have left would be an extraordinary act of self-sabotage.
Then, what would be the point? What reaction would they hope to produce? It's not as if they still need an excuse to attack Ukraine: they've been doing that for over a month, and they surely can't be so deluded as to imagine this would provoke any sympathy internationally.
No, this is just the Ukraine showing the world how ballsy they are, and I applaud them for it.
Hear hear!
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:19 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The false flag claim makes no sense at all.
For a start, Russian forces in Ukraine are known to be short of fuel, so blowing up what limited fuel stocks they have left would be an extraordinary act of self-sabotage.
Then, what would be the point? What reaction would they hope to produce? It's not as if they still need an excuse to attack Ukraine: they've been doing that for over a month, and they surely can't be so deluded as to imagine this would provoke any sympathy internationally.
No, this is just the Ukraine showing the world how ballsy they are, and I applaud them for it.
So you aren't buying this line from TASS then



Quote:
Kremlin strikes back at Ukrainian attack on Belgorod fuel depot

"Clearly, itís not what could create conditions for further talks," Dmitry Peskov said, when asked if the incident could be viewed as an escalation of the conflict
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:20 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Seems from a number of sources that Russian forces are retreating completely from the Kyiv area. Ukrainian soldiers have been moving into those areas such as Irpin, Bucha, Hostomel. I assume the Chernobyl evacuation was also tied to that rather than a bout of radiation sickness.

Of course, this is great from the Ukrainian perspective, but some are cautioning that it could be a redeploying of troops from there to the Eastern front.

I know that some had been claiming that the Kyiv push was a feint BUT even if that is the case, surely there is little advantage to Russian troops as Ukraine can also reploy its forces and have more room to get supplies in.

P.S don't take anything I say too seriously. I know little about military affairs.
So you're saying that you're equivalent to a Russian general, then?
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:26 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So you're saying that you're equivalent to a Russian general, then?
With the exception that I'm still breathing.
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:28 AM   #125
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Is this the first sale of armoured vehicles to Ukraine since the onset of war?

Germany to sell tanks to Ukraine

Strictly speaking, they're not heavy tanks, but in reporting, any machine with treads must count. Even so, it's good to see more significant hardware than just personal equipment going there.
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:30 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Seems from a number of sources that Russian forces are retreating completely from the Kyiv area.
They're pulling back from the area around Kyiv alright. The area NW of Donbass will be the place to watch now.

Ukraine has (or had, at the beginning of all this) many of their best troops stationed there facing off against the separatist held areas. Lines of trenches and bunkers reminiscent of WWI. Ukraine calls those forces the "Joint Forces"

Since the beginning pro-Russian media sources have claimed that the Joint Forces were encircled ("kettled" in Russian parlance), or were about to be kettled (often accompanied with concern trolling suggesting that Ukraine would be better off withdrawing the Joint Forces before the big bad bear eats them up). They've been putting out pretty maps since about day three showing the Ukrainians in the area being completely cut off - fictional maps as it happens, but the objective truth has never been much of a concern to Russian propaganda efforts.

So now that really does seem to be the Russian plan. Push south from Izium towards - well, somewhere. Cut off and kettle up the Joint Forces - they're too difficult to defeat outright in all those trenches and bunkers that they spent eight years building and thinking how to defend. So just cut them off and starve them out. To that aim the Russian's finally managed to capture Izium.

I don't think it will work. Mariupol shows what happens when determined Ukrainians get surrounded. And, like Mariupol, this area has spent eight years preparing for just this sort of fight. And Russia's ability to advance far enough to complete the encirclement seems doubtful.

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Old 1st April 2022, 07:35 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Jimbo07 View Post
Is this the first sale of armoured vehicles to Ukraine since the onset of war?

Germany to sell tanks to Ukraine

Strictly speaking, they're not heavy tanks, but in reporting, any machine with treads must count. Even so, it's good to see more significant hardware than just personal equipment going there.

Nitpick: Germany isn't selling the tanks, Czechia is. But the tanks started out their lives in the German military, so Czechia needs German permission to make the sale, and Germany has granted that permission.

