[Merged] Bitcoin - Part 3 - Page 57

EaglePuncher · 25th May 2022, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Bitcoin isn't even useful for this anymore. The early years of being used to buy drugs off the dark web were an anomaly. The public ledger is easy to track and there are plenty of tools out there for cops or others to track transactions.

Any usefulness as a way to engage in black market deals was probably more to do with novelty than anything. Those days are well behind us and there's plenty of understanding and tools out there to follow the digital money. The only exception would be for ransomware, but these invariably rely on the fact that the operators are overseas and beyond the reach of law enforcement than any anonymity granted by bitcoin payments.

Other cryptos claim to provide anonymity for transactions, but bitcoin hasn't been well suited for this for some time now.

Thanks, you're 100% right, my points are outdated.

psionl0 · 25th May 2022, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Yes it does. The profits of the early adopters are funded by the stakes of the late comers. So while it's not strictly a ponzi scheme, it does share some characteristics.

Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist.

Originally Posted by jeremyp

Yes it's great for doing things that are illegal (although not as great as many of the criminals think).

It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money.

EaglePuncher · 25th May 2022, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist.

It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money.

#1 Fanboy completely (and probably willingly) ignores the fact (and the post from a few hours ago) that Bitcoin hasn't been about privacy for a long time now. I just realized that fact, why can't you.

psionl0 · 25th May 2022, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

#1 Fanboy completely (and probably willingly) ignores the fact (and the post from a few hours ago) that Bitcoin hasn't been about privacy for a long time now. I just realized that fact, why can't you.

So you no longer have an argument against bitcoin.

Its utility is still that nobody can steal your bitcoins (unless you are careless) and nobody can prevent you transferring bitcoins to another wallet. It's just that criminals don't benefit from that any more. Right?

EaglePuncher · 25th May 2022, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

So you no longer have an argument against bitcoin.

Its utility is still that nobody can steal your bitcoins (unless you are careless) and nobody can prevent you transferring bitcoins to another wallet. It's just that criminals don't benefit from that any more. Right?

lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you?

Dr.Sid · 25th May 2022, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you?

IMHO lol.

The_Animus · 25th May 2022, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Bitcoin isn't even useful for this anymore. The early years of being used to buy drugs off the dark web were an anomaly. The public ledger is easy to track and there are plenty of tools out there for cops or others to track transactions.

Any usefulness as a way to engage in black market deals was probably more to do with novelty than anything. The only exception would be for ransomware, but these invariably rely on the fact that the operators are overseas and beyond the reach of law enforcement than any anonymity granted by bitcoin payments.

Other cryptos claim to provide anonymity for transactions, but bitcoin hasn't been well suited for this for some time now.

I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who

EaglePuncher · 25th May 2022, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

IMHO lol.

Please, Sir, elaborate.

EaglePuncher · 25th May 2022, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who

Pheeew, relax everyone, buying illegal stuff is still possible.

Suddenly · 25th May 2022, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you?

As I type this they are worth roughly $30K each. The intrinsic worth argument against bitcoin is a terrible argument.

Especially given there are so many better ones out there to illustrate that bitcoin is dangerous garbage.

SuburbanTurkey · 25th May 2022, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who

The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard.

The_Animus · 25th May 2022, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard.

I know exchanges exist that don't require personal identification though that tends to be more for like visa gift cards rather than cash in your bank account. You can also cash out amounts of $900 or less at crypto atms located at businesses such as gas stations and all you need is a phone number to receive a text code and any name you feel like giving the machine. But at the point of cashing out, does it matter if you're known? As mentioned earlier if you're doing it right or using a coin join you should be able to obfuscate where the coins came from and then cash out at any exchange as yourself.

EaglePuncher · 25th May 2022, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

As I type this they are worth roughly $30K each. The intrinsic worth argument against bitcoin is a terrible argument.

Especially given there are so many better ones out there to illustrate that bitcoin is dangerous garbage.

carlitos · 25th May 2022, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist.

