The Russian Invasion of Ukraine Part 4 - Page 36

Dr.Sid · 3rd July 2022, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by eerok

It's no secret that a small pain now will become a much larger pain later if Putin gains from his invasion of Ukraine. The real question is, when will the West begin to adequately equip Ukraine? However, there's some indication that the West is no longer publicizing its shipments in such a detailed manner, because discretion is the smarter way to go.

West was never publicizing the shipments in detailed manner.

theprestige · 3rd July 2022, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

First go is working.

Yeah, in a Maxwell Smart, "I meant to do that!" kind of way.

Allen773 · 3rd July 2022, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

First go is working.

TheGoldcountry · 3rd July 2022, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Now the action movie makers have a new "bad guy" country to use as the antagonist.

Have you ever seen an 80s movie?

a_unique_person · 3rd July 2022, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Message of the President of LPR Leonid Pasechnik on the occasion of the liberation of the Republic:

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I AGREE

TF

W.

Craig4 · 3rd July 2022, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

First go is working.

About a dozen generals are explaining why that's not the case to their ancestors.

sackett · 3rd July 2022, 05:20 PM

Putler's blockade worries just about everybody. Breaking it by force would be easy for any western fleet, but would almost certainly start a new war, potentially nuclear, given Vlad's desperate situation. I've read an opinion that a diplomatic solution to the looming food crisis would be best -- and I can't see it happening until the Russians are convincingly beaten on the ground, in the inshore waters, and in the air. "Convincingly" means beaten back and beaten hollow, until Vladdie-boy is obled to ▶️ nice and pretend that he's averting a worldwide humanitarian crisis oh my goodness what a wonderfully humane leader he is let's give him a prize.

Unless, perhaps, the western powers can achieve a non-military but also non-diplomatic solution: an ENGINEERING solution that combines various means of transport to move Ukrainian grain out of the region and into the holds of world shipping. Can such a thing be done? Is innovation on that scale and in time possible?

Dunno if the world wonders, but I sure do.

Stout · 3rd July 2022, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by eerok

It's no secret that a small pain now will become a much larger pain later if Putin gains from his invasion of Ukraine. The real question is, when will the West begin to adequately equip Ukraine? However, there's some indication that the West is no longer publicizing its shipments in such a detailed manner, because discretion is the smarter way to go.

It would take a rather cynical view of these back-to-back media stories about how poorly equipped and ill trained the Russian invasion force is to believe that Russia could be a threat to the EU (in a non nuclear, conventional sense) for the remainder of Putin's natural life.

It's the very near future that's going to show us just how impactful this "small pain" is going to be and it appears to be a pain that the EU has been trying to avoid by feeding the Russian war machine while beaking off about their sanctions.

No doubt it's spies that'll let Russia know about incoming western weapons shipments, the wheres and the whens so publicizing them is probably not a bad move when held up against the propaganda gains they give. Last time I looked we, the west were celebrating the delivery of 8 HIMARS units out of the 300 that UAF asked for.

a_unique_person · 3rd July 2022, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

First go is working.

If you call destroying your objective working. When does the rebuilding start?

Allen773 · 3rd July 2022, 08:24 PM

The Russians have been greeted as liberators, just as promised.

Aridas · 3rd July 2022, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Unless, perhaps, the western powers can achieve a non-military but also non-diplomatic solution: an ENGINEERING solution that combines various means of transport to move Ukrainian grain out of the region and into the holds of world shipping. Can such a thing be done? Is innovation on that scale and in time possible?

Dunno if the world wonders, but I sure do.

For what it's worth, at last check, there's been notable investment in Romania's railways and ports lately. It'll take a bit of time to actually do the work, though. That's fairly certainly not the only relevant infrastructure investment, as well.

Originally Posted by Stout

Last time I looked we, the west were celebrating the delivery of 8 HIMARS units out of the 300 that UAF asked for.

