ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 21st October 2020, 07:49 AM   #161
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,845
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
If anyone's interested the latest episode of the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe podcast has an interview with the lead author of this paper.

https://www.theskepticsguide.org/podcasts/episode-797

I can't tell you exactly where the interview starts but roughly halfway into the episode.

I still don't think I fully understand this thing, and it still sounds a bit "too good to be true" to me, but they ask him some questions.

The energy comes from ambient heat, so in that sense it isn't really "free energy". They ask him to respond to stuff that Feynman said too, and he has an answer.
I listened to that interview and did not find myself much wiser. If anyone can find a video of the device actually working and producing power, let me know. If it works perpetually, I'll become a believer. Otherwise, it just seems to be some sort of heat pump.

I'm a bit mystified that he thinks "the diode was discovered in the 1950s". Per Wikipedia - "The discovery of asymmetric electrical conduction across the contact between a crystalline mineral and a metal was made by German physicist Ferdinand Braun in 1874." Or, if you wish, the ". . . solid-state (semiconductor) diodes were developed separately, at approximately the same time, in the early 1900s solid-state (semiconductor) diodes were developed separately, at approximately the same time, in the early 1900s".

I'll leave it up to people more qualified than I to explain why the resistor cools down when it's not in the circuit!

Hey. I'd be happy to have my skepticism dissipated; after all, when I joine,d this was an educational forum.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2020, 06:29 PM   #162
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,597
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are still unstated parameters of the problem which matter (as I said, very easy to do). In particular, the sides aren’t in thermal equilibrium, but are they in pressure equilibrium? I will assume so, though that need not be the case.
I didn't state it but I didn't forget it. In the model I was considering the pressure on the left was also greater than that on the right. Hence my assumption that the sum or the average of the particles' velocities would point to the right for a time.

My other unstated assumption is that I am dealing with something close to an ideal gas, although I don't know if that is relevant.
Quote:
The temperature on the colder side will not overshoot the warmer side even temporarily.
As I said I will take your word for it. You are saying that if there was a thermometer near the left and a thermometer near the right and we were to graph the measurements, then the temperatures would approach each other but the lines never cross, right? The temperature on the right would never exceed that on the left.

I have to say it sounds implausible to me since it seems that the graph of pressure on each side would have stationary points and this would imply that the graph of temperature on each side would have stationary points, ie the higher temperature would start falling and then rising and the lower temperature would start rising and then falling, and afterwards the move to equilibrium, which seems to imply an overshoot.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 21st October 2020 at 06:54 PM.
Robin is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2020, 11:50 PM   #163
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,309
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I didn't state it but I didn't forget it. In the model I was considering the pressure on the left was also greater than that on the right. Hence my assumption that the sum or the average of the particles' velocities would point to the right for a time.
Then we are into more assumptions, like what the mean free path is. If it's very large, the two gasses will just pass through each other before equilibrating, with no oscillation. If it's very small, then mixing is slow, and the oscillation you would get would be from mechanical work the gasses do on each other, not heat flow.

Quote:
As I said I will take your word for it. You are saying that if there was a thermometer near the left and a thermometer near the right and we were to graph the measurements, then the temperatures would approach each other but the lines never cross, right? The temperature on the right would never exceed that on the left.
They might oscillate from mechanical work, but not from heat flow. If it helps, you can think of heat flow like an overdamped oscillator.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2020, 02:58 AM   #164
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,597
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then we are into more assumptions, like what the mean free path is. If it's very large, the two gasses will just pass through each other before equilibrating, with no oscillation. If it's very small, then mixing is slow, and the oscillation you would get would be from mechanical work the gasses do on each other, not heat flow.
So, to clarify, when you said:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat
Entropy is maximized by definition when the temperatures are equal. If heat flows from lower temperature to higher temperature, then that automatically means that entropy decreased
You meant it to apply exclusively to cases where the change in temperature changes occur by heat flow strictly defined and not in general to systems where one part is becoming cooler while the rest is becoming warmer.

