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Old 21st June 2022, 12:20 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Doesn't being convicted have something to do with that?
You are an attorney, correct? If I have that right, then I am relieved you at least ask the question.

But in my opinion, no. The lack of a conviction for a rape that is actually a matter of fact should not impact a decision to grant the guy custody. Simply knowing without doubt that the child was conceived thru rape would preclude me even considering granting the father any form of visitation.
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Old 21st June 2022, 12:24 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Would that scenario typically be prosecuted? I'm not saying it never has been, but if you went running to the police to say 5 years ago some guy had sex with a 16 year old he met drinking in a bar with a fake ID, and she said it was consensual, would they really pursue it? Would that scenario, in the absence of a conviction typically result in a loss of custody? There are certainly cases where female teachers have had sex with their students and gotten pregnant. Are their babies normally snatched away from them?

I'm just not sure that this is the clear slam dunk, line in the sand it is being presented as.
With what we know now, it is an absolute that she was raped and that the father is the rapist. That is all I need to know to form the opinion that he should not have custody. Whether or not he is ever prosecuted for it isn’t irrelevant (to me. YMMV).
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Old 21st June 2022, 12:34 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Would that scenario typically be prosecuted? I'm not saying it never has been, but if you went running to the police to say 5 years ago some