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Old 7th June 2022, 09:45 PM   #2321
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Which is exactly how real estate works in New Zealand anyway. Capital gains tax is ridiculous in this context.
So there are no property taxes in New Zealand?
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Old 7th June 2022, 11:07 PM   #2322
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
So there are no property taxes in New Zealand?
No and the enduring trick is to keep buying properties with capital gain from the previous ones, and never sell. No tax at all.
I think this will be Michael Saylor's strategy but first catch rabbit!

Last edited by Samson; 7th June 2022 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 9th June 2022, 01:17 PM   #2323
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
No and the enduring trick is to keep buying properties with capital gain from the previous ones, and never sell. No tax at all.
I think this will be Michael Saylor's strategy but first catch rabbit!
Hmm...

Taxation in New Zealand
Quote:
There are currently no land taxes, but local property taxes (rates) are managed and collected by local authorities.
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Old 9th June 2022, 05:32 PM   #2324
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Rates are typically 2,500 a year, and shared by average occupants of 3 or 4, about $800, or $16 per week per person.
These are for services delivered, nothing to do with property ownership by this simple model.
Rates are levied according to potential and value, for example a property worth 10 million dollars will pay about 0.13% per annum in rates as a rough example.
The property has risen in value by 1000% in 20 years and the foreign owners will never pay tax on this.

Eta, Michael Saylor will not be planning to pay tax on bitcoin $1 m

Last edited by Samson; 9th June 2022 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 10th June 2022, 06:21 AM   #2325
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No
Your arguments are inconsistent.

One one hand, the original intent for bitcoin was to be a decentralized currency / payment system, but you seem to argue that this is no longer true. So it's a "store of value" then. Which makes it part of the global financial markets. But the intersection of those markets and bitcoin is a stable coin, like Tether or USDC. Or Terra / Luna, lol.
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Old 10th June 2022, 06:52 AM   #2326
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Your arguments are inconsistent.

One one hand, the original intent for bitcoin was to be a decentralized currency / payment system, but you seem to argue that this is no longer true. So it's a "store of value" then. Which makes it part of the global financial markets. But the intersection of those markets and bitcoin is a stable coin, like Tether or USDC. Or Terra / Luna, lol.
How do you need stablecoin to store value in Bitcoin ?
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Old 10th June 2022, 04:51 PM   #2327
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
How do you need stablecoin to store value in Bitcoin ?
In theory, an individual can store bitcoin on a usb drive in their pocket, no problem. However, that bitcoin derives its value from its interactions with the broader financial markets. People who trade this stuff don't want to withdraw "fiat" currency from the market every time they trade, so they use a stable coin to facilitate movement between exchanges or crypto-currency investments.

The value of bitcoin is very highly dependent on these stable coins, as you observed when one of them collapsed a few weeks ago. Exit liquidity. Terra started wobbling and losing its peg on May 8-9. Bitcoin fell off a cliff when that happened, and it's still down 30% since then. If Tether falls, bitcoin will be affordable again real soon.
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Old 10th June 2022, 08:49 PM   #2328
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Your arguments are inconsistent.

One one hand, the original intent for bitcoin was to be a decentralized currency / payment system, but you seem to argue that this is no longer true. So it's a "store of value" then. Which makes it part of the global financial markets. But the intersection of those markets and bitcoin is a stable coin, like Tether or USDC. Or Terra / Luna, lol.
There is no inconsistency in my arguments. There is no rule that says that the value of bitcoin has to be tied to the value of some other crypto. Its value is what people are willing to pay for it and it is usually valued in USD.

"Stable" coins might make it easier to trade BTC and their collapse might negatively impact on the price but there are many factors that impact on the price of BTC and the failure of an alt-coin can ultimately only have a temporary effect on the price of bitcoin.

When priced against bitcoin, most alt coins are losing value.
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Old 11th June 2022, 09:39 PM   #2329
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Rates are typically 2,500 a year...
These are for services delivered, nothing to do with property ownership by this simple model.
So you can opt out of 'services rendered' and pay no rates?

Quote:
The property has risen in value by 1000% in 20 years and the foreign owners will never pay tax on this.
Except for rates, which are a property tax.

Can foreigners buy a residential property in New Zealand?
Quote:
“It is virtually impossible now for investors from the UK, US or China, among others, to buy a residential property in New Zealand,” Mark Harris, co-founder and managing director of New Zealand Sotheby’s International Realty, told Tatler Asia.

In August 2018, the government amended the Overseas Investment Amendment Act banning most non-resident foreigners from purchasing existing homes by classifying these properties as “sensitive land” and introducing a residency test.
My previous property rose in value by 1000% (10 times) in 37 years. My current property's value doubled in 4 years. I haven't paid any tax (except rates) on either of them. Should I have? If so, how much?
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Old 11th June 2022, 10:47 PM   #2330
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no inconsistency in my arguments. There is no rule that says that the value of bitcoin has to be tied to the value of some other crypto. Its value is what people are willing to pay for it and it is usually valued in USD.

