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22nd September 2012, 05:41 PM | #2161 |
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22nd September 2012, 05:48 PM | #2162 |
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22nd September 2012, 06:02 PM | #2163 |
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22nd September 2012, 08:04 PM | #2164 |
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50 years ago? It is more likely that today's medical technology would have saved his daughter.
Think about this. If bed rest and a dark room were pretty much the remedy for measles in 1960 don't you think science could head off complications after 50 years? How many trillions of dollars has the American public spent on measles vaccines?
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$360,000,000,000 = $.36 trillion. I think it's safe to say that every year vaccines cost Americans way more than the yearly national budget. Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them. |
22nd September 2012, 08:21 PM | #2165 |
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Pretty good... still like mine better, of course.
It doesn't take much for me to regain my strength for this particular battle. I just think about my mom, 82 years old, and her stories about the scourge diseases like polio were during her childhood in the 1930s and 40s, and the fact I don't have similar stories to tell my daughter about my childhood in the 1970s and 80s. |
22nd September 2012, 08:39 PM | #2166 |
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Pray tell, Mr Moore, what wonderful piece of modern medical technology could have saved her? Is there a Measles zapping laser? Perhaps there's an anti-measles app for doctor's iPhones?
Do doctors today fight viruses with hardware?
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
The greatest danger is the anti-vax crowd. |
22nd September 2012, 10:30 PM | #2167 |
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22nd September 2012, 10:30 PM | #2168 |
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Total number of births per year in USA = approximately 4,000,000
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/20...e-in-2010.html Cost of all recommended vaccinations per year = approximately $1,170 http://children.costhelper.com/baby-immunization.html Total cost of vaccines in USA per year (the first multiplied by the second) = $4,880,000,000 (that is 2.88 billion, or .288 trillion, or less than one thousandth the USA annual budget). Clayton, you seem to have made an error of nearly 100-fold in your calculations. And in comparison, value of being alive and healthy: priceless. |
22nd September 2012, 10:45 PM | #2169 |
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Sure, because who would want to never have a disease if the opportunity of becoming sick, but eventually recovering, is offered to them? Which diseases do you like to acquire and be cured of, Clayton?
By the way, why do you trust big pharma to discover and offer these cures when they are too immoral to tell "the truth" about vaccines? Why do you think these cures will be safer than vaccines, when typically the drugs already used to cure diseases have significantly more side effects than vaccines? Also, so finally you admit that you think all vaccines are bad! Okay, thanks- that helps me understand you better in the future of this thread. So its not, as you have claimed at different times, that too many vaccines are injected at one time, or that the MMR vaccine is bad, or the anthrax vaccine is bad, or aluminum, or formalin, or whatever! You believe all vaccines are bad or wastes of money and the money spent should go into cures after one acquires a disease. It took a long time for you to be willing to state that. |
22nd September 2012, 10:55 PM | #2170 |
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23rd September 2012, 12:16 AM | #2171 |
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That would seem to be the total for babies in their first year. 4,000,000 x 1170 = 4,680,000,000 You forgot 4 million babies a year add up via adolescence to about 72 non-adults getting vaccines. For balance I used only 52 million or so. 12 x 4,680,000,000 + 4,680,000,000 $60,840,000,000 360,000,000,000 is the cost of flu vaccine for 100 million people. |
23rd September 2012, 12:22 AM | #2172 |
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No, it isn't, even using your own figures.
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== $12,000,000,000 Twelve billion, not .36 trillion. ETA: And are you sure you're not doubling up? Does the $60 cost of the vaccine not include giving it? Here supermarket pharmacies and other places will administer it, you don't need to go to the doctor for it (and I got it free from my employer). |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 Last edited by zooterkin; 23rd September 2012 at 12:36 AM. Reason: Fixed: .36 trillion, not 360 trillion was claimed |
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23rd September 2012, 12:30 AM | #2173 |
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The Role of Cost-Effectiveness in U.S. Vaccination Policy
Today, the schedule of recommended routine child and adolescent vaccines includes more than 30 doses against 16 diseases — more than double the number in 1980. The public-sector cost of fully vaccinating one person as recommended through adulthood (not including annual influenza vaccines) is roughly $1,450 for males and $1,800 for females, of which the HPV and meningococcal vaccinations alone account for more than 25% at current prices. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1110539 This article, from 2011, may provide some insight into the public sector cost. |
23rd September 2012, 12:35 AM | #2174 |
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Do you actually read responses to your posts? The answer remains the same as it was the last time you exposed your incredulity.
None, probably.
