Would a Republican government turn its back on Ukraine? - Page 4

wareyin · 22nd June 2022, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

I don't think this would be a productive discussion, because your question implies that you believe that most or all primary elections demonstrate the opposite.

Even if your assesment were true, you seem to disagree with basically every other poster in the thread. Why do you think you can have a productive discussion with them by the same standards?

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

I will say that I reject the reasoning that goes along the lines of "I believe passionately in X. Anyone who is opposed to X is either stupid or evil. Most Republicans are are opposed to X. Therefore most Republicans are stupid or evil." I also reject that reasoning with respect to the Democrats.

Ok, that's nice. You do know that the stupid or evil line is what you brought into this thread, right?

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Additionally, I will refer you to the numerous Republican state officials and state legislators who refused to go along with Trump's plan to overturn the election by invalidating their states' election results. Much is made of the number of Republicans in Congress who voted to object to the electoral results. However, as I've mentioned, this was essentially a meaningless vote that some saw as a handy way to curry favor with Trump and pander to his supporters. Yet practically no Republican officeholders who could have taken any meaningful action, from Mike Pence on down, went along.

While there were some Republicans who actually followed the rule of law, I'm not sure that doing so makes them heroes. But because you brought up the upcoming election, I'm curious about the candidates who will be in the upcoming election who demonstrated virtually unanimous support for invalidating those results. At almost all levels, from the voters up to the local, state, and federal level candidate. So...that's why I asked you how the Republican primaries support your apparent claim that the elections those candidates will be in will show that Republicans are not evil, stupid, and/or cowardly?

SpitfireIX · 22nd June 2022, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

It is referencing Trump's praise for how the chinese handled the Tiananmen square protests. Made them look strong after all.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...trength-2019-6

It was an issue, and he was forced to ~~clarify~~ walk back his comments during the 2016 primary campaign.

From NBC News:

"Mr. Trump, some of your Republican critics have expressed concern about comments you have made praising authoritarian dictators," CNN anchor and debate moderator Jake Tapper said. "You have said positive things about Putin as a leader and about China's massacre of pro-democracy protesters at Tiananmen Square." . . .

"That doesn't mean I was endorsing that," Trump said. "I was not endorsing it. I said that is a strong, powerful government that put it down with strength. And then they kept down the riot. It was a horrible thing. It doesn't mean at all I was endorsing it."

"Strong doesn't mean good," he continued. "Putin is a strong leader, absolutely. I could name many strong leaders. I could name very many weak leaders, but he is a strong leader. I don't say that in a good way or a bad way. I say it as a fact."

Also, you again imply that the vast majority of Republicans must agree with everything Trump has ever said. Do you believe that the vast majority of Democrats agree with everything Biden has ever said?

ponderingturtle · 22nd June 2022, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

It was an issue, and he was forced to ~~clarify~~ walk back his comments during the 2016 primary campaign.

From NBC News:

"Mr. Trump, some of your Republican critics have expressed concern about comments you have made praising authoritarian dictators," CNN anchor and debate moderator Jake Tapper said. "You have said positive things about Putin as a leader and about China's massacre of pro-democracy protesters at Tiananmen Square." . . .

"That doesn't mean I was endorsing that," Trump said. "I was not endorsing it. I said that is a strong, powerful government that put it down with strength. And then they kept down the riot. It was a horrible thing. It doesn't mean at all I was endorsing it."

"Strong doesn't mean good," he continued. "Putin is a strong leader, absolutely. I could name many strong leaders. I could name very many weak leaders, but he is a strong leader. I don't say that in a good way or a bad way. I say it as a fact."

Also, you again imply that the vast majority of Republicans must agree with everything Trump has ever said. Do you believe that the vast majority of Democrats agree with everything Biden has ever said?

No I did not say that, they just don't view them as problematic enough to take issue with, like his bragging about sexually assaulting women. They were clearly not deal breakers. But hey you like putting words in peoples mouths I guess.

It is just like they view retweeting white supremacists as acceptable behavior in a leader because that did not cause any real problems for trump. These things are simple facts.

theprestige · 22nd June 2022, 11:55 AM

Based on Trump's remarks about China, I'd expect a Trump administration to come out in favor of an even stronger NATO* response. Shouting on national TV about how we need to start airstrikes and roll tanks across the border pronto.

The Great Zaganza · 22nd June 2022, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

So we're back to the "most Republicans are evil/stupid/cowardly" narrative again. We'll see how well that holds up after November (hint: it won't).

i think the Jan 6th findings and everything we already knew proves unambiguously that a vast majority of Republicans are indeed implicitly or explicitly evil/stupid/cowardly.

There is no reason to assume that the Party that refused to Impeach Trump over his extortion of Ukraine for personal gain would do anything if he did the same again in the future.

Republicans have a long, long way to go to gain back any shred of respectability.

And elections have nothing to do with whether parties are evil/stupid/cowardly: it's the Fox/OAN/Newsmaxx business model to be exactly that, and win elections that way.