"Stable" coins might make it easier to trade BTC and their collapse might negatively impact on the price but there are many factors that impact on the price of BTC and the failure of an alt-coin can ultimately only have a temporary effect on the price of bitcoin.

When priced against bitcoin, most alt coins are losing value.

Yes everything that ever happens will only have a “temporary effect” on a volatile asset like bitcoin so that point is completely specious. Bitcoin going to $0.01 would be temporary as would $100,000.

I obviously did not say that there was a “rule” tying bitcoin to other crypto currencies — but the volatile ones all seem to rise and fall together. Bitcoin and Binance (BNB) are correlated at 97% this year. Bitcoin is very strongly correlated to other cryptos. Maybe the open market makes the rules.

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Old 13th June 2022, 01:47 AM   #2331
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Bitcoin is very strongly correlated to other cryptos.
That is not the point I was making. Although all cryptos are currently losing value, the others are losing it faster. So the values of the other cryptos are falling compared to bitcoin.
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Old 13th June 2022, 04:58 AM   #2332
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is not the point I was making. Although all cryptos are currently losing value, the others are losing it faster. So the values of the other cryptos are falling compared to bitcoin.
Yes but the cryptoverse is crashing after 3 big legs up.
1. Clever people
2. Average people
3. Stupid people.

Elliot described this more as a sociologist than technical analyst and I named the waves myself.

I consider Michael Saylor a reasonable guy but in deep dooda. He says he will never sell but who would be happy to cart 4 billion to 1 billion and manage phone calls from those privileged by his genius?
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Old 13th June 2022, 05:44 AM   #2333
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Bitcoin - Part 3

The largest exchange for trading bitcoin (by a LOT) just paused bitcoin trading. Whatever their excuse, this is to allow big exchanges to move their liquidity that they pulled from the failing Celsius net work over the weekend. A transparent bunch of scammers.

ETA - tweet from the Binance boss, lol “funds are SAFU” means “safe” in Chan-speak.


Last edited by carlitos; 13th June 2022 at 05:49 AM. Reason: Photo
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Old 13th June 2022, 06:02 AM   #2334
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I consider Michael Saylor a reasonable guy…..

This guy, last December, advised people to mortgage their houses and buy bitcoin at around $40.000.


Michael Saylor’s current twitter profile pic. Keep in mind this guy is CEO of a public company.


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Old 13th June 2022, 07:50 AM   #2335
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This guy, last December, advised people to mortgage their houses and buy bitcoin at around $40.000.

Michael Saylor’s current twitter profile pic. Keep in mind this guy is CEO of a public company.
Saylor is interesting. Back in the dot-com meltdown he was the poster child of tech fraud. He had appeared on 60 mins. previously in a puff piece on Microstrategy. But the dot-com meltdown happened at the same time his company was accused of accounting fraud that made the company look better than it was. Shortly after that I started following his stock, MSTR. Over the next few years the stock dropped like a rock. The company took out "toxic financing" in the form of, convertable to shares, bonds. These could be converted at share market price so the more the stock dropped the higher the dilution. This, of course, hurt the stock price. These were common back then and sometimes referred to as "death spiral financing."

At the same time he closely avoided a DoJ referal and settled with the SEC. One of the terms was the requirement to accept some new board directors, aka adult supervision.

I followed the SEC filings for years out of curiousity and was impressed with the company's gradual, but effective, recovery. I could almost visualize what was happening in the biz by reading each of the Q's and K's. Eventually, they stabilized, fixed their toxic financing, and leveled off after about a 99% stock decline.

One day I read the SEC filings and discovered the time had expired for the required oversight directors to be retained and they were due to be replaced at the annual meeting. Critically, and most unusually, these directors were exercising all their stock options but not selling any even though they were exiting. Unusual because normally exercises are accompanied by a partial or full sell at market. And on top of it they were leaving and unwanted because the SEC forced them on the company.

At that point I made the largest investment in a single public company I'd ever done. A few months later the annual meeting was held, the company announced excellent earnings, and the stock rose. A lot. I sold and cleared 6 figures profit. It pays to read, and understand, SEC filings.

