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Old 19th June 2022, 10:20 AM   #441
Warp12
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The AOC is 14 in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy and Portugal, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador and Paraguay, and 13 in the Philippines. In The Vatican, the AOC is for a girl is 14 so long as she is married - I don't see you using those countries to justify your position.

I am not using those countries; I am using the countries of some of those commenting in this thread...including the U.S....so I can illustrate the ridiculous nature of some of this outrage over the idea of consensual sex with a 16 y/o.

Probably many Germans and Italians would fall over laughing at this; I wouldn't blame them.
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Old 19th June 2022, 10:20 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
If it were that "shocking", it probably would not be legal in 31 states and plenty of other regions...such as the UK, New Zealand, and most of Australia...to name a few.

"Sexual deviant", lol. I guess I should be scolding everyone for their "Puritan" views of sexuality?
31 states is over half the US States, but doesn't include the 4 most populated (Cali, Texas, New York, and Fla, all 17-18. Its not so widely accepted as it seems at first glance.
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Old 19th June 2022, 10:38 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I am not using those countries; I am using the countries of some of those commenting in this thread...including the U.S....so I can illustrate the ridiculous nature of some of this outrage over the idea of consensual sex with a 16 y/o.

Probably many Germans and Italians would fall over laughing at this; I wouldn't blame them.
You are describing adults 30 years or older having consensual sex with a 16 year-old as "no big deal", and any outrage about it as "ridiculous".

Is consensual sex with a 16 year-old something you have engaged in as a 30 year-old or older adult?
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Old 19th June 2022, 10:45 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I am not using those countries; I am using the countries of some of those commenting in this thread...including the U.S....so I can illustrate the ridiculous nature of some of this outrage over the idea of consensual sex with a 16 y/o.

Probably many Germans and Italians would fall over laughing at this; I wouldn't blame them.
Do you give no credence to the notion that the relative ages of the participants impacts the appropriateness of the encounter?

Consensual sex between a senior on her 18th birthday and a 16 year old junior the day before his 17th birthday is one level of ‘creepy’ that I can manage not to get too worked up about, even if it were legally rape. Consensual sex between a 14 year old girl (even where the AOC is 14) and a 30-anything man is creepy beyond acceptance even if it is not legally rape.
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Old 19th June 2022, 10:47 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You are describing adults 30 years or older having consensual sex with a 16 year-old as "no big deal", and any outrage about it as "ridiculous".

Is consensual sex with a 16 year-old something you have engaged in as a 30 year-old or older adult?

It does not matter whether I have, or how many times I might have...despite your fascination with the topic. You keep asking me over and over as though my personal sexual activities are of great significance.

Quite frankly, my sex life is none of your business. Perhaps you can stop asking now. I'm not going to be giving you the details you seem to crave.
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Old 19th June 2022, 10:52 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Do you give no credence to the notion that the relative ages of the participants impacts the appropriateness of the encounter?

I give credence to the notion that everyone has their own opinion of certain situations. A 30 y/o and a 16 y/o does not personally creep me out, whether it would be my own preference or not.
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Old 19th June 2022, 10:56 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
It does not matter whether I have, or how many times I might have...despite your fascination with the topic. You keep asking me over and over as though my personal sexual activities are of great significance.

Quite frankly, my sex life is none of your business. Perhaps you can stop asking now. I'm not going to be giving you the details you seem to crave.
That's a fair enough response.

However, to demonstrate that I'm not asking you anything I wouldn't be comfortable answering myself: As an adult man, I would never and have never had any form of sex with a high school age girl (or boy for that matter). I lost interest in that age group after I left high school.

I certainly understand your reticence about revealing the details of your sex life, but a denial certainly wouldn't reveal any details, would it?

So I guess my question has been answered, after all. Thanks.
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Old 19th June 2022, 10:58 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I give credence to the notion that everyone has their own opinion of certain situations. A 30 y/o and a 16 y/o does not personally creep me out, whether it would be my own preference or not.
How about a 29 year-old and a 15 year-old? 28 year-old and a 14 year-old?

