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Old 1st July 2022, 12:29 AM   #2521
The Great Zaganza
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The tragedy of Crypto is that it correctly identifies all the problems with modern banking and finance, and then proceeds to repeat them all.
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Old 1st July 2022, 12:30 AM   #2522
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The tragedy of Crypto is that it correctly identifies all the problems with modern banking and finance, and then proceeds to repeat them all.
You're going to have to explain that one to me.
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Old 1st July 2022, 07:29 PM   #2523
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It's still 6 times more than March 2020. So nothing really out of ordinary.
Bottoms on logarithmic graph line up quite well since forever. 20 is somewhat bellow that line though.
So as always .. it's either good time to buy .. or the end


Bitcoin has now underperformed the S&P 500 since the start of 2018. Maybe now is a good time to buy that instead. Or better yet a Russel 2000 index fund, since it has lower price:earnings ratios.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 05:28 AM   #2524
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Ponzi scheme usually works with investment and returns, which are taken from investments of new users. No other transaction is possible. Price is fixed. It's centralized. Usually does not have global reach. Usually is not electronic. Usually actually you buy something physical (or service) for you investment. It would be easier to sum what's similar with ponzi scheme: people invest money into it in believe they will make money, while it's clear that most of them won't. Also the fact the investors usually do not understand the mechanism well. And that's about it.
Firstly, you are using the word "usually" quite a lot which means that many of the features you listed are not absolutely needed for something to be a Ponzi scheme. For example the "usually actually you buy something physical" feature is only applicable to a subset of Ponzi schemes called "multi-level marketing".

The thing that makes Bitcoin similar to a Ponzi scheme is that the the early investors make money at the expense of the later investors and there is no other mechanism for increasing the value of Bitcoins.

Quote:
Is gold commodity or ponzi scheme then ?
Gold is a commodity.

Quote:
Why do we need gold ?
Gold is malleable, shiny, doesn't tarnish and it also conducts electricity very well. That makes it extremely sought after for jewellery and electronics.

This is the problem with the crypto cultists. They think answering a question with a question makes them look smart.

Quote:
Why can't you accept it's simply something new ? Something which has features of commodities, also features of currencies, and also has features nothing else has.
Why can't you answer the damn question?

I've told you what we need gold for. Now you tell me what we need cryptocurrency for.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 06:44 AM   #2525
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
The thing that makes Bitcoin similar to a Ponzi scheme is that the the early investors make money at the expense of the later investors and there is no other mechanism for increasing the value of Bitcoins.
Ponzi schemes work until the investors find out that there is no money making scheme in it after all. Only then do those still invested in the scheme lose their investment.

You are saying that Ponzi schemes fail in the end and bitcoin will fail in the end therefore bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. This is the equivalent of saying my dog is a cat because it has 4 legs.

You have no basis for saying that bitcoin will fail in the end except for a fortune cookie. You can't assume that it is a ponzi scheme because that is what you are trying to prove. This is the logical fallacy of "begging the question".

The simple fact is that bitcoin is a tradable digital asset. Nothing more. Nothing less.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 04:55 PM   #2526
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
The thing that makes Bitcoin similar to a Ponzi scheme is that the the early investors make money at the expense of the later investors and there is no other mechanism for increasing the value of Bitcoins.
But that's not true. In ponzi scheme the 'market cap' rises, rises .. and then it collapses. Bitcoin is normally traded, the price goes up, down, up again. Buying early and selling later does not guarantee profit. You have to buy low, and sell high. And for example now the price is dropping, so people who buy later are in better position to make profit.

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Gold is a commodity.
What would be the price of gold if it suddenly become abundant, let's say like iron ? In other words, how big % of gold price is it's usefulness, and how big % of the price is just a hype ?


Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I've told you what we need gold for. Now you tell me what we need cryptocurrency for.
We don't really need cryptocurrency. Just as we don't really need gold. Both are useful for some things .. but that is not what dictates their price. Both are primarily used as means of value transfer, as store of value (also both independent of governments), and for speculation.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 08:46 PM   #2527
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
But that's not true. In ponzi scheme the 'market cap' rises, rises .. and then it collapses. Bitcoin is normally traded, the price goes up, down, up again. Buying early and selling later does not guarantee profit. You have to buy low, and sell high. And for example now the price is dropping, so people who buy later are in better position to make profit.


What would be the price of gold if it suddenly become abundant, let's say like iron ? In other words, how big % of gold price is it's usefulness, and how big % of the price is just a hype ?