Stacyhs · 22nd June 2022, 07:04 PM

I find Rusty Bower's statement that he would vote again for Trump perplexing since he acknowledges that Trump and his minions tried repeatedly to get him to violate his oath to the Constitution and that Trump and his rectal inhabitants tried to illegally stop the peaceful and legal transfer of power to Biden as per the will of the people. I guess "liking what Trump did before Covid" makes up for it.

Quote:

“If he is the nominee, if he was up against [Joe] Biden, I’d vote for him again,” Bowers told the Associated Press. “Simply because what he did the first time, before Covid, was so good for the country. In my view it was great.”

Segnosaur · 22nd June 2022, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Why do you keep making this specious claim? If Republicans want to stop assistance to Ukraine, why didn't they just filibuster the last aid bill? And why did so many Republicans in the House vote in favor of it?

Perhaps because the topic of the thread isn't "Are the Republicans turning their back on Ukraine NOW", but a more speculative "WOULD they turn their back on them in the future".

Quote:

Republican opinion can shift quite rapidly. Look at how they went from free trade to trade wars once they were told to.

They did no such thing. From Politico:
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and many of his members reason that more can be gained in private communications with the president than in outright legislative warfare with him. They believe that their work to stop the president from imposing broad tariffs on Mexico earlier this year or imposing tariffs on foreign autos did far more good than confrontation with the president.

Republican politicians can CLAIM anything they want. The question is whether we should believe them.

Despite all their claims of "we love trade", despite their claims of disagreement with Trump over trade policy, the fact is, they still stood by as Trump ran around slapping tariffs on pretty much everyone.

As for their supposed "behind the scenes" work to change trade policy with Mexico... Trump still slapped tariffs on steel and aluminium.

Quote:

Additionally, I will refer you to the numerous Republican state officials and state legislators who refused to go along with Trump's plan to overturn the election by invalidating their states' election results. Much is made of the number of Republicans in Congress who voted to object to the electoral results. However, as I've mentioned, this was essentially a meaningless vote that some saw as a handy way to curry favor with Trump and pander to his supporters. Yet practically no Republican officeholders who could have taken any meaningful action, from Mike Pence on down, went along.

Color me less than impressed.

Yes, plenty of republicans rejected Trump's coup attempt. But, what did they do in the aftermath? Did they do anything to hold Trump accountable? Did they take any effort to limit the damage he could do?

Nope. No attempt to invoke the 25th amendment. Virtually all Republican congress-critters rejected an attempt to impeach Trump for his role in the riots. And they seem to be doing everything they can to sabotage attempts to investigate the terrorist activity on Jan6.

22nd June 2022, 11:13 AM	#122
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,333	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle It is referencing Trump's praise for how the chinese handled the Tiananmen square protests. Made them look strong after all. https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...trength-2019-6 It was an issue, and he was forced to ~~clarify~~ walk back his comments during the 2016 primary campaign. From NBC News: "Mr. Trump, some of your Republican critics have expressed concern about comments you have made praising authoritarian dictators," CNN anchor and debate moderator Jake Tapper said. "You have said positive things about Putin as a leader and about China's massacre of pro-democracy protesters at Tiananmen Square." . . . "That doesn't mean I was endorsing that," Trump said. "I was not endorsing it. I said that is a strong, powerful government that put it down with strength. And then they kept down the riot. It was a horrible thing. It doesn't mean at all I was endorsing it." "Strong doesn't mean good," he continued. "Putin is a strong leader, absolutely. I could name many strong leaders. I could name very many weak leaders, but he is a strong leader. I don't say that in a good way or a bad way. I say it as a fact." Also, you again imply that the vast majority of Republicans must agree with everything Trump has ever said. Do you believe that the vast majority of Democrats agree with everything Biden has ever said?
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz Last edited by SpitfireIX; 22nd June 2022 at 11:15 AM.

22nd June 2022, 11:53 AM	#123
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,551	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX It was an issue, and he was forced to ~~clarify~~ walk back his comments during the 2016 primary campaign. From NBC News: "Mr. Trump, some of your Republican critics have expressed concern about comments you have made praising authoritarian dictators," CNN anchor and debate moderator Jake Tapper said. "You have said positive things about Putin as a leader and about China's massacre of pro-democracy protesters at Tiananmen Square." . . . "That doesn't mean I was endorsing that," Trump said. "I was not endorsing it. I said that is a strong, powerful government that put it down with strength. And then they kept down the riot. It was a horrible thing. It doesn't mean at all I was endorsing it." "Strong doesn't mean good," he continued. "Putin is a strong leader, absolutely. I could name many strong leaders. I could name very many weak leaders, but he is a strong leader. I don't say that in a good way or a bad way. I say it as a fact." Also, you again imply that the vast majority of Republicans must agree with everything Trump has ever said. Do you believe that the vast majority of Democrats agree with everything Biden has ever said? No I did not say that, they just don't view them as problematic enough to take issue with, like his bragging about sexually assaulting women. They were clearly not deal breakers. But hey you like putting words in peoples mouths I guess. It is just like they view retweeting white supremacists as acceptable behavior in a leader because that did not cause any real problems for trump. These things are simple facts.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

22nd June 2022, 11:55 AM	#125
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,106	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX So we're back to the "most Republicans are evil/stupid/cowardly" narrative again. We'll see how well that holds up after November (hint: it won't). i think the Jan 6th findings and everything we already knew proves unambiguously that a vast majority of Republicans are indeed implicitly or explicitly evil/stupid/cowardly. There is no reason to assume that the Party that refused to Impeach Trump over his extortion of Ukraine for personal gain would do anything if he did the same again in the future. Republicans have a long, long way to go to gain back any shred of respectability. And elections have nothing to do with whether parties are evil/stupid/cowardly: it's the Fox/OAN/Newsmaxx business model to be exactly that, and win elections that way.
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 22nd June 2022 at 11:57 AM.

