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Tags putin , russia , Russia-Ukraine war , ukraine , Zelensky

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Old 2nd July 2022, 02:31 PM   #1361
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
How? Are there even means to do that? I think you cannot just pull the plug, or jump up and down on the railing so the boat capsize.
Smash the pipes that bring cooling water in to and out from the engines and generators. It would still take a long time to sink unless the cooling pumps were running, then it would be pumping thousands of gallons a minute in to the machinery spaces.
Most ship sinkings are caused by problems with through hull fittings and cooling pipes.

I think they are ********ting, If I was on a munitions ship in port that had been hit by missiles and was burning furiously, I would be down the gangway and heading for the horizon, not squatting in the engine room trying to smash sea pipes.
There are however a few incidences in WW2 of ships being deliberately scuttled to avoid explosions.

It's how medals are won.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 2nd July 2022 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 2nd July 2022, 02:53 PM   #1362
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The ship may have been flooding already from breaches opened in the attack or by subsequent working of the hull. Also, naval ships have had scuttling charges in place for just such emergencies, although I have to wonder how fast they could sink a vessel of any size.

But who are we to doubt the word of Mr. Putler's officially official spokesmen?
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Old 2nd July 2022, 03:00 PM   #1363
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Have the Russians actually confirmed the missile strike or just the sinking? I could just be another episode of "ship didn't participate in hostilities, therefore no money for potential casualties."
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Old 2nd July 2022, 03:00 PM   #1364
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The ship may have been flooding already from breaches opened in the attack or by subsequent working of the hull. Also, naval ships have had scuttling charges in place for just such emergencies, although I have to wonder how fast they could sink a vessel of any size.

But who are we to doubt the word of Mr. Putler's officially official spokesmen?
What is your evidence for these 'scuttling charges'?

I have never been on a ship with 'scuttling charges'

It was blown open by a missile, that is the only flooding that occured.
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Old 2nd July 2022, 03:24 PM   #1365
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence for these 'scuttling charges'?

I have never been on a ship with 'scuttling charges'

It was blown open by a missile, that is the only flooding that occured.
OK, capt., if scuttling charges are a thing of the past,* it's probably just as well. I'd be sorry to sail in any ship that had them, especially a russian navy vessel with russian navy maintenance.

ETA: I notice that the US Navy placed a 2000 lb (!) scuttling bomb aboard at least one carrier after difficulty scuttling the Hornet in 1942. Also, I found a 1974 patent for a rather peculiar-sounding scuttling explosive to be installed against the inside of a ship's hull, perhaps to assist controlled sinking.

*Scuttling charges were submarine equipment in WW2 -- and there I go, forgetting how dated most of my reading is. You be a nold salt, Capting, never me. I s'all belay me jawin' tackle the now.
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Last edited by sackett; 2nd July 2022 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Trying to keep up. How'm I doon?
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Old 2nd July 2022, 06:40 PM   #1366
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Well, probably to relatively little surprise at this point, looks like Ukrainian forces have mostly retreated from Lysychansk. Unfortunate, but having safe and defensible supply lines is important.

On the Kherson front, Ukraine still seems to be pushing Russia back bit by bit behind their general silence. Another town in the north likely liberated, likely a number more in between their stronger points, and Snihurivka may soon be fully liberated.
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Old 2nd July 2022, 07:36 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A land route that's only valuable as long Ukraine refrains from bombarding it. Over the next few years, Ukraine's artillery, counter-battery, air power, and air defense is only going to get better. Russia will likely end up in the embarrassing position of having a land corridor, but not being able to make any strategic movement through it except by Ukrainian grace. And not being able to push further into Ukrainian territory to force them to back off.
That depends on how successfully Putin uses food and fuel as a weapon. We might just see the EU trying to broker a peace deal along existing battle lines with eastern Ukraine becoming the occupied territories.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 05:05 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Klimax my man, you have an evil twin.
Who is my evil twin?
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Old 3rd July 2022, 05:38 AM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
How? Are there even means to do that? I think you cannot just pull the plug, or jump up and down on the railing so the boat capsize.
I think most ships have a way to be scuttled, if by no other means than simply, "disable all the flooding countermeasures, open all the valves, and actively try to flood the ship".
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Old 3rd July 2022, 05:39 AM   #1370
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
That depends on how successfully Putin uses food and fuel as a weapon. We might just see the EU trying to broker a peace deal along existing battle lines with eastern Ukraine becoming the occupied territories.
It's not clear to me how Putin would use food and fuel to defend his land access to Crimea against Ukrainian attacks.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 06:24 AM   #1371
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
That depends on how successfully Putin uses food and fuel as a weapon. We might just see the EU trying to broker a peace deal along existing battle lines with eastern Ukraine becoming the occupied territories.
Gifting Putin with illegally seized territory in Ukraine would be nuts. The only way to end this is to defeat Putin.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 06:31 AM   #1372
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think most ships have a way to be scuttled, if by no other means than simply, "disable all the flooding countermeasures, open all the valves, and actively try to flood the ship".
If I wanted to sink a ship quickly I would disconnect all the coolant loop exhaust pipes, that way the engines and generators would be pumping thousands of gallons a minute in to the ship and seawater would be flooding in through the disconnected through hull fittings.
I would also open all the fire main valves and turn on all the auxiliary fire pumps, again pumping thousands of gallons a minute in to all parts of the ship.
If it was a warship, flooding all the magazines would speed things up too.