We don't really need cryptocurrency. Just as we don't really need gold. Both are useful for some things .. but that is not what dictates their price. Both are primarily used as means of value transfer, as store of value (also both independent of governments), and for speculation.
Are you conflating scarcity and hype?
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Old 5th July 2022, 03:19 AM   #2528
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Ponzi schemes work until the investors find out that there is no money making scheme in it after all. Only then do those still invested in the scheme lose their investment.
Agreed. And what do you think happens when the Bitcoin investors realise there is no money making scheme in it after all?

Quote:
You are saying that Ponzi schemes fail in the end and bitcoin will fail in the end therefore bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme. This is the equivalent of saying my dog is a cat because it has 4 legs.
No. I'm saying that Bitcoin is like a ponzi scheme because the early investors make money at the expense of the latter investors. There's no other mechanism for making money out of it.

Quote:
You have no basis for saying that bitcoin will fail in the end
Nothing lasts forever. Bitcoin will fail eventually, one way or another.

Quote:
The simple fact is that bitcoin is a tradable digital asset. Nothing more. Nothing less.
But why trade in it when it is good for nothing that can't be done better with fiat currencies or real commodities?
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Old 5th July 2022, 04:46 AM   #2529
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
But that's not true. In ponzi scheme the 'market cap' rises, rises .. and then it collapses. Bitcoin is normally traded, the price goes up, down, up again. Buying early and selling later does not guarantee profit. You have to buy low, and sell high. And for example now the price is dropping, so people who buy later are in better position to make profit.
You know the price of Bitcoin isn't magic? The only way to buy low is if somebody sells low and the only way to sell high is if somebody else buys high. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. No new value is generated by trading in Bitcoin. In fact, you could argue trading in Bitcoin destroys value because of the amount of energy required to validate transactions.

Quote:
What would be the price of gold if it suddenly become abundant, let's say like iron ?
It would be much lower. But one of the reasons the price of gold is pretty solid is because we know that's not going to happen.

Quote:
In other words, how big % of gold price is it's usefulness, and how big % of the price is just a hype ?
No idea, but the percentage that is its usefulness is not zero.


Quote:
We don't really need cryptocurrency. Just as we don't really need gold. Both are useful for some things .. but that is not what dictates their price. Both are primarily used as means of value transfer, as store of value (also both independent of governments), and for speculation.
So you keep saying, but I return to the question that you and psionl0 will not answer. What is cryptocurrency useful for that is both legal and not better served by other means like fiat currency?
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Old 5th July 2022, 06:42 AM   #2530
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Just in case anyone is interested, ...

The RadioShack Company now has its own cryptocurrentcy that is worth almost one penny per coin.

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/RADI...ycsrp_catchall
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Old 5th July 2022, 11:17 PM   #2531
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Agreed. And what do you think happens when the Bitcoin investors realise there is no money making scheme in it after all?
They already know that. Bitcoin is not a share in any scheme whatsoever. It is purely a digital asset whose price fluctuates.

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
No. I'm saying that Bitcoin is like a ponzi scheme because the early investors make money at the expense of the latter investors. There's no other mechanism for making money out of it.
FALSE! This isn't even the definition of a ponzi scheme. It is the runner of the scheme who makes the money. Some investors who get in early can also exit with a profit but most will be left high and dry when the scheme fails.

Bitcoin is just a tradeable asset. You make money by buying low and selling high - just like every commodity in the world.

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Nothing lasts forever. Bitcoin will fail eventually, one way or another.
Pure fortune telling. You are just one of millions who have made that prediction every single time a bitcoin bubble burst. They have all been left with egg on their faces when bitcoin recovered yet again.


But why trade in it when it is good for nothing that can't be done better with fiat currencies or real commodities?[/quote]
Still can't be bothered to read the explanations?
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Old 6th July 2022, 04:06 AM   #2532
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
So you keep saying, but I return to the question that you and psionl0 will not answer. What is cryptocurrency useful for that is both legal and not better served by other means like fiat currency?
Fiat currency is regulated and dependent on currency issuer. Bitcoin is not.
Bitcoin clearly has something people want. And I'm saying it's the same thing which gives gold value. It's scarce, cannot be faked, can be easily traded, is universally accepted, also it's well known. Those are all values.

And bitcoin is also shiny. When was the last time you heard someone boasting about his gold online ?
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Old 6th July 2022, 05:22 AM   #2533
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
They already know that. Bitcoin is not a share in any scheme whatsoever. It is purely a digital asset whose price fluctuates.
You realise that when everybody realises it is a scam, the price will fluctuate to zero?


