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12th May 2011, 06:45 PM | #121 |
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You don't have to be stupid to make a false association.
Millions of children are going to become autistic regardless of whether their parents have it and regardless of whether they are vaccinated. In fact, with expanding diagnostic criteria, more and more kids will be considered "autistic" that wouldn't have been before. One group wants to expand the definition of "autism" to the point that 1 in 3 kids in America would now be included. You have yet to explain why profits are relevant in any way. |
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12th May 2011, 07:59 PM | #122 |
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I have a hypothesis that younger people are more likely to be anti-vaxxers than people around my age (56) because all of their lives they have benefited from herd immunity, and the younger ones have never known someone crippled or dead because they hadn't been immunized. MMR? Immunized the hard way for Mumps, and the easier way for Rubella (German Measles), which immunized me for Measles, which meant some time off from third grade but I had to stay away from pregnant women for a while. Diptheria? Had it. Pertussis (Whooping Cough)? Another "natural" immunity but I got my infants out of a McDonalds the moment I heard that telltale cough. Polio? Even back then there were anti-vaxxers, so a kid down the block was permanently crippled.
These were not rare diseases. Hell, EVERYBODY got at least some of them. And some died and some were crippled. Yet you never hear of them anymore, unless a group of anti-vaxxers have their way. Then they come back. Most folks my age realize the value of vaccines protecting our children and grandchildren. Clayton seems to not be one of them. Some younger people never lived in a world where childhood diseases were commonplace and seem incapable of imagining it. He doesn't seem to be able to remember it. Trust me, it was real, and even if there were a possibility that vaccines were a cause of autism, they would still be worth it. As they have been demonstrated to NOT be a cause, anti-vaxxer beliefs are grossly irresponsible. |
13th May 2011, 01:31 AM | #123 |
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As said, he cherry picked.
You have failed to address the Danish (or smaller Swedish) studies. If MMR was a factor in autism then why did neither of these studies (especially the Danish one) find any increase in autism rates amongst those children who had the jabs compared to those who hadn't? |
13th May 2011, 02:32 AM | #124 |
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There's another point that I can comment on from an anecdotal basis. My son, who is autistic, was very clearly autistic before his MMR vaccination - in fact, the first thing I ever noticed about him, within minutes of his birth, was that his responses and interactions weren't normal for a newborn baby. (It wasn't drug related because my wife didn't have any.) His MMR vaccination was an extremely traumatic experience, because we couldn't communicate with him effectively enough to reassure him that having a needle stuck in his arm wasn't going to cause him any long term harm, and his behaviour became a lot worse - meaning, effectively, a lot more autistic - immediately afterwards. If I hadn't already known that something wasunusual about his development, I could easily have made the false connection.
So, if another small child, already autistic, but not obviously so, goes for a vaccination, finds the experience traumatic because the impairment of his receptive communication makes him unable to receive the non-verbal signals of reassurance his parents are sending him - indeed, has never been able to receive these signals, leading to the high level of anxiety that's a classic feature of autism - and retreats, after the experience, to the rituals and repetitions that comfort him, and that his parents have never really seen as unusual before. But now he's doing it all a lot more, and it's too obvious to miss. And then they say, "But he wasn't doing anything like this before the vaccination." He was, but it didn't reach the significance threshold, so they didn't realise he was autistic. Personally, I suspect that's the reason for the association. But it's only my opinion, and it's based on anecdotal evidence, so feel free to take it with a pinch of salt. Dave |
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13th May 2011, 06:01 AM | #125 |
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13th May 2011, 06:06 AM | #126 |
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I've never looked at is this way before, but it seems reasonable.
If an autistic child can traumatized by such a seemingly innocuous social interaction as a hug, then imagine how he would react to having a strange man grab his arm and stick a sharp metal object into it. |
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13th May 2011, 07:06 AM | #127 |
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13th May 2011, 07:10 AM | #128 |
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13th May 2011, 07:11 AM | #129 |
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13th May 2011, 07:14 AM | #130 |
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13th May 2011, 08:34 AM | #131 |
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13th May 2011, 08:47 AM | #132 |
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13th May 2011, 09:04 AM | #133 |
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Isn't it obvious? They get exposed to the same air vaccinated people are breathing!
