|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
3rd March 2013, 02:22 PM | #4161 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,689
|
I clearly stated what I think.
When somebody tries to sell you on "we don't know" in regards to a new disease/condition/malady, unlike anything in history, it has a cause. And it's going to be something people did that caused it. Our technology isn't some primitive guessing game. In regards to autism, clearly there is a cause, and the foggy mysterious "nobody knows" conversations are the hallmarks of ignorance, not science. GWS is a fine example of how simple minded some people are in these matters. You have this new malady that strikes a limited population, a healthy population, and then you hear from the authorities it isn't real. Then when it can't be denied, it becomes a mystery. Exactly like autism. |
3rd March 2013, 02:32 PM | #4162 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
Clayton Moore: Cite the studies showing the links between the MMR jab and autism
You keep on saying this without actually supporting it so I will see how long it is before you actually support it with real evidence other than your rumor about anecdotes from parents !
Clayton Moore, please cite the valid scientific studies showing the links between the MMR vaccine and autism. Remember that a valid answer is that there are none. First asked 4 March 2013 (0 days and counting) Actually since you wrote this on 31st May 2011 I should really have: 643 days and counting ! P.S. In case your question has not been answered - there are many such studies. For example, from 2002: A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism studied 537,303 Danish children.
Quote:
Do Vaccines Cause Autism?
Quote:
|
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
3rd March 2013, 02:38 PM | #4163 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
3rd March 2013, 02:40 PM | #4164 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
Clayton Moore.
You should read up on the topic of this thread and that it has nothing to do with your derail of "we can't figure out what caused the GWS". This makes it look like you are unable to tell the difference between autism and GWS. The next derail about anthrax is even more ridiculous! |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
3rd March 2013, 02:40 PM | #4165 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 581
|
I beg to differ. It's not very clear which bits of your posts contain your views and which contain positions you ascribe to others. Nor is it clear what your actual views are. Let alone how you came to them. I'll assume my earlier efforts at working out what your arguments are were pretty much on the mark. That being the case, I can now say: you're talking nonsense. The position you ascribe to others (that nothing bad could even happen, in regards to vaccines) is a straw man rather than the position that posters you disagree with actually hold. Your claim that the purported link between anthrax vaccines and GWS was simply hand-waved away is ludicrous. It was, in fact, carefully researched and found not to have any basis in reality.
|
__________________
Bumbling charlatan |
|
3rd March 2013, 02:44 PM | #4166 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,689
|
Don't attribute things that I did not say. That is dirty pool and makes you look ignorant. Just quote what you disagree with. Don't make things up. It's against the rules.
|
3rd March 2013, 02:47 PM | #4167 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
|
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...child-born-hiv
"US doctors cure child born with HIV" "Doctors in the US have made medical history by effectively curing a child born with HIV, the first time such a case has been documented. The infant, who is now two and a half, needs no medication for HIV, has a normal life expectancy and is highly unlikely to be infectious to others, doctors believe. Though medical staff and scientists are unclear why the treatment was effective, the surprise success has raised hopes that the therapy might ultimately help doctors eradicate the virus among newborns. Doctors did not release the name or sex of the child to protect the patient's identity, but said the infant was born, and lived, in Mississippi state. Details of the case were unveiled on Sunday at the Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections in Atlanta. |
3rd March 2013, 02:52 PM | #4168 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,689
|
Autism, which the thread clearly is obsessed over, is a very contentious issue. Even the number of cases is foggy and unclear.
Has it increased a lot of late? Was it as new condition or has it always been around? What is the medical test to confirm it? What brain changes are observed during the decline? The cases where children lose the abilities they had? What causes the seizures? Why can't anyone state the real rate? If the rate is increasing it's a serious problem, and obviously has a human cause to it. Are there populations with little or no autism? Why is it all such a huge mystery? |
3rd March 2013, 02:53 PM | #4169 |
Muse
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 897
|
Hmmmm, so HIV and the lyme's disease bacteria were created by humans? What else?