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Old 1st April 2022, 07:38 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Nitpick: Germany isn't selling the tanks, Czechia is. But the tanks started out their lives in the German military, so Czechia needs German permission to make the sale, and Germany has granted that permission.
Yes, I mis-stated that when I drew up my description for the link. I'll let it stand, as a historical record of my error (and isn't much worse than calling them tanks in the first place).
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:40 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Tanks have always been more vulnerable to attack by handheld and shoulder launched weapons in urban environments. That isnít new. The Russians are using old equipment paired with outdated tactics against new misses and new tactics.

What the javelin adds that previous infantry AT weapons lacked is the shoot-down attack profile and fire-and-forget tracking. Tank armor is (generally) thickest in front and thinnest on top. With previous infantry deployed AT weapons (primarily the Dragon and TOW variants) the gunner fired and then had to track the mussel all the way to the target, witch was almost always the front or flank. The TOW penetrated most all Soviet armor of the time, but the dragon could fail to destroy a tank hit in the front. The TOW was relatively fast and outranged all tanks, so the gunner was generally safe from return fire, but the dragon was out-ranged by all tanks and was SLOW. At max range, the gunner had to sit still and track for 10 seconds before the missile hit the tank, and the missile firing had a noticeable signature, making it relatively easy for an a,wet tank crew to see the launch and immediately return fire.

The Javelin solves both problems and tank defenses havenít yet countered. They will, eventually. Tank and AT weapons evolve. The balance shifts about once a generation.
I can't find the piece I read, but it talked about a big issue with the Russian tanks was that infantry vehicles were too far away or they were not getting out of the IFVs.

It talked about how important it was to train and drill contact drills and fire and maneuver when armor comes under fire.
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:47 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Jimbo07 View Post
Is this the first sale of armoured vehicles to Ukraine since the onset of war?

Germany to sell tanks to Ukraine

Strictly speaking, they're not heavy tanks, but in reporting, any machine with treads must count. Even so, it's good to see more significant hardware than just personal equipment going there.
I like the headline: "Germany approves delivery of combat tanks to Ukraine, defense ministry says". As opposed to the non-combat tanks you were probably assuming in this context.

ETA: Ninja'd by crescent
Also strictly speaking, Czech Republic is the one selling (maybe giving?) the tanks to Ukraine. For some reason Germany has a law that the export of any weapons originating in Germany has to be approved by Germany. And for some reason, this is binding on the Czech Republic.

These "tanks" are positively ancient Soviet-era armored personnel carriers. They're East German variants of a very common Soviet type. They were inherited by reunified Germany and sold to Sweden, which then sold them to the Czechs. Now the Czechs are transferring them to the Ukrainians, with German permission.

The Ukrainians probably still have variants of the type in service, so this equipment should coincide fairly well with their logistics and training.

Load up some anti-tank infantry in the back of one of these, drive around till you find the enemy, park behind a hill, dismount the troops, and Robert's your Russian mother's brother.
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:49 AM   #131
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Again, the Russians have claimed that they effectively destroyed the Ukrainian airforce. There's no better way to deny this than flying into Russia and blowing stuff up.
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Old 1st April 2022, 07:59 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Jimbo07 View Post
It's interesting. Have Russian air defences failed? Or, while it wasn't a false flag, did they allow it to happen? Or, was it just incompetence, but they're going to exploit it?
They flew at night and below radar. It's probable that the Russians were not expecting such an attack, so they probably didn't have short-range anti-air weapons active in the area.
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Old 1st April 2022, 08:01 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yes, I think there are audiences who may not have make up their mind, or more specifically would tend to be pro-Russia but who now may be wavering in the face of the truth coming out of Ukraine which is un-ignorable. These include:

[*]The Russian people who may be slowly coming to the conclusion that Russia may be "the bad guys" but who could fall back in line if Mother Russia were under attack
He could lie to the Russian people at any time and get the same effect. Which will be almost entirely irrelevant to Russia's needs and wants right now.