I would not call bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but it deflationary to the point of being evil. If there will only ever be 21 million coins, and probably 3 or 4 million are already lost, and you gotta get in early or "you're not gonna make it..." What happens to people who didn't get in early, or maybe weren't born yet? These whales with their zillions in bitcoin want to take over the world and have non-bitcoin people be serfs or something.

Originally Posted by psionl0

It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money.

Your what now?

psionl0 · 25th May 2022, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard.

If you are just hodling (or making "legal" transactions) then that shouldn't matter. Sure, you would probably have to tell the tax man about any profits you made but that is also reasonable.

If you really want to fund terrorism or something then bitcoin is probably not the coin for you. Blockchain forensics is becoming a big thing now.

psionl0 · 25th May 2022, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

I would not call bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but it deflationary to the point of being evil. If there will only ever be 21 million coins, and probably 3 or 4 million are already lost, and you gotta get in early or "you're not gonna make it..." What happens to people who didn't get in early, or maybe weren't born yet? These whales with their zillions in bitcoin want to take over the world and have non-bitcoin people be serfs or something.

Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory?

People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming".

As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.

EaglePuncher · 26th May 2022, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory?

People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming".

As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.

Oh silly me, I thought buyers want to buy low, sell high and then run as fast as they can from the silly clown show that bitcoin is.

psionl0 · 26th May 2022, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

Oh silly me, I thought buyers want to buy low, sell high and then run as fast as they can from the silly clown show that bitcoin is.

No you didn't.

EaglePuncher · 26th May 2022, 03:59 AM

Angry guy is reminded of all the money of his that's stuck in bitcoin forever.

SuburbanTurkey · 26th May 2022, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by The_Animus

I know exchanges exist that don't require personal identification though that tends to be more for like visa gift cards rather than cash in your bank account. You can also cash out amounts of $900 or less at crypto atms located at businesses such as gas stations and all you need is a phone number to receive a text code and any name you feel like giving the machine. But at the point of cashing out, does it matter if you're known? As mentioned earlier if you're doing it right or using a coin join you should be able to obfuscate where the coins came from and then cash out at any exchange as yourself.

I guess the bitfinex hackers were just incompetent, because it seems like they were having a lot of trouble turning hot bitcoin into clean cash. The bulk of their stolen funds remained in the original wallet, and they abandoned smaller amounts in locked exchange accounts when they couldn't supply demanded ID info. They were successful in getting some of the stolen coins cashed out into gold or gift cards like you say, but then again it seems like they eventually did something that attracted the attentions of the feds while never even coming close to laundering the bulk of the stolen coins.

At small enough cash amounts it may be possible, though I imagine the high cost of bitcoin transactions makes this painful. Laundering larger quantities seems extremely difficult.

gnome · 26th May 2022, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

People who got in early were just lucky.

Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known.

Dr.Sid · 26th May 2022, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

Angry guy is reminded of all the money of his that's stuck in bitcoin forever.

Stuck forever in bitcoin ? What ? Oh .. I see .. humor again ..

Suddenly · 26th May 2022, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

. But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.

Even ignoring 51% attack type issues....

If they want a deflationary currency, well, they aren't particularly bright.

It's sort of wild watching these cats obsess about Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe and so on where external forces caused inflationary collapse and ignore centuries of human history reflecting how not having control over the volume of currency led to vicious boom and bust cycles.

How in the big picture having control over the currency has prevented way, way more damage than it has ever caused. Even in cases of inflationary collapse it would have been no better if inflation wasn't an option.

SuburbanTurkey · 26th May 2022, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Suddenly

Even ignoring 51% attack type issues....

If they want a deflationary currency, well, they aren't particularly bright.

It's sort of wild watching these cats obsess about Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe and so on where external forces caused inflationary collapse and ignore centuries of human history reflecting how not having control over the volume of currency led to vicious boom and bust cycles.