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To be clear, are you claiming that vaccination never works in preventing any disease? |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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23rd September 2012, 01:17 AM | #2175 |
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23rd September 2012, 01:22 AM | #2176 |
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And if we extend that graph to the present, how many upwards trends do we see after vaccinations are introduced? You know like the ones we can see BEFORE vaccination?
If we extend that chart backwards, we see a number of peaks and troughs, that we can all a Frequency of Events. What has the Frequency become? See. Statistics are fun. |
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23rd September 2012, 01:26 AM | #2177 |
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23rd September 2012, 01:30 AM | #2178 |
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23rd September 2012, 01:32 AM | #2179 |
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23rd September 2012, 01:34 AM | #2180 |
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Ah look, my question is already answered: Zero. The frequency of events is zero since we started vaccinating. No sudden spikes, no gradual climbs, vaccination has had the effect of preventing further outbreaks, just like we expected.
In the case of polio we can be more specific. We not only know there was a downwards trend in cases, we know WHY: We know that the cause of polio had been identified and that people were taking preventative measures to avoid exposure. We also know the effect this had on the quality of life. We could even be very clever and look at the decreased incident rate of Polio with the exposures to what would have been considered Risk Factors before vaccination. We could for example ask if those people who are not being infected because of vaccination have been exposed to swimming pools and the "clean water curse". Or we could have some common sense and ask when the vaccine will be most effective at illiminating the bug. If introduced on an upwards or downwards trend? A downwards trend is the obvious choice for obvious reasons. Pretending that the vaccines have zero effect and the downwards trend would have ended in a plateau, despite the peaks and troughs visible before vaccination, is unfounded. |
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23rd September 2012, 01:37 AM | #2181 |
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There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today. Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations. Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead. And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.
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23rd September 2012, 01:42 AM | #2182 |
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Exactly wrong.
At the start of an epidcemic is NOT when you want vaccinations. BEFORE the epidemic to PREVENT the epidemic is when you want the vaccine. Why wpould you wait until the vaccine was least viable, instead of building herd immmunity? Especially in a world of jet travel and international commuting? You want people to die BEFORE you offer everybody else the preventative vaccine? You know what, go watch Smallpox 2002. It's a drama, but at least its a more realistic fiction that your ideas. |
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23rd September 2012, 01:43 AM | #2183 |
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@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
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23rd September 2012, 01:44 AM | #2184 |
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@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
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23rd September 2012, 02:17 AM | #2185 |
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I didn't know about the whooping cough epidemic and so I Googled it.
http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/outbreaks.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ough-outbreak/ http://kablooey.org/2012/07/24/why-all-the-pertussis/
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...c-in-70-years/ |
23rd September 2012, 02:47 AM | #2186 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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23rd September 2012, 03:10 AM | #2187 |
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The concept of vaccines is kinda fine and dandy. But the "one size fits all" implementation ain't science by a long shot.
The human body is complex and whipping up a batch of vaccine for a virus using the vaccine rules of the road is little more than some witch doctor brewing up a potion. |
23rd September 2012, 03:49 AM | #2188 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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23rd September 2012, 04:25 AM | #2189 |
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23rd September 2012, 04:46 AM | #2190 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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23rd September 2012, 04:52 AM | #2191 |
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
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23rd September 2012, 05:29 AM | #2192 |
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23rd September 2012, 05:30 AM | #2193 |
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23rd September 2012, 05:31 AM | #2194 |
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23rd September 2012, 05:34 AM | #2195 |
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23rd September 2012, 06:03 AM | #2196 |
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@tomhodden Never look up an E-book because this signature line told you. Especially not Dead Lament (ASIN: B00JEN1MWY). Or A Little Trouble (ASIN: B00GQFZZQW). |
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23rd September 2012, 06:11 AM | #2197 |
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23rd September 2012, 06:39 AM | #2198 |
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Today's medical technology includes vaccines.
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23rd September 2012, 06:51 AM | #2199 |
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Do you have one that continues to the present day? Are you going to address the graph Tomblvd posted with the number dropping sharply after vaccines were introduced? Do you have any sites other than anti-vaxxers? Primary sources, maybe?
I'm also noting a complete lack of backup for the herd immunity claim, or the alteration of the numbers. Yes, you are. Thing is, without vaccines, there's no "herd immunity", and, eventually, a resurgence in smallpox. Yes, you're just full of those. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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Amazing how you think an experimental vaccine will have the same effects as one that's gone through decades of testing and refinement. I note that you don't actually present any statistics. |
23rd September 2012, 06:53 AM | #2200 |
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