So my statement - that one part of the system might become cooler compared to the rest and entropy of the system as a whole might still be increasing - is quite correct.

I would also point out that in the system under discussion the heat does not flow (in the sense you are using the term) rather the graphene performs work on the circuit.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2020, 08:39 AM   #165
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,309
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So my statement - that one part of the system might become cooler compared to the rest and entropy of the system as a whole might still be increasing - is quite correct.
Yes. And I never said otherwise. My point wasn't that you were wrong, but that this doesn't apply here.

Quote:
I would also point out that in the system under discussion the heat does not flow (in the sense you are using the term) rather the graphene performs work on the circuit.
I don't think that's the case, though. I think it's correct to classify this as heat flow.

Let's look at a Carnot cycle heat engine as an example. We've got a gas in a cylinder at some temperature and pressure, and we allow the gas to expand, doing work on the cylinder in the process and cooling down. The gas did work, and lost energy.

Did it transfer heat, though? No. How do we know? Well, one way we know is by looking at the entropy of the gas. Did the entropy of the gas change? The answer is no, actually, the entropy of the gas did not change. How do we know? Well, the easiest test is simply that the process is reversible. But if you want to dive down into the gritty details, what happened is that when the gas expands against the cylinder, it exchanged kinetic entropy (lots of different possible velocities) for positional entropy (the larger volume means more possible locations).

In our graphene circuit, the graphene is losing energy. But is it maintaining its entropy in the process? I don't think it is. I see nowhere that the graphene can gain entropy to compensate for the entropy it's losing. So energy loss along with entropy loss means heat flowed out of it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2020, 09:50 AM   #166
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,953
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I listened to that interview and did not find myself much wiser. If anyone can find a video of the device actually working and producing power, let me know. If it works perpetually, I'll become a believer. Otherwise, it just seems to be some sort of heat pump.

I'm a bit mystified that he thinks "the diode was discovered in the 1950s". Per Wikipedia - "The discovery of asymmetric electrical conduction across the contact between a crystalline mineral and a metal was made by German physicist Ferdinand Braun in 1874." Or, if you wish, the ". . . solid-state (semiconductor) diodes were developed separately, at approximately the same time, in the early 1900s solid-state (semiconductor) diodes were developed separately, at approximately the same time, in the early 1900s".

I'll leave it up to people more qualified than I to explain why the resistor cools down when it's not in the circuit!

Hey. I'd be happy to have my skepticism dissipated; after all, when I joine,d this was an educational forum.
Gotta disappoint you. Won't happen this time, either. It's really very easy: If someone promotes "limitless power" of "free energy" on the internet, they are deluded or scammers (occasionally both). If it really worked, you would see oil prices suddenly plummeting and someone's stocks soaring.

Hans

ETA: Oh and it's not power. In principle you can temporarily produce virtually limitless power, like in lightning. What counts is energy, which is power X time.
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

Last edited by MRC_Hans; 26th October 2020 at 09:52 AM.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th October 2020, 03:30 PM   #167
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,845
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Gotta disappoint you. Won't happen this time, either. It's really very easy: If someone promotes "limitless power" of "free energy" on the internet, they are deluded or scammers (occasionally both). If it really worked, you would see oil prices suddenly plummeting and someone's stocks soaring.

Hans

ETA: Oh and it's not power. In principle you can temporarily produce virtually limitless power, like in lightning. What counts is energy, which is power X time.
Awww. You don't say.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2020, 06:56 AM   #168
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 47,352
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
I'm a bit mystified that he thinks "the diode was discovered in the 1950s". Per Wikipedia - "The discovery of asymmetric electrical conduction across the contact between a crystalline mineral and a metal was made by German physicist Ferdinand Braun in 1874." Or, if you wish, the ". . . solid-state (semiconductor) diodes were developed separately, at approximately the same time, in the early 1900s solid-state (semiconductor) diodes were developed separately, at approximately the same time, in the early 1900s".
He's probably talking about p-n junction diodes in semiconductors, which wiki says were discovered/invented in the 1940s and developed in the 1950s. (According to www.physics-and-radio-electronics.com, they're good for providing a one-way electrical current.)

