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Tags police incidents , police misconduct charges , racism incidents

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Old 19th May 2020, 03:14 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
If you believe the cops...

Sam's Club said the TV was stolen so cops tried to arrest Derek. Derek resisted and attempted to use a fire extinguisher as a weapon against the cops. Mavia went ballistic and got physical with the cops. The cops called in more cops.

Are the cops lying ? Maybe but since a lawsuit has been filed we're not going to get much more information on this until the suit is settled.
I believe the cops.

Not saying cops don't lie ever, and not saying cops don't develop racial biases - but I am saying that the racial biases they develop are firmly rooted in their "lived experience" and are an entirely appropriate and understandable reaction to what they encounter.

Generally, though, I think they do a pretty good job of setting aside their biases when dealing with each new encounter. It's just that each new encounter with black people tends to function as a complete renewal / establishment of said biases even if they hadn't existed prior to it.

So, if the store incorrectly indicated the TV was stolen, that is a really sucky thing to happen to anyone who's just trying to return a TV. If that led to attention from police, I could see how that would be irritating, embarrassing, and frustrating. To be falsely accused of stealing a TV when you'd already dealt with nonsense about it earlier during purchase? This is the kind of stuff which most of us would be kvetching about to anyone who'd listen for years to come. We'd also probably leave a nasty review or call some managers, maybe.

What we wouldn't do is start swinging fire extinguishers and losing our minds in a way that is inevitably going to ramp things up and get the police to respond physically. No, that behavior is almost exclusively the province of blacks. A small number of whites will behave in that way, but I worry they may end up being sued for copyright infringement by the black community.
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Old 19th May 2020, 03:16 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... Interesting.

Not to be that guy, and not that I think you should be doing shemp's homework, but do you happen to have a source for that?
If by "source" you mean unverified claim that it was posted by someone at some point on Facebook, then I'm your guy.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...2978b49b0.html

(It's the same link posted upthread, but I remembered the fire extinguisher part)
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Old 19th May 2020, 03:17 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
They returned because of indignation over the accusation of stealing the TV. Most likely, the son got the TV home to give to his mom, told her the story, and she got pissed off and told him he needed to return it and, "By the way, I'm going with you to give someone a piece of my mind."

When I was a kid, I was yelled at (for examining a button at an escalator - seriously) by an employee at Montgomery Ward while I was with my grandparents. My grandma told off the manager, paid the balance on their Montgomery Ward credit card, closed the account, and my grandparents never went to one of their stores again...after shopping there regularly for years.

My point being that the indignation that comes when someone feels a close family member has been mistreated...it can be powerful.
I admire your grandparents' protective feelings over you, but it sounds to me like they overreacted big time.

Are they white? It sounds like a very white version of overreaction. I'm glad your grandpa didn't start swinging a fire extinguisher around. That would not have been very white.
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Old 19th May 2020, 03:18 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I figured it was something like that. Just trying to wrap my head around the idea of "we wanted the TV, we have the TV, Sam's Club had our back; let's ditch the TV and yell at Sam's Club". Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
i believe one employee at Sam's Club didn't have their back. He was the one who thought they were stealing the TV. Or at least he probably asked them for a receipt or something.
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Old 19th May 2020, 03:20 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
i believe one employee at Sam's Club didn't have their back. He was the one who thought they were stealing the TV. Or at least he probably asked them for a receipt or something.
They didn't meet that guy until after they returned to do the return, though, right? So he can't have factored into their decision to return it.
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Old 19th May 2020, 03:27 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They didn't meet that guy until after they returned to do the return, though, right? So he can't have factored into their decision to return it.
That's not my understanding of this (horribly reported) incident. From the article I just linked:

"When Derek Gray returned to get the television, the lawsuit says, a store employee didnít believe he had purchased it, and he was forced to come inside to customer service to show the receipt."

That incident, when told to his mother, caused them to decide to return it. Then during the return, something happened, and the rest is poorly reported history.
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Old 19th May 2020, 03:32 PM   #87
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You have to figure that a guy working in security would know not to fight the cops or, if you're going to fight them fight them in court, not in the street. Cops are trained to not loose fights on the street.

Marvia, OTOH, well she was just stupid. Grandmother or not, there's a very real possibility that she could have a gun in her purse ( this is "Murica, right ? ) so it's understandable why the cops would want to get the cuffs on her once she started doing her thing.
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Old 19th May 2020, 03:45 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
That's not my understanding of this (horribly reported) incident. From the article I just linked:

"When Derek Gray returned to get the television, the lawsuit says, a store employee didnít believe he had purchased it, and he was forced to come inside to customer service to show the receipt."