Quote:
FALSE! This isn't even the definition of a ponzi scheme. It is the runner of the scheme who makes the money. Some investors who get in early can also exit with a profit but most will be left high and dry when the scheme fails.
When Bitcoin fails, everybody still in it will be left high and dry. The people who sold at $60k have exited at a profit. The people who bought at $60k are currently high and dry. Thew people running the scheme i.e. the Bitcoin miners are probably doing ok depending on where they get their electricity.
Quote:
Bitcoin is just a tradeable asset. You make money by buying low and selling high - just like every commodity in the world.
Except it has no value except to scam other people out of their money.

Quote:
Pure fortune telling. You are just one of millions who have made that prediction every single time a bitcoin bubble burst. They have all been left with egg on their faces when bitcoin recovered yet again.
As I said, nothing lasts forever.

Quote:
Quote:
But why trade in it when it is good for nothing that can't be done better with fiat currencies or real commodities?
Still can't be bothered to read the explanations?
Nobody has posted any.

If I want to trade in commodities, why not use real commodities that have a value to consumers of the commodity? If I want to invest in something, why not invest in stocks and shares? If I want to transfer money from A to B, why not use fiat currency? If I want to buy something, why not use fiat currency?

Last edited by jeremyp; 6th July 2022 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 6th July 2022, 05:35 AM   #2534
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Fiat currency is regulated and dependent on currency issuer. Bitcoin is not.
Well that's an advantage for fiat currency.

Quote:
Bitcoin clearly has something people want.
So does heroin.

Quote:
And I'm saying it's the same thing which gives gold value. It's scarce, cannot be faked, can be easily traded, is universally accepted, also it's well known. Those are all values.
Gold has value because it has utility for (e.g.) making jewellery and electronics. The fact that it is also scarce inflates that value and it is true that some of it is due to people perceiving that it is valuable, which is circular but it's not everything. with Bitcoin, the circular bit is everything.

Bitcoin is artificially scarce but that's down to a few lines of code that could easily be removed. Indeed other cryptocoins do not have the same kind of artificial scarcity.

I don't know how you arrived at the idea that anybody would believe the claim that Bitcoin is universally accepted. I can't go down to the corner shop and buy a pint of milk with it. I can't pay it into my bank account and I can't pay my taxes with it.

Last edited by jeremyp; 6th July 2022 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 6th July 2022, 06:44 AM   #2535
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
(covers ears) LA LA LA LA LA
ftfy

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Bitcoin is artificially scarce but that's down to a few lines of code that could easily be removed.
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Old 6th July 2022, 07:00 AM   #2536
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy


So you don't want to engage. That's fine. I'll put you down as a "have no credible arguments".
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Old 6th July 2022, 08:06 AM   #2537
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
So you don't want to engage. That's fine. I'll put you down as a "have no credible arguments".
You are the one who is not engaging. No matter what counter arguments are made, you simply repeat discredited arguments that were made more than 10 years ago over and over again.
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Old 6th July 2022, 08:59 PM   #2538
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Well, people handle the fact they didn't buy in 2015 differently ..
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Old 7th July 2022, 10:22 AM   #2539
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Fiat currency is regulated and dependent on currency issuer. Bitcoin is not.
That's what makes it useful as a currency. The fact that bitcoin is not, means that it is by definition useless as a currency.

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Bitcoin clearly has something people want.
Not really. Most people don't see it as anything but numbers on a chart, and get fooled into thinking it's somehow similar to other things like stocks, bonds and commodities that have similar looking charts but actual represent real things with significant real utility.
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Old 7th July 2022, 03:08 PM   #2540
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
That's what makes it useful as a currency. The fact that bitcoin is not, means that it is by definition useless as a currency.
It's clearly not useless as a currency, as it is used as a currency. Certainly is not good as a currency. But it may be better than some currencies in the world. And it's similar in this aspect to gold, which was used as currency for ages.

Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Not really. Most people don't see it as anything but numbers on a chart, and get fooled into thinking it's somehow similar to other things like stocks, bonds and commodities that have similar looking charts but actual represent real things with significant real utility.
I'm talking about people who bought bitcoin. The market cap is $400 billion at the moment. That's not insignificant amount of 'want'.
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Old 7th July 2022, 07:24 PM   #2541
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The “market cap” is $400 billion, you mean.
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Old 8th July 2022, 04:11 PM   #2542
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It's clearly not useless as a currency, as it is used as a currency.
Nothing is denominated in bitcoin, so it's not being used as a currency. The reason nothing is denominated in bitcoin is because no one knows what it will be worth next week so you don't know how much to charge for anything.

