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Tags Russia issues , Russia-Ukraine relations , Russia-Ukraine war , Ukraine issues , vladimir putin , Volodymyr Zelenskiy

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Old 14th April 2022, 11:48 AM   #1601
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Putin is pretty much following Dugin's..the right wing Russian ideologues... playbook to the letter including causing as much disruption within western countries by supporting radical elements.
Let us be frank:Putin's Russia is out enemy; and PUtin is intent not just on rebuilding the Soviet Union but on suceeding where it failed:Total Domination of the whole Eurasia continent.
Waht is interesting is that Dugin recommends a temporary allicne with China against the West ,but never forgetting that once the West is taken care of, it will be China's turn.
I am sure CHina knows this which means both sided know one will stab the other in the back.
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Old 14th April 2022, 11:48 AM   #1602
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Russian investigators say two low-flying military helicopters equipped with heavy arms attacked the town of Klimovo, injuring seven people including a child and damaging six houses.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

According to the governor of Russia's Belgorod region, the village of Spodaryushino was shelled by Ukraine, prompting its evacuation along with a neighbouring village.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Reports of the attacks came after Moscow announced it would bomb targets in Kyiv and other parts of Ukraine if Ukrainian forces continued to attack its territory.
And how would that be different from now? Not that I expect you (or anyone else sane) try to explain that.


But Western intelligence, which has been very accurate so-far, has claimed that Putin has been planning further false-flag operations within Russia. Mainly for internal consumption.
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Old 14th April 2022, 11:49 AM   #1603
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Putin is pretty much following Dugin's..the right wing Russian ideologues... playbook to the letter including causing as much disruption within western countries by supporting radical elements.
Let us be frank:Putin's Russia is out enemy; and PUtin is intent not just on rebuilding the Soviet Union but on suceeding where it failed:Total Domination of the whole Eurasia continent.
Waht is interesting is that Dugin recommends a temporary allicne with China against the West ,but never forgetting that once the West is taken care of, it will be China's turn.
I am sure CHina knows this which means both sided know one will stab the other in the back.
Even Putin can't think he'd be able to do anything beyond annoy China?
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Old 14th April 2022, 11:50 AM   #1604
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The way the Russian auto-loaders work is by keeping the rounds in the turret itself, instead of behind a bulkhead in a separate compartment. This allows a greater rate of fire and less crew stress (supposedly) but when the turret gets compromised the entire mag tends to blow the turret off.
Safety for the sailors has never been a high priority with the Russian Navy.
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Old 14th April 2022, 11:52 AM   #1605
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As in the beginning of Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising, the false flag is in the play book of the old KGB, and Putin is old KGB.

Expect some sort of false flag that Putin will claim Ukraine was about to (or has) << INSERT SOME HORRIBLE THING HERE LIKE LAUNCHING CHEMICAL WEAPONS AT A RUSSIAN BORDER TOWN>> Putin could easily chemically attack one of his own towns to make this happen.

This would give him a reason to use nukes.
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Old 14th April 2022, 11:53 AM   #1606
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Even Putin can't think he'd be able to do anything beyond annoy China?
A. Putin is delusional.
B,Dugin reason for "The West First" is Russia can use all the stregth it will gain from the domination of the West to use against China.
I think that is batcrap crazy, but never undersetimate the power of Political ideologies. Religion has nothing on them when it comes to getting people to believe batcrap crazy stuff by emotional appeals.
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Old 14th April 2022, 11:54 AM   #1607
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I had tyo crack up on a coworkers remark on the Moskva;

"Never would have happend had Sean Connory been in command".
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:07 PM   #1608
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I had tyo crack up on a coworkers remark on the Moskva;

"Never would have happend had Sean Connory been in command".
To be honest, he's currently in as good physical condition as quite a few Russian commanders in this special operation
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:09 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I had tyo crack up on a coworkers remark on the Moskva;

"Never would have happend had Sean Connory been in command".
On the other hand, if Sean Bean had been in command...
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:10 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let us be frank:Putin's Russia is out enemy;.
to paraphrase Ali, I ain't got no quarrel with them Russians.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:12 PM   #1611
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Which is just as well. Nobody sane asks you to hate an ethnic group. Kinda went out of fashion in the West after WW2 or so.