More specifically, the 300 was apparently a request by an advisor to Zelensiy's chief of staff, along with about 500 tanks and about as much artillery as the whole US army + marines has. Ukraine's actual official requests have apparently been dramatically lower. Perhaps 60-100 HIMARS range, more likely, with 60 happening to have been the request of another advisor very shortly before the 300 request that's been publicized so much. Their actual tank requests have been more than satisfied last I heard, as well. Back to HIMARS, though. More HIMARS would be good, of course, but as has been poked at repeatedly, the ammo is the far, far greater logistical issue than the actual number of HIMARS are.

Aridas · 3rd July 2022, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by Allen773

The Russians have been greeted as liberators, just as promised.

By a very small minority, yes. By most, it doesn't look like it.

Ziggurat · 3rd July 2022, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

There is no way to "defeat Putin militarily". "Western" military-industrial complex is just to weak,

Bwahahahaha!

Russian fighter pilots are flying with consumer GPS receivers duct taped to their cockpits, and it’s the west that is weak? You have no conception of what military strength actually is.

The Great Zaganza · 3rd July 2022, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Allen773

The Russians have been greeted as liberators, just as promised.

you mean by the few who haven't been used as cannon fodder?

timhau · 3rd July 2022, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

you mean by the few who haven't been used as cannon fodder?

Oh, I'm sure they're amazingly happy to be forced to die for their freedom.

Childlike Empress · 4th July 2022, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

If you call destroying your objective working. When does the rebuilding start?

It has already started. Each oblast of the Russian Federation has taken on a partnership with a city in Donbass and coordinate the rebuild. Of course you won't hear that in the propaganda rags you consume.

The Don · 4th July 2022, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I doubt Russia is in any shape to have a second go at anything.

Give it a decade or so of supplying oil and gas to China and India and the "unaligned" world and the coffers will be full again.

The Don · 4th July 2022, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

If you call destroying your objective working. When does the rebuilding start?

Why should they rebuild ?

Whilst the original Russian objective may have been to quickly topple the Ukrainian government and install a puppet, their Plan B (or Plan C or whatever) appears to be to cause as much damage to Ukraine as possible and as a result stop - or at least significantly delay - Ukraine's development into a modern, western-facing democracy.

Leaving large parts of Ukraine a smoking ruin, regardless of whose hands they are in, helps to achieve that objective.

The Great Zaganza · 4th July 2022, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

It has already started. Each oblast of the Russian Federation has taken on a partnership with a city in Donbass and coordinate the rebuild. Of course you won't hear that in the propaganda rags you consume.

Yippee!
Another excellent opportunity for corruption and personal enrichment!
Long Live the Kleptocracy!

jimbob · 4th July 2022, 01:55 AM

https://samf.substack.com/p/can-ukraine-win

Discussion about whether Ukraine can win.

And what victory is... Which is more than just denying Russia victory

Captain_Swoop · 4th July 2022, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

Why should they rebuild ?

Whilst the original Russian objective may have been to quickly topple the Ukrainian government and install a puppet, their Plan B (or Plan C or whatever) appears to be to cause as much damage to Ukraine as possible and as a result stop - or at least significantly delay - Ukraine's development into a modern, western-facing democracy.

Leaving large parts of Ukraine a smoking ruin, regardless of whose hands they are in, helps to achieve that objective.

The Russians are leaving the bits they are claiming are now part of Russia or independent in smoking ruins.
If they think they can hold on to it why would they be doing that?

Childlike Empress · 4th July 2022, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The Russians are leaving the bits they are claiming are now part of Russia or independent in smoking ruins.
If they think they can hold on to it why would they be doing that?

