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Old 25th May 2022, 06:46 AM   #2241
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bitcoin isn't even useful for this anymore. The early years of being used to buy drugs off the dark web were an anomaly. The public ledger is easy to track and there are plenty of tools out there for cops or others to track transactions.

Any usefulness as a way to engage in black market deals was probably more to do with novelty than anything. Those days are well behind us and there's plenty of understanding and tools out there to follow the digital money. The only exception would be for ransomware, but these invariably rely on the fact that the operators are overseas and beyond the reach of law enforcement than any anonymity granted by bitcoin payments.

Other cryptos claim to provide anonymity for transactions, but bitcoin hasn't been well suited for this for some time now.
Thanks, you're 100% right, my points are outdated.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:23 AM   #2242
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Yes it does. The profits of the early adopters are funded by the stakes of the late comers. So while it's not strictly a ponzi scheme, it does share some characteristics.
Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist.

Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Yes it's great for doing things that are illegal (although not as great as many of the criminals think).
It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:27 AM   #2243
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist.


It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money.
#1 Fanboy completely (and probably willingly) ignores the fact (and the post from a few hours ago) that Bitcoin hasn't been about privacy for a long time now. I just realized that fact, why can't you.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:48 AM   #2244
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
#1 Fanboy completely (and probably willingly) ignores the fact (and the post from a few hours ago) that Bitcoin hasn't been about privacy for a long time now. I just realized that fact, why can't you.
So you no longer have an argument against bitcoin.

Its utility is still that nobody can steal your bitcoins (unless you are careless) and nobody can prevent you transferring bitcoins to another wallet. It's just that criminals don't benefit from that any more. Right?
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:52 AM   #2245
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you no longer have an argument against bitcoin.

Its utility is still that nobody can steal your bitcoins (unless you are careless) and nobody can prevent you transferring bitcoins to another wallet. It's just that criminals don't benefit from that any more. Right?
lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you?
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:05 AM   #2246
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you?
IMHO lol.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:09 AM   #2247
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Bitcoin isn't even useful for this anymore. The early years of being used to buy drugs off the dark web were an anomaly. The public ledger is easy to track and there are plenty of tools out there for cops or others to track transactions.

Any usefulness as a way to engage in black market deals was probably more to do with novelty than anything. The only exception would be for ransomware, but these invariably rely on the fact that the operators are overseas and beyond the reach of law enforcement than any anonymity granted by bitcoin payments.

Other cryptos claim to provide anonymity for transactions, but bitcoin hasn't been well suited for this for some time now.
I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:10 AM   #2248
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
IMHO lol.
Please, Sir, elaborate.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:11 AM   #2249
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who
Pheeew, relax everyone, buying illegal stuff is still possible.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:42 AM   #2250
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
lol, you still don't get it: Bitcoin was not useful or worth anything ever. Jeeeez, you actually have a shirt with "#1 Bitcoin Fanboy" printed on it, don't you?
As I type this they are worth roughly $30K each. The intrinsic worth argument against bitcoin is a terrible argument.

Especially given there are so many better ones out there to illustrate that bitcoin is dangerous garbage.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:44 AM   #2251
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
I don't think this is accurate but if you have more information I'd be interested in reading it. While the ledger is public and there are tools to help, if there is no personally identifying information tied to your wallet or transactions, then it's still anonymous. Even if your initial purchase had identifiable information you can do coin joins to mix up which coins belong to who
The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard.
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Old 25th May 2022, 02:02 PM   #2252
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard.
I know exchanges exist that don't require personal identification though that tends to be more for like visa gift cards rather than cash in your bank account. You can also cash out amounts of $900 or less at crypto atms located at businesses such as gas stations and all you need is a phone number to receive a text code and any name you feel like giving the machine. But at the point of cashing out, does it matter if you're known? As mentioned earlier if you're doing it right or using a coin join you should be able to obfuscate where the coins came from and then cash out at any exchange as yourself.
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Old 25th May 2022, 03:49 PM   #2253
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
As I type this they are worth roughly $30K each. The intrinsic worth argument against bitcoin is a terrible argument.