However, the purpose of any war is basically to stop the enemy from being able to wage war. You know, to fight back. That's how you win, really. If an embargo does the job, hey, let's do it.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:21 PM   #1612
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
On the other hand, if Sean Bean had been in command...
Or Harrison Ford .....who starred in that movie a bout "The Kursk".
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:22 PM   #1613
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
to paraphrase Ali, I ain't got no quarrel with them Russians.
I, on the other hand, do have a quarrel with genocidal regimes who use nerve agents to kill innocent civilians in English cathedral cities.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:23 PM   #1614
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Reports that the commander of the Black Sea Fleet has been removed from command.
He will be lucky if Putin does not have him shot "to encourage the others".
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:26 PM   #1615
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
to paraphrase Ali, I ain't got no quarrel with them Russians.
You probably would have had no quarrel with Japan after Pearl Harbor or Nazi Germany either.
But thanks for reminded me why my youthful flirtatin with Libertaraism was so short lived.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:28 PM   #1616
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Reports that the commander of the Black Sea Fleet has been removed from command.
He will be lucky if Putin does not have him shot "to encourage the others".
Good. What Russia needs is lots of military and intelligence commanders wondering whether when Putin is going to purge them, and what they can do to make themselves safe.

It's one reason why I think Putin has a nontrivial chance of being deposed as a consequence of this invasion. Still more likely than not to survive, but less of a certainty than mid February, for example.

ETA:
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:30 PM   #1617
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Reports that the commander of the Black Sea Fleet has been removed from command.
He will be lucky if Putin does not have him shot "to encourage the others".
And Shoigu is reported to be in the hospital after having a massive heart attack.

Shoigu Has Heart Attack, 20 Defense Ministry Generals Arrested In Russia - Nevzlin

Stalin was in his 50's when he started his big purge. Putin is behind the curve.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:32 PM   #1618
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
And Shoigu is reported to be in the hospital after having a massive heart attack.

Shoigu Has Heart Attack, 20 Defense Ministry Generals Arrested In Russia - Nevzlin

Stalin was in his 50's when he started his big purge. Putin is behind the curve.

See my ETA in the post above yours
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:41 PM   #1619
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The notion that Putin wants the Soviet Union back is unsupported by the available evidence. He (and many Russians btw) don't see Ukraine and Belarus in particular as "real" countries (whatever that means). And he doesn't want pro-NATO or pro-EU countries on Russia's borders. That's not the same as wanting the Soviet Union back - which by the way, Putin has repeatedly denounced for its Communism and for the fact that Lenin "created" Ukraine by separating it and other regions of the Russian Empire into different republics, laying the groundwork for nationalism within those republics and then their independence after the USSR collapsed.

This is about absolute Russian sovereignty within what Putin and his allies see as rightly Russian territory or at the very least, Russia's "sphere of influence" just beyond its borders. And yes, the West, NATO, and the US in particular are convenient scapegoats for Russia. That's both genuinely felt grievance and a form of public relations/propaganda on the domestic front first and foremost, but also on the global front as well in terms of Russia's political influence operations.

But conquering all of Eurasia? Hardly. They couldn't do that even if they wanted to. And none of this should be taken as justification for what Russia has been doing and continues to do.

Last edited by Allen773; 14th April 2022 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:43 PM   #1620
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
The notion that Putin wants the Soviet Union back is unsupported by the available evidence. He (and many Russians btw) don't see Ukraine and Belarus in particular as "real" countries (whatever that means). And he doesn't want pro-NATO or pro-EU countries on Russia's borders. That's not the same as wanting the Soviet Union back - which by the way, Putin has repeatedly denounced for its Communism and for the fact that Lenin "created" Ukraine by separating it and other regions of the Russian Empire into different republics, laying the groundwork for nationalism within those republics and then their independence after the USSR collapsed.

This is about absolute Russian sovereignty within what Putin and his allies see as rightly Russian territory or at the very least, Russia's "sphere of influence" just beyond its borders. And yes, the West, NATO, and the US in particular are convenient scapegoats for Russia. That's both genuinely felt grievance and a form of public relations/propaganda on the domestic front first and foremost, but also on the global front as well in terms of Russia's political influence operations.

But conquering all of Eurasia? Hardly. They couldn't do that even if they wanted to.


-
I don't think anyone in this thread doubts the highlighted.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:44 PM   #1621
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
And Shoigu is reported to be in the hospital after having a massive heart attack.

Shoigu Has Heart Attack, 20 Defense Ministry Generals Arrested In Russia - Nevzlin

Stalin was in his 50's when he started his big purge. Putin is behind the curve.
Putin is nowhere near as murderous or as shrewdly Machiavellian as Stalin. Then again, few people are.

