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Old 29th November 2019, 11:57 AM   #521
ArchSas
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Media, politics and fashion are three which are commonly cited although law and finance also sometimes use unpaid internships. With regards the media in particular Nick Cohn has written has written about his observations on the effect it's had in the demographics entering the industry.
I also know people who have gone into engineering, finance, and business that have had to do unpaid internships, generally more than one. From talking to them about it, it seemed pretty common for the fields. Education doesn't technically require unpaid internships, but getting a teacher certification does usually require paying for a 1-2 year program that involves gaining experience as a student teacher. I'm not sure how many people on this board are aware of this, but there's a running joke among people my age about how so many entry-level positions in stereotypically middle-class fields now require somewhat ridiculous levels of qualifications/experience. Seeing something like "entry level position - MA and two years experience minimum required" isn't especially uncommon. It seems that during the recession, these trends (relying on internships and demanding ridiculous levels of experience) really took hold (hey, people were desperate for work, and who wouldn't want to hire overqualified people if you can get them for cheap or free?), and it's become the status quo.

In my professional career, getting to a point where you get paid to do archaeology is also challenging. You generally have to pay for a field school to gain field experience, then volunteer and hope someone eventually offers to pay you for something you've been doing for free. Oh, and because you haven't been paid to do it yet, technically you have no job experience and are entry level no matter how much field experience or education you actually have. In a related professional world, museums and archives also rely heavily on unpaid internships and volunteers. My current job has nothing to do with archaeology, but also had some pretty stringent experience demands considering what I actually do.

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Old 29th November 2019, 01:45 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
I also know people [Snipped for length as it's just above..]
Thank you for this, the perspective of someone who's had to face this situation is obviously far more powerful than that of someone like myself who was lucky enough to avoid it.
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Old 29th November 2019, 02:24 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Yeah I'm just going to go and ahead and say this is a bunch of hogwash. Terry's story is a good yarn, but that doesn't make it true, especially in the modern world. I see this get trotted out all the time and frankly I'm kind of astounded people think it applies to their lot in life.
It really is true, though. I'm on benefits due to my disabilities and I cannot work; I wish I could. Even with the extra money to which I'm entitled because I'm disabled, most of which I have to spend on carers, I live on a very tight budget with very little wiggle room.

If my kettle (for example) stops working, I have to shave money off my food budget for the week to buy a new one. None of the kettles available in the local mid-range supermarket are within my budget, as the cheapest one would leave me with £8 for food for the week. And when you live on a tight budget, you don't have a whole lot of stockpile in the cupboards/fridge/freezer.

So I need to source a cheaper one, but that means getting a cheap one off the market (no guarantee, and it'll probably break in three months), or beg for a second-hand one off freecycle (again no guarantee, and no knowing how long it will last).

People say, oh, but it's just a kettle. You can manage without it - and I can for a little while but that puts up my gas bill as then I have to heat water on the stove which according to the smart meter costs more.

But it's not just the kettle. It's every appliance and gadget - even the wheelchair without which I'm stuck in the house. My current chair was relatively expensive and I had to put it on a credit card, which I'm still paying off (so more expensive than if I'd had the £2500 up front). A better chair would cost me a prohibitive £10k plus, but it would probably be still going strong after I die.

The previous two were second-hand ones from ebay, which neither fitted me well nor lasted. If I'd been able to have my current chair earlier, I'd have saved the cost of those two cheap second-hand chairs.

I don't really need to worry about shoes (I buy cheap but they don't get a lot of wear ) but I have to buy cheap jeans and t-shirts, and they don't last as long as better quality ones do.

In the long run, I end up spending more on kettles (and wheelchairs and toasters and can-openers and saucepans and clothes and everything else) because cheap stuff doesn't last, than if I could buy the good quality ones with the three/five year guarantees in the first place. But I don't have the money to invest in the good stuff.
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Old 29th November 2019, 02:49 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
It really is true, though. I'm on benefits due to my disabilities and I cannot work; I wish I could. Even with the extra money to which I'm entitled because I'm disabled, most of which I have to spend on carers, I live on a very tight budget with very little wiggle room.

If my kettle (for example) stops working, I have to shave money off my food budget for the week to buy a new one. None of the kettles available in the local mid-range supermarket are within my budget, as the cheapest one would leave me with £8 for food for the week. And when you live on a tight budget, you don't have a whole lot of stockpile in the cupboards/fridge/freezer.