They are doing the opposite of what you read in your dull propaganda rags. The "slowness" of their advance is because they want to avoid collateral damage like the Yankistanis caused with no second thought to Bagdad, Falluja, Mossul etc, their brute force modus of operandi.

jimbob · 4th July 2022, 02:48 AM

Meanwhile:

Another titbit: Something that's not sustainable or likely to get good performance

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-july-3

Quote:

The Kremlin likely seeks to expand Russian state control over private Russian companies that support elements of Russia’s military industrial base. The Ukrainian Military Intelligence Directorate (GUR) reported on July 3 that the Russian government’s inability to pay Russian firms supporting Russia’s war in Ukraine is degrading Russia’s ability to repair damaged vehicles. The GUR reported that the directors of Russian military vehicle repair centers are not accepting new Russian equipment for repair because the Russian military has not paid these centers for previous work.[7] Recently proposed Russian legislation suggests that Kremlin leadership shares GUR’s assessment. Russian legislators in the Russian State Duma submitted a bill on June 30 that would empower the Kremlin to introduce “special measures in the economic sphere” enabling the Russian government to force private Russian companies to provide supplies for Russian military operations.[8] The bill prohibits Russian businesses from refusing to fulfil Russian government procurement orders connected to Russian military operations.

ETA: and increasing Ukrainian partisan activity - remember, this is what a lot of experts thought this would be the biggest threat to Russian control and what would eventually force them out.

Quote:

Ukrainian partisans reportedly derailed a Russian armored train carrying ammunition near Melitopol on July 2.[33] Kremlin-sponsored outlet RIA Novosti acknowledged that the train derailed around Yakymivka, but claimed that the incident was an accident.[34] Ukrainian partisans previously targeted Russian armored trains and locomotives in Melitopol in late April and mid-May.[35]

The Don · 4th July 2022, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The Russians are leaving the bits they are claiming are now part of Russia or independent in smoking ruins.
If they think they can hold on to it why would they be doing that?

Because the Russian leadership don't give a single solitary **** about the state of their country, just their own personal wellbeing.

I'm sure they'd like to hold onto the territory they've invaded if they don't manage to, making it nigh on impossible for Ukraine to do anything with it is an acceptable second prize.

Captain_Swoop · 4th July 2022, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Meanwhile:

Another titbit: Something that's not sustainable or likely to get good performance

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-july-3

ETA: and increasing Ukrainian partisan activity - remember, this is what a lot of experts thought this would be the biggest threat to Russian control and what would eventually force them out.

Trains are easy to derail, just loosen a few track ties or rail end joiners, all you need is a spanner.

For best effect do it on an embankment or in a cutting where it's hard to get anything alongside to put the derailed cars back on the track.

jimbob · 4th July 2022, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trains are easy to derail, just loosen a few track ties or rail end joiners, all you need is a spanner.

For best effect do it on an embankment or in a cutting where it's hard to get anything alongside to put the derailed cars back on the track.

Yes, and hard to tell from accidentd given Russian maintenance.

This is showing Russian MOD video, so propaganda

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1...fMB_GGeTRL8vxw

Which tells me that they have been thinking attacks on trains has been a problem for some time.

I also question why they think that's a good thing to highlight that they feel the need to use armed trains with helicopter escorts. But hey.

ETA. From the link in the tweet

Quote:

Action of Volga special train created by Western MD railway troops professionals for engineering reconnaissance and track restoration in special military operation area

▫️The train is equipped with armoured surface, the platforms carry armament, equipment and firepower, as well as shelters for firing and repelling enemy's attacks.

@mod_russia_en

Craig4 · 4th July 2022, 03:26 AM

https://www.economist.com/europe/202...heir-own-lines

You can't read the whole article but there's a good summary before you hit the pay wall. The Ukrainians are engaging in partisan attacks against the occupiers. Maybe we should include some credit card guns, .25 cal pistols, silencers and other assassination weapons in our next shipment.

jimbob · 4th July 2022, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

A good article about German responses to the war.

Quote:

Timothy Snyder eviscerates Jürgen Habermas: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-18131718.html

Quoting "woodchopper" over on scrutable.science as he was the source.

And a good followup thread by Benjamin Tallis

Captain_Swoop · 4th July 2022, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Yes, and hard to tell from accidentd given Russian maintenance.

This is showing Russian MOD video, so propaganda

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1...fMB_GGeTRL8vxw

Which tells me that they have been thinking attacks on trains has been a problem for some time.

I also question why they think that's a good thing to highlight that they feel the need to use armed trains with helicopter escorts. But hey.