Do you have a line? If so, where is it?
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Old 19th June 2022, 11:19 AM   #449
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Jeez this conversation has gone in a weird direction.

What we know:
  1. Barnes and Abelseth had sex when he was thirty and she was sixteen.
  2. This is illegal in the state in which it occuerred (Louisisana).
  3. It is unclear if Barnes knew she was underage,
  4. There are factors that suggest he might not have knwn. Primarily that she was drinking in a bar.
  5. There are factors that suggest it's likely he did know or have reason to suspect she was underage. Primarily that she was there with her underage friend to visit/see that friend's brother whioth whom Barnes was friends.
  6. We don't know if the sex that night was coerced, pressured, or otherwise forced or if it was consensual.
  7. Abelseth says it was not consensual. (I have not seen an allegation of physical force or resistance, but physical force and resistance are not necessary for non-consensual sex to be rape.)
  8. Abelseth did not make a report at the time. (I don't consider this unusual or important, but it makes proving a forced rape difficult.)
  9. Abelseth reported the rape seven years later.
  10. The birth of the child and paternity test provide hard evidence of the statutory portion of the allegation. (Were it not for this evidence, the statutory portion would be difficult to prove as well.)

My guess is that Barnes will be prosecuted and convicted of statutory rape. Since knowledge of age is not allowed as a defense, that argument will not go before a jury. (Actually, I think there will be a plea deal.) But it would still be interesting to hear what witnesses say on this matter. (Abelseth has noted that the police did not contact any witnesses. That leads me to believe that she gave them names of people who could confirm portions of her story.) They may know what he knew about her and her friends. This could affect sentencing if such information is allowed at that stage.

As for the hospital at the time of birth:

My understanding is that the information they had was that a 17 year old girl gave birth. Yes, they knew that sex had occurred below the age of consent. But I'm assuming that the name of the boyfriend was given. They did not know and had no reason to suspect that Barnes (or any other adult) was involved. They may have reported this information if required, but the investigator is not going to poke too deeply into a case without reason to suspect an older man was involved.

It's the police that dropped the ball when the rape was reported seven years later who dropped the ball, not the hospital.

Technically, the term "pedophilia" refers to an attraction towards prepubescent children. This case does not fit that definition, but in common usage the term is applied to attraction to any underage child. The term that would apply here is ephebophilia. But again, only applies if she appeared to be her age.

Different cultures and areas have different ages of consent. (I've heard California mentioned here. In California the age of consent is 18.) That's because it's a murky line as to when an adolescent is mature enough to make this kind of decision. I think it's largely more of a cultural thing than any kind of biologically determined development stage. Kids gain responsibility and independence at different rates in different cultures, areas and families. In other words, maturity is affected by the environment of upbringing. Which is why a line determined to be appropriate in one place may not be the appropriate line in another.

That said, the fact that different states in a close by region set different lines is hard to explain. These are judgment calls, not empirically derived lines. And some kids in California are probably mature enough that they should be able to consent at sixteen and some kids in West Virginia (AOC 16) are like not mature enough to consent until they are 18. Individuals are different, but it's hard to make a law that takes that into account.

Regardless, the point of AOC laws is not really to stop kids from having sex. It's to keep them from being taken advantage of or manipulated by older men. Age can convey authority over the other person in a relationship.
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Old 19th June 2022, 11:20 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
However, to demonstrate that I'm not asking you anything I wouldn't be comfortable answering myself: As an adult man, I would never and have never had any form of sex with a high school age girl (or boy for that matter). I lost interest in that age group after I left high school.

Be that as it may, I don't find the above to be of any interest or significance in this discussion.
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Old 19th June 2022, 11:41 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Be that as it may, I don't find the above to be of any interest or significance in this discussion.
I completely understand, but disagree with you about its relevance to the topic.

Regardless, your lack of denial has satisfied my curiosity on the issue, thanks.

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Old 19th June 2022, 11:57 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But she didn't she told them it was her boyfriend so there was no reason for them to have considered it was rape.
How do we know what she told them ("them" being Louisiana Department of Child & Family Services)?

The Daily Mail story says "she never told anyone who the father was or that she had been raped".

