Merged: Please Enjoy Your Flight with Toxic Airways

[The Atheist]

This is something I've never given much thought to - beyond the fact that aeroplane air is lousy to begin with. (I could easily have been a nose as a career and to me, aeroplane air has a unique smell that always reminds me of The Langoliers - dead and stale)

I presume someone actually checks to make sure the air is airworthy - it is fairly essential for the operation of the plane - and never give it a second thought.

In fact, it seems that testing air quality on planes isn't just not done, it's strenuously argued against by manufacturers!

https://www.latimes.com/projects/tox...9-travel-woes/

[Mikemcc]

Two issues there:

Fumes from mechanical issues with the bleed air from the engines - easily spotted by the crew and can be fixed.

Particulates (including viruses in these more aware times). The air on a plane is largely recycled - the bleed air is to replace some that is vented out to reduce CO2 levels in the cabin. but it passes through HEPA filters, I don't know what grade, in the pharma industry we generally use H14 filters. Whenever we change them we test them using particle counters (used to use DOP smoke and photometers, but we've moved away from that). It's easy enough to test, up to the airlines to enforce test procedures.

https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Bef...n-air-quality/

https://www.ustranscom.mil/cmd/docs/...rt%20Final.pdf

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Mikemcc

Two issues there:

Fumes from mechanical issues with the bleed air from the engines - easily spotted by the crew and can be fixed.

Particulates (including viruses in these more aware times). The air on a plane is largely recycled - the bleed air is to replace some that is vented out to reduce CO2 levels in the cabin. but it passes through HEPA filters, I don't know what grade, in the pharma industry we generally use H14 filters. Whenever we change them we test them using particle counters (used to use DOP smoke and photometers, but we've moved away from that). It's easy enough to test, up to the airlines to enforce test procedures.

https://www.caa.co.uk/Passengers/Bef...n-air-quality/

https://www.ustranscom.mil/cmd/docs/...rt%20Final.pdf

Actually modern aircraft have good quality air (assuming as said above there is not a leak into the air intake. Modern jets have about 20 cabin air exchanges / hour probably higher at present. Isolation rooms in hospitals run at 10 exchanges / hour and operating theatres 10 - 20 exchanges / hour. So the air in aircraft is as 'clean' as in an operating theatre.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143720/

[Darat]

Interesting last point in that article given the current times:

Quote:

...snip...

However, a report on SARS transmission on aircraft (29) showed that cases occurred among passengers seated further apart and on flights lasting considerably less than 8 hours, but the possibility that passengers who developed SARS were infected before or after the flight could not be excluded.

...snip...

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by Planigale

Actually modern aircraft have good quality air (assuming as said above there is not a leak into the air intake. Modern jets have about 20 cabin air exchanges / hour probably higher at present. Isolation rooms in hospitals run at 10 exchanges / hour and operating theatres 10 - 20 exchanges / hour. So the air in aircraft is as 'clean' as in an operating theatre.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143720/

Wouldn't air exchanges per hour per occupant be a better measure?

Isolation rooms in hospitals ~2 occupants, so 5 per person-hour
Operating theatres ~10 occupants, so 1.5 per person-hour
Airliner ~200 occupants, so 0.1 per person-hour

[Bob001]

More good news: Your plane may be gassing you.

Quote:

The air you breathe on airplanes comes directly from the jet engines. Known as bleed air, it is safe, unless there is a mechanical issue — a faulty seal, for instance. When that happens, heated jet engine oil can leak into the air supply, potentially releasing toxic gases into the plane.

For decades, the airline industry and its regulators have known about these incidents — called fume events — and have maintained that they are rare and that the toxic chemical levels are too low to pose serious health risks.

But a Times investigation found that vapors from oil and other fluids seep into planes with alarming frequency across all airlines, at times creating chaos and confusion: Flight attendants vomit and pass out. Passengers struggle to breathe. Children get rushed to hospitals. Pilots reach for oxygen masks or gasp for air from opened cockpit windows.

https://www.latimes.com/projects/tox...9-travel-woes/

[alfaniner]

If it was dangerous or common we'd likely be hearing a lot more about it.

I was on a plane holding for takeoff once, and at one point a giant cloud of white vapor came through the vents. It wasn't unpleasant smelling, in fact, mildly sweet. There were a lot of surprised exclamations but no one panicked as far as I know.

The captain came on a moment later and said that the people de-icing the plane had sprayed too close to the intake vent. I'd think they'd have safeguards against that sort of thing. Well, maybe they do now.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by alfaniner

If it was dangerous or common we'd likely be hearing a lot more about it.
....