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Old 14th April 2022, 12:45 PM   #1622
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I don't think anyone in this thread doubts the highlighted.
dubalb alleged that this was Putin's intention in the post at the top of this page of the thread.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:49 PM   #1623
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That was the standrad doctrine.
Problem was in the first year of the war it was really hard to properly corrdinate the strikes, so that the dive bombers and torpedo planes often hit the carriers alone. Midway was the most notorious example, with the slaughter of the US Tropedo squadrons when they went in alone.
It got much better later in the war.
Also later in the war better aircraft were available.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:50 PM   #1624
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
dubalb alleged that this was Putin's intention in the post at the top of this page of the thread.
Which is a different thing.

Putin also apparently thought he'd be able to capture Kyiv and install a puppet regime within a few days.

You could see the expressions of those around him *in the very press conference that Putin was staging* looking as though it was a very bad idea.

I suspect nobody had dared to tell Putin bad news for a long time before this "special operation"
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:51 PM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Normally I would agree with you. But based on the performance of other parts of this military operation, i'm leaning towards maintenance negligence.

Normally, on a ship this size, the fire fighting systems would handle a hit from a single missile, however, if tanks, hoses, gaskets are not properly maintained, the firefighting gases, and delivery systems may not be working. (Similar to the poor tires on the APC's and trucks) Routine maintenance is huge in fire fighting systems, and an unchecked fire on a ship could lead to secondary explosions in an ammunition locker or something like that.

Of course there is always the chance that the missile just hit the perfect spot, and it was game over.

This is really great news for the west if Russia's highest performing warships are not able to knock down a single incoming missile.
It was more than just a fire. Something exploded, that indicates a magazine. If it wasn't hit but was caused by the fire then it is just complete incompetence and a complete lack of training. A fire in a ship should never set off a magazine. There are provisions to flood a magazine very quickly just in case there is any kind of fire.
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Old 14th April 2022, 12:55 PM   #1626
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
You can get similar things happening in ships. Eg the HMS Indomitable exploding and sinking in 90 seconds at the battle of Jutland.
No, that was different. For obvious reasons ship ammunition magazines can't be vented to the outside in the same way as the ammunition storage on a tank can. There is no 'safe path' for an explosion to follow.
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:00 PM   #1627
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The Finland NATO thing
https://youtu.be/u_eRUZS1Jcw
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:00 PM   #1628
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Which is a different thing.

Putin also apparently thought he'd be able to capture Kyiv and install a puppet regime within a few days.

You could see the expressions of those around him *in the very press conference that Putin was staging* looking as though it was a very bad idea.

I suspect nobody had dared to tell Putin bad news for a long time before this "special operation"
Ukraine is not "the whole Eurasian continent." I suspect even the increasingly isolated and mad Supreme Leader in Moscow knows that he cannot possibly dominate everything from the Atlantic and Pacific to the Indian Ocean.

As you yourself noted, he's struggling in Ukraine. If Putin can't easily bend a country with so many historic and cultural ties to Russia on its own borders to his will, then the notion that he could expand significantly more in military terms is frankly laughable. Yes, he's propping up Assad in Syria -- after both Iran and vicious infighting among the rebels gave Russia a big head start prior to 2015. Forgive me for not being impressed.

The Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union even when the latter was in its decline stage.
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:03 PM   #1629
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
On the other hand, if Sean Bean had been in command...
Are we sure the Russians don't have Mr Bean in command?
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:09 PM   #1630
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
The notion that Putin wants the Soviet Union back is unsupported by the available evidence. He (and many Russians btw) don't see Ukraine and Belarus in particular as "real" countries (whatever that means). And he doesn't want pro-NATO or pro-EU countries on Russia's borders. That's not the same as wanting the Soviet Union back - which by the way, Putin has repeatedly denounced for its Communism and for the fact that Lenin "created" Ukraine by separating it and other regions of the Russian Empire into different republics, laying the groundwork for nationalism within those republics and then their independence after the USSR collapsed.