Quote:
[*]China, India and Brazil who instinctively feel that they should be a counterweight to "the Great Satan" but who cannot come out in favour of Russia in light of events of the last month
These nations are not stupid. They'll base their decisions on realpolitik, not transparent propaganda about totally understandable and legitimate military actions by Ukraine. They may cite such actions as their reason, but the would have made the same decision anyway, for the same real reasons.

Quote:
[*]Much of Africa
Totally irrelevant to Russia's needs and wants right now.

The strategic advantage to Ukraine disrupting Russia's supply lines far outweighs the thin gruel of propaganda you imagine Russia cooking up if they do.

ETA:
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Use WMD because Mother Russia is under attack from the drug-addled Nazis and NATO. : (
The little frowny face really sells the unseriousness of this idea.

Russia could make this claim, true or false, any time as an excuse to use WMDs.

Quote:
That it would have been impossible were it not for the connivance of NATO and that poor ickle Russia is now under attack from NATO. That may provide a fig-leaf of cover to enable China and India to provide military support for Russia in order to level the playing field (or more accurately to tip that field more decisively in Russia's favour).
False claims could easily accomplish the same result, if that result were actually likely. If China and India really wanted to provide military support they could easily come up with their own excuses. Or quietly ask Russia to cook up an excuse for them. Honestly if they wanted to provide military support they'd have found an excuse to do so already.

Who exactly would be the audience for China's pretext that Ukrainian strikes on Russian supply lines justifies Chinese military support of Russia? Whose good opinion would China be attempting to secure?

"Hey, China, why are you sending troops and equipment to support the Russian invasion of Ukraine?"

"Well, America, the Ukrainians have started shelling Russian civilians on Russian soil."

"You know that's faked-up propaganda shenanigans, right?"

"Yeah, but you don't know th- Oh. Uh. Prank call! Prank call!"
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Old 1st April 2022, 08:13 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also strictly speaking, Czech Republic is the one selling (maybe giving?) the tanks to Ukraine. For some reason Germany has a law that the export of any weapons originating in Germany has to be approved by Germany.
I suspect that's probably quite common for weapons exporting countries.

Quote:
And for some reason, this is binding on the Czech Republic.
I'm sure it's part of the purchasing contract. The Czechs might not be legally bound to it, but they would probably be unable to buy weapons from Germany in the future if they violated the contract.
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Old 1st April 2022, 08:14 AM   #135
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A gem from the Guardian:

Quote:
Russian forces are using a church north-west of Kyiv as a ďstaging pointĒ as part of their assault on the Ukrainian capital, a senior US official said.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity and without citing evidence, said the information was based on declassified intelligence.

Military personnel are situated both on the grounds of the church and the surrounding residential area.

The official said:

We believe the Russian military is using this staging point as part of its assault on Kyiv.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...08df8dc55630ba

Well thanks anonymous "senior US official", I'm grateful for the fact that I now know that they know that everyone has a vague idea of where they are currently positioned.

Hopefully they will give us more detailed information like this.
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Old 1st April 2022, 08:33 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
They flew at night and below radar. It's probable that the Russians were not expecting such an attack, so they probably didn't have short-range anti-air weapons active in the area.
This seems like one of those unforced "basic modern warfare" errors Russia's been making. Like "not destroying power and comms on day 1" and "letting your armor drive around without an infantry screen".

Putting good air defenses around your key positions is (supposed to be) a no-brainer. Putting good air defenses somewhere along or behind the front, between the enemy and your key positions in the rear, is (supposed to be) a no-brainer.

The Serbs were even able to catch a low-flying stealth bomber, once they got the hang of its attack patterns.
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Old 1st April 2022, 08:39 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
A gem from the Guardian:



https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...08df8dc55630ba

Well thanks anonymous "senior US official", I'm grateful for the fact that I now know that they know that everyone has a vague idea of where they are currently positioned.

Hopefully they will give us more detailed information like this.
There's probably some Russian intelligence officer on the phone with his agents in the west right now.

"Get me that US intel on our troop locations! We've been trying to find them for days!"
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Old 1st April 2022, 08:57 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems like one of those unforced "basic modern warfare" errors Russia's been making. Like "not destroying power and comms on day 1" and "letting your armor drive around without an infantry screen".