The only quote I've seen from Abelseth is that her family believed that her then-boyfriend was the father.

"Everyone assumed he was," she said.

If you've seen something that indicates what, if anything, the DCFS asked her about the father and what she replied, please point me in that direction.
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:04 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I am not using those countries; I am using the countries of some of those commenting in this thread...including the U.S....so I can illustrate the ridiculous nature of some of this outrage over the idea of consensual sex with a 16 y/o.
Again, irrelevant. My opinion on this topic of thread is not tied to the laws in my country, and nor should it be. What if disagree with the AOC here and think it should be 18 (which I do)?

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Probably many Germans and Italians would fall over laughing at this; I wouldn't blame them.
You think Germans and Italians would be as flippant about rape as you appear to be?
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:05 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How about a 29 year-old and a 15 year-old? 28 year-old and a 14 year-old?

Do you have a line? If so, where is it?
That's the real bitch about The Line. Everyone reaches actual maturity at different times. The AoC is more of a guideline where we feel comfortable saying "ok now you've passed creepy and charged brazenly into criminal".
A 30yo is creepy to be sniffing on late teens, but a downright predator to be hounding mid-teens.
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:20 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's the real bitch about The Line. Everyone reaches actual maturity at different times. The AoC is more of a guideline where we feel comfortable saying "ok now you've passed creepy and charged brazenly into criminal".
Yeah, I agree that there's an element of arbitrariness to it. My personal belief is that, legally speaking, 18 should be the age of consent. Morally, I think once you get into your 20s, you should stop seeking out children to be your sex partners.

Quote:
A 30yo is creepy to be sniffing on late teens, but a downright predator to be hounding mid-teens.
Yes, absolutely agree.
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:23 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Again, irrelevant. My opinion on this topic of thread is not tied to the laws in my country, and nor should it be. What if disagree with the AOC here and think it should be 18 (which I do)?



You think Germans and Italians would be as flippant about rape as you appear to be?
I think a lot of them would be baffled and bemused by the apparent prudery or puritanism of a lot US age-of-maturity laws. We already know that UKians, as a society, don't see anything inherently wrong with a grown ass man knowingly soliciting a sixteen year old for sex. So all of this extreme outrage and vicious personal attacks, over the age gap and the arbitrary age of consent seems disingenuous to me.
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:27 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So, I will give you this chance to state once and for all where you stand... and this is a yes or no question - answer with no elaboration.

...

Do you think that a 30 year old should be legally allowed to have sex with a 16 year old?

First, I don't need a "chance" to state anything.

Second, you don't get to dictate the terms of anyone's response.

Third, I have already made my position on this question very clear, and very recently. Perhaps go back and read through the recent responses.
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:33 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think johnny karate he's just wondering whether you have some kind of personal stake in your justification of the statutory rape of a 16 year old girl by a 30 year old man. After all, the tenor of your posts with all the excuses you are coming up with for Rapeguy seem to strongly indicate that is what you are in fact doing (even if you can't recognise it yourself)

So, I will give you this chance to state once and for all where you stand... and this is a yes or no question - answer with no elaboration.

No excuses about how old the younger one might look
No excuses their lying about their ages
No excuses that they were drinking in a bar so must be old eniough
No excuses about fake IDs
No excuses about consensuality

Do you think that a 30 year old should be legally allowed to have sex with a 16 year old?
I'll give it a whirl: yes.

The answer is of course meaningless without elaboration though, as any 16 yo could tell you. It comes down to a personal judgement. I would rather it be illegal for an over 21 to have sex with an under 18, full stop. But that comes from my sense of what is proper. If the citizens of a given jurisdiction think that a 16yo can make that decision for him or herself, I don't see the reason in assigning a legal upper age limit on their choice of partner. If they can consent, they can consent to whom they wish, if and only if it is deemed acceptable in the culture or relevant jurisdiction.
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:39 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think johnny karate he's just wondering whether you have some kind of personal stake in your justification of the statutory rape of a 16 year old girl by a 30 year old man. After all, the tenor of your posts with all the excuses you are coming up with for Rapeguy seem to strongly indicate that is what you are in fact doing (even if you can't recognise it yourself)

So, I will give you this chance to state once and for all where you stand... and this is a yes or no question - answer with no elaboration.