How in the big picture having control over the currency has prevented way, way more damage than it has ever caused. Even in cases of inflationary collapse it would have been no better if inflation wasn't an option.

You'd also have to pretend not to notice that the current drop in bitcoin prices going on right now are absolutely related to the general recessionary fears that are also plunging conventional investments.

There's 0 reason to believe that crpytos are somehow insulated from a generally poor economic climate. If money is tight, people are going to become more risk averse, which means yanking their funds out of volatile investment vehicles like bitcoin. Inflation or recession hurt bitcoin just like everything else.

Quote:

Gold has remained steady as stocks and bitcoin have plunged. Here’s where it could go next

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/gold...e-plunged.html

Suddenly · 26th May 2022, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known.

I mean, still lucky.

I knew about it pretty early and knew people into it. The poker scene has more than a few Libertarians running around many of whom abandoned poker for crypto because it's a way better hustle.

I thought it was totally unworkable as currency because of the deflationary nature. I'm still right about that. What I didn't foresee is a massive evangelical hodler movement jacking up the price leading to a whole industry dedicated to roping in more buyers of such size that they purchased naming rights to Los Angeles's primary indoor sporting venue. Sponsoring F1 cars, etc.

carlitos · 26th May 2022, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory?

Who said it was a conspiracy theory? Bitcoin maxis are quite open about their intentions and goals. They want to own this currency that will dominate the world financial markets, and if I don't buy in, I can "have fun staying poor."

Originally Posted by psionl0

People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming".

I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation. I am skeptical that this is due to luck.

Originally Posted by psionl0

As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.

No kidding.

psionl0 · 26th May 2022, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known.

Are we talking about the psychics again?

EaglePuncher · 26th May 2022, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Are we talking about the psychics again?

He asks while he predicts the future of bitcoin every single day.

psionl0 · 26th May 2022, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Who said it was a conspiracy theory? Bitcoin maxis are quite open about their intentions and goals. They want to own this currency that will dominate the world financial markets, and if I don't buy in, I can "have fun staying poor."

Wow. I am only willing to cautiously say that bitcoin hasn't reached its highest price yet. You are claiming that it will "dominate the world financial markets".

Originally Posted by carlitos

I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation.

Don't you think that this fact would be a major impediment to bitcoin's march towards world domination?

Originally Posted by carlitos

I am skeptical that this is due to luck.

So what do you think is really going on?
- Are they psychic after all?
- Did they run a major advertising blitz that nobody knows about?
- Are they exercising some Jedi mind control powers over the world's population?

carlitos · 26th May 2022, 10:07 AM

When I say "they" I do not mean that "I" believe something. Few understand this.

carlitos · 26th May 2022, 10:47 AM

This is kind of interesting - the bitcoin futures ETF by Grayscale is undervalued by a quarter. Which means that around 3% of the global bitcoin supply is stuck in a fund that is only worth 75% of the bitcoin it represents.

People who bought this fund were betting that the SEC would approve it converting from a futures ETF to a spot bitcoin market, but that's not happening. So Grayscale can sit on half a billion bitcoins and do whatever with the price spread, meaning that they make half a billion DOLLARS a year by keeping their investors in limbo.

Welcome to Grayscale's Hotel California

psionl0 · 26th May 2022, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

When I say "they" I do not mean that "I" believe something. Few understand this.

So we are back to "lucky" then. "Their" hopes/beliefs panned out.

carlitos · 26th May 2022, 07:53 PM

Imagine if you started engaging honestly, how much the discussion would improve.

psionl0 · 26th May 2022, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Imagine if you started engaging honestly, how much the discussion would improve.

It's amazing how often the words "I disagree with you" get changed to "you are a liar".

You vaguely suggested that more than luck was involved but refused to elaborate.

Samson · 26th May 2022, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by EaglePuncher

Yes, dodging taxes, buying drugs, buying child porn, holding until one gets rich and then never buy bitcoin again Really great!