Putting good air defenses around your key positions is (supposed to be) a no-brainer. Putting good air defenses somewhere along or behind the front, between the enemy and your key positions in the rear, is (supposed to be) a no-brainer.

The Serbs were even able to catch a low-flying stealth bomber, once they got the hang of its attack patterns.
So... the Western narrative seems to be: Putin was misinformed by his immediate subordinates. "Russia" (Putin? His generals?) anticipated a quick invastion, where they would be well received. Still, they amassed around 150,000+ troops on the border, and used a second country. For these reasons, they somehow didn't fully mobilize before starting a war on their own border. We're supposed to believe that their air defences weren't expecting a counter attack, even though before the conflict, Putin held nuclear readiness exercises. The message was, we're ready for any contingency (but apparently, really aren't?).

At any point, didn't Putin ask, amidst all the supposedly rosy predictions, "What's our contingency?" Russian air defences may not need to be on special alert near Alaska, but why not near Ukraine?
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Old 1st April 2022, 08:58 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's probably some Russian intelligence officer on the phone with his agents in the west right now.

"Get me that US intel on our troop locations! We've been trying to find them for days!"
Nah, I only rate that about 10% chance. The intelligence officer is unlikely to be allowed to look at western media.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:02 AM   #140
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The information war continues.

Russia threatens Wikipedia with a fine if it doesn't remove its page about the war (npr.org)
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Communications regulator Roskomnadzor announced on Thursday that it had asked the online encyclopedia to remove a page containing "unreliable socially significant materials, as well as other prohibited information" about its operations in Ukraine. It accused the site of intentionally misinforming Russian users.

It said it will fine Wikipedia up to 4 million rubles, or nearly $47,000, for failing to remove those materials, which are illegal under Russian law.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:12 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Tanks have always been more vulnerable to attack by handheld and shoulder launched weapons in urban environments. That isnít new. The Russians are using old equipment paired with outdated tactics against new misses and new tactics.

What the javelin adds that previous infantry AT weapons lacked is the shoot-down attack profile and fire-and-forget tracking. Tank armor is (generally) thickest in front and thinnest on top. With previous infantry deployed AT weapons (primarily the Dragon and TOW variants) the gunner fired and then had to track the mussel all the way to the target, witch was almost always the front or flank. The TOW penetrated most all Soviet armor of the time, but the dragon could fail to destroy a tank hit in the front. The TOW was relatively fast and outranged all tanks, so the gunner was generally safe from return fire, but the dragon was out-ranged by all tanks and was SLOW. At max range, the gunner had to sit still and track for 10 seconds before the missile hit the tank, and the missile firing had a noticeable signature, making it relatively easy for an a,wet tank crew to see the launch and immediately return fire.

The Javelin solves both problems and tank defenses havenít yet countered. They will, eventually. Tank and AT weapons evolve. The balance shifts about once a generation.
To poke at this a bit further, while Tank and AT weapons evolving just keeps happening, I suspect that what said generals were referring to something rather different. In particular, the shifting nature of military engagements, especially the ones that the US has actually been involved in. Tanks just don't fit the operational needs of the US nigh ever these days. That's not to say that they wouldn't be highly useful in appropriate situations, just that we haven't been engaging in those situations.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:12 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't. I have watched multiple US Generals say the same thing. I'm not saying the tank is dead. But that they are expensive weapons platforms that can and are being neutralized by far less expensive portable weapons. Specifically in an urban environment tanks are vulnerable to such weapons.
Funny, for an obsolete weapons system every major power still is building tanks.
You WANT to believe they are obsolete because you want to spend less on the military, no matter how much it hurts US Military power. Count me out on that one.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:18 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not sure that Ukraine would try to do that.

It's one thing to defend oneself in one's own country, it's an entirely different thing to strike in your opponent's country. They can then portray you as the aggressor regardless of "who started it".