That incident, when told to his mother, caused them to decide to return it. Then during the return, something happened, and the rest is poorly reported history.
Ah, then yeah, I can see them wanting to return the TV.

Though, isn't it pretty normal for a store to ask for proof of purchase or whatever, before turning over an item being held for pickup?
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Old 19th May 2020, 04:00 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ah, then yeah, I can see them wanting to return the TV.

Though, isn't it pretty normal for a store to ask for proof of purchase or whatever, before turning over an item being held for pickup?
Of course, if they don't recognize you. Or even if they do.

It probably has to do with how it was asked or how it was interpreted as having been asked. According to the purchasers, they were accused of having stolen the TV.
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:21 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Satire of the arguments and strawman positions typically proffered by racists when it's suggested that an incident might be racially motivated; firstly claim that the wimpy liberals want it to be racism, secondly attack the victim. Sorry if the sarcasm wasn't clear enough.

Dave
I got the sarcasm straight away.

I am having trouble seeing how it could be taken any other way.
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:26 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
If by "source" you mean unverified claim that it was posted by someone at some point on Facebook, then I'm your guy.

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...2978b49b0.html

(It's the same link posted upthread, but I remembered the fire extinguisher part)
I don't see any TV in the footage. I do see a black man having a heated, non-violent argument with a store employee. First cop to enter immediately wants to cuff the black man. A black woman interferes.

There is a scam where a buyer takes something home, opens the box carefully, maybe from the bottom, reloads the box with bricks for weight, and returns his purchase for refund. IF that was what went on, and the person at the return counter spotted the scam, then yes, theft happened. "Buyer" wants the box, the evidence, back. Things escalate. But if that was the real story I think somebody would be up on charges of um, I think it's called "commercial burglary".
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Old 19th May 2020, 05:59 PM   #92
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So here is what I see.

The mother and the son are having a conversation with a store employee.The son is becoming agitated and the mother is gesturing for him to go away and let her handle it. The son goes out of the store but comes back in again and is becoming agitated.

After a long time the first policeman comes in and, without having any discussion, starts to arrest the son. Another policeman comes in to assist this arrest. The mother approaches but we can't exactly see what she is doing.

The mother then starts walking away and the second policeman follows her. She holds up her hand as though to ward him away and the policeman grabs her and pushes her up against a wall. The son, seeing this, moves over to come to his mother's aid and the first policeman grabs him and slams him hard against the fire extinguisher on the wall. The son grabs the fire extinguisher that the policeman slammed him against and throws it back at the policeman who pushes him to the floor. The mother tries to approach her son and the second policeman also pushes the mother to the floor.

They are on the floor apparently struggling and the third policeman comes in to help to restrain the son and then the second policeman has finally got the cuffs on the mother.

A bit hard to see how the policeman could have interpreted this as a robbery.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:05 PM   #93
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Who said it was a robbery?
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:29 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who said it was a robbery?
I don't know who suggested this, but the police report says that the officer was responding to a larceny in process and at the end said that they would be proceeding with stealing charges.

It is difficult to see from the video how this could have been interpreted as larceny or stealing.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:35 PM   #95
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Lot of white people in this thread going [Dave Chappelle white person voice] Oh, dear, there is something not right. There must be more to the story.

Yeah. There isn't. Dollars to dog turds that if the TV purchaser was white, the cops help him carry it out to his car.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:46 PM   #96
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The cops had a duty to deescalate this instead of arresting people then charging them with resisting arrest. There are no circumstances they needed to react to contempt of cop, none!

I hope they get millions from the city/county/whomever.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Were you[ planning on making an argument that now other, more complete sources for this story exist or are you just being too lazy to go look for yourself ?
You made the claim. Are you too lazy to provide links to your evidence?
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:47 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
Lot of white people in this thread going [Dave Chappelle white person voice] Oh, dear, there is something not right. There must be more to the story.

Yeah. There isn't. Dollars to dog turds that if the TV purchaser was white, the cops help him carry it out to his car.
This ^
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:47 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
Lot of white people in this thread going [Dave Chappelle white person voice] Oh, dear, there is something not right. There must be more to the story.

Yeah. There isn't. Dollars to dog turds that if the TV purchaser was white, the cops help him carry it out to his car.
The "carry it out to the car" was a separate incident. And I will bet Dollars to dog Turds that there is more to the story.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:47 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
You have to figure that a guy working in security would know not to fight the cops or, if you're going to fight them fight them in court, not in the street. Cops are trained to not loose fights on the street.