My take is that Saylor wants to return to his glory days cut short by the dot-com collapse. His main business is solid but boring and he decided to ride the crypto train. Not my cup of tea. I like investments that generate income/profit from actually doing or selling stuff.
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Old 13th June 2022, 10:36 AM   #2336
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Thanks for sharing that. Saylor’s insanity has his company about to get margin called on a few billion dollars worth of bitcoin that they borrowed to buy at average cost of around $30.000.
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Old 13th June 2022, 01:53 PM   #2337
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The Crypto bubble...like all bubbles...has burst.
I bet that Matt Damon regrets that commerical he did last year (and which you could not go to a movie last December without seeing before the previews started) pushing Crypto and suggesting that anybody not investing in Crypto was a coward and a luddite.
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Old 13th June 2022, 01:58 PM   #2338
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
"What is how you refute economic libertarianism in ten words?"
Always muses me that Libertarians make such a big deal about how their philosophy is based on reason, and then they buy into totallly irrational crap.
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Old 13th June 2022, 02:45 PM   #2339
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Crypto bubble...like all bubbles...has burst.
I bet that Matt Damon regrets that commerical he did last year (and which you could not go to a movie last December without seeing before the previews started) pushing Crypto and suggesting that anybody not investing in Crypto was a coward and a luddite.
It goes up, it goes down. Wouldn't really call it "bursting bubble" .. for that I would expect the price to rise uncontrollably before the drop. Like in 2017. This is just price dropping after previous drop.
Not that it make a difference for someone who bought BTC yesterday .. like I did
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Old 13th June 2022, 02:51 PM   #2340
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It goes up, it goes down. Wouldn't really call it "bursting bubble" .. for that I would expect the price to rise uncontrollably before the drop. Like in 2017. This is just price dropping after previous drop.
Not that it make a difference for someone who bought BTC yesterday .. like I did
ANd what part of "Cryptocurrency has no actual value" did'nt you get?
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Old 13th June 2022, 03:40 PM   #2341
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This guy, last December, advised people to mortgage their houses and buy bitcoin at around $40.000.


Michael Saylor’s current twitter profile pic. Keep in mind this guy is CEO of a public company.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9e4c9385e6.jpg
Yeah, that guy looks really reasonable to me..........
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Old 13th June 2022, 06:08 PM   #2342
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I note that the crypto currency defenders here seem all to be people who fancy themselves as anti establishment types.
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Old 13th June 2022, 06:14 PM   #2343
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, that guy looks really reasonable to me..........
It was the debate with the gold guy on youtube that sounded reasonable. Will look for the link.
Both sides argued civilly and of course I liked the gold guy but Saylor looked right at the time on the current trends.
He looks hopelessly wrong now and his life must be misery.
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Old 13th June 2022, 07:08 PM   #2344
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANd what part of "Cryptocurrency has no actual value" did'nt you get?
What is value ? It has a price ..
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Old 13th June 2022, 07:15 PM   #2345
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Meanwhile Jim Cramer ridicules poor old Saylor. Under 21k MicroStrategy risks liquidation.

https://www.tradingview.com/markets/...rrencies/news/
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Old 13th June 2022, 07:32 PM   #2346
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
…………Although all cryptos are currently losing value, the others are losing it faster. So the values of the other cryptos are falling compared to bitcoin.

Not so much right now.

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Old 13th June 2022, 09:01 PM   #2347
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It's clear that block[chain]heads don't understand what bubbles are and why they burst. Put simply, it's when a market is wildly overvalued (bubble) and then people realize it and run away from the overvalued investments (burst). Usually, these things have a floor because there is some inherent value in <x> number of investments. The problem with Bitcoin in specific and blockchain in general is that x=0. They are wasted electricity, period. Hopefully, the entire sector will die in flames before we have to ban it in an attempt to prevent humanity from dying in flames.
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Old 13th June 2022, 09:49 PM   #2348
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's clear that block[chain]heads don't understand what bubbles are and why they burst. Put simply, it's when a market is wildly overvalued (bubble) and then people realize it and run away from the overvalued investments (burst). Usually, these things have a floor because there is some inherent value in <x> number of investments. The problem with Bitcoin in specific and blockchain in general is that x=0. They are wasted electricity, period.
The problem with anti-block[chain]heads is that because they have no desire to use a crypto currency, it must have zero intrinsic value. They insist that their dog is really a cat because it has 4 legs.

Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Hopefully, the entire sector will die in flames before we have to ban it in an attempt to prevent humanity from dying in flames.
Yes, because we need more police, lawyers, judges, prison officers and jails.
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Old 14th June 2022, 03:27 AM   #2349
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
A 24 hour snapshot can prove anything but if you look at the trend over several months the you will see that I am correct.
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Old 14th June 2022, 07:03 AM   #2350
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Coinbase to lay off 18% of its ~5,000 person workforce and suggest "crypto winter" is coming.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/14/inves...pto/index.html
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Old 14th June 2022, 07:35 AM   #2351
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post


Yes, because we need more police, lawyers, judges, prison officers and jails.
Probably not, but we need to be allocating way more of them large scale financial shenanigans rather than counterproductive controlled substance interdiction.