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Old 3rd July 2022, 06:58 AM   #1373
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Gifting Putin with illegally seized territory in Ukraine would be nuts. The only way to end this is to defeat Putin.
My thoughts exactly!
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Old 3rd July 2022, 09:15 AM   #1374
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Message of the President of LPR Leonid Pasechnik on the occasion of the liberation of the Republic:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 3rd July 2022, 09:18 AM   #1375
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Now let's make war! Like men!

Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Who is my evil twin?
I mustn't say his name, or he'll get me in trouble with the Mods (PBUT, may their portfolios recover from market dips, and all their daughters marry liquor wholesalers) for gaslighting.

But I'll take your sanguine cheerleading for Ukraine over his monotonous sucking on Putler, any day and every day.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 10:29 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Who is my evil twin?
I'd tell you, but it'd probably be an anti-Klimax...



TAXI!!!
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Old 3rd July 2022, 10:41 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Gifting Putin with illegally seized territory in Ukraine would be nuts. The only way to end this is to defeat Putin.
End what? The Russian occupation of Eastern Ukraine won't end just because Putin is out of power (or out of this life entirely).

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have been deported into Russia. Obviously it's up to the Ukrainians what their utmost priorities are, but if I were them I'd be seriously considering a trade: They keep the territory they captured in 2014, and I get my people back.

It's not like Russia will be in any shape to try to manufacture the same "land for lives" type deal again any time soon. So such an offer wouldn't encourage them to try a repeat.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 10:45 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
My thoughts exactly!
That's an extreme binary perspective. There are plenty of other ways to end this, short of completely driving Russia out of all parts of Ukraine. Clawing back the territories Russia captured in 2014 is likely to be very difficult, regardless of how spent the Russian war machine is.

But it does further explain your enthusiasm for Russian "progress": Not only do you believe the Ukrainians aren't fighting back; you also believe that no fight short of total, perfect victory is worthwhile.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 10:51 AM   #1379
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Funny bit .. there is a village called New York near the front ..

https://deepstatemap.live/en#13/48.3198/37.8597
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Old 3rd July 2022, 11:15 AM   #1380
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Gifting Putin with illegally seized territory in Ukraine would be nuts. The only way to end this is to defeat Putin.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
End what? The Russian occupation of Eastern Ukraine won't end just because Putin is out of power (or out of this life entirely).

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have been deported into Russia. Obviously it's up to the Ukrainians what their utmost priorities are, but if I were them I'd be seriously considering a trade: They keep the territory they captured in 2014, and I get my people back.

It's not like Russia will be in any shape to try to manufacture the same "land for lives" type deal again any time soon. So such an offer wouldn't encourage them to try a repeat.
Why would any successor to Putin want to keep on with his war? It would be easy to find, or "find" examples of the former leader's misjudgement and crimes, which the successor is remedying.

And I don't believe Putin can hand over power to a reliable successor - because Putin would have too much influence unless neutralised for any of those to feel secure.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 11:16 AM   #1381
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Who is my evil twin?
Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
I'd tell you, but it'd probably be an anti-Klimax...



TAXI!!!
Ban this man.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 11:25 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
End what? The Russian occupation of Eastern Ukraine won't end just because Putin is out of power (or out of this life entirely).
By defeating Putin I mean defeating him militarily, chasing Russian troops out of Ukraine, with all territory returned to Ukraine. Then Ukraine can join the EU and NATO. Russians may continue to desire jackass strongmen as leaders, or they may see that there's a better future in joining with the rest of Europe.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 11:38 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
End what? The Russian occupation of Eastern Ukraine won't end just because Putin is out of power (or out of this life entirely).

Meanwhile hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have been deported into Russia. Obviously it's up to the Ukrainians what their utmost priorities are, but if I were them I'd be seriously considering a trade: They keep the territory they captured in 2014, and I get my people back.