Originally Posted by carlitos

This is kind of interesting - the bitcoin futures ETF by Grayscale is undervalued by a quarter. Which means that around 3% of the global bitcoin supply is stuck in a fund that is only worth 75% of the bitcoin it represents.

People who bought this fund were betting that the SEC would approve it converting from a futures ETF to a spot bitcoin market, but that's not happening. So Grayscale can sit on half a billion bitcoins and do whatever with the price spread, meaning that they make half a billion DOLLARS a year by keeping their investors in limbo.

Welcome to Grayscale's Hotel California

I would expect investors to see this fund like the doomed micro strategy holding of Michael Saylor.
"We will never sell".

psionl0 · 27th May 2022, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation. I am skeptical that this is due to luck.

If it is your contention that there was something underhanded about how the early blocks were mined then you are mistaken. It's all a matter of public record.

The Genesis block was first created on 3 January 2009 and the entity known as Satoshi Nakamoto started mining 6 days later. On February 11 2009 Nakamoto posted about bitcoin on the P2P foundation forum and included a link to the necessary software. (https://news.bitcoin.com/13-years-ag...ucing-bitcoin/).

Obviously Nakamoto and those who initially decided to install the software in those early months mined the bulk of the blocks but contrary to suspicions, there was no "secret cabal" amassing huge numbers of bitcoin before letting anybody know about its existence.

EaglePuncher · 27th May 2022, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

If it is your contention that there was something underhanded about how the early blocks were mined then you are mistaken. It's all a matter of public record.

The Genesis block was first created on 3 January 2009 and the entity known as Satoshi Nakamoto started mining 6 days later. On February 11 2009 Nakamoto posted about bitcoin on the P2P foundation forum and included a link to the necessary software. (https://news.bitcoin.com/13-years-ag...ucing-bitcoin/).

Obviously Nakamoto and those who initially decided to install the software in those early months mined the bulk of the blocks but contrary to suspicions, there was no "secret cabal" amassing huge numbers of bitcoin before letting anybody know about its existence.

I don't know who claimed that but it's telling that you keep fighting straw men.

Samson · 28th May 2022, 12:42 AM

Psion10 actually drags facts into the thread which I find helpful.

EaglePuncher · 28th May 2022, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

Psion10 actually drags facts into the thread which I find helpful.

Can you rephrase this so it's even more cryptic?

carlitos · 28th May 2022, 10:02 AM

I’m not going to go through the thread and multi-quote everything to point out where my interlocutor starts the dishonest argumentation with straw men and false binaries.

Enjoy the weekend. Crypto never sleeps, but I sure do.

25th May 2022, 06:46 AM	#2241
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Bitcoin isn't even useful for this anymore. The early years of being used to buy drugs off the dark web were an anomaly. The public ledger is easy to track and there are plenty of tools out there for cops or others to track transactions. Any usefulness as a way to engage in black market deals was probably more to do with novelty than anything. Those days are well behind us and there's plenty of understanding and tools out there to follow the digital money. The only exception would be for ransomware, but these invariably rely on the fact that the operators are overseas and beyond the reach of law enforcement than any anonymity granted by bitcoin payments. Other cryptos claim to provide anonymity for transactions, but bitcoin hasn't been well suited for this for some time now. Thanks, you're 100% right, my points are outdated.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

25th May 2022, 08:23 AM	#2242
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by jeremyp Yes it does. The profits of the early adopters are funded by the stakes of the late comers. So while it's not strictly a ponzi scheme, it does share some characteristics. Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist. Originally Posted by jeremyp Yes it's great for doing things that are illegal (although not as great as many of the criminals think). It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

25th May 2022, 08:27 AM	#2243
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by psionl0 Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist. It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money. #1 Fanboy completely (and probably willingly) ignores the fact (and the post from a few hours ago) that Bitcoin hasn't been about privacy for a long time now. I just realized that fact, why can't you.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