Ok, now to be actually serious... Anti-Vaxxers are beyond ignorance : they manage to reach that rare level of criminal stupidity. About two years ago, some moron had the guts to claim that POLIO wasn't a serious illness, and that the vaccine wasn't important - to my uncle's face. He has a lame leg and poor mobility in the other one due to Polio, and he got off lucky - a friend of his got tetraplegic. |
13th May 2011, 09:08 AM | #134 |
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To be fair to a group of people that includes some friends of mine, most parents of autistic children are stressed and exhausted to the point where they can barely spell MMR, and would desperately like to find a reason why their lives have had this extraordinary burden heaped on top of them. Expecting calm and rational analysis from them is expecting a little too much.
Dave |
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13th May 2011, 11:17 AM | #135 |
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13th May 2011, 11:28 AM | #136 |
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13th May 2011, 11:35 AM | #137 |
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13th May 2011, 11:50 AM | #138 |
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13th May 2011, 12:45 PM | #139 |
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13th May 2011, 04:57 PM | #140 |
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13th May 2011, 05:13 PM | #141 |
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13th May 2011, 05:59 PM | #142 |
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13th May 2011, 07:02 PM | #143 |
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13th May 2011, 07:05 PM | #144 |
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16th May 2011, 01:43 AM | #145 |
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Well, the fact that Lorna Wing first published the definitive work on autism in 1969, on which all subsequent diagnoses are based, might be a bit of a clue. Before 1970, nobody understood the triad of autistic impairments, because it had never been identified, so diagnosis was pretty much hit-or-miss. Don't forget, the use of the word to describe an abnormal neurological development didn't even exist until 1943, and it wasn't until Wing's work throughout the 1960's that we really began to understand what autism really is. Since about 1970, diagnosis has continued to become more reliable, and it's quite common for people who would have been diagnosed as autistic in childhood, had we had the same level of understanding then as we have now, to be diagnosed later in life.
Short answer: There's no epidemic. They've always been there, we just haven't identified them correctly. Dave |
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16th May 2011, 07:57 AM | #146 |
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Good point.
Quite possibly what is happening is a genetic weakening caused by vaccines. Today's babies would be the 3rd wave of vaccine recipients. Third generation so to speak. First generation 1960- 5? age? Second generation 1980- 10 before the age of 5 Third generation 2000- 36 vaccines even younger Parents could be weakened genetically by the vaccines and pass the weakness to their children. The children, who are getting even more vaccines at a younger age, would be more prone to autism. Times that by two or three and genetic predisposition becomes reality. http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/01/t...nd-autism.html
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16th May 2011, 08:15 AM | #147 |
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16th May 2011, 08:19 AM | #148 |
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16th May 2011, 08:20 AM | #149 |
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16th May 2011, 09:02 AM | #150 |
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"genetic weakening" Sounds like a racial purist trying to sound scientific.
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16th May 2011, 09:07 AM | #151 |
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16th May 2011, 09:24 AM | #152 |
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First generation 1960- 5? age? Second generation 1980- 10 before the age of 5 Third generation 2000- 36 vaccines even younger I remember getting 7 shots in an hour, the "flying seven," in the Navy in my teens. I can't believe you people believe multiple vaccines are absolutely, unquestionably safe to give to to babies and toddlers. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/sch...d-schedule.htm 22 shots before the age of 2!!! http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/...on_chart.html#
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16th May 2011, 09:29 AM | #153 |
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16th May 2011, 09:30 AM | #154 |
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16th May 2011, 09:33 AM | #155 |
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Since nobody's claiming any such thing, I'm not surprised you can't believe it. But please keep punching, there's almost enough straw flying now.
Vaccines have been tested. In particular, a great deal of work has been done to determine whether the MMR vaccine produces an increase in the prevalence of autism. It has been found not to. The people operating purely from a belief are the ones who reject the evidence, and believe that the MMR vaccine unquestionably causes autism. Dave |
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16th May 2011, 09:40 AM | #156 |
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16th May 2011, 09:47 AM | #157 |
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16th May 2011, 09:54 AM | #158 |
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And yet?
http://www.bloomingtonalternative.com/node/10560
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Vaccine Program/Office of Special Claims http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccin...pecial-masters |
16th May 2011, 10:06 AM | #159 |
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Sometimes people are harmed by vaccines, but overall the benefit outweighs the harm.
That doesn't mean vaccines cause autism. Just like... Sometimes people are harmed by motor vehicles, but overall the benefit outweighs the harm. That doesn't mean motor vehicles cause autism. And... Sometimes people are harmed by water, but overall the benefit outweighs the harm. That doesn't mean water causes autism. And so on, and so on. |
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To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens. |
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16th May 2011, 10:25 AM | #160 |
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I recommend THE STRANGE STORY OF THE QUANTUM by
Banesh Hoffmann for those of you who think science/medicine cannot advance via a path of wrong thinking. |
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