22nd June 2022, 09:11 PM	#127
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 18,773	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX Why do you keep making this specious claim? If Republicans want to stop assistance to Ukraine, why didn't they just filibuster the last aid bill? And why did so many Republicans in the House vote in favor of it? Perhaps because the topic of the thread isn't "Are the Republicans turning their back on Ukraine NOW", but a more speculative "WOULD they turn their back on them in the future". Quote: Quote: Republican opinion can shift quite rapidly. Look at how they went from free trade to trade wars once they were told to. They did no such thing. From Politico: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and many of his members reason that more can be gained in private communications with the president than in outright legislative warfare with him. They believe that their work to stop the president from imposing broad tariffs on Mexico earlier this year or imposing tariffs on foreign autos did far more good than confrontation with the president. Republican politicians can CLAIM anything they want. The question is whether we should believe them. Despite all their claims of "we love trade", despite their claims of disagreement with Trump over trade policy, the fact is, they still stood by as Trump ran around slapping tariffs on pretty much everyone. As for their supposed "behind the scenes" work to change trade policy with Mexico... Trump still slapped tariffs on steel and aluminium. Quote: Additionally, I will refer you to the numerous Republican state officials and state legislators who refused to go along with Trump's plan to overturn the election by invalidating their states' election results. Much is made of the number of Republicans in Congress who voted to object to the electoral results. However, as I've mentioned, this was essentially a meaningless vote that some saw as a handy way to curry favor with Trump and pander to his supporters. Yet practically no Republican officeholders who could have taken any meaningful action, from Mike Pence on down, went along. Color me less than impressed. Yes, plenty of republicans rejected Trump's coup attempt. But, what did they do in the aftermath? Did they do anything to hold Trump accountable? Did they take any effort to limit the damage he could do? Nope. No attempt to invoke the 25th amendment. Virtually all Republican congress-critters rejected an attempt to impeach Trump for his role in the riots. And they seem to be doing everything they can to sabotage attempts to investigate the terrorist activity on Jan6.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

22nd June 2022, 10:43 AM	#121
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 9,571	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX I don't think this would be a productive discussion, because your question implies that you believe that most or all primary elections demonstrate the opposite. Even if your assesment were true, you seem to disagree with basically every other poster in the thread. Why do you think you can have a productive discussion with them by the same standards? Originally Posted by SpitfireIX I will say that I reject the reasoning that goes along the lines of "I believe passionately in X. Anyone who is opposed to X is either stupid or evil. Most Republicans are are opposed to X. Therefore most Republicans are stupid or evil." I also reject that reasoning with respect to the Democrats. Ok, that's nice. You do know that the stupid or evil line is what you brought into this thread, right? Originally Posted by SpitfireIX Additionally, I will refer you to the numerous Republican state officials and state legislators who refused to go along with Trump's plan to overturn the election by invalidating their states' election results. Much is made of the number of Republicans in Congress who voted to object to the electoral results. However, as I've mentioned, this was essentially a meaningless vote that some saw as a handy way to curry favor with Trump and pander to his supporters. Yet practically no Republican officeholders who could have taken any meaningful action, from Mike Pence on down, went along. While there were some Republicans who actually followed the rule of law, I'm not sure that doing so makes them heroes. But because you brought up the upcoming election, I'm curious about the candidates who will be in the upcoming election who demonstrated virtually unanimous support for invalidating those results. At almost all levels, from the voters up to the local, state, and federal level candidate. So...that's why I asked you how the Republican primaries support your apparent claim that the elections those candidates will be in will show that Republicans are not evil, stupid, and/or cowardly?

22nd June 2022, 11:55 AM	#124
theprestige Suspended Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 59,547	Based on Trump's remarks about China, I'd expect a Trump administration to come out in favor of an even stronger NATO* response. Shouting on national TV about how we need to start airstrikes and roll tanks across the border pronto.

22nd June 2022, 07:04 PM	#126
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 25,326	I find Rusty Bower's statement that he would vote again for Trump perplexing since he acknowledges that Trump and his minions tried repeatedly to get him to violate his oath to the Constitution and that Trump and his rectal inhabitants tried to illegally stop the peaceful and legal transfer of power to Biden as per the will of the people. I guess "liking what Trump did before Covid" makes up for it. Quote: “If he is the nominee, if he was up against [Joe] Biden, I’d vote for him again,” Bowers told the Associated Press. “Simply because what he did the first time, before Covid, was so good for the country. In my view it was great.”