25th May 2022, 08:48 AM	#2244
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher #1 Fanboy completely (and probably willingly) ignores the fact (and the post from a few hours ago) that Bitcoin hasn't been about privacy for a long time now. I just realized that fact, why can't you. So you no longer have an argument against bitcoin. Its utility is still that nobody can steal your bitcoins (unless you are careless) and nobody can prevent you transferring bitcoins to another wallet. It's just that criminals don't benefit from that any more. Right?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

25th May 2022, 08:52 AM	#2245
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by psionl0 So you no longer have an argument against bitcoin. Its utility is still that nobody can steal your bitcoins (unless you are careless) and nobody can prevent you transferring bitcoins to another wallet. It's just that criminals don't benefit from that any more. Right? lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you?
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

25th May 2022, 09:05 AM	#2246
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,821	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you? IMHO lol.

25th May 2022, 09:09 AM	#2247
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,285	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Bitcoin isn't even useful for this anymore. The early years of being used to buy drugs off the dark web were an anomaly. The public ledger is easy to track and there are plenty of tools out there for cops or others to track transactions. Any usefulness as a way to engage in black market deals was probably more to do with novelty than anything. The only exception would be for ransomware, but these invariably rely on the fact that the operators are overseas and beyond the reach of law enforcement than any anonymity granted by bitcoin payments. Other cryptos claim to provide anonymity for transactions, but bitcoin hasn't been well suited for this for some time now. I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,285	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

25th May 2022, 09:10 AM	#2248
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by Dr.Sid IMHO lol. Please, Sir, elaborate.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

25th May 2022, 09:11 AM	#2249
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by The_Animus I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who Pheeew, relax everyone, buying illegal stuff is still possible.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

25th May 2022, 10:42 AM	#2250
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,956	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you? As I type this they are worth roughly $30K each. The intrinsic worth argument against bitcoin is a terrible argument. Especially given there are so many better ones out there to illustrate that bitcoin is dangerous garbage.

25th May 2022, 10:44 AM	#2251
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by The_Animus I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard.

25th May 2022, 02:02 PM	#2252
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,285	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard. I know exchanges exist that don't require personal identification though that tends to be more for like visa gift cards rather than cash in your bank account. You can also cash out amounts of $900 or less at crypto atms located at businesses such as gas stations and all you need is a phone number to receive a text code and any name you feel like giving the machine. But at the point of cashing out, does it matter if you're known? As mentioned earlier if you're doing it right or using a coin join you should be able to obfuscate where the coins came from and then cash out at any exchange as yourself.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,285	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

25th May 2022, 03:49 PM	#2253
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by Suddenly As I type this they are worth roughly $30K each. The intrinsic worth argument against bitcoin is a terrible argument. Especially given there are so many better ones out there to illustrate that bitcoin is dangerous garbage.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

25th May 2022, 04:01 PM	#2254
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	Originally Posted by psionl0 Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist. I would not call bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but it deflationary to the point of being evil. If there will only ever be 21 million coins, and probably 3 or 4 million are already lost, and you gotta get in early or "you're not gonna make it..." What happens to people who didn't get in early, or maybe weren't born yet? These whales with their zillions in bitcoin want to take over the world and have non-bitcoin people be serfs or something. Originally Posted by psionl0 It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money. Your what now?

25th May 2022, 08:13 PM	#2255
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard. If you are just hodling (or making "legal" transactions) then that shouldn't matter. Sure, you would probably have to tell the tax man about any profits you made but that is also reasonable. If you really want to fund terrorism or something then bitcoin is probably not the coin for you. Blockchain forensics is becoming a big thing now.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

25th May 2022, 08:19 PM	#2256
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by carlitos I would not call bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but it deflationary to the point of being evil. If there will only ever be 21 million coins, and probably 3 or 4 million are already lost, and you gotta get in early or "you're not gonna make it..." What happens to people who didn't get in early, or maybe weren't born yet? These whales with their zillions in bitcoin want to take over the world and have non-bitcoin people be serfs or something. Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory? People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming". As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th May 2022, 03:42 AM	#2257
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by psionl0 Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory? People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming". As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion. Oh silly me, I thought buyers want to buy low, sell high and then run as fast as they can from the silly clown show that bitcoin is.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