So I need to source a cheaper one, but that means getting a cheap one off the market (no guarantee, and it'll probably break in three months), or beg for a second-hand one off freecycle (again no guarantee, and no knowing how long it will last).

People say, oh, but it's just a kettle. You can manage without it - and I can for a little while but that puts up my gas bill as then I have to heat water on the stove which according to the smart meter costs more.

But it's not just the kettle. It's every appliance and gadget - even the wheelchair without which I'm stuck in the house. My current chair was relatively expensive and I had to put it on a credit card, which I'm still paying off (so more expensive than if I'd had the £2500 up front). A better chair would cost me a prohibitive £10k plus, but it would probably be still going strong after I die.

The previous two were second-hand ones from ebay, which neither fitted me well nor lasted. If I'd been able to have my current chair earlier, I'd have saved the cost of those two cheap second-hand chairs.

I don't really need to worry about shoes (I buy cheap but they don't get a lot of wear ) but I have to buy cheap jeans and t-shirts, and they don't last as long as better quality ones do.

In the long run, I end up spending more on kettles (and wheelchairs and toasters and can-openers and saucepans and clothes and everything else) because cheap stuff doesn't last, than if I could buy the good quality ones with the three/five year guarantees in the first place. But I don't have the money to invest in the good stuff.
All of this is completely true, but it doesn't mean the same thing as Terry's analogy.

He's saying the rich guy is rich because he can buy a better kettle. And that you are poor because you can't. That has cause and effect reversed.

The fact is that you are poor so you have to stretch your resources. The rich guy doesn't he can waste a bunch and still be fine. But that's an effect of the situation, not the cause of the situation.

You aren't poor because you can't buy an expensive kettle like the rich guy, you are poor because you are disabled and can't earn money.

Conversely you don't get rich by buying a lot of nice stuff. You have a lot of nice stuff because you are rich.

Now, maybe there is a real analogy in there somewhere about capital and having access to it in certain situations that has some truth. But I don't think that applies to most of the situations where people bring out this quote.
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Old 29th November 2019, 02:54 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Yep. As a person that grew up poor and worked pretty hard to get to the middle class, I'm also going to throw support behind the idea Pratchett was expressing. I've lived through it and seen it. When you're poor, it's damn hard to accumulate anything.

Besides the cost of keeping up with low-quality pruchases (like maintenance on unreliable cars), not knowing how to leverage debt also has a lot to do with it. One of the pieces of "advice" commonly given to the poor also contributes to that cycle: the idea that you should avoid debt at any cost. Beyond the added challenge of spending pretty much all of your money when expenses occur instead of (smartly) using tools to spread out impact, the simple fact of the matter is that in the US, you can't accomplish much of anything without a good credit score and a significant credit history. The only way to build that is by managing debt, and if you avoid participating in that system, you're royally screwed. I fell for that advice and it's still causing me problems that make pretty much every aspect of normal middle class life (getting a car, housing, even trying to get a credit card to build more history) still kind of a challenge for me. To tie this into the larger point about how expensive it can be to be poor, a great example is how much it cost me to rent my current apartment: because of my lack of credit history, I needed to pay double the typical security deposit, along with last month's rent (another cost not usually required at my complex) - that tripped the normal move-in costs and could have easily been prohibitive had I not had decent savings. And it all could have easily been avoided by getting a credit card at 18 and being responsible with it, instead of avoiding debt like poor people are "supposed" to do. And given that all the financial advice and wisdom I hear now is about leveraging debt, it makes me think there might be some insidious motivations behind what I was hearing as a poor teenager.
Yeah, no I 100% disagree. Poor people should avoid debt as much as possible. I assume you aren't a fan of Dave Ramsey but I think he gets more right than wrong about personal finance.