So what's the maximum amount of time that it should take of scientists to figure something out? That it, at what point has some much time passed that "scientists are still genuinely trying to figure it out" cease to be possible? |
3rd March 2013, 02:57 PM | #4170 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
|
|
3rd March 2013, 03:02 PM | #4171 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 581
|
I asked you for clarification, you said none was needed. I posted what I thought were your positions and you did not correct me.
If I have attributed things to you that you did not intend to convey I'd suggest that you take your share of responsibility for that. By the way, if you're against making things up, I'm sure you'd now like to retract those things you posted earlier. You know - the bits where you made things up. |
__________________
Bumbling charlatan |
|
3rd March 2013, 03:13 PM | #4172 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 28,521
|
What is obvuous, r-j?
What is obvious to me is that this is a thread about autism. I hope that it is obvious to you as well ! What is obvious to me is that Clayton Moore has been avoiding (for almost 2 years now) the fact that there is no valid evidence linking the MMR vaccine to autism. I hope that it is obvious to you that there is no scientific link ! As for this anthrax stuff - it has been covered before in this thread. Clayton Moore's link is obviously, doubly bad. It is to an anti-vax site that misrepresents the source and displays its paranoia about vaccines (wow - the anthrax vaccine has adverse effects !). As an example of the ignorance of the poeple writing threre - they do not think that any "official" vaccinated vs Unvaccinated studies have been done for autism! As I cited before from 2002: A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism studied 537,303 Danish children. The source is the Washington Post dated October 29, 2011 (Federal advisers endorse testing anthrax vaccine in children). The article is about passing the ethical questions about the issue to another panel over a year ago. |
__________________
NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
|
3rd March 2013, 04:50 PM | #4173 |
Perfectly Poisonous Person
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West
Posts: 4,432
|
It has always been around. See Not Even Wrong and Unstrange Minds.
Quote:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/d...t_syndrome.htm
Quote:
|
__________________
I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ |
|
3rd March 2013, 06:33 PM | #4174 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Near Wa-Wa-Wachusett
Posts: 1,052
|
Cancer has been around for quite a while, and we still haven't figured out how to cure it, only treat it, force it into remission. And some forms still have us completely beaten.
And of course this thread is obsessed with Autism, it's in the thread title. |
3rd March 2013, 07:50 PM | #4175 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,305
|
The prevalence of ASDs has increased considerably in the last twenty years. Most cases have been "higher-functioning", some have been the result of diagnostic substitution, i.e. mental retardation diagnoses have declined during the same time and some DSM diagnoses have been eliminated.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It has a human cause only to the extent that humans have babies and autism has been around for as long as anyone can know; it didn't spontaneously arise. If you are suggesting that it's purely environmental (and to some degree it may be but not in the way you think) then why didn't autism prevalence explode during the industrial revolution? As for environmental causes, there are some studies that indicate some drugs taken during pregnancy can alter foetal neurological development and a higher risk of autism and there are some studies that indicate that maternal obesity is a risk factor for autism development. Anti-vaxxers don't like those though because it isn't vaccinesdidit and in their tortured minds, puts the blame on themselves.
Quote:
Quote:
Este |
3rd March 2013, 08:05 PM | #4176 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
I also failed to fully understand your first post, so clarifying would help several folks. More so, just please pick one topic at a time and explain your position and any evidence for it.
A hallmark of science is to say "nobody knows" when appropriate. That is largely true of GWS: scientists have proposed causes, but no one cause seems to explain it all. So nobody knows the whole story yet. We do know a it about what causes some autism: genetics. We know what doesn't: vaccines. |
3rd March 2013, 09:32 PM | #4177 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
3rd March 2013, 10:04 PM | #4178 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
Vaccine/autism CT discussion
NOT Vaccine causes autism CT discussion Discussing Anthrax vaccine and GWS brings in the disregard for PEOPLE when things go wrong from medical treatment or environmental emergency. The US/UK government/CDC/FDA/GMC damage control step 1 is to say nothing is wrong, go about your business. |
3rd March 2013, 10:50 PM | #4179 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
They did try the experiment and autism increased when MMR was banned:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-in-japan.html Don't you remember: this was brought up in this very thread quite a few times already. Isn't this the test you are proposing? And the result: MMR doesn't cause autism. |
3rd March 2013, 10:55 PM | #4180 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
There is no way in purgatory that the US government doesn't know what caused GWS. The same type cover-up has taken place with infant/toddler autism victims for over 30 years. They say parents aren't qualified to link their child's autism with the child's MMR jab. They said for over 30 years they couldn't figure out the cause of infant/toddler autism. They said, at first, the GWS victims were malingerers. They still say they can't figure out the cause of GWS. |
3rd March 2013, 10:55 PM | #4181 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
GMC? General Motors Corp? Gay Men's Chorus? Sorry, you lost me on the last one...