Marvia, OTOH, well she was just stupid. Grandmother or not, there's a very real possibility that she could have a gun in her purse ( this is "Murica, right ? ) so it's understandable why the cops would want to get the cuffs on her once she started doing her thing.
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:50 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
You made the claim. Are you too lazy to provide links to your evidence?
You really need evidence that there are other sources for this story ? Really ?
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:51 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
You really need evidence that there are other sources for this story ? Really ?
Can you really not link to one? Really?
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Old 19th May 2020, 06:52 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
You really need evidence that there are other sources for this story ? Really ?
Not sure how many laughing dog icons this deserves.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:00 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I don't know who suggested this, but the police report says that the officer was responding to a larceny in process and at the end said that they would be proceeding with stealing charges.

It is difficult to see from the video how this could have been interpreted as larceny or stealing.
I haven't seen any video of anything at the return counter. Only the plaintiff arguing with a store employee, no counter and no TV in sight.

"Larceny in progress" at the return counter? That sounds like a fraudulent return, like I mentioned above.

Or maybe he was never at the return counter? How is this for a fraud: He takes the one set home, gets to thinking.... he did leave a TV that he had paid for, they let him come back later and load a TV into his car. Hmmm, try it again?

Scammers can be tricky, I don't care what color their skin is.

We see the footage from the one camera. It shows the escalation and take down. I didn't see any kicking. Where can we see the footage from the other camera that shows the start of the arguement?
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:02 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Can you really not link to one? Really?
No, I want to see how far this goes before somebody snaps and actually operates a search engine.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:10 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The "carry it out to the car" was a separate incident. And I will bet Dollars to dog Turds that there is more to the story.
They challenged the man when he came back for the TV because the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. When he got home and told his mother she got pissed and they went to return the TV and take their business elsewhere.

That's when they were accused of trying to return a stolen TV. And that sucks by itself. So the cops come with the report of the stolen TV.

And this is what pisses me off the most. Instead of coming to assess the situation, they simply act on the phone call as if it were fact. They should have asked more questions instead of accusing the man of trying to return a stolen TV.

The mother was already angry and she was yelling and out of control.

But I stand by what I said, cops are responsible to deescalate situations. The man was not returning a stolen TV. That should have been resolved first.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:17 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
No, I want to see how far this goes before somebody snaps and actually operates a search engine.
Surprise! I actually have (hours ago when you first started refusing to elaborate on your claim) and, at least in the first two pages, the only significant site I found was the Daily News. So, again, please provide links to your better sources.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:19 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
No, I want to see how far this goes before somebody snaps and actually operates a search engine.
No need even for that. I already posted a better article in this thread. Twice.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:23 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Surprise! I actually have (hours ago when you first started refusing to elaborate on your claim) and, at least in the first two pages, the only significant site I found was the Daily News. So, again, please provide links to your better sources.
Your search engine sucks.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:41 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I haven't seen any video of anything at the return counter. Only the plaintiff arguing with a store employee, no counter and no TV in sight.

"Larceny in progress" at the return counter? That sounds like a fraudulent return, like I mentioned above.

Or maybe he was never at the return counter? How is this for a fraud: He takes the one set home, gets to thinking.... he did leave a TV that he had paid for, they let him come back later and load a TV into his car. Hmmm, try it again?
Or, maybe no "larceny" was ever reported. Maybe that store employee who came back with the cop simply asked him to help intervene with a customer who was becoming argumentative.

Maybe when the police started hearing the social media reports they thought to themelves "Hmmm... maybe we had better pretend that we were responding to a reported larceny".

Cops can be tricky too, you know

And, of course we know that there was no larceny involved because the police returned the TV to the Gray's the following day.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:51 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Your search engine sucks.
So why don't you post the link now?

Or at least tell us how many stupid excuses you are going to give us first.
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Old 19th May 2020, 07:57 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
Lot of white people in this thread going [Dave Chappelle white person voice] Oh, dear, there is something not right. There must be more to the story.

Yeah. There isn't. Dollars to dog turds that if the TV purchaser was white, the cops help him carry it out to his car.


The story has already changed from the tv not fitting in the car to TV and son arriving home with TV, mom sending son with tv from home back to the store.
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:00 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So why don't you post the link now?

Or at least tell us how many stupid excuses you are going to give us first.
Links...we're talking multiple links.