From the story it's indisputably dangerous. Airline crews and passengers have been hospitalized. The airlines claim it's not very common. The question becomes "how common does it have to be to be seen as a problem?"

[TragicMonkey]

The airlines just want you to pay extra for non-poisoned seats.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Bob001

From the story it's indisputably dangerous. Airline crews and passengers have been hospitalized. The airlines claim it's not very common. The question becomes "how common does it have to be to be seen as a problem?"

"Seen as a problem" in what sense? Obviously it's a problem. Also obviously, it's not happening often enough for the general public to have formed an impression that air travel is fundamentally unsafe and they should stop doing it.

I think the real question is whether the general public will form such an impression based on the LAT article. Everybody agrees that this kind of thing is a problem. And everybody also agrees that it's not enough of a problem to turn them off to air travel.

Does the LAT article happen to give a breakdown of incidents by airline? I suspect that the extent of the problem varies greatly with the training and maintenance of the various airlines. Like there are probably some airlines you don't want to fly because their pilots are poorly trained and their planes are poorly maintained. But the existence of those airlines wouldn't really justify a blanket, "air travel is more dangerous than you thought" type story.

[Trebuchet]

Just fly on a 787, they don't use bleed air.

[GodMark2]

Originally Posted by Myriad

Wouldn't air exchanges per hour per occupant be a better measure?

Isolation rooms in hospitals ~2 occupants, so 5 per person-hour
Operating theatres ~10 occupants, so 1.5 per person-hour
Airliner ~200 occupants, so 0.1 per person-hour

You'd also have to account for the total volume of the room in that case, making it liters per exchange per person per hour (or similar). If you instead assume that the volume is roughly proportional to the number of occupants, you end up back using ((room volume/people) == 1) exchanges per hour. As the number of people is constantly changing (or at least not constant), while the room volume stays constant, that's a lot easier to calculate, while still giving reasonable results.

[Athyrio]

Aw, shoot! Those chemtrail barrels are leaking again.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Athyrio

Aw, shoot! Those chemtrail barrels are leaking again.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by GodMark2

You'd also have to account for the total volume of the room in that case, making it liters per exchange per person per hour (or similar). If you instead assume that the volume is roughly proportional to the number of occupants, you end up back using ((room volume/people) == 1) exchanges per hour. As the number of people is constantly changing (or at least not constant), while the room volume stays constant, that's a lot easier to calculate, while still giving reasonable results.

But the volume per person is not nearly constant, when comparing between an airplane cabin and just about anything else.* Do you really think the volume per person (with or without a nurse in the room) of a hospital isolation room is anywhere close to a filled up flight? "Assuming" it's the same greatly exaggerates the relative air exchange of the airplane.


*Exceptions: phone booths, porta-potties, WWII submarines, subway platforms and trains at rush hour, high school hallways between periods...

[cullennz]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The airlines just want you to pay extra for non-poisoned seats.

Lol

Sorry. But that cracked me up.

Lol

[CORed]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The airlines just want you to pay extra for non-poisoned seats.

They're going to put in credit/debit card accepters and charge for oxygen masks. If that weird smell due to an oil leak doesn't convince you a little rapid depressurization will do the trick.

[MRC_Hans]

Obviously, keeping the air fresh in a passenger plane requires some kind of pumps that can take the thin air at cruising altitude and compress it to cabin pressure levels. Quite a lot of air. So, yes, whatever pump employed could fail and, among other things produce fumes.

Never heard of it in practice, though. Personally I have flown what equals twenty times around the world, and never experienced any.

Hans

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Obviously, keeping the air fresh in a passenger plane requires some kind of pumps that can take the thin air at cruising altitude and compress it to cabin pressure levels. Quite a lot of air. So, yes, whatever pump employed could fail and, among other things produce fumes.

Never heard of it in practice, though. Personally I have flown what equals twenty times around the world, and never experienced any.

Hans

For most airliners (787 excepted) the pump is the compressor stage of the turbofan engine, which compresses a great deal of air to much higher than cabin pressures. You just bleed a little off and cool it down. That's why it's called "bleed air". The real trick is cooling it down, as it comes out of the engine rather warm.

You know when the air on airliners was far more dangerous than it is now? When they allowed smoking on board!

Then again, you might want to be careful. There might be as much as 50% Nitrogen in it!

[crackers]

I don’t know what it is about the air in jets but as soon as I get in a jet I can smell it, and the smell of the air in a jet literally makes me nauseated. Every time.