Does that mean you shouldn't get a mortgage on a house? No it doesn't, as usual there are plenty of grey areas. Secured debt with a good down payment on a non-depreciating asset can work out. But most debt isn't secured or it's tied to a depreciating asset like a car.
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Old 29th November 2019, 04:16 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
Poor people should avoid debt as much as possible.
If you'll notice, I wasn't saying that it's okay for people to go out and rack up debt buying stuff they can't afford. I was talking about using debt responsibly to build up a credit history. Something that's impossible if you're avoiding debt at all costs. You can disagree all you want, but avoiding debt like the plague has made some basic things pretty hard for me. You think buying a house is smart, but I assume it would be hard for me to get a mortgage (even though what little credit history I have is good) when I recently had to jump through all kinds of hoops and pay nearly triple to rent out an apartment I could easily afford. And I think it's strange that for a few years now all the middle-class financial advice I've seen praises smart usage of credit (think like "rich people are rich because they know how to leverage debt" and "debt can be a good thing if you use it right"), when as a poor person all I heard was exactly the opposite, and following that advice has made it hard to function in the middle class. To tie this back into the issue of discussion (how expensive it can be to be poor): just using the same example, it was much more expensive for me to move into that place than it should have been, and only because I was following that advice. A person with the same lack of credit history, but poor, and didn't have the savings to cover the cost probably wouldn't have even been able to rent that place (which is on the cheaper end for my area). Because of that, I certainly don't feel like I got good advice when I was younger, or even that I got the advice a person from better means would have been exposed to.

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Old 29th November 2019, 04:26 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
All of this is completely true, but it doesn't mean the same thing as Terry's analogy.

He's saying the rich guy is rich because he can buy a better kettle. And that you are poor because you can't. That has cause and effect reversed.

The fact is that you are poor so you have to stretch your resources. The rich guy doesn't he can waste a bunch and still be fine. But that's an effect of the situation, not the cause of the situation.

You aren't poor because you can't buy an expensive kettle like the rich guy, you are poor because you are disabled and can't earn money.

Conversely you don't get rich by buying a lot of nice stuff. You have a lot of nice stuff because you are rich.

Now, maybe there is a real analogy in there somewhere about capital and having access to it in certain situations that has some truth. But I don't think that applies to most of the situations where people bring out this quote.
With the greatest of respect, I don't think that is what PTerry meant. What he was pointing out is that it costs more money to be poor.

If you are rich, you buy a kettle for £50 and it comes with a five year guarantee, and it doesn't break down inside the guarantee period because it's a quality piece of kit. If you are poor, you buy a second hand kettle off the market for £10, and it lasts three months. When it breaks, you either spend more money heating water on the stove or you buy another cheap kettle for another £10, which again lasts three months.

The rich person has spent £50 on a good quality kettle, and it's still going strong after 5 years.

The poor person (for whom £50 represents two weeks' worth of food) has spent £200 on cheap kettles and extra gas charges in that same five years, and they still have a rubbish appliance at the end of it.

The rich person spent £50 and after five years they still have a working kettle. The poor person spent £10 every three months for a total of £200 over that same five years, and the bloody kettle will still break down in a couple more weeks.
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Old 29th November 2019, 04:31 PM   #528
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Another example is dentistry. If you're well off enough to have regular dental checkups, you can get work done before minor problems turn into major ones. If you're too poor to visit the dentist regularly you hold off until the problems are so major you cannot avoid a visit. And what was a $35 copay and a $50 filling for a middle income person is a $3000 root canal or more likely a $250 extraction.
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Old 29th November 2019, 04:33 PM   #529
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I remember a primary school teacher pointing this out to us except I think it was socks. I'm not sure about the socks bit, but it made sense at the time. I was about eight or nine.

It still makes sense.
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Old 29th November 2019, 06:49 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
He's saying the rich guy is rich because he can buy a better kettle. And that you are poor because you can't. That has cause and effect reversed.
Both are true. It is a cycle.

Having money enables you to avoid false economies which in turn gives you the money to avoid false economies.
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Old 29th November 2019, 07:03 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
With the greatest of respect, I don't think that is what PTerry meant. What he was pointing out is that it costs more money to be poor.

If you are rich, you buy a kettle for £50 and it comes with a five year guarantee, and it doesn't break down inside the guarantee period because it's a quality piece of kit. If you are poor, you buy a second hand kettle off the market for £10, and it lasts three months. When it breaks, you either spend more money heating water on the stove or you buy another cheap kettle for another £10, which again lasts three months.

The rich person has spent £50 on a good quality kettle, and it's still going strong after 5 years.

The poor person (for whom £50 represents two weeks' worth of food) has spent £200 on cheap kettles and extra gas charges in that same five years, and they still have a rubbish appliance at the end of it.

The rich person spent £50 and after five years they still have a working kettle. The poor person spent £10 every three months for a total of £200 over that same five years, and the bloody kettle will still break down in a couple more weeks.

