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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 22nd September 2012, 05:41 PM   #2161
Arisia
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Originally Posted by Straw Man View Post
Not even herd immunity can save you from that.

Which reminds me, where were we on the subject?
A cutesy way to put it: "Vaccines cause immunity, not autism."

Last edited by Arisia; 22nd September 2012 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 05:48 PM   #2162
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Originally Posted by Arisia View Post
A cutesy way to put it: "Vaccines cause immunity, not autism."
Brilliant!
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Old 22nd September 2012, 06:02 PM   #2163
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Originally Posted by Straw Man View Post
Not even herd immunity can save you from that.

Which reminds me, where were we on the subject?
Diseases are wonderful, vaccines are bad.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 08:04 PM   #2164
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
It's a percentage game; those diseases are milder if you have them young, but they can still be deadly or very serious in their effects, but rarely enough that it's quite possible not to personally know anyone so affected. For example, Roald Dahl lost his daughter to measles because vaccination wasn't available. Vaccination is also not totally risk-free, but the numbers are whole lot more favourable than having children catch the diseases when young.

I wasn't aware of parties to spread diseases when I was young, and was fairly shocked when I heard of the idea much more recently. One of things I must remember to ask my mum about. On the other hand, my sister and I seemed to pick up all the common diseases without trying too hard.
50 years ago? It is more likely that today's medical technology would have saved his daughter.

Think about this. If bed rest and a dark room were pretty much the remedy for measles in 1960 don't you think science could head off complications after 50 years?

How many trillions of dollars has the American public spent on measles vaccines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
It's more like not rocking the boat or not shaking the money tree when the non elites are looking.

A million or so laid out for research with a desired result is less than a butterfly wing in the animal world. About 100 million flu shots a year at $60 a pop + $60 a visit to the doctor.

$360,000,000,000


That's one vaccine.
Obama's budget total a record $3.8 trillion

$360,000,000,000 = $.36 trillion.


I think it's safe to say that every year vaccines cost Americans way more than the yearly national budget.


Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them.

Last edited by Clayton Moore; 22nd September 2012 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 08:21 PM   #2165
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Diseases are wonderful, vaccines are bad.
Pretty good... still like mine better, of course.




It doesn't take much for me to regain my strength for this particular battle. I just think about my mom, 82 years old, and her stories about the scourge diseases like polio were during her childhood in the 1930s and 40s, and the fact I don't have similar stories to tell my daughter about my childhood in the 1970s and 80s.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 08:39 PM   #2166
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
50 years ago? It is more likely that today's medical technology would have saved his daughter.

Think about this. If bed rest and a dark room were pretty much the remedy for measles in 1960 don't you think science could head off complications after 50 years?
Pray tell, Mr Moore, what wonderful piece of modern medical technology could have saved her? Is there a Measles zapping laser? Perhaps there's an anti-measles app for doctor's iPhones?

Do doctors today fight viruses with hardware?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
How many trillions of dollars has the American public spent on measles vaccines?



Obama's budget total a record $3.8 trillion

$360,000,000,000 = $.36 trillion.


I think it's safe to say that every year vaccines cost Americans way more than the yearly national budget.
Some official figures would be good, instead of woo.


Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them.
Haphazardly? Smallpox is gone. Polio has vanished from most of the world, and if the backward thinking regions of the world are overcome, and vaccination takes place, it will be gone.

The greatest danger is the anti-vax crowd.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 10:30 PM   #2167
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them.

"The best offense is a good defense."
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
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Old 22nd September 2012, 10:30 PM   #2168
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
50 years ago? It is more likely that today's medical technology would have saved his daughter.

Think about this. If bed rest and a dark room were pretty much the remedy for measles in 1960 don't you think science could head off complications after 50 years?

How many trillions of dollars has the American public spent on measles vaccines?



Obama's budget total a record $3.8 trillion

$360,000,000,000 = $.36 trillion.