It's not like Russia will be in any shape to try to manufacture the same "land for lives" type deal again any time soon. So such an offer wouldn't encourage them to try a repeat.
Of course it would encourage them. Next time they know they just have to take the hostages.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 11:47 AM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Of course it would encourage them. Next time they know they just have to take the hostages.
They won't be up to the task of making a "next time" for a long while to come.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 12:29 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's an extreme binary perspective. There are plenty of other ways to end this, short of completely driving Russia out of all parts of Ukraine. Clawing back the territories Russia captured in 2014 is likely to be very difficult, regardless of how spent the Russian war machine is.

But it does further explain your enthusiasm for Russian "progress": Not only do you believe the Ukrainians aren't fighting back; you also believe that no fight short of total, perfect victory is worthwhile.
Ceding territory will only encourage Russia to have a second go later IMO
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Old 3rd July 2022, 12:34 PM   #1386
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
By defeating Putin I mean defeating him militarily, chasing Russian troops out of Ukraine, with all territory returned to Ukraine. Then Ukraine can join the EU and NATO. Russians may continue to desire jackass strongmen as leaders, or they may see that there's a better future in joining with the rest of Europe.

There is no way to "defeat Putin militarily". "Western" military-industrial complex is just to weak, and first of all there is no support from the population. They smelled the rat. You really have to search for places (like this one) where people still swallow the propaganda. "Skeptical" people (LOL).

Today Lugansk was liberated, and someday soon Donetsk will be liberated and there is nothing "you" can do about it. "The Russians" have shown that they couldn't care less about the "opinion", i.e. the parroting of what the mighty Wurlitzer says, of the "western" public. Multipolar world is coming, "liberal" tears are coming, humanity will benefit.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 12:40 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
There is no way to "defeat Putin militarily". "Western" military-industrial complex is just to weak.
That is satire yes?
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Old 3rd July 2022, 12:41 PM   #1388
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That is satire yes?

No.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 12:51 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
No.
It's the usual nonsense from the wrong side of history.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 12:57 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
...and first of all there is no support from the population. They smelled the rat. You really have to search for places (like this one) where people still swallow the propaganda...
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:09 PM   #1391
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
No.
OK, so how did you come to the conclusion that the "Western" military-industrial complex is just too weak to defeat Putin militarily?
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:17 PM   #1392
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
OK, so how did you come to the conclusion that the "Western" military-industrial complex is just too weak to defeat Putin militarily?

You have just witnessed the liberation of the LPR from western-occupied Ukraine. You will soon witness the liberation of the DPR from western-occupied Ukraine. You have parroted nonsense from UK "think-tanks" for months, while non of it manifested. Reality will kick in, I hope for you.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:23 PM   #1393
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No, I *can't* help myself. Nor you either.

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
No.
What an anticlimactic answer.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:24 PM   #1394
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That is satire yes?
Aaand you took the bait again.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:26 PM   #1395
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Gifting Putin with illegally seized territory in Ukraine would be nuts. The only way to end this is to defeat Putin.
Ideally, defeating Putin is the way to go however that plan all depends on how long the EU is willing to tolerate an energy crisis and the Middle East/Africa is willing to tolerate extreme food insecurity while NATO slowly dribbles weapons into Ukraine.

Will Nordstream come back online after this month's maintenance shutdown? Germany certainly seems worried that it won't. Will Russia scale back oil production and lead to a spike in crude oil prices? What's going to happen to the Ukranian agriculture products currently being harvested along with the ones currently in storage. Will Ukraine plant next year's crop/ Will sanctions against Russia prevent them exporting their crops to their traditional markets?

It's really a question of how much pain the west is willing to tolerate while Ukraine develops the capability to oust the orcs.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:29 PM   #1396
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Ceding territory will only encourage Russia to have a second go later IMO
I doubt Russia is in any shape to have a second go at anything.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:32 PM   #1397
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I doubt Russia is in any shape to have a second go at anything.

First go is working.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:35 PM   #1398
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Old 3rd July 2022, 01:37 PM   #1399
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
OK, so how did you come to the conclusion that the "Western" military-industrial complex is just too weak to defeat Putin militarily?
Meanwhile, Russia's recent offensive towards Kharkiv might have run out of steam again after very limited effect. Looks like Ukraine just reclaimed Neskuchne up there.
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Old 3rd July 2022, 02:11 PM   #1400
eerok
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
It's really a question of how much pain the west is willing to tolerate while Ukraine develops the capability to oust the orcs.
It's no secret that a small pain now will become a much larger pain later if Putin gains from his invasion of Ukraine. The real question is, when will the West begin to adequately equip Ukraine? However, there's some indication that the West is no longer publicizing its shipments in such a detailed manner, because discretion is the smarter way to go.
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