If you're unable to find any of them then you might need to consider that your government is censoring your access to information. To keep you safe, of course.
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:01 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The story has already changed from the tv not fitting in the car to TV and son arriving home with TV, mom sending son with tv from home back to the store.
How has it changed?
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:19 PM   #115
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Like I said in what you quoted? Did I miss something? First the altercation was said to have happened when they went back to get the TV after it didnít fit in the car. Now it is said to have happened when they were returning it after having made it home with the TV. At least thatís how I read the OP and then the later article. I could be wrong; I often am. Either way the opening post and that article were a mess.
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Old 19th May 2020, 08:31 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Links...we're talking multiple links.

If you're unable to find any of them then you might need to consider that your government is censoring your access to information. To keep you safe, of course.
Perhaps your alleged links are all in your mind? You might need to consider professional help.
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Old 19th May 2020, 09:21 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Perhaps your alleged links are all in your mind? You might need to consider professional help.
Perhaps, perhaps not.

Yell me, do you believe the statement issued by the Des Peres Department of Public Safety ? That may, or may not, exist ?

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Old 19th May 2020, 11:33 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Like I said in what you quoted? Did I miss something? First the altercation was said to have happened when they went back to get the TV after it didnít fit in the car. Now it is said to have happened when they were returning it after having made it home with the TV. At least thatís how I read the OP and then the later article. I could be wrong; I often am. Either way the opening post and that article were a mess.
Again, I am not sure what you are saying has changed.


Here is the story as I understand it.

He buys the TV. He finds it doesn't fit in his SUV, takes it back and asked them to hold it and then came back. When he comes back to retrieve it an employee suspects him of stealing it but another employee confirms that he owns the television. when putting it back in his car a police officer suspects him of stealing and again an employee sets him straight.

When the son gets home, he and his mother decide to return to the store to return the TV which is where the arrest and the events on camera happen.

That is the story as I first heard it and it is, as far as I know, the story still.

Now what part of that has changed?
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Old 19th May 2020, 11:51 PM   #119
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I think that there is over reaction on both sides.

Having watched the store video a few times here's seems to have happened.

- Derek and Marvia are talking with a store employee when the first cop arrives. Derek does look agitated.

- The first cop and Derek appear to exchange words and the cop immediately tries to grab Derek's arm.

- Derek pulls his arm back and places both arms behind his back, the second cop arrives.

- Derek starts stepping back away from the first cop and Marvia tries to step between the first cop and her son as the cop continues to try and grab Derek.

- The Second cop arrives as the first gets around Marvia and as Derek is facing the second cop, the first cop grabs Derek's arm.

- The second cop grabs Derek's other arm, Marvia walks away, the second cop lets go of Derek and goes after her.

- The second cop tries to grab Marvia, who fends him off, Derek tries to break the hold the first cop has on his arm.

- The second cop gets hold of Marvia and pushes her across the store and into the wall. Meanwhile Derek breaks the first cop's grip, loses his balance and staggers backwards out of frame, the first cop following him.

- The second cop has Marvia under control at this point. The first appears to grab Derek again, Derek breaks the grab again and comes back into frame, turns and walks towards his mother.

- The first cop here charges Derek, hitting him from behind and slams him into the wall. Derek does get his arms up to protect himself going face first into it.

- The first cop then yanks Derek backwards, Derek grabs at the fire extinguisher that he was slammed into to try and prevent this, but it comes loose and both he and the fire are thrown backwards onto the floor.

- The first Cop drops on top of Derek as he does that.

- Marvia breaks away from the second Cop to run over to Derek. The second cop grabs her and throws her to the floor cuffing her. The first cop cuffs Derek

From there the other cops arrive over time, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of action happening, the other two cops were certainly not involved in the incident.

So....

The cops should never have been called in the first place.

Cop 1 over reacted several times, escalating things

The cops claim that Derek grabbed the fire extinguisher as a weapon is totally false.

Both Marvia and Derek acted for the most part as people that didn't think that the cops had a right to lay hands on them would.

Other than the tackle on Derek slamming him into the wall and then the floor, the situation seems to have been non-excessive. I do think that there is a case for that tackle and slam being to the line of excessive, it was certainly unnecessary.

I think it's possible the city might settle, but otherwise, I don't think they'll get the verdict they want.

I would never go back to the shop in question.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 19th May 2020 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 19th May 2020, 11:56 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I figured it was something like that. Just trying to wrap my head around the idea of "we wanted the TV, we have the TV, Sam's Club had our back; let's ditch the TV and yell at Sam's Club". Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
When he came back with the receipt to pick it up, it had been moved from where they left it and they wouldn't give it to him on suspicion that he was trying to steal it. They say that "eventually, that same day" they gave him the television after a store employer intervened with the management.

Doesn't sound much like having his back to me.
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