This is about absolute Russian sovereignty within what Putin and his allies see as rightly Russian territory or at the very least, Russia's "sphere of influence" just beyond its borders. And yes, the West, NATO, and the US in particular are convenient scapegoats for Russia. That's both genuinely felt grievance and a form of public relations/propaganda on the domestic front first and foremost, but also on the global front as well in terms of Russia's political influence operations.
So he's just trying to restore the sphere of influence the Soviet union had, not trying to restore the Soviet Union? Sorry, I can't see any meaningful distinction here.
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:10 PM   #1631
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Putin's Russia can competently conduct espionage, cyber attacks, assassinations, political influence operations (which have had diminishing returns for him btw, and have utterly failed to gain him international support for his war against Ukraine aside from the usual suspects like Iran, Syria, Cuba, etc and at most, neutrality from some weaker countries in the developing world), and not much else.

I suppose nuclear blackmail is the closest thing he has to a trump card, along with the last refuge of dictators everywhere: the threat of violent instability within Russia or someone worse coming after him if or when he's deposed. It's not like there's a succession plan -- at least, that we know of...

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Old 14th April 2022, 01:12 PM   #1632
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So he's just trying to restore the sphere of influence the Soviet union had, not trying to restore the Soviet Union? Sorry, I can't see any meaningful distinction here.
The Soviet Union's sphere of influence was global - it was truly a superpower. Modern Russia's is regional, though yes in an ideal world for Putin he would like Russia to be a superpower on par with the US and China. But let's not give credence to those kinds of delusions.

Last edited by Allen773; 14th April 2022 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:19 PM   #1633
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https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...Zy5v2IPkHu2fmQ

Looks like Russia has admitted the Moskva has sunk
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:24 PM   #1634
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Anybody think if PUtin thinks he has won in Ukraine he will stop there?
Moldova would be the next, and obvious, target. But after that, where would Putin invade? Finland and Sweden could (should) be in NATO by the time his army rebuilds.
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:34 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...Zy5v2IPkHu2fmQ

Looks like Russia has admitted the Moskva has sunk


Special Edition Stamp released in advance today by Zelenskyy.

Version II?

I'm not laughing. You are.
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Old 14th April 2022, 01:39 PM   #1636
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All I know is that playing post-apocalytic shooting games is going to be a lot less entertaining after seeing so much of the real thing from Ukraine. I suppose future game developers are going to have a field day with all the source material, though. Frankly, I'm kind of amazed at how much the real thing looks like the artifice.
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Old 14th April 2022, 02:06 PM   #1637
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status...Zy5v2IPkHu2fmQ

Looks like Russia has admitted the Moskva has sunk
It's funny that they would rather say their ships are so badly maintained and run that they could just blow up by themselves at any time rather than admit it was struck by the enemy.

Honestly, I'll take either one.
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Old 14th April 2022, 02:08 PM   #1638
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One of the odd Russian traits that I've noticed is that they would rather claim massive incompetence than admit to any level of enemy success or of dishonesty on their own part.

I remember during the conflict in 2014 Ukraine captured about a dozen Russian paratroopers in Ukraine about 10 km from the border with Russia. Rather than admit that there were actual Russian soldiers in Donbass, Russia claimed they had gotten lost.

The thing is, even at a very fast hiking pace, it would still have taken those soldiers at least an hour walking in a straight line to get that far across the border. I used to be a wildland firefighter, we were trained to hike at 4 mph with a 45 pound pack if the terrain were flat and low elevation - and that was a pretty fast pace that a person had to be in good shape to keep up for more than three or four miles. We could go slower on rougher terrain or at altitude. So if those paratroopers got that lost, then their navigation skills were crap as it would have taken them hours going in the wrong direction to get that far across the border. But rather than admit to sending troops across the border on purpose, Russia instead just accused their own troops of being wildly incompetent at map reading and navigation.

Now they claim that their Navy sucks so bad that they can't even keep the Black Sea flagship from bursting into flames and sinking even when the enemy doesn't do a thing. They would much rather accuse 500+ sailors and officers of gross incompetence than to admit that Ukraine used the anti-ship missiles that Ukraine has always publicly claimed to actually have.


That's some serious top-down leadership thinking. Accuse the peons of every failure, it's never the higher-ups, never due to any enemy success.

Last edited by crescent; 14th April 2022 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 14th April 2022, 02:10 PM   #1639
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And in a total "coincidence", an E-3A Sentry reconnaissance airplane was over the Romanian coast when the strike occurred. A number of people tracked in on the 'Flight Radar' app.

Make of it that you want.
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Old 14th April 2022, 02:15 PM   #1640
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Apparently, some Russian media are claiming the Moskva sank 'because of a violent sea storm'.

I ain't saying nothing.
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