ETA. From the link in the tweet

The problems with armoured trains is the enemy know exactly where they are going and the route they have to take, They derail just as easily as any other train and then they are sitting docks for an attack.

Captain_Swoop · 4th July 2022, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

https://www.economist.com/europe/202...heir-own-lines

You can't read the whole article but there's a good summary before you hit the pay wall. The Ukrainians are engaging in partisan attacks against the occupiers. Maybe we should include some credit card guns, .25 cal pistols, silencers and other assassination weapons in our next shipment.

The British in WW2 had the 'Welrod' and the 'Sleeve Gun'
Maybe they should be put back in to production

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Jack by the hedge · 4th July 2022, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

You have just witnessed the liberation of the LPR from western-occupied Ukraine...

Funny how closely liberation resembles occupation by foreign invaders. How many Western armies are occupying the rest of Ukraine anyway?

I suppose the Russians imagine it would have looked less terrible if their original plan to topple the Kyiv government and install a puppet regime hadn't been an utter failure and total humiliation. If it had worked then the puppets could have invited the Russians in (when they were already there) just like Afghanistan all over again.

Now I find myself wondering who in the Kremlin first said "What we really need right now is another Afghanistan".

Craig4 · 4th July 2022, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The British in WW2 had the 'Welrod' and the 'Sleeve Gun'
Maybe they should be put back in to production

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Great idea. Any occupier you shoot in the back of the head is one you don't have to kill at the FLOT and can't kill you.

Craig4 · 4th July 2022, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Funny how closely liberation resembles occupation by foreign invaders. How many Western armies are occupying the rest of Ukraine anyway?

I suppose the Russians imagine it would have looked less terrible if their original plan to topple the Kyiv government and install a puppet regime hadn't been an utter failure and total humiliation. If it had worked then the puppets could have invited the Russians in (when they were already there) just like Afghanistan all over again.

Now I find myself wondering who in the Kremlin first said "What we really need right now is another Afghanistan".

It seems as though someone in the Kremlin asked, "How could we have another Afghanistan but make it worse?".

eerok · 4th July 2022, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

First go is working.

We're only awaiting the "gesture of goodwill" when Russia flees Ukraine entirely.

jimbob · 4th July 2022, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Great idea. Any occupier you shoot in the back of the head is one you don't have to kill at the FLOT and can't kill you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Oversteegen

Craig4 · 4th July 2022, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Oversteegen

How is it I've never heard of this person? I consider myself reasonably well read on the history of WWII and I've never come across her. When it's safe, the world should ensure that Ukraine's heroes like her aren't forgotten. I suspect there are a lot of them. I wonder how many Russian "desertions" are really horny occupiers who thought they were going to get laid and instead got their throats slit.

jimbob · 4th July 2022, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The problems with armoured trains is the enemy know exactly where they are going and the route they have to take, They derail just as easily as any other train and then they are sitting docks for an attack.

Naval background showing through.

But indeed. I wonder if it was more for internal morale purposes. As long as you don't think about their obvious weaknesses, they look quite impressive.

dasmiller · 4th July 2022, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

They are doing the opposite of what you read in your dull propaganda rags. The "slowness" of their advance is because they want to avoid collateral damage like the Yankistanis caused with no second thought to Bagdad, Falluja, Mossul etc, their brute force modus of operandi.

Truly, no one does scrupulous, meticulous ~~warfare~~ special operation like the Russians.

sackett · 4th July 2022, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

The British in WW2 had the 'Welrod' and the 'Sleeve Gun'
Maybe they should be put back in to production

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Those were for use against an efficient enemy. Ukrainian partisans can buy all the small arms they want from any Russian quartermaster. Or from ordinary Ivan Gruntski, come to that.

eerok · 4th July 2022, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by eerok

Ukraine will cede the pocket around Severodonetsk and draw a defensive line from Bakhmut to Siversk that Russia will not cross, largely because they're depleted but also they can't stretch their supply lines that far. This will protect the tactically valuable Slovyansk and Kramatorsk, and allow Ukraine protection to bomb deep into Russian-held territory.