It wasn't that long ago the poor person had the nowse to work out if your kettle was ****** you could just get a pot and boil some water on the hob or light a small fire and it achieves the same result.

I don't actually blame them for this as we seem to have a generation of thick parents working **** out wise
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Old 29th November 2019, 09:33 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It wasn't that long ago the poor person had the nowse to work out if your kettle was ****** you could just get a pot and boil some water on the hob or light a small fire and it achieves the same result.

I don't actually blame them for this as we seem to have a generation of thick parents working **** out wise
Agatha mentioned that she could boil water on the stove, but that her gas bill would then go up.
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Old 30th November 2019, 02:59 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Agatha mentioned that she could boil water on the stove, but that her gas bill would then go up.
Mentioned it in more than one post for that matter and even mentioned that she'd could see it was more expensive with her smart meter.
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Old 30th November 2019, 03:02 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by NewtonTrino View Post
You'll note however that none of those people have willingly given up their fortunes. Anyone can say anything if they think it's good PR. Although I know there are some rich people who feel incredibly guilty about the whole thing (while still flying around on their jet).
There is no logical connection between saying 'we should replace the current welfare system with one that provides a genuine unconditional safety net whilst not punishing people for being productive' and 'I should give up my fortune' or 'I should feel guilty about being rich'.
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:11 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post



There are two suggested levels there, the first to give an acceptable standard of living and the second to give absolute bare-minimum assistance.

I note the proposal for a lower rate for minor children, then a full adult rate, then a pension-age rate. Looking at these figures as monthly income they seem to be as follows.

 Higher rateLower rate
Child£522.08£366.34
Youth£925.66£250.90
Adult£925.56£316.77
Pensioner£848.90£724.75

Anyway, it's some figures. It's a concrete proposal that was presented to the Social Security Committe in our parliament. Yesterday. Discuss.
What is the reason for the child rate being higher than youth/adult rate in the lower rate column? The higher rates seem similar to amounts that have been discussed in this thread as acceptable minimum levels.

I think pensions are tricky. It has to be assumed that pensioners may be unable to access additional income, so the rate needs to be high enough to account for this. However, some will have substantial wealth or private pensions. Perhaps a one-off means test at retirement age would be needed to set an appropriate level?
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Old 30th November 2019, 04:17 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Perhaps a one-off means test at retirement age would be needed to set an appropriate level?
That would be against the idea that the UBI has no strings attached.

If there are people who need more of a government handout than provided by the UBI then that should be a separate issue for the government to decide and it should have no effect on the UBI that is received.

For the same reason, I don't believe that UBI should be extended to children. Family allowances is again a separate issue.
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Old 30th November 2019, 05:06 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
What is the reason for the child rate being higher than youth/adult rate in the lower rate column? The higher rates seem similar to amounts that have been discussed in this thread as acceptable minimum levels.

I think pensions are tricky. It has to be assumed that pensioners may be unable to access additional income, so the rate needs to be high enough to account for this. However, some will have substantial wealth or private pensions. Perhaps a one-off means test at retirement age would be needed to set an appropriate level?

I was trying to get my head round that second column because it's less intuitive than the first one. Bear in mind that in the second column the "child" rate goes up to age 19 and then the youth rate to 24. I think the logic is that you aren't expected to start earning until you're 19, and that's why it goes down at that point. I think it's fairly perverse and based on actual minimum wage levels or perhaps basic benefit levels that are lower for youths than adults.

I'd have a hard job defending the second column. I think somebody thought they needed a "cheaper" option to present to the politicos and cobbled this together based on current minimum benefit levels. But nobody could live on those youth or adult rates so I don't think the logic holds very well. You'd still need additional assistance at these second-column levels so it seems to defeat the point a bit.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That would be against the idea that the UBI has no strings attached.

If there are people who need more of a government handout than provided by the UBI then that should be a separate issue for the government to decide and it should have no effect on the UBI that is received.

For the same reason, I don't believe that UBI should be extended to children. Family allowances is again a separate issue.

I agree with your point about pensions. UBI should be a lifelong thing and if it's not means-tested during your earning years when people might be on six-figure salaries, why should it suddenly be means-tested for pensioners? It's supposed to be universal irrespective of other means, and the clawback is through taxation. Why would that be different after retirement age?