Edit: got it: General Medical Council, right? My God, what an evil, multinational, coordinated conspiracy it must be! And that doesn't even include the millions of private doctors, state, and non- government researchers. And not one human being, not one, among them willing to speak out and crumble the conspiracy! Horrors! |
3rd March 2013, 10:59 PM | #4182 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
3rd March 2013, 11:10 PM | #4183 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
These arguments of yours seem vaguely familiar. Oh yes, you've brought them up over and overage over again, and people have pointed out why you were incorrect, We just had the whole "parents seeing autism in their kids after vaccination" discussion yet again. If you think that you are, in fact correct on one or more of these discredited issues, the next step would be for you to provide new evidence in support of your side. Otherwise you've just run out of things to say.
|
3rd March 2013, 11:12 PM | #4184 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
|
3rd March 2013, 11:53 PM | #4185 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
4th March 2013, 12:21 AM | #4186 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
4th March 2013, 01:57 AM | #4187 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 57,668
|
What a bizarre way to explain. If you're going to give link, rather than simply state what you meant, why the link to their audioboo page rather than their home page or wikipedia entry?
|
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
|
4th March 2013, 02:04 AM | #4188 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
4th March 2013, 02:10 AM | #4189 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
|
4th March 2013, 02:56 AM | #4190 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
4th March 2013, 03:32 AM | #4191 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
4th March 2013, 03:34 AM | #4192 |
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,508
|
|
4th March 2013, 03:49 AM | #4193 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
|
We have all reviewed the thread and you have provided no VALID evidence whatsoever for a link between MMR and Autism
|
4th March 2013, 03:53 AM | #4194 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
|
|
4th March 2013, 07:04 AM | #4195 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,689
|
It's easy enough to see how bad communication happens. I stated clearly what I thought
and it gets turned into Of course it might be a malicious bit of misdirection, but I doubt it. Even so, it might help if we all learn that Lyme disease is just a new name for erythema migrans, which was known about for a long time. And HIV, like SV40, no matter which theory you believe in, was introduced into the worlds population by human activities. It certainly matches what I said. When something new, unlike anything known in the history of medicine, just appears if you will, you can be sure it was because of human activities. Be it smallpox raging through the new world, or some tropical death showing up in New York city, it's people causing it. The CT is that "things just happen", which is of no small comfort, especially if the persons responsible might end up in court. |
4th March 2013, 07:06 AM | #4196 |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,689
|
The link between sudden onset autism and the MMR vaccine is obvious and abundant.
|
4th March 2013, 07:09 AM | #4197 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
|
|
4th March 2013, 07:58 AM | #4198 |
Perfectly Poisonous Person
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West
Posts: 4,432
|
What evidence did Wakefield have to suggest single vaccines? It was not in his Lancet paper.
Actually the completely stopped giving any version of measles and mumps. The MMR vaccine was introduced in the USA in 1971. So if there is an obvious and abundant evidence that it causes autism there would be some from the 1970s and 1980s. Please present the scientific documentation dated before the 1990s. |
__________________
I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/ |
|
4th March 2013, 08:04 AM | #4199 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,305
|
Erythema migrans is a symptom of Lyme Disease experienced by a small percentage of those infected with B. burgdorferi, not a re-naming of the disease.
Quote:
Quote:
Este |
4th March 2013, 08:15 AM | #4200 |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
|
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|