Technically, he's still off by about a decade, but technically correct is usually the worst kind of correct. In most conversations, I'm more than happy to allow some leeway between the date of first theoretical discovery and the date of systematic production and practical application. If a guy shows it's possible in the 1940s, but p-n transistors don't really emerge as a thing until the 1950s, then "discovered in the 1950s" is close enough for me. Unless the guy is actually trying to earn a Ph.D. on the history of electrical circuits or something. But he's already got a Ph.D.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2020, 10:26 AM   #169
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,845
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He's probably talking about p-n junction diodes in semiconductors, which wiki says were discovered/invented in the 1940s and developed in the 1950s. (According to www.physics-and-radio-electronics.com, they're good for providing a one-way electrical current.)

Technically, he's still off by about a decade, but technically correct is usually the worst kind of correct. In most conversations, I'm more than happy to allow some leeway between the date of first theoretical discovery and the date of systematic production and practical application. If a guy shows it's possible in the 1940s, but p-n transistors don't really emerge as a thing until the 1950s, then "discovered in the 1950s" is close enough for me. Unless the guy is actually trying to earn a Ph.D. on the history of electrical circuits or something. But he's already got a Ph.D.
If someone means p-n junction diodes say "p-n junction diodes". Diode vacuum tubes have been around a lot longer. The use of "cat's whisker" detectors in crystal radios dates to near the end of the 19-century.

All of which has nothing to do with creation of free power from nothing.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2020, 08:14 AM   #170
Solitaire
Neoclinus blanchardi
 
Solitaire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,410
Resistor Power

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is that one watt per square meter of device, or one watt per square
meter of graphene? Because there's going to be a really big difference there.

There may not be a big difference. It's a three dimensional circuit design.

Essentially, the graphene layer gets sandwiched between two silicon layers.
A razor blade from the top layer cuts the graphene sheet into small squares
as it slides down into a slot on the bottom layer and locks the pieces by the
sides of the slot leaving from 96 percent to 99 percent of the graphene surface
free to move. Isolating each piece matters because graphene conducts electrons.



Quote:
Wouldn't be surprised if it's something like this. But the power density can't
be a watt per square meter of device in that case, RF noise isn't generally
that powerful. And output wouldn't scale with stacking either.

Looking at the magic in the diodes, I've created a better circuit
by getting rid of the graphene and the battery.

According to the formula for the Johnson–Nyquist noise, a one ohm
resistor at 300 degrees kelvin produces 1.286856635371633E-10 volts
times the square root of frequency times resistance.

Simply put a ten giga-ohm resistor in a bridge rectifier circuit with fast
low voltage drop Schottky diodes that can handle ten gigahertz frequency
and it will output one volt.

Although such a small circuit will only a ten billionth of an amp, modern
fabrication processes can place ten billion of them in parallel on a single
chip one centimeter in size. I expect a square meter of this circuit to produce
ten thousand watts of power.


P. S. Now that I've done my bit for humanity, would someone kindly notify
the Nobel Prize committee where to send the check. (I think they have this
crazy rule where you cannot nominate yourself.)
__________________
Be very careful what you put in your head, because you will never get it out again. — Phineas Gage
Solitaire is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2020, 11:05 AM   #171
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,845
Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
There may not be a big difference. It's a three dimensional circuit design.

Essentially, the graphene layer gets sandwiched between two silicon layers.
A razor blade from the top layer cuts the graphene sheet into small squares
as it slides down into a slot on the bottom layer and locks the pieces by the
sides of the slot leaving from 96 percent to 99 percent of the graphene surface
free to move. Isolating each piece matters because graphene conducts electrons.

Looking at the magic in the diodes, I've created a better circuit
by getting rid of the graphene and the battery.

According to the formula for the Johnson–Nyquist noise, a one ohm
resistor at 300 degrees kelvin produces 1.286856635371633E-10 volts
times the square root of frequency times resistance.

Simply put a ten giga-ohm resistor in a bridge rectifier circuit with fast
low voltage drop Schottky diodes that can handle ten gigahertz frequency
and it will output one volt.