Russia wants to call Luhansk a victory and stop for now anyway. This appears to be the end of a phase in Donbas.

This appears to be accurate so far, according to today's analysis from ISW.

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-july-4

I hope the next phase consists of Ukraine bombing the crap out of Russian positions from a safe distance.

3rd July 2022, 02:37 PM	#1402
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 60,325	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress First go is working. Yeah, in a Maxwell Smart, "I meant to do that!" kind of way.
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

3rd July 2022, 03:16 PM	#1404
TheGoldcountry Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 6,958	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Now the action movie makers have a new "bad guy" country to use as the antagonist. Have you ever seen an 80s movie?
	__________________ I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'm still pretty sure that you're wrong. -Akhenaten I sometimes think the Bible was inspired by Satan to make God look bad. And then it backfired on Him when He underestimated the stupidity of religious ideologues. -MontagK505

3rd July 2022, 04:08 PM	#1406
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress First go is working. About a dozen generals are explaining why that's not the case to their ancestors.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

3rd July 2022, 05:20 PM	#1407
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 7,642	Putler's blockade worries just about everybody. Breaking it by force would be easy for any western fleet, but would almost certainly start a new war, potentially nuclear, given Vlad's desperate situation. I've read an opinion that a diplomatic solution to the looming food crisis would be best -- and I can't see it happening until the Russians are convincingly beaten on the ground, in the inshore waters, and in the air. "Convincingly" means beaten back and beaten hollow, until Vladdie-boy is obled to ▶️ nice and pretend that he's averting a worldwide humanitarian crisis oh my goodness what a wonderfully humane leader he is let's give him a prize. Unless, perhaps, the western powers can achieve a non-military but also non-diplomatic solution: an ENGINEERING solution that combines various means of transport to move Ukrainian grain out of the region and into the holds of world shipping. Can such a thing be done? Is innovation on that scale and in time possible? Dunno if the world wonders, but I sure do.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

3rd July 2022, 05:21 PM	#1408
Stout Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,915	Originally Posted by eerok It's no secret that a small pain now will become a much larger pain later if Putin gains from his invasion of Ukraine. The real question is, when will the West begin to adequately equip Ukraine? However, there's some indication that the West is no longer publicizing its shipments in such a detailed manner, because discretion is the smarter way to go. It would take a rather cynical view of these back-to-back media stories about how poorly equipped and ill trained the Russian invasion force is to believe that Russia could be a threat to the EU (in a non nuclear, conventional sense) for the remainder of Putin's natural life. It's the very near future that's going to show us just how impactful this "small pain" is going to be and it appears to be a pain that the EU has been trying to avoid by feeding the Russian war machine while beaking off about their sanctions. No doubt it's spies that'll let Russia know about incoming western weapons shipments, the wheres and the whens so publicizing them is probably not a bad move when held up against the propaganda gains they give. Last time I looked we, the west were celebrating the delivery of 8 HIMARS units out of the 300 that UAF asked for.
Stout Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,915

3rd July 2022, 02:20 PM	#1401
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,827	Originally Posted by eerok It's no secret that a small pain now will become a much larger pain later if Putin gains from his invasion of Ukraine. The real question is, when will the West begin to adequately equip Ukraine? However, there's some indication that the West is no longer publicizing its shipments in such a detailed manner, because discretion is the smarter way to go. West was never publicizing the shipments in detailed manner.

3rd July 2022, 02:42 PM	#1403
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,594	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress First go is working.

3rd July 2022, 05:27 PM	#1409
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 44,460	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress First go is working. If you call destroying your objective working. When does the rebuilding start?
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

3rd July 2022, 08:24 PM	#1410
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,594	The Russians have been greeted as liberators, just as promised.