Dealing with this level of fraud is what all those cops should be doing rather than pulling over people for changing lanes too fast or too slow in a fishing expedition to see if someone in there has a quarter bag.
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Old 14th June 2022, 08:26 AM   #2352
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BTC down to 21K, guess it's time to buy the dip, lol.
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Old 14th June 2022, 09:20 AM   #2353
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Probably not, but we need to be allocating way more of them large scale financial shenanigans rather than counterproductive controlled substance interdiction.

Dealing with this level of fraud is what all those cops should be doing rather than pulling over people for changing lanes too fast or too slow in a fishing expedition to see if someone in there has a quarter bag.
Banning alcohol production was counter productive. Banning recreational drug use was counter productive. Therefore banning cryptos will work?
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Old 14th June 2022, 09:47 AM   #2354
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Banning alcohol production was counter productive. Banning recreational drug use was counter productive. Therefore banning cryptos will work?
Good point - I would love it if we could work toward programs that give people more meaning in their lives and leave them less susceptible to addiction to substances or gambling.

ETA - I wouldn't "ban" cryptos either, but I'd regulate them with the SEC, not the CFTC like the crypto-friendly Gillebrand proposed bill does.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A 24 hour snapshot can prove anything but if you look at the trend over several months the you will see that I am correct.
Yes, I did say "right now" after all.

Bitcoin is slightly outperforming most of the other non-stable cryptos year-to-date (see far right #).

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Old 14th June 2022, 10:15 AM   #2355
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Banning alcohol production was counter productive. Banning recreational drug use was counter productive. Therefore banning cryptos will work?
Leaving out that "large scale financial shenanigans" does not equal "banning crypto..."

Yes, these spacious arguments are fun. I guess banning murder didn't work either so to heck with that. (insert inane emoji here)

There are roughly a million ways that financial regulation differs from addressing drug use with criminalization, and it's hard to take seriously a person that doesn't grasp that.
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Old 14th June 2022, 10:15 AM   #2356
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I wouldn't "ban" cryptos either, but I'd regulate them with the SEC, not the CFTC like the crypto-friendly Gillebrand proposed bill does.
That doesn't mean much to me. I need to see what sort of regulation you want to see.

FWIW people who use cryptos to hide income and evade taxes deserve no mercy. (Ditto for people who provide false warranties). That doesn't mean that cryptos need more regulation by the tax man than other assets.
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Old 14th June 2022, 01:00 PM   #2357
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Meanwhile Jim Cramer ridicules poor old Saylor. Under 21k MicroStrategy risks liquidation.

https://www.tradingview.com/markets/...rrencies/news/
Jim Cramer ridculing somebody over giving bad finiancial advice:
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black....
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Old 14th June 2022, 05:22 PM   #2358
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That doesn't mean much to me. I need to see what sort of regulation you want to see.
Regulating things like tokens and coins as securities, since they are securities. The bought-and-paid-for senators want to regulate coins as we regulate commodities like gold or corn, which is much less oversight, and would be exactly what the crypto industry wants.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...gest#xj4y7vzkg

Originally Posted by bloomberg
US regulators are investigating whether Binance Holdings Ltd. broke securities rules by selling digital tokens just as the crypto exchange was getting off the ground five years ago, according to people familiar with the matter.

The Securities and Exchange Commission’s review pries into the firm’s origins and those of its BNB token, which is now the world’s fifth-biggest. Investigators are examining if the 2017 initial coin offering amounted to the sale of a security that should have been registered with the agency, said the people who were granted anonymity to discuss the confidential probe.

Scrutiny of BNB’s beginnings may be a troubling development for Binance as it faces multiple investigations in Washington. The SEC has brought dozens of enforcement actions over ICOs, which involve issuing virtual coins to raise money. BNB has been a feature of Binance’s expansive crypto empire
Regarding taxes and money laundering, regulators could try to do something about things like tornado cash.

Last edited by carlitos; 14th June 2022 at 05:24 PM. Reason: lots
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Old 14th June 2022, 08:55 PM   #2359
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Regulating things like tokens and coins as securities, since they are securities. The bought-and-paid-for senators want to regulate coins as we regulate commodities like gold or corn, which is much less oversight, and would be exactly what the crypto industry wants.
If you mean that cryptos should be regarded as an interest in some property then I disagree - unless an ICO comes with a promise of exchangeability.

Most cryptos like bitcoin offer no interest in anything. That is why they come under so much (unwarranted) criticism.
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Old 14th June 2022, 10:41 PM   #2360
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you mean that cryptos should be regarded as an interest in some property then I disagree - unless an ICO comes with a promise of exchangeability.

Most cryptos like bitcoin offer no interest in anything. That is why they come under so much (unwarranted) criticism.
If I wanted secure crypto I would be in bitcoin.
The others all look tainted by human interference to me.
Look at etherium coding in a difficulty bomb for example.
What nonsense, I might buy bitcoin eventually at 8k.

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