Although such a small circuit will only a ten billionth of an amp, modern
fabrication processes can place ten billion of them in parallel on a single
chip one centimeter in size. I expect a square meter of this circuit to produce
ten thousand watts of power.


P. S. Now that I've done my bit for humanity, would someone kindly notify
the Nobel Prize committee where to send the check
. (I think they have this
crazy rule where you cannot nominate yourself.)

I'll happily nominate you! (But I wouldn't mind a working model first.)
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2020, 11:47 AM   #172
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,309
Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
There may not be a big difference. It's a three dimensional circuit design.

Essentially, the graphene layer gets sandwiched between two silicon layers.
A razor blade from the top layer cuts the graphene sheet into small squares
as it slides down into a slot on the bottom layer and locks the pieces by the
sides of the slot leaving from 96 percent to 99 percent of the graphene surface
free to move. Isolating each piece matters because graphene conducts electrons.

I'm not sure you understood my question. It isn't about how much of the graphene is bouncing around vs. how much is fixed in place, it's about how much of the area of the circuit is made from graphene at all.

The circuit contains a loop outside the graphene. That loop can pick up EMF. How much voltage EMF will produce in the loop will scale with the area of the loop. And that area may be considerably bigger than the graphene.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2020, 12:48 PM   #173
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,953
Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
There may not be a big difference. It's a three dimensional circuit design.

Essentially, the graphene layer gets sandwiched between two silicon layers.
A razor blade from the top layer cuts the graphene sheet into small squares
as it slides down into a slot on the bottom layer and locks the pieces by the
sides of the slot leaving from 96 percent to 99 percent of the graphene surface
free to move. Isolating each piece matters because graphene conducts electrons.






Looking at the magic in the diodes, I've created a better circuit
by getting rid of the graphene and the battery.

According to the formula for the Johnson–Nyquist noise, a one ohm
resistor at 300 degrees kelvin produces 1.286856635371633E-10 volts
times the square root of frequency times resistance.

Simply put a ten giga-ohm resistor in a bridge rectifier circuit with fast
low voltage drop Schottky diodes that can handle ten gigahertz frequency
and it will output one volt.

Although such a small circuit will only a ten billionth of an amp, modern
fabrication processes can place ten billion of them in parallel on a single
chip one centimeter in size. I expect a square meter of this circuit to produce
ten thousand watts of power.


P. S. Now that I've done my bit for humanity, would someone kindly notify
the Nobel Prize committee where to send the check. (I think they have this
crazy rule where you cannot nominate yourself.)
I know you are joking, but .... It's area dependent, and .... well, here's the real bummer: Drawing energy will cool the circuit. Of course you can then supply heat to it, but ....

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2020, 10:41 PM   #174
BowlOfRed
Graduate Poster
 
BowlOfRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,790
I think it was mentioned that the graphene is cooled, but the circuit is not. The resistor returns the thermal energy. Have to put that in another room to build the refrigerator.
BowlOfRed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2020, 09:25 AM   #175
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 19,845
Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
I think it was mentioned that the graphene is cooled, but the circuit is not. The resistor returns the thermal energy. Have to put that in another room to build the refrigerator.
No one has as yet mentioned the Thermoelectric_effect#Peltier_effectWP so I won't.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2020, 12:49 PM   #176
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,953
Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
I think it was mentioned that the graphene is cooled, but the circuit is not. The resistor returns the thermal energy. Have to put that in another room to build the refrigerator.
That is gibberish. Where does the resistor get the energy from?

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2020, 02:39 PM   #177
BowlOfRed
Graduate Poster
 
BowlOfRed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 1,790
I don't know at what level you want an answer here. The resistor is part of the circuit with the graphene, so presumably the energy is that harvested from the heat environment of the graphene. This is from the abstract:

Quote:
However, there is power dissipated by the load resistor, and its time average is exactly equal to the power supplied by the thermal bath.
BowlOfRed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:37 AM   #178
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,953
Sorry, but that is technobabble

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.