Especially given there are so many better ones out there to illustrate that bitcoin is dangerous garbage.
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Old 25th May 2022, 04:01 PM   #2254
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Getting in early on something new is nothing like a Ponzi scheme whatsoever. Even if the early adopters were psychic and knew that bitcoin would take off that would at worst resemble "insider trading". Of course, psychics don't exist.
I would not call bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but it deflationary to the point of being evil. If there will only ever be 21 million coins, and probably 3 or 4 million are already lost, and you gotta get in early or "you're not gonna make it..." What happens to people who didn't get in early, or maybe weren't born yet? These whales with their zillions in bitcoin want to take over the world and have non-bitcoin people be serfs or something.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's funny that people who believe in the right to privacy suddenly think that you are a criminal if you don't want to account to the government for how you spend your money.
Your what now?
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:13 PM   #2255
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The critical point remains trying to turn bitcoin into real money. Finding exchanges that don't have "know your customer" type regulations (just like real banks) is pretty hard.
If you are just hodling (or making "legal" transactions) then that shouldn't matter. Sure, you would probably have to tell the tax man about any profits you made but that is also reasonable.

If you really want to fund terrorism or something then bitcoin is probably not the coin for you. Blockchain forensics is becoming a big thing now.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:19 PM   #2256
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I would not call bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but it deflationary to the point of being evil. If there will only ever be 21 million coins, and probably 3 or 4 million are already lost, and you gotta get in early or "you're not gonna make it..." What happens to people who didn't get in early, or maybe weren't born yet? These whales with their zillions in bitcoin want to take over the world and have non-bitcoin people be serfs or something.
Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory?

People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming".

As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.
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Old 26th May 2022, 03:42 AM   #2257
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory?

People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming".

As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.
Oh silly me, I thought buyers want to buy low, sell high and then run as fast as they can from the silly clown show that bitcoin is.
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Old 26th May 2022, 03:52 AM   #2258
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Oh silly me, I thought buyers want to buy low, sell high and then run as fast as they can from the silly clown show that bitcoin is.
No you didn't.
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Old 26th May 2022, 03:59 AM   #2259
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Angry guy is reminded of all the money of his that's stuck in bitcoin forever.
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Old 26th May 2022, 04:07 AM   #2260
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
I know exchanges exist that don't require personal identification though that tends to be more for like visa gift cards rather than cash in your bank account. You can also cash out amounts of $900 or less at crypto atms located at businesses such as gas stations and all you need is a phone number to receive a text code and any name you feel like giving the machine. But at the point of cashing out, does it matter if you're known? As mentioned earlier if you're doing it right or using a coin join you should be able to obfuscate where the coins came from and then cash out at any exchange as yourself.
I guess the bitfinex hackers were just incompetent, because it seems like they were having a lot of trouble turning hot bitcoin into clean cash. The bulk of their stolen funds remained in the original wallet, and they abandoned smaller amounts in locked exchange accounts when they couldn't supply demanded ID info. They were successful in getting some of the stolen coins cashed out into gold or gift cards like you say, but then again it seems like they eventually did something that attracted the attentions of the feds while never even coming close to laundering the bulk of the stolen coins.

At small enough cash amounts it may be possible, though I imagine the high cost of bitcoin transactions makes this painful. Laundering larger quantities seems extremely difficult.

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Old 26th May 2022, 04:31 AM   #2261
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
People who got in early were just lucky.
Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known.
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Old 26th May 2022, 04:45 AM   #2262
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Angry guy is reminded of all the money of his that's stuck in bitcoin forever.
Stuck forever in bitcoin ? What ? Oh .. I see .. humor again ..
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:38 AM   #2263
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

. But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.
Even ignoring 51% attack type issues....

If they want a deflationary currency, well, they aren't particularly bright.