26th May 2022, 03:52 AM	#2258
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher Oh silly me, I thought buyers want to buy low, sell high and then run as fast as they can from the silly clown show that bitcoin is. No you didn't.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th May 2022, 03:59 AM	#2259
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Angry guy is reminded of all the money of his that's stuck in bitcoin forever.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

26th May 2022, 04:07 AM	#2260
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by The_Animus I know exchanges exist that don't require personal identification though that tends to be more for like visa gift cards rather than cash in your bank account. You can also cash out amounts of $900 or less at crypto atms located at businesses such as gas stations and all you need is a phone number to receive a text code and any name you feel like giving the machine. But at the point of cashing out, does it matter if you're known? As mentioned earlier if you're doing it right or using a coin join you should be able to obfuscate where the coins came from and then cash out at any exchange as yourself. I guess the bitfinex hackers were just incompetent, because it seems like they were having a lot of trouble turning hot bitcoin into clean cash. The bulk of their stolen funds remained in the original wallet, and they abandoned smaller amounts in locked exchange accounts when they couldn't supply demanded ID info. They were successful in getting some of the stolen coins cashed out into gold or gift cards like you say, but then again it seems like they eventually did something that attracted the attentions of the feds while never even coming close to laundering the bulk of the stolen coins. At small enough cash amounts it may be possible, though I imagine the high cost of bitcoin transactions makes this painful. Laundering larger quantities seems extremely difficult.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 26th May 2022 at 04:46 AM.

26th May 2022, 04:31 AM	#2261
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,123	Originally Posted by psionl0 People who got in early were just lucky. Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known.
	__________________

26th May 2022, 04:45 AM	#2262
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,821	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher Angry guy is reminded of all the money of his that's stuck in bitcoin forever. Stuck forever in bitcoin ? What ? Oh .. I see .. humor again ..

26th May 2022, 05:38 AM	#2263
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,956	Originally Posted by psionl0 . But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion. Even ignoring 51% attack type issues.... If they want a deflationary currency, well, they aren't particularly bright. It's sort of wild watching these cats obsess about Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe and so on where external forces caused inflationary collapse and ignore centuries of human history reflecting how not having control over the volume of currency led to vicious boom and bust cycles. How in the big picture having control over the currency has prevented way, way more damage than it has ever caused. Even in cases of inflationary collapse it would have been no better if inflation wasn't an option.

26th May 2022, 05:41 AM	#2264
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Suddenly Even ignoring 51% attack type issues.... If they want a deflationary currency, well, they aren't particularly bright. It's sort of wild watching these cats obsess about Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe and so on where external forces caused inflationary collapse and ignore centuries of human history reflecting how not having control over the volume of currency led to vicious boom and bust cycles. How in the big picture having control over the currency has prevented way, way more damage than it has ever caused. Even in cases of inflationary collapse it would have been no better if inflation wasn't an option. You'd also have to pretend not to notice that the current drop in bitcoin prices going on right now are absolutely related to the general recessionary fears that are also plunging conventional investments. There's 0 reason to believe that crpytos are somehow insulated from a generally poor economic climate. If money is tight, people are going to become more risk averse, which means yanking their funds out of volatile investment vehicles like bitcoin. Inflation or recession hurt bitcoin just like everything else. Quote: Gold has remained steady as stocks and bitcoin have plunged. Here’s where it could go next https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/gold...e-plunged.html
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 26th May 2022 at 05:43 AM.

26th May 2022, 06:04 AM	#2265
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,956	Originally Posted by gnome Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known. I mean, still lucky. I knew about it pretty early and knew people into it. The poker scene has more than a few Libertarians running around many of whom abandoned poker for crypto because it's a way better hustle. I thought it was totally unworkable as currency because of the deflationary nature. I'm still right about that. What I didn't foresee is a massive evangelical hodler movement jacking up the price leading to a whole industry dedicated to roping in more buyers of such size that they purchased naming rights to Los Angeles's primary indoor sporting venue. Sponsoring F1 cars, etc.