3rd July 2022, 09:06 PM	#1411
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by sackett Unless, perhaps, the western powers can achieve a non-military but also non-diplomatic solution: an ENGINEERING solution that combines various means of transport to move Ukrainian grain out of the region and into the holds of world shipping. Can such a thing be done? Is innovation on that scale and in time possible? Dunno if the world wonders, but I sure do. For what it's worth, at last check, there's been notable investment in Romania's railways and ports lately. It'll take a bit of time to actually do the work, though. That's fairly certainly not the only relevant infrastructure investment, as well. Originally Posted by Stout Last time I looked we, the west were celebrating the delivery of 8 HIMARS units out of the 300 that UAF asked for. More specifically, the 300 was apparently a request by an advisor to Zelensiy's chief of staff, along with about 500 tanks and about as much artillery as the whole US army + marines has. Ukraine's actual official requests have apparently been dramatically lower. Perhaps 60-100 HIMARS range, more likely, with 60 happening to have been the request of another advisor very shortly before the 300 request that's been publicized so much. Their actual tank requests have been more than satisfied last I heard, as well. Back to HIMARS, though. More HIMARS would be good, of course, but as has been poked at repeatedly, the ammo is the far, far greater logistical issue than the actual number of HIMARS are.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 3rd July 2022 at 09:13 PM.

3rd July 2022, 09:16 PM	#1412
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by Allen773 The Russians have been greeted as liberators, just as promised. By a very small minority, yes. By most, it doesn't look like it.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

3rd July 2022, 09:20 PM	#1413
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,989	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress There is no way to "defeat Putin militarily". "Western" military-industrial complex is just to weak, Bwahahahaha! Russian fighter pilots are flying with consumer GPS receivers duct taped to their cockpits, and it’s the west that is weak? You have no conception of what military strength actually is.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd July 2022, 10:45 PM	#1414
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,370	Originally Posted by Allen773 The Russians have been greeted as liberators, just as promised. you mean by the few who haven't been used as cannon fodder?
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

3rd July 2022, 11:26 PM	#1415
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,969	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza you mean by the few who haven't been used as cannon fodder? Oh, I'm sure they're amazingly happy to be forced to die for their freedom.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

4th July 2022, 12:01 AM	#1416
Childlike Empress Suspended Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 20,207	Originally Posted by a_unique_person If you call destroying your objective working. When does the rebuilding start? It has already started. Each oblast of the Russian Federation has taken on a partnership with a city in Donbass and coordinate the rebuild. Of course you won't hear that in the propaganda rags you consume.

4th July 2022, 12:21 AM	#1417
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,705	Originally Posted by theprestige I doubt Russia is in any shape to have a second go at anything. Give it a decade or so of supplying oil and gas to China and India and the "unaligned" world and the coffers will be full again.

4th July 2022, 12:26 AM	#1418
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,705	Originally Posted by a_unique_person If you call destroying your objective working. When does the rebuilding start? Why should they rebuild ? Whilst the original Russian objective may have been to quickly topple the Ukrainian government and install a puppet, their Plan B (or Plan C or whatever) appears to be to cause as much damage to Ukraine as possible and as a result stop - or at least significantly delay - Ukraine's development into a modern, western-facing democracy. Leaving large parts of Ukraine a smoking ruin, regardless of whose hands they are in, helps to achieve that objective.

4th July 2022, 12:59 AM	#1419
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 18,370	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress It has already started. Each oblast of the Russian Federation has taken on a partnership with a city in Donbass and coordinate the rebuild. Of course you won't hear that in the propaganda rags you consume. Yippee! Another excellent opportunity for corruption and personal enrichment! Long Live the Kleptocracy!
	__________________ "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." - Emo Philips

4th July 2022, 01:55 AM	#1420
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 26,772	https://samf.substack.com/p/can-ukraine-win Discussion about whether Ukraine can win. And what victory is... Which is more than just denying Russia victory
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4th July 2022, 02:06 AM	#1421
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by The Don Why should they rebuild ? Whilst the original Russian objective may have been to quickly topple the Ukrainian government and install a puppet, their Plan B (or Plan C or whatever) appears to be to cause as much damage to Ukraine as possible and as a result stop - or at least significantly delay - Ukraine's development into a modern, western-facing democracy. Leaving large parts of Ukraine a smoking ruin, regardless of whose hands they are in, helps to achieve that objective. The Russians are leaving the bits they are claiming are now part of Russia or independent in smoking ruins. If they think they can hold on to it why would they be doing that?