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I'm talking about people who bought bitcoin. The market cap is $400 billion at the moment. That's not insignificant amount of 'want'.
I don't consider speculation to be utility. These people don't want bitcoin they want the real currency they think they can exchange it for later on. The problem is that until they exchange it for real currency they have earned nothing and if everyone wants to exchange it for real currency it's worth nothing.
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Old 9th July 2022, 01:21 AM   #2543
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Nothing is denominated in bitcoin, so it's not being used as a currency. The reason nothing is denominated in bitcoin is because no one knows what it will be worth next week so you don't know how much to charge for anything.



I don't consider speculation to be utility. These people don't want bitcoin they want the real currency they think they can exchange it for later on. The problem is that until they exchange it for real currency they have earned nothing and if everyone wants to exchange it for real currency it's worth nothing.
This is SO 2011!

Bitcoin haters constantly try to ignore the fact that you can transfer bitcoins in any amount around the world within minutes, at low cost (in bitcoins) and without needing anybody's approval.

You might not have a personal use for this facility but that doesn't mean that you get to say that bitcoin has no utility.
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Old 9th July 2022, 09:00 AM   #2544
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is SO 2011!
True then true now.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

Bitcoin haters constantly try to ignore the fact that you can transfer bitcoins in any amount around the world within minutes, at low cost (in bitcoins) and without needing anybody's approval.
There many other better ways to move funds around than bitcoin.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

You might not have a personal use for this facility but that doesn't mean that you get to say that bitcoin has no utility.
When you use a less effective tool to do a job you lose utility. Technically anything that makes you happy produces utility, but if what makes you happy is delivering refrigerators by bicycle the opportunity cost is going to outweigh any personal satisfaction generated. Just because bitcoin gives you happy feelings doesn't mean it provides any net benefits to anyone, in fact the opportunity costs harm everyone.
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Old 9th July 2022, 06:55 PM   #2545
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is SO 2011!

Bitcoin haters constantly try to ignore the fact that you can transfer bitcoins in any amount around the world within minutes, at low cost (in bitcoins) and without needing anybody's approval.
You say that like it's a good thing.

Quote:
You might not have a personal use for this facility but that doesn't mean that you get to say that bitcoin has no utility.
For the vast majority its utility is so low it might as well be zero.
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Old 10th July 2022, 01:01 AM   #2546
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You say that like it's a good thing.
It is.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
For the vast majority me its utility is so low it might as well be zero.
ftfy.
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Old 12th July 2022, 04:46 AM   #2547
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As bitcoin and the cryptosphere generally inexorably lurch towards the maker, it is sad to see how lives have been obliterated by the evil crypto embodies.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...K2EWUATCE4Z2E/

"During the pandemic, we bought a plot of land for US$5,000 not far from here," she said, looking up towards the verdant hillside.

"We had US$7,000 in savings to build a house, but my husband became obsessed with Bitcoin. He put US$1,000 in the account but it went down to US$400. I told him to withdraw, but he put more in because the president kept saying it would go up. It never did.

"We lost thousands and now can't afford a roof. We have a plot of land with just walls."

Molina, who has a 6-year-old daughter, earns just US$10 a day. Inflation in El Salvador was 7.5 per cent in May, but food prices are up by 13.5 per cent.

"We can't get a loan from the bank now. We've had to put our dream on pause. We're worried about what to eat each day, not about Bitcoin going up and down."
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Old 12th July 2022, 05:12 AM   #2548
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I went into a gas station this morning and to my chagrin forgot to take a picture of the window where there was a "bitcoin ATM buy bitcoin here" sign directly above the "live bait" sign. Which I found funny for some reason. If they were selling tulip bulbs it would have been too on the nose.

This has meaning. I have no idea what, but at this point there being a bitcoin ATM in the second biggest (of two) gas stations in an off the beaten trail West Virginia town of 2500 people where the average age is probably north of 50 and the median household income about 50K, well...
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Old 12th July 2022, 05:27 AM   #2549
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
As bitcoin and the cryptosphere generally inexorably lurch towards the maker,
Is it an inexorable lurch, or just a readjustment before settling into a more stable trading pattern or even soaring upwards in price ?

I've always been sceptical of crypto-currencies because I don't understand what underpins their value, but if I'd listened to people in this thread a few years ago and bought bitcoin when they advocated doing so (and when they reportedly did it themselves) then I wouldn't have to work any more.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
it is sad to see how lives have been obliterated by the evil crypto embodies.[/i]
Yes, that is something to consider. Don't invest what you cannot afford to lose and/or make sure to diversify.