26th May 2022, 06:11 AM	#2266
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	Originally Posted by psionl0 Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory? Who said it was a conspiracy theory? Bitcoin maxis are quite open about their intentions and goals. They want to own this currency that will dominate the world financial markets, and if I don't buy in, I can "have fun staying poor." Originally Posted by psionl0 People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming". I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation. I am skeptical that this is due to luck. Originally Posted by psionl0 As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion. No kidding.

26th May 2022, 09:05 AM	#2267
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by gnome Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known. Are we talking about the psychics again?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th May 2022, 09:06 AM	#2268
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691	Originally Posted by psionl0 Are we talking about the psychics again? He asks while he predicts the future of bitcoin every single day.
EaglePuncher Banned Join Date: Jan 2022 Posts: 691

26th May 2022, 09:14 AM	#2269
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by carlitos Who said it was a conspiracy theory? Bitcoin maxis are quite open about their intentions and goals. They want to own this currency that will dominate the world financial markets, and if I don't buy in, I can "have fun staying poor." Wow. I am only willing to cautiously say that bitcoin hasn't reached its highest price yet. You are claiming that it will "dominate the world financial markets". Originally Posted by carlitos I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation. Don't you think that this fact would be a major impediment to bitcoin's march towards world domination? Originally Posted by carlitos I am skeptical that this is due to luck. So what do you think is really going on? - Are they psychic after all? - Did they run a major advertising blitz that nobody knows about? - Are they exercising some Jedi mind control powers over the world's population?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 26th May 2022 at 09:15 AM.

26th May 2022, 10:07 AM	#2270
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	When I say "they" I do not mean that "I" believe something. Few understand this.

26th May 2022, 10:47 AM	#2271
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	This is kind of interesting - the bitcoin futures ETF by Grayscale is undervalued by a quarter. Which means that around 3% of the global bitcoin supply is stuck in a fund that is only worth 75% of the bitcoin it represents. People who bought this fund were betting that the SEC would approve it converting from a futures ETF to a spot bitcoin market, but that's not happening. So Grayscale can sit on half a billion bitcoins and do whatever with the price spread, meaning that they make half a billion DOLLARS a year by keeping their investors in limbo. Welcome to Grayscale's Hotel California

26th May 2022, 05:42 PM	#2272
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by carlitos When I say "they" I do not mean that "I" believe something. Few understand this. So we are back to "lucky" then. "Their" hopes/beliefs panned out.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th May 2022, 07:53 PM	#2273
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	Imagine if you started engaging honestly, how much the discussion would improve.

26th May 2022, 08:13 PM	#2274
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,252	Originally Posted by carlitos Imagine if you started engaging honestly, how much the discussion would improve. It's amazing how often the words "I disagree with you" get changed to "you are a liar". You vaguely suggested that more than luck was involved but refused to elaborate.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th May 2022, 09:40 PM	#2275
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by EaglePuncher Yes, dodging taxes, buying drugs, buying child porn, holding until one gets rich and then never buy bitcoin again Really great! Originally Posted by carlitos This is kind of interesting - the bitcoin futures ETF by Grayscale is undervalued by a quarter. Which means that around 3% of the global bitcoin supply is stuck in a fund that is only worth 75% of the bitcoin it represents. People who bought this fund were betting that the SEC would approve it converting from a futures ETF to a spot bitcoin market, but that's not happening. So Grayscale can sit on half a billion bitcoins and do whatever with the price spread, meaning that they make half a billion DOLLARS a year by keeping their investors in limbo. Welcome to Grayscale's Hotel California I would expect investors to see this fund like the doomed micro strategy holding of Michael Saylor. "We will never sell".