I think it's safe to say that every year vaccines cost Americans way more than the yearly national budget.


Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them.
Total number of births per year in USA = approximately 4,000,000
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/20...e-in-2010.html

Cost of all recommended vaccinations per year = approximately $1,170
http://children.costhelper.com/baby-immunization.html

Total cost of vaccines in USA per year (the first multiplied by the second) = $4,880,000,000 (that is 2.88 billion, or .288 trillion, or less than one thousandth the USA annual budget).

Clayton, you seem to have made an error of nearly 100-fold in your calculations.

And in comparison, value of being alive and healthy: priceless.

Last edited by Giordano; 22nd September 2012 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 10:45 PM   #2169
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them.
Sure, because who would want to never have a disease if the opportunity of becoming sick, but eventually recovering, is offered to them? Which diseases do you like to acquire and be cured of, Clayton?

By the way, why do you trust big pharma to discover and offer these cures when they are too immoral to tell "the truth" about vaccines? Why do you think these cures will be safer than vaccines, when typically the drugs already used to cure diseases have significantly more side effects than vaccines?

Also, so finally you admit that you think all vaccines are bad! Okay, thanks- that helps me understand you better in the future of this thread. So its not, as you have claimed at different times, that too many vaccines are injected at one time, or that the MMR vaccine is bad, or the anthrax vaccine is bad, or aluminum, or formalin, or whatever! You believe all vaccines are bad or wastes of money and the money spent should go into cures after one acquires a disease. It took a long time for you to be willing to state that.
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Old 22nd September 2012, 10:55 PM   #2170
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
50 years ago? It is more likely that today's medical technology would have saved his daughter.

Think about this. If bed rest and a dark room were pretty much the remedy for measles in 1960 don't you think science could head off complications after 50 years?
Yes, because nowadays we give a vaccine, which would have prevented the deadly form of the disease, thus saving her life, at the same time preventing a large hospital bill.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 12:16 AM   #2171
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Total number of births per year in USA = approximately 4,000,000
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/20...e-in-2010.html

Cost of all recommended vaccinations per year = approximately $1,170
http://children.costhelper.com/baby-immunization.html

Total cost of vaccines in USA per year (the first multiplied by the second) = $4,880,000,000 (that is 2.88 billion, or .288 trillion, or less than one thousandth the USA annual budget).

Clayton, you seem to have made an error of nearly 100-fold in your calculations.

And in comparison, value of being alive and healthy: priceless.

That would seem to be the total for babies in their first year.

4,000,000 x 1170 = 4,680,000,000

You forgot 4 million babies a year add up via adolescence to about 72 non-adults getting vaccines. For balance I used only 52 million or so.

12 x 4,680,000,000 + 4,680,000,000 $60,840,000,000

360,000,000,000 is the cost of flu vaccine for 100 million people.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 12:22 AM   #2172
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
That would seem to be the total for babies in their first year.

4,000,000 x 1170 = 4,680,000,000

You forgot 4 million babies a year add up via adolescence to about 72 non-adults getting vaccines. For balance I used only 52 million or so.

12 x 4,680,000,000 + 4,680,000,000 $60,840,000,000

360,000,000,000 is the cost of flu vaccine for 100 million people.
No, it isn't, even using your own figures.

Quote:
100 million flu shots a year at $60 a pop + $60 a visit to the doctor.
is $120 * 100 million

== $12,000,000,000

Twelve billion, not .36 trillion.