4th July 2022, 02:19 AM	#1422
Childlike Empress Suspended Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 20,207	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop The Russians are leaving the bits they are claiming are now part of Russia or independent in smoking ruins. If they think they can hold on to it why would they be doing that? They are doing the opposite of what you read in your dull propaganda rags. The "slowness" of their advance is because they want to avoid collateral damage like the Yankistanis caused with no second thought to Bagdad, Falluja, Mossul etc, their brute force modus of operandi.

4th July 2022, 02:48 AM	#1423
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 26,772	Meanwhile: Another titbit: Something that's not sustainable or likely to get good performance https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-july-3 Quote: The Kremlin likely seeks to expand Russian state control over private Russian companies that support elements of Russia’s military industrial base. The Ukrainian Military Intelligence Directorate (GUR) reported on July 3 that the Russian government’s inability to pay Russian firms supporting Russia’s war in Ukraine is degrading Russia’s ability to repair damaged vehicles. The GUR reported that the directors of Russian military vehicle repair centers are not accepting new Russian equipment for repair because the Russian military has not paid these centers for previous work.[7] Recently proposed Russian legislation suggests that Kremlin leadership shares GUR’s assessment. Russian legislators in the Russian State Duma submitted a bill on June 30 that would empower the Kremlin to introduce “special measures in the economic sphere” enabling the Russian government to force private Russian companies to provide supplies for Russian military operations.[8] The bill prohibits Russian businesses from refusing to fulfil Russian government procurement orders connected to Russian military operations. ETA: and increasing Ukrainian partisan activity - remember, this is what a lot of experts thought this would be the biggest threat to Russian control and what would eventually force them out. Quote: Ukrainian partisans reportedly derailed a Russian armored train carrying ammunition near Melitopol on July 2.[33] Kremlin-sponsored outlet RIA Novosti acknowledged that the train derailed around Yakymivka, but claimed that the incident was an accident.[34] Ukrainian partisans previously targeted Russian armored trains and locomotives in Melitopol in late April and mid-May.[35]
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK Last edited by jimbob; 4th July 2022 at 02:52 AM.

4th July 2022, 03:03 AM	#1424
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 34,705	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop The Russians are leaving the bits they are claiming are now part of Russia or independent in smoking ruins. If they think they can hold on to it why would they be doing that? Because the Russian leadership don't give a single solitary **** about the state of their country, just their own personal wellbeing. I'm sure they'd like to hold onto the territory they've invaded if they don't manage to, making it nigh on impossible for Ukraine to do anything with it is an acceptable second prize.

4th July 2022, 03:08 AM	#1425
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by jimbob Meanwhile: Another titbit: Something that's not sustainable or likely to get good performance https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-july-3 ETA: and increasing Ukrainian partisan activity - remember, this is what a lot of experts thought this would be the biggest threat to Russian control and what would eventually force them out. Trains are easy to derail, just loosen a few track ties or rail end joiners, all you need is a spanner. For best effect do it on an embankment or in a cutting where it's hard to get anything alongside to put the derailed cars back on the track.

4th July 2022, 03:18 AM	#1426
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 26,772	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trains are easy to derail, just loosen a few track ties or rail end joiners, all you need is a spanner. For best effect do it on an embankment or in a cutting where it's hard to get anything alongside to put the derailed cars back on the track. Yes, and hard to tell from accidentd given Russian maintenance. This is showing Russian MOD video, so propaganda https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1...fMB_GGeTRL8vxw Which tells me that they have been thinking attacks on trains has been a problem for some time. I also question why they think that's a good thing to highlight that they feel the need to use armed trains with helicopter escorts. But hey. ETA. From the link in the tweet Quote: Action of Volga special train created by Western MD railway troops professionals for engineering reconnaissance and track restoration in special military operation area ▫️The train is equipped with armoured surface, the platforms carry armament, equipment and firepower, as well as shelters for firing and repelling enemy's attacks. @mod_russia_en
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK Last edited by jimbob; 4th July 2022 at 03:20 AM.