That said, if you can persuade people in that country to work on your behalf - as has been reported w.r.t. Belarus rail workers who have disrupted Russian supply lines - then you can get the same benefits without the risks.
God, you know nothing about military strategy.
By your philosophy the US should not have conducted offesnive actions after Pearl Harbor.
And the UK should not have condcuted offensive warfare against Germany, either.
COme on guy, you should know better then that.
Ukraine would be 100% within it rights attacking Russian military tactics. on it;s own soil if that is what happened
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:20 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Guess it's time for me to make another donation to Wikipedia. If Jimbo Wales started a fundraising drive to pay off this fine, he'd probably raise ten times the needed amount in a couple hours.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:21 AM   #145
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Funny, for an obsolete weapons system every major power still is building tanks.
You WANT to believe they are obsolete because you want to spend less on the military, no matter how much it hurts US Military power. Count me out on that one.
a lot of defense expenditure is explained by inertia.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:23 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Guess it's time for me to make another donation to Wikipedia. If Jimbo Wales started a fundraising drive to pay off this fine, he'd probably raise ten times the needed amount in a couple hours.

You're assuming that Russia has some means of compelling payment.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:26 AM   #147
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Tanks are like fortresses of old: heavily fortified positions that dominate the region around them. They influence the flow of battle and the control of the battlefield. They create difficulties for the enemy and are very costly to neutralize, but they are not invincible.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:26 AM   #148
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The idea it was somehow wrong for Ukraine to strike Military targets within Russia is so silly I don't know where to begin in refuting it.
And anybody who has not decided about who is on the right in this war is either pro Putin or a fool,frankly.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:27 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
You're assuming that Russia has some means of compelling payment.
They don't and this would be a good time for Wikipeida to gain some badly needed creditiblity by tellling Putin to go to hell; do not pass go, do not pay 200 Dollars.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:28 AM   #150
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Here's a video of the Ukrainian helicopters after their attack run, showing how low they were flying.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFoota...ying_low_over/
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:29 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
You're assuming that Russia has some means of compelling payment.
I could be assuming that, but it's not really relevant. I'd donate to wikipedia anyway, and make an extra donation just out of sympathy for the annoyance.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:33 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
a lot of defense expenditure is explained by inertia.
So is Social Spending. And let's talk about the spcifics if Tanks are obsolete or not.
One of the reasons I am not a "Progressive" is their blind oppostion ot just about any military spending. Of course we should be careful about military spending, and of course the Military...like every goverment department..often wastes money. But I fins advocating a 50% cut in Military spending..which several here have advocating..without detailing exactly how that can be done without badly hurting the effectivenes of the US Military to say more about the mentality of the guy advocating it then the realties of military spending.
Not going to happen anyway. I see very few in either party advocating that drastic a cut.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:34 AM   #153
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:37 AM   #154
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"These new anti-tank missiles are pretty effective, and there's not much more armor we can load onto tanks. Tanks are now obsolete!"

"Nah. We'll just have the tanks automatically shoot down the missiles before they hit."

"But tanks are obsolete, I said!"
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:55 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
God, you know nothing about military strategy.
By your philosophy the US should not have conducted offesnive actions after Pearl Harbor.
And the UK should not have condcuted offensive warfare against Germany, either.
COme on guy, you should know better then that.
Ukraine would be 100% within it rights attacking Russian military tactics. on it;s own soil if that is what happened
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The idea it was somehow wrong for Ukraine to strike Military targets within Russia is so silly I don't know where to begin in refuting it.
And anybody who has not decided about who is on the right in this war is either pro Putin or a fool,frankly.
Putin is perfectly able to claim victimhood anyway regardless. As far as I can tell, Russia blames any attack on civilians as being performed by Syrian Rebels Ukraine

But I see that Ukraine has Schrodinger's airforce - simultaneously destroyed and able to escalate the war by attacking unjustified targets like [checks notes] fuel and munitions depots directly for use in the invasion.
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Old 1st April 2022, 09:58 AM   #156
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Army folks correct me: I thought the whole point of gun stabilization was to fire on the move. This wasn't universal in WWII tanks. In the modern era, I thought the idea was to keep tanks moving and shooting.