ETA: And are you sure you're not doubling up? Does the $60 cost of the vaccine not include giving it? Here supermarket pharmacies and other places will administer it, you don't need to go to the doctor for it (and I got it free from my employer).
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Last edited by zooterkin; 23rd September 2012 at 12:36 AM. Reason: Fixed: .36 trillion, not 360 trillion was claimed
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Old 23rd September 2012, 12:30 AM   #2173
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The Role of Cost-Effectiveness in U.S. Vaccination Policy

Today, the schedule of recommended routine child and adolescent vaccines includes more than 30 doses against 16 diseases — more than double the number in 1980. The public-sector cost of fully vaccinating one person as recommended through adulthood (not including annual influenza vaccines) is roughly $1,450 for males and $1,800 for females, of which the HPV and meningococcal vaccinations alone account for more than 25% at current prices.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1110539

This article, from 2011, may provide some insight into the public sector cost.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 12:35 AM   #2174
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
50 years ago? It is more likely that today's medical technology would have saved his daughter.

Think about this. If bed rest and a dark room were pretty much the remedy for measles in 1960 don't you think science could head off complications after 50 years?
Do you actually read responses to your posts? The answer remains the same as it was the last time you exposed your incredulity.
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
It's 2012. Why should anyone die of measles in the USA in the same numbers as they did in the 1950s?
There is no treatment for measles once a child has it. Fewer children die of it now because most are vaccinated against it and therefore do not catch the disease.
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
How many trillions of dollars has the American public spent on measles vaccines?
None, probably.

Quote:
Obama's budget total a record $3.8 trillion

$360,000,000,000 = $.36 trillion.


I think it's safe to say that every year vaccines cost Americans way more than the yearly national budget.
I think it's safe to say you need to work on your simple arithmetic.
Quote:
Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them.
Well, I might agree with you if that's what was going on.

To be clear, are you claiming that vaccination never works in preventing any disease?
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:17 AM   #2175
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Originally Posted by 000063 View Post
I find it interesting that you only cited a definition after I cited one that contradicted you.

http://www.nhs.uk/Planners/vaccinati...cinations.aspx
If enough people in a community are vaccinated, it’s harder for a disease to pass between those who are not. This is called herd immunity.

Herd immunity is particularly important in protecting people who can't get vaccinated because they're too ill or they're having treatment that damages their immune system.
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/topics/page...yimmunity.aspx

When a critical portion of a community is immunized against a contagious disease, most members of the community are protected against that disease because there is little opportunity for an outbreak. Even those who are not eligible for certain vaccines—such as infants, pregnant women, or immunocompromised individuals—get some protection because the spread of contagious disease is contained. This is known as "community immunity."
Please provide evidence for your claim that polio was in decline when mass vaccs started. I want actual evidence, not your claims. Please also provide evidence that the decline after mass vaccs started was due to herd immunity. And don't even bother with "look for yourself" or any other attempt to shift the burden of proof, or I will call you a sophist.

And, just like I said, you avoided proving that "the statistical numbers are often cooked", despite quoting me predicting you would backpedal.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:22 AM   #2176
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
And if we extend that graph to the present, how many upwards trends do we see after vaccinations are introduced? You know like the ones we can see BEFORE vaccination?

If we extend that chart backwards, we see a number of peaks and troughs, that we can all a Frequency of Events. What has the Frequency become?

See. Statistics are fun.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:26 AM   #2177
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Why are there no cases of smallpox today?
Smallpox vaccine was a good idea when there was a smallpox epidemic, but today, it is a very bad idea.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:30 AM   #2178
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
And they don't get polio because they have been vaccinated. Why are you a fan of these horrid diseases?
Not at all. But there is a lot of brainwash out there concerning vaccinations. Just seeking to impart some balance with uncensored facts.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:32 AM   #2179
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Then why do you continue to lie?



Again, since you didn't address the question, do you find that really preferable that thousands of people die horribly from disease that might otherwise be saved? If so, why so?
No. That's why when considering whether to vaccinate, it is always wise to think twice.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:34 AM   #2180
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Originally Posted by Tomblvd View Post
Ah look, my question is already answered: Zero. The frequency of events is zero since we started vaccinating. No sudden spikes, no gradual climbs, vaccination has had the effect of preventing further outbreaks, just like we expected.