No excuses about how old the younger one might look
No excuses their lying about their ages
No excuses that they were drinking in a bar so must be old eniough
No excuses about fake IDs
No excuses about consensuality

Do you think that a 30 year old should be legally allowed to have sex with a 16 year old?
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'll give it a whirl: yes.

The answer is of course meaningless without elaboration though, as any 16 yo could tell you. It comes down to a personal judgement. I would rather it be illegal for an over 21 to have sex with an under 18, full stop. But that comes from my sense of what is proper. If the citizens of a given jurisdiction think that a 16yo can make that decision for him or herself, I don't see the reason in assigning a legal upper age limit on their choice of partner. If they can consent, they can consent to whom they wish, if and only if it is deemed acceptable in the culture or relevant jurisdiction.
Counterpoint: No.

Reasoning: The UK says yes. Therefore, my epic, irrational hatred and bigotry towards all things UKian demands that I reject their perverse embrace of their obscene urge to pedophilia.
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:41 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think a lot of them would be baffled and bemused by the apparent prudery or puritanism of a lot US age-of-maturity laws. We already know that UKians, as a society, don't see anything inherently wrong with a grown ass man knowingly soliciting a sixteen year old for sex. So all of this extreme outrage and vicious personal attacks, over the age gap and the arbitrary age of consent seems disingenuous to me.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'll give it a whirl: yes.

The answer is of course meaningless without elaboration though, as any 16 yo could tell you. It comes down to a personal judgement. I would rather it be illegal for an over 21 to have sex with an under 18, full stop. But that comes from my sense of what is proper. If the citizens of a given jurisdiction think that a 16yo can make that decision for him or herself, I don't see the reason in assigning a legal upper age limit on their choice of partner. If they can consent, they can consent to whom they wish, if and only if it is deemed acceptable in the culture or relevant jurisdiction.

Ok, so lets be clear, you are both fine with Jeffrey Epsteins' behaviour?
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Old 19th June 2022, 12:45 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ok, so lets be clear, you are both fine with Jeffrey Epsteins' behaviour?
Hahaha. No. Try again.
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Old 19th June 2022, 01:02 PM   #462
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ok, so lets be clear, you are both fine with Jeffrey Epsteins' behaviour?
If you read, you would find that could not possibly be so.
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Old 19th June 2022, 01:21 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This from someone who believes the UK is a nation of Epsteins, and half of Australia is more of the same.
Where did I say this?
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Old 19th June 2022, 01:22 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
How do we know what she told them ("them" being Louisiana Department of Child & Family Services)?

The Daily Mail story says "she never told anyone who the father was or that she had been raped".

The only quote I've seen from Abelseth is that her family believed that her then-boyfriend was the father.

"Everyone assumed he was," she said.

If you've seen something that indicates what, if anything, the DCFS asked her about the father and what she replied, please point me in that direction.
Yes, I would like to see evidence of this as well. It seems some posters are clutching at every straw to excuse Barnes.
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Old 19th June 2022, 02:10 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes, I would like to see evidence of this as well. It seems some posters are clutching at every straw to excuse Barnes.
Still lying.

A 17 year old gives birth and allows everyone to believe that her boyfriend is the father also removes any reason to believe there was a rape.

And recognizing this is not being a rape apologist, as by now you well know.
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Old 19th June 2022, 02:15 PM   #466
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Still lying.

A 17 year old gives birth and allows everyone to believe that her boyfriend is the father also removes any reason to believe there was a rape.

And recognizing this is not being a rape apologist, as by now you well know.
Evidence for the bolded?

You are making assumptions.
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Old 19th June 2022, 02:46 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She didn't "name" this alleged boyfriend, it STILL bears to be investigated, even with the "close age teenager" laws in Louisiana.

The absolute minimum investigation should have been done to at least identify who this "boyfriend" was and his age.
Do you know that it wasn't?