It's sort of wild watching these cats obsess about Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe and so on where external forces caused inflationary collapse and ignore centuries of human history reflecting how not having control over the volume of currency led to vicious boom and bust cycles.

How in the big picture having control over the currency has prevented way, way more damage than it has ever caused. Even in cases of inflationary collapse it would have been no better if inflation wasn't an option.
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:41 AM   #2264
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Even ignoring 51% attack type issues....

If they want a deflationary currency, well, they aren't particularly bright.

It's sort of wild watching these cats obsess about Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe and so on where external forces caused inflationary collapse and ignore centuries of human history reflecting how not having control over the volume of currency led to vicious boom and bust cycles.

How in the big picture having control over the currency has prevented way, way more damage than it has ever caused. Even in cases of inflationary collapse it would have been no better if inflation wasn't an option.
You'd also have to pretend not to notice that the current drop in bitcoin prices going on right now are absolutely related to the general recessionary fears that are also plunging conventional investments.

There's 0 reason to believe that crpytos are somehow insulated from a generally poor economic climate. If money is tight, people are going to become more risk averse, which means yanking their funds out of volatile investment vehicles like bitcoin. Inflation or recession hurt bitcoin just like everything else.

Quote:
Gold has remained steady as stocks and bitcoin have plunged. Here’s where it could go next
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/gold...e-plunged.html

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Old 26th May 2022, 06:04 AM   #2265
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known.
I mean, still lucky.

I knew about it pretty early and knew people into it. The poker scene has more than a few Libertarians running around many of whom abandoned poker for crypto because it's a way better hustle.

I thought it was totally unworkable as currency because of the deflationary nature. I'm still right about that. What I didn't foresee is a massive evangelical hodler movement jacking up the price leading to a whole industry dedicated to roping in more buyers of such size that they purchased naming rights to Los Angeles's primary indoor sporting venue. Sponsoring F1 cars, etc.
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Old 26th May 2022, 06:11 AM   #2266
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why does it always have to be some sort of "evil" conspiracy theory?
Who said it was a conspiracy theory? Bitcoin maxis are quite open about their intentions and goals. They want to own this currency that will dominate the world financial markets, and if I don't buy in, I can "have fun staying poor."



Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
People who got in early were just lucky. At the time, you couldn't sell 10,000 BTC for $50. The prospect that the day would come when you couldn't sell $10,000 for 1 BTC would have been considered "just dreaming".
I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation. I am skeptical that this is due to luck.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
As for the hard limit, that would simply be a misguided concept economically if bitcoin was to seriously be a global currency (some inflation or demurrage would be necessary). But that is what buyers want - a currency that can't be printed into oblivion.
No kidding.
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Old 26th May 2022, 09:05 AM   #2267
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Aside from the creators and anyone who was let in on it before it became well known.
Are we talking about the psychics again?
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Old 26th May 2022, 09:06 AM   #2268
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are we talking about the psychics again?
He asks while he predicts the future of bitcoin every single day.
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Old 26th May 2022, 09:14 AM   #2269
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Who said it was a conspiracy theory? Bitcoin maxis are quite open about their intentions and goals. They want to own this currency that will dominate the world financial markets, and if I don't buy in, I can "have fun staying poor."
Wow. I am only willing to cautiously say that bitcoin hasn't reached its highest price yet. You are claiming that it will "dominate the world financial markets".

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation.
Don't you think that this fact would be a major impediment to bitcoin's march towards world domination?

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I am skeptical that this is due to luck.
So what do you think is really going on?
- Are they psychic after all?
- Did they run a major advertising blitz that nobody knows about?
- Are they exercising some Jedi mind control powers over the world's population?
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Old 26th May 2022, 10:07 AM   #2270
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When I say "they" I do not mean that "I" believe something. Few understand this.
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Old 26th May 2022, 10:47 AM   #2271
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This is kind of interesting - the bitcoin futures ETF by Grayscale is undervalued by a quarter. Which means that around 3% of the global bitcoin supply is stuck in a fund that is only worth 75% of the bitcoin it represents.