In the case of polio we can be more specific. We not only know there was a downwards trend in cases, we know WHY: We know that the cause of polio had been identified and that people were taking preventative measures to avoid exposure. We also know the effect this had on the quality of life.

We could even be very clever and look at the decreased incident rate of Polio with the exposures to what would have been considered Risk Factors before vaccination. We could for example ask if those people who are not being infected because of vaccination have been exposed to swimming pools and the "clean water curse".

Or we could have some common sense and ask when the vaccine will be most effective at illiminating the bug. If introduced on an upwards or downwards trend? A downwards trend is the obvious choice for obvious reasons. Pretending that the vaccines have zero effect and the downwards trend would have ended in a plateau, despite the peaks and troughs visible before vaccination, is unfounded.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:37 AM   #2181
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Originally Posted by jargon buster View Post
Evidence please.
There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today. Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations. Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead. And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:42 AM   #2182
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Smallpox vaccine was a good idea when there was a smallpox epidemic, but today, it is a very bad idea.
Exactly wrong.

At the start of an epidcemic is NOT when you want vaccinations. BEFORE the epidemic to PREVENT the epidemic is when you want the vaccine.

Why wpould you wait until the vaccine was least viable, instead of building herd immmunity? Especially in a world of jet travel and international commuting? You want people to die BEFORE you offer everybody else the preventative vaccine?


You know what, go watch Smallpox 2002. It's a drama, but at least its a more realistic fiction that your ideas.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:43 AM   #2183
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today. Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations. Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead. And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.
So your evidence is that faulty vaccines are faulty? And not that the vaccines as designed are faulty?

Yay.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 01:44 AM   #2184
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
No. That's why when considering whether to vaccinate, it is always wise to think twice.
And both those thoughts are "Yes. The incredibly weak risk of negtive reaction is far better than the larger risk of disease."
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Old 23rd September 2012, 02:17 AM   #2185
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today. Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations. Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead. And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.
I didn't know about the whooping cough epidemic and so I Googled it.
http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/outbreaks.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ough-outbreak/
http://kablooey.org/2012/07/24/why-all-the-pertussis/

Quote:
...When the vaccination rates drop, everyone becomes more vulnerable to infectious diseases. When more than 90% of the population is vaccinated, we have “herd immunity” – this means the disease can’t spread because there aren’t enough susceptible people in the community. So the high rate of vaccine refusal in Washington makes it easier for whooping cough (and other diseases) to spread.
from
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...c-in-70-years/
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Old 23rd September 2012, 02:47 AM   #2186
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today.
Would those be areas with high or low vaccination rates?
Quote:
Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations.
Evidence to support this statement?
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Old 23rd September 2012, 03:10 AM   #2187
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The concept of vaccines is kinda fine and dandy. But the "one size fits all" implementation ain't science by a long shot.

The human body is complex and whipping up a batch of vaccine for a virus using the vaccine rules of the road is little more than some witch doctor brewing up a potion.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 03:49 AM   #2188
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The concept of vaccines is kinda fine and dandy.
Well, that's a start.
Quote:
But the "one size fits all" implementation ain't science by a long shot.
What do you mean? Please be specific.

Quote:
The human body is complex and whipping up a batch of vaccine for a virus using the vaccine rules of the road is little more than some witch doctor brewing up a potion.
And again, what are you talking about?
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Old 23rd September 2012, 04:25 AM   #2189
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, that's a start.

What do you mean? Please be specific.