Louisiana doesn't require a fathers name on the birth certificate?
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Old 19th June 2022, 03:58 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
...and the rapist was awarded full custody because the mother got her 16 yo daughter a cell phone? Wtf?
A later article said he wanted to see what was on the phone and the mom refused.

Believe it or not there are plenty of misogynistic judges.

The article also said the police didn't follow up when she filed initial rape charges. It sounded like the woman had been let down by the system on multiple levels. She now has an attorney actually working for her and the daughter's best interests.


(In an article cited by Smartcooky 2 pages back.)

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Old 19th June 2022, 04:01 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Do you know that it wasn't?

Louisiana doesn't require a fathers name on the birth certificate?
You can put 'unknown'. There are times when one doesn't actually know.
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Old 19th June 2022, 04:04 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
She now has an attorney actually working for her and the daughter's best interests.
We do not know this.
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Old 19th June 2022, 04:09 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She didn't "name" this alleged boyfriend, it STILL bears to be investigated, even with the "close age teenager" laws in Louisiana.

The absolute minimum investigation should have been done to at least identify who this "boyfriend" was and his age.
I'm not familiar with CPS laws in Louisiana but the hospital may or may not have reported it to CPS or to the police.

You get a 12 yr old giving birth and it almost certainly would be reported. But a 17 yr old who says her "boyfriend" is the father, or even if she declines to name a father, and the hospital staff and the prenatal doctor for that matter, may not have reported it.

It's CPS or the police who take action or investigates, not the hospital.
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Old 19th June 2022, 04:11 PM   #472
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I know that in California they immediately try to find out who and where the father is, but that's not for rape concerns. It's to make sure he starts paying child support if they aren't married.
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Old 19th June 2022, 04:12 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can put 'unknown'. There are times when one doesn't actually know.
In this case she said it was her ' boyfriend ' .. Should we believe she didn't know his name? Or, that there was more than one boyfriend, in which case she could not be sure which one was the father?
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Old 19th June 2022, 04:18 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, I agree that there's an element of arbitrariness to it. My personal belief is that, legally speaking, 18 should be the age of consent. Morally, I think once you get into your 20s, you should stop seeking out children to be your sex partners. ...
While I do think there is an issue with older men and women having sex with consenting but under age (however it is defined) teens, I also have an issue with the naivety of thinking kids aren't sexually active as early as 12 (my girlfriend) or 14 (myself). Kids in my circle of friends were all sexually active by 16.
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Old 19th June 2022, 04:24 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
In this case she said it was her ' boyfriend ' .. Should we believe she didn't know his name? Or, that there was more than one boyfriend, in which case she could not be sure which one was the father?
We surely can't pull data out of news reports that isn't in them.
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Old 19th June 2022, 05:13 PM   #476
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No argument from me, but 13 pages of discussion about what wasn't in the report does not seem to be a problem for some..
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Old 19th June 2022, 06:23 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think a lot of them would be baffled and bemused by the apparent prudery or puritanism of a lot US age-of-maturity laws. We already know that UKians, as a society, don't see anything inherently wrong with a grown ass man knowingly soliciting a sixteen year old for sex. So all of this extreme outrage and vicious personal attacks, over the age gap and the arbitrary age of consent seems disingenuous to me.
Or - and hear me out - some people don't like the idea of adults having sex with children. YMMV... and very clearly does.
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Old 19th June 2022, 06:27 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This from someone who believes the UK is a nation of Epsteins, and half of Australia is more of the same.
A country with an age of consent of 16 doesn't mean that all the adults there are constantly on the prowl for sex with high schoolers.

Some of them might actually have their own sense of morality that supersedes the law and tells them not to have sex with children.

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Old 19th June 2022, 06:30 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
There we have that unspoken, "you're a paedophile", thing you've got going here. That sleazy interpretation of posts I mentioned earlier.
What's the non-sleazy interpretation of someone being cool with 30 year-old men having sex with 16 year-old girls?
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Old 19th June 2022, 06:32 PM   #480
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Quote:
Some of them might actually have their own sense of morality that supersedes the law and tells them not to hav sex with children.
It would seem that most of them do..

Since these stories are sensational because they are exceptional, that would seem to be the case.
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