It's like armchair admirals and the navy. It's said that aircraft carriers are obsolete due to Chinese and Russian hypersonic missiles, drones, cyber attacks, etc. But the trick is, a carrier is a mobile airbase. Land bases don'thave the same advantage. Keep moving.
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Old 1st April 2022, 10:03 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So is Social Spending. And let's talk about the spcifics if Tanks are obsolete or not.
One of the reasons I am not a "Progressive" is their blind oppostion ot just about any military spending. Of course we should be careful about military spending, and of course the Military...like every goverment department..often wastes money. But I fins advocating a 50% cut in Military spending..which several here have advocating..without detailing exactly how that can be done without badly hurting the effectivenes of the US Military to say more about the mentality of the guy advocating it then the realties of military spending.
Not going to happen anyway. I see very few in either party advocating that drastic a cut.
True, not going to happen.
But some transparency when it comes to defense spending would not be too much to ask for.
Another factor is the number of qualified personnel the Armed Forces are able to recruit and retain: there is no point in upholding the doctrine of "fight two major conflicts simultaneously" if we don't have the bodies to do so. The number of tours the average trooper had to do in recent years is bonkers.
The US military has to "rightsize" to what it can actually, honestly do, not what politicians want it to be able to do.
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Old 1st April 2022, 10:12 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Funny, for an obsolete weapons system every major power still is building tanks.
So is Russia. Maybe 20 T14s by the end of 2021

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Tanks are like fortresses of old: heavily fortified positions that dominate the region around them. They influence the flow of battle and the control of the battlefield. They create difficulties for the enemy and are very costly to neutralize, but they are not invincible.
Indeed, like virtually any effective weapons system, they reduce the options available. The French knights defeated the English Longbow in many encounters in the Hundred Years War. They also famously lost in several.



Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"These new anti-tank missiles are pretty effective, and there's not much more armor we can load onto tanks. Tanks are now obsolete!"

"Nah. We'll just have the tanks automatically shoot down the missiles before they hit."

"But tanks are obsolete, I said!"
The first part could have been said in virtually any intense conflict from 1973. But they were still used successfully after changes in tactics.


And the second part. It is quite possible that the new tanks with their active defences will be most vulnerable to large high-velocity tank guns. At least until their active defences are somehow neutralised. So again, you end up with modified tactics.
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Old 1st April 2022, 10:20 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So is Russia. Maybe 20 T14s by the end of 2021



Indeed, like virtually any effective weapons system, they reduce the options available. The French knights defeated the English Longbow in many encounters in the Hundred Years War. They also famously lost in several.





The first part could have been said in virtually any intense conflict from 1973. But they were still used successfully after changes in tactics.


And the second part. It is quite possible that the new tanks with their active defences will be most vulnerable to large high-velocity tank guns. At least until their active defences are somehow neutralised. So again, you end up with modified tactics.
Ultimately what keeps tanks from being obsolete is the high cost of participation at that level.

Sure, in theory a true peer, with all the same tech and all the same logistical investment and all the same level of training and professionalism could make your tanks very limited in value on the battlefield. And vice-versa!

But no two armies are ever actually that equally matched. Russia and Ukraine have similar economies, similar amounts of corruption, similar doctrines, and similar tech levels. But one side is performing much better, and the other much worse, than expected. Not because tanks are obsolete, but because when both sides have the same tech level, the side with the better troops and better logistics prevails.

"Tanks are obsolete!" made a lot more sense back when we still thought the Russians were near-peers to modern tank-having armies, in terms of tech, logistics, and troop quality. But now, in March 2022, it's pretty obvious that tanks are still quite valuable against paper tiger modern armies.
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Old 1st April 2022, 10:21 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So is Social Spending. And let's talk about the spcifics if Tanks are obsolete or not.
One of the reasons I am not a "Progressive" is their blind oppostion ot just about any military spending.
Defence spending is one of the areas where my opinions seem to diverge somewhat from my more progressive family and friends. I'm often critical of the military-industrial complex, but it has more to do with not delivering value for money to serving members.
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