I think the concept of a family allowance can be wrapped up in the UBI. Give every baby born their right as a citizen, rather than giving the parents child benefit. Tax it as part of the parents' income if you're concerned about well-off families getting too much.
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:07 AM   #538
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Something doesn’t click for me, re: The Kettle Scenario.

1. I can’t imagine the difference between gas consumption and electricity consumption is very much at all. Especially when you consider that you have to buy something extra (The Kettle) to use the cheaper electricity. I think it would just be cheaper to forgo The Kettle and use a multipurpose pot to boil water. Then you avoid having to buy a Kettle every six months.

2. Ok. You want a Kettle. Forgo the kettle for a little while and boil the water on the stove . Save up to get the 5 year Kettle. Break the cycle!

3. Is the necessity of a Kettle like a British thing?
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:27 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think the concept of a family allowance can be wrapped up in the UBI. Give every baby born their right as a citizen, rather than giving the parents child benefit. Tax it as part of the parents' income if you're concerned about well-off families getting too much.
You are getting back to taxing UBI again.

Benefits for children and whether they should be paid to parents or held in trust is a separate issue.
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:38 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Something doesn’t click for me, re: The Kettle Scenario.

1. I can’t imagine the difference between gas consumption and electricity consumption is very much at all. Especially when you consider that you have to buy something extra (The Kettle) to use the cheaper electricity. I think it would just be cheaper to forgo The Kettle and use a multipurpose pot to boil water. Then you avoid having to buy a Kettle every six months.

The difference in heat lost to the surroundings by a metal pan being heated by a flame an inch or so beneath it and a plastic container of water being heated by an immersed element is significant. In Britain being told that having a kettle is in any way an extravagance is like saying having a plate is an extravagance, can't you eat of a used magazine?
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:40 AM   #541
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I think it's something to do with our higher voltage mains supply.
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Old 30th November 2019, 06:50 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think it's something to do with our higher voltage mains supply.
That makes electric kettles a more practical solution, without sufficient power the transfer of energy is still efficient but the heating becomes slower (which reduces efficiency itself) but mostly just makes people not think they're worth the effort.
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Old 30th November 2019, 07:20 AM   #543
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I noticed when I was in America, in the electric appliances section of a big department store, that electric kettles were conspicuous by their absence. That would be unthinkable here. You can heat water quite well in a microwave mind you.
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Old 30th November 2019, 07:27 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It wasn't that long ago the poor person had the nowse to work out if your kettle was ****** you could just get a pot and boil some water on the hob or light a small fire and it achieves the same result.

I don't actually blame them for this as we seem to have a generation of thick parents working **** out wise
It costs more in gas to boil water on the hob than it does to boil the same amount in the electric kettle - I can see the difference on my smartmeter. I did address that in my posts.

I don't currently have a microwave as mine broke and I can't afford to replace it.

And the kettle thing is just one example of the way it costs more in the long run to have to buy cheaper items. It applies equally to boots or clothes or washing machines or can-openers or laptops or watches or batteries or pens or wheelchairs or furniture.
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Old 30th November 2019, 09:00 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think it's something to do with our higher voltage mains supply.
No it doesn't. 120V kettles are just as efficient as 240V kettles for the same power rating.
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Old 30th November 2019, 09:15 AM   #546
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I didn't mean the efficiency, I meant the time to boiling. If it takes twice as long to boil the kettle it maybe doesn't seem worth it.
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Old 30th November 2019, 09:30 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are getting back to taxing UBI again.

Benefits for children and whether they should be paid to parents or held in trust is a separate issue.

I was suggesting tax as a way of mitigating concerns about families with good incomes racking up too much, in preference to not making the UBI life-long. I think it should be life-long even if it means an adjustment to the parents' tax. I'd prefer that to means-testing the parents for child benefit.
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Old 30th November 2019, 09:32 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Something doesn’t click for me, re: The Kettle Scenario.

1. I can’t imagine the difference between gas consumption and electricity consumption is very much at all. Especially when you consider that you have to buy something extra (The Kettle) to use the cheaper electricity. I think it would just be cheaper to forgo The Kettle and use a multipurpose pot to boil water. Then you avoid having to buy a Kettle every six months.

2. Ok. You want a Kettle. Forgo the kettle for a little while and boil the water on the stove . Save up to get the 5 year Kettle. Break the cycle!