And again, what are you talking about?
Sorry. It's just normal conversation. You're on your own.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 04:46 AM   #2190
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Sorry. It's just normal conversation. You're on your own.
And in normal conversation, if you make assertions that you can't back up, you'll be asked to retract them. I take it you withdraw your baseless and rather vague statements, then?
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Old 23rd September 2012, 04:52 AM   #2191
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
The concept of vaccines is kinda fine and dandy. But the "one size fits all" implementation ain't science by a long shot.
Oh, and are you going to acknowledge your error regarding the annual costs of 'flu vaccinations?
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Old 23rd September 2012, 05:29 AM   #2192
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today. Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations. Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead. And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.
Proof please.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 05:30 AM   #2193
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
No. That's why when considering whether to vaccinate, it is always wise to think twice.
Should I protect my children against a range of awful diseases or not? Gosh that's a hard one.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 05:31 AM   #2194
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post


And again, what are you talking about?
His ignorance of science.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 05:34 AM   #2195
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
And if we extend that graph to the present, how many upwards trends do we see after vaccinations are introduced? You know like the ones we can see BEFORE vaccination?

If we extend that chart backwards, we see a number of peaks and troughs, that we can all a Frequency of Events. What has the Frequency become?

See. Statistics are fun.
And the ''facts'' are from a looney site called vaxtruth!
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Old 23rd September 2012, 06:03 AM   #2196
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
And the ''facts'' are from a looney site called vaxtruth!
I know such sites want you to look at their "facts" and say "OH NO!" They don't seem to like it when you put their facts through an analytical grinder...
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Old 23rd September 2012, 06:11 AM   #2197
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
What exactly is the y-axis showing on your graph?

(for those that know, please let Robert answer)

Last edited by Tomblvd; 23rd September 2012 at 06:12 AM. Reason: added last
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Old 23rd September 2012, 06:39 AM   #2198
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
50 years ago? It is more likely that today's medical technology would have saved his daughter.
Today's medical technology includes vaccines.

Quote:
Think about this. If bed rest and a dark room were pretty much the remedy for measles in 1960 don't you think science could head off complications after 50 years?
They once said the same thing about cancer. Once again, putting a question mark after your rhetorical nonsense still leaves it as nonsense.

Quote:
How many trillions of dollars has the American public spent on measles vaccines?
Good question. If you think it matters, find out and present the information instead of JAQing off.

Quote:
Obama's budget total a record $3.8 trillion

$360,000,000,000 = $.36 trillion.


I think it's safe to say
It's strange, but I have almost never heard someone sincerely use that term in a debate that wasn't talking out of their personals.

Quote:
that every year vaccines cost Americans way more than the yearly national budget.
Stundie.

Quote:
Vaccine money should be spent toward curing diseases rather than haphazardly trying to prevent them.
An ounce of prevention. Also, are you now acknowledging that vaccines do work to any degree whatsoever?
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Old 23rd September 2012, 06:51 AM   #2199
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Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Do you have one that continues to the present day? Are you going to address the graph Tomblvd posted with the number dropping sharply after vaccines were introduced? Do you have any sites other than anti-vaxxers? Primary sources, maybe?

I'm also noting a complete lack of backup for the herd immunity claim, or the alteration of the numbers.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Yes, you are.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Smallpox vaccine was a good idea when there was a smallpox epidemic, but today, it is a very bad idea.
Thing is, without vaccines, there's no "herd immunity", and, eventually, a resurgence in smallpox.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
Not at all. But there is a lot of brainwash out there concerning vaccinations. Just seeking to impart some balance with uncensored facts.
Yes, you're just full of those.

Originally Posted by Robert Prey View Post
There is a whooping cough epidemic in many areas of the US today. Most of the victims have had the pertussis vaccinations.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

Quote:
Shortly after the first Salk Polio trials, many of the vaccinated came down with Polio due to the dead vaccine being not so dead.
Source please.

Quote:
And after the wide spread use of the live Polio vaccine, in some areas, the only Polio victims contracted the disease from the live vaccine.
Source please.

Amazing how you think an experimental vaccine will have the same effects as one that's gone through decades of testing and refinement. I note that you don't actually present any statistics.
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Old 23rd September 2012, 06:53 AM   #2200
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Sorry. It's just normal conversation. You're on your own.
In a normal conversation, people explain what they mean when the person they're talking to can't understand them.
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