If the man in the news story had just invested $1k of his $7k then for sure he'd be rueing his decision but he wouldn't have been ruined.
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Old 13th July 2022, 07:04 PM   #2550
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If the man in the news story had just invested $1k of his $7k then for sure he'd be rueing his decision but he wouldn't have been ruined.
He did invest it - in Bitcoin.

But Bitcoin is a very risky investment. Why? We all know the reason. Its value represents only sentiment. Most of the people who buy and hold it only do so because they are hoping expecting the price will go up dramatically. So long as they continue to think that, it will (at least until the next time it crashes). But faith can only keep a scam ponzi scheme fake money imaginary commodity virtual currency going for so long. Other coins have crashed out not because they had less utility, but simply because they weren't as 'famous' as Bitcoin. One day Bitcoin itself may join them.
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Old 13th July 2022, 07:09 PM   #2551
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It is.
Your opinion only. For many of us it has not been a good thing at all.

Quote:
ftfy.
Nearly 8 billion people in the world and I am the only one that Bitcoin doesn't have enough utility for? I don't think so...
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Old 13th July 2022, 08:35 PM   #2552
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Your opinion only. For many of us it has not been a good thing at all.
How has it been a bad thing for you?
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Old 14th July 2022, 03:21 AM   #2553
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Is it an inexorable lurch, or just a readjustment before settling into a more stable trading pattern or even soaring upwards in price ?

I've always been sceptical of crypto-currencies because I don't understand what underpins their value, but if I'd listened to people in this thread a few years ago and bought bitcoin when they advocated doing so (and when they reportedly did it themselves) then I wouldn't have to work any more.



Yes, that is something to consider. Don't invest what you cannot afford to lose and/or make sure to diversify.

If the man in the news story had just invested $1k of his $7k then for sure he'd be rueing his decision but he wouldn't have been ruined.
I think the billions Michael Saylor invested for people matter little, but here we had the widow's mite gone by virtue of an irresponsible head of state.
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Old 14th July 2022, 03:52 AM   #2554
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I think the billions Michael Saylor invested for people matter little, but here we had the widow's mite gone by virtue of an irresponsible head of state husband.
ftfy.
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Old 14th July 2022, 04:05 AM   #2555
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.
Never blame the broker?
There we have a population scarcely with the gods eye view we all modestly claim in these parts.
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Old 14th July 2022, 11:20 AM   #2556
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
I went into a gas station this morning and to my chagrin forgot to take a picture of the window where there was a "bitcoin ATM buy bitcoin here" sign directly above the "live bait" sign. Which I found funny for some reason. If they were selling tulip bulbs it would have been too on the nose.

This has meaning. I have no idea what, but at this point there being a bitcoin ATM in the second biggest (of two) gas stations in an off the beaten trail West Virginia town of 2500 people where the average age is probably north of 50 and the median household income about 50K, well...
You're a bit late to the party. Bitcoin ATMs have been at gas stations for years. They started in more densely populated areas but kept expanding. My town has one as well and has a similar population.
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Old 14th July 2022, 11:32 AM   #2557
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Around here they are in the "Totally for tobacco use only no realzies" headshops next to the glass pipes and the rolling papers.
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Old 19th July 2022, 05:18 AM   #2558
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are the one who is not engaging. No matter what counter arguments are made, you simply repeat discredited arguments that were made more than 10 years ago over and over again.
You haven't made any counter arguments. I asked what cryptocurrency is useful for that is both legal and not better served by fiat currency.

No answer. Zip. Nothing. Nada.

All I've had so far from any of you crypto cultists is that "it's not regulated". That's not a use and it's a major disadvantage compared to fiat currency.
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Old 19th July 2022, 05:29 AM   #2559
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How has it been a bad thing for you?
The two main reasons I can think of off the top of my head for regulating the movement of money around the world are to make it harder to launder the proceeds of crimes and to prevent the evasion of taxes.

Neither money laundering nor tax evasion are good for me as a potential crime victim and a user of government services like education, healthcare, roads, law enforcement etc.
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Old 19th July 2022, 06:25 AM   #2560
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
You haven't made any counter arguments. I asked what cryptocurrency is useful for that is both legal and not better served by fiat currency.

No answer. Zip. Nothing. Nada.

All I've had so far from any of you crypto cultists is that "it's not regulated". That's not a use and it's a major disadvantage compared to fiat currency.
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