3. Is the necessity of a Kettle like a British thing?
It costs a lot more to use a flame to boil your water than it does to use an electric kettle so it is not just a matter of forgoing the convenience of a kettle for some time.
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Old 30th November 2019, 09:38 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It costs a lot more to use a flame to boil your water than it does to use an electric kettle so it is not just a matter of forgoing the convenience of a kettle for some time.
I switched to heating water on the stove a month ago when my electric kettle was forever ruined for me after I discovered a house centipede (Scutigera coleoptrata, Google that if you aren't somewhere that has these, and you'll understand) in it. I haven't noticed an increase in my gas bill. But I only heat up water once a day, perhaps two or three times on weekends.
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Old 30th November 2019, 10:02 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I noticed when I was in America, in the electric appliances section of a big department store, that electric kettles were conspicuous by their absence. That would be unthinkable here. You can heat water quite well in a microwave mind you.
Plenty of electric kettles over here, we just disguise most of them by calling them 'coffee makers'.
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Old 30th November 2019, 10:54 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That would be against the idea that the UBI has no strings attached.

If there are people who need more of a government handout than provided by the UBI then that should be a separate issue for the government to decide and it should have no effect on the UBI that is received.

For the same reason, I don't believe that UBI should be extended to children. Family allowances is again a separate issue.
I think I was comparing this to the higher rate proposed for people with disabilities, for which need would have to be demonstrated. However, it is true that this is based on assessment of earning capacity rather than a means test. If we assume that there is no means test to claim a higher rate for disability then there doesn't need to be one for older adults either. Private pensions or other income will still be taxable.
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Old 30th November 2019, 11:13 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't mean the efficiency, I meant the time to boiling. If it takes twice as long to boil the kettle it maybe doesn't seem worth it.
It takes the same time for a 120V kettle to boil as a 240V kettle if they have the same power rating.
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Old 30th November 2019, 11:14 AM   #553
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I think if you are of working age and unable to work due to disability, this has to be proved. However someone of retirement age should be assumed to be finished with work on account of age, and so no need has to be proved. This is my underlying assumption for the higher retirement rate.

Of course, if someone is forced to incur additional costs because of disability, higher payments based on demonstrated need should be available at all ages.
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Old 30th November 2019, 11:15 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It takes the same time for a 120V kettle to boil as a 240V kettle if they have the same power rating.

I didn't know that. I had heard differently. I wonder why Americans are so resistant to the things?
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Old 30th November 2019, 12:07 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't know that. I had heard differently. I wonder why Americans are so resistant to the things?
The "if they have the same power rating" was quite a big caveat. The maximum current in the US isn't double the current in the UK (UK 13A, US 15A or 20A, you don't want to exceed it so manufacturers are likely to design for 15) so the overall power available is lower (P=VxI). Referring just to the voltages is easier when explaining it casually to someone who doesn't need the details.

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Old 30th November 2019, 12:15 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
Plenty of electric kettles over here, we just disguise most of them by calling them 'coffee makers'.
Joke aside, most coffeemakers don't heat all the water in one go and being slower than a kettle is a feature not a bug as you want to give it time to soak through the grinds.
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Old 30th November 2019, 12:16 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
It costs more in gas to boil water on the hob than it does to boil the same amount in the electric kettle - I can see the difference on my smartmeter. I did address that in my posts.

I don't currently have a microwave as mine broke and I can't afford to replace it.

And the kettle thing is just one example of the way it costs more in the long run to have to buy cheaper items. It applies equally to boots or clothes or washing machines or can-openers or laptops or watches or batteries or pens or wheelchairs or furniture.

I think the post you're responding to was 'Poorsplaining'.
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Old 30th November 2019, 12:20 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I didn't know that. I had heard differently. I wonder why Americans are so resistant to the things?
Americans on average drink much more coffee than we do tea, so coffeemakers are ubiquitous as they can do both. Electric kettles are just in much less demand.
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Old 30th November 2019, 12:27 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Americans on average drink much more coffee than we do tea, so coffeemakers are ubiquitous as they can do both. Electric kettles are just in much less demand.
The real explanation is that the Scots do everything the best way and they've been evangelizing for decades, but Americans are just too stupid to ever get on Scotland's level.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

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Old 30th November 2019, 01:09 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Americans on average drink much more coffee than we do tea, so coffeemakers are ubiquitous as they can do both. Electric kettles are just in much less demand.
You make tea in a coffee maker? It can't steep.
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