People who bought this fund were betting that the SEC would approve it converting from a futures ETF to a spot bitcoin market, but that's not happening. So Grayscale can sit on half a billion bitcoins and do whatever with the price spread, meaning that they make half a billion DOLLARS a year by keeping their investors in limbo.

Welcome to Grayscale's Hotel California
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:42 PM   #2272
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
When I say "they" I do not mean that "I" believe something. Few understand this.
So we are back to "lucky" then. "Their" hopes/beliefs panned out.
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Old 26th May 2022, 07:53 PM   #2273
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Imagine if you started engaging honestly, how much the discussion would improve.
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Old 26th May 2022, 08:13 PM   #2274
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Imagine if you started engaging honestly, how much the discussion would improve.
It's amazing how often the words "I disagree with you" get changed to "you are a liar".

You vaguely suggested that more than luck was involved but refused to elaborate.
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
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Old 26th May 2022, 09:40 PM   #2275
Samson
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Originally Posted by EaglePuncher View Post
Yes, dodging taxes, buying drugs, buying child porn, holding until one gets rich and then never buy bitcoin again Really great!
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This is kind of interesting - the bitcoin futures ETF by Grayscale is undervalued by a quarter. Which means that around 3% of the global bitcoin supply is stuck in a fund that is only worth 75% of the bitcoin it represents.

People who bought this fund were betting that the SEC would approve it converting from a futures ETF to a spot bitcoin market, but that's not happening. So Grayscale can sit on half a billion bitcoins and do whatever with the price spread, meaning that they make half a billion DOLLARS a year by keeping their investors in limbo.

Welcome to Grayscale's Hotel California
I would expect investors to see this fund like the doomed micro strategy holding of Michael Saylor.
"We will never sell".
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Old 27th May 2022, 10:14 PM   #2276
psionl0
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I can't remember this year's figures, but last year 0.01% of wallet addresses held around 60% of all Bitcoins in circulation. I am skeptical that this is due to luck.
If it is your contention that there was something underhanded about how the early blocks were mined then you are mistaken. It's all a matter of public record.

The Genesis block was first created on 3 January 2009 and the entity known as Satoshi Nakamoto started mining 6 days later. On February 11 2009 Nakamoto posted about bitcoin on the P2P foundation forum and included a link to the necessary software. (https://news.bitcoin.com/13-years-ag...ucing-bitcoin/).

Obviously Nakamoto and those who initially decided to install the software in those early months mined the bulk of the blocks but contrary to suspicions, there was no "secret cabal" amassing huge numbers of bitcoin before letting anybody know about its existence.
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"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
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Old 27th May 2022, 11:32 PM   #2277
EaglePuncher
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If it is your contention that there was something underhanded about how the early blocks were mined then you are mistaken. It's all a matter of public record.

The Genesis block was first created on 3 January 2009 and the entity known as Satoshi Nakamoto started mining 6 days later. On February 11 2009 Nakamoto posted about bitcoin on the P2P foundation forum and included a link to the necessary software. (https://news.bitcoin.com/13-years-ag...ucing-bitcoin/).

Obviously Nakamoto and those who initially decided to install the software in those early months mined the bulk of the blocks but contrary to suspicions, there was no "secret cabal" amassing huge numbers of bitcoin before letting anybody know about its existence.
I don't know who claimed that but it's telling that you keep fighting straw men.
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Old 28th May 2022, 12:42 AM   #2278
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Psion10 actually drags facts into the thread which I find helpful.
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Old 28th May 2022, 03:12 AM   #2279
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Psion10 actually drags facts into the thread which I find helpful.
Can you rephrase this so it's even more cryptic?
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Old 28th May 2022, 10:02 AM   #2280
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I’m not going to go through the thread and multi-quote everything to point out where my interlocutor starts the dishonest argumentation with straw men and false binaries.

Enjoy the weekend. Crypto never sleeps, but I sure do.
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