4th July 2022, 03:26 AM	#1427
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	https://www.economist.com/europe/202...heir-own-lines You can't read the whole article but there's a good summary before you hit the pay wall. The Ukrainians are engaging in partisan attacks against the occupiers. Maybe we should include some credit card guns, .25 cal pistols, silencers and other assassination weapons in our next shipment.
	__________________ Fight like a Ukrainian.

4th July 2022, 03:30 AM	#1428
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 26,772	Originally Posted by jimbob A good article about German responses to the war. Quote: Timothy Snyder eviscerates Jürgen Habermas: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-18131718.html Quoting "woodchopper" over on scrutable.science as he was the source. And a good followup thread by Benjamin Tallis
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

4th July 2022, 03:39 AM	#1429
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by jimbob Yes, and hard to tell from accidentd given Russian maintenance. This is showing Russian MOD video, so propaganda https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1...fMB_GGeTRL8vxw Which tells me that they have been thinking attacks on trains has been a problem for some time. I also question why they think that's a good thing to highlight that they feel the need to use armed trains with helicopter escorts. But hey. ETA. From the link in the tweet The problems with armoured trains is the enemy know exactly where they are going and the route they have to take, They derail just as easily as any other train and then they are sitting docks for an attack.

4th July 2022, 03:44 AM	#1431
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 13,611	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress You have just witnessed the liberation of the LPR from western-occupied Ukraine... Funny how closely liberation resembles occupation by foreign invaders. How many Western armies are occupying the rest of Ukraine anyway? I suppose the Russians imagine it would have looked less terrible if their original plan to topple the Kyiv government and install a puppet regime hadn't been an utter failure and total humiliation. If it had worked then the puppets could have invited the Russians in (when they were already there) just like Afghanistan all over again. Now I find myself wondering who in the Kremlin first said "What we really need right now is another Afghanistan".

4th July 2022, 04:51 AM	#1433
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Funny how closely liberation resembles occupation by foreign invaders. How many Western armies are occupying the rest of Ukraine anyway? I suppose the Russians imagine it would have looked less terrible if their original plan to topple the Kyiv government and install a puppet regime hadn't been an utter failure and total humiliation. If it had worked then the puppets could have invited the Russians in (when they were already there) just like Afghanistan all over again. Now I find myself wondering who in the Kremlin first said "What we really need right now is another Afghanistan". It seems as though someone in the Kremlin asked, "How could we have another Afghanistan but make it worse?".
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4th July 2022, 05:00 AM	#1434
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,141	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress First go is working. We're only awaiting the "gesture of goodwill" when Russia flees Ukraine entirely.
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4th July 2022, 05:01 AM	#1435
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 26,772	Originally Posted by Craig4 Great idea. Any occupier you shoot in the back of the head is one you don't have to kill at the FLOT and can't kill you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Oversteegen
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

4th July 2022, 05:12 AM	#1436
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,719	Originally Posted by jimbob https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Oversteegen How is it I've never heard of this person? I consider myself reasonably well read on the history of WWII and I've never come across her. When it's safe, the world should ensure that Ukraine's heroes like her aren't forgotten. I suspect there are a lot of them. I wonder how many Russian "desertions" are really horny occupiers who thought they were going to get laid and instead got their throats slit.
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4th July 2022, 06:23 AM	#1437
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 26,772	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop The problems with armoured trains is the enemy know exactly where they are going and the route they have to take, They derail just as easily as any other train and then they are sitting docks for an attack. Naval background showing through. But indeed. I wonder if it was more for internal morale purposes. As long as you don't think about their obvious weaknesses, they look quite impressive.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

4th July 2022, 07:37 AM	#1438
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 6,544	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress They are doing the opposite of what you read in your dull propaganda rags. The "slowness" of their advance is because they want to avoid collateral damage like the Yankistanis caused with no second thought to Bagdad, Falluja, Mossul etc, their brute force modus of operandi. Truly, no one does scrupulous, meticulous ~~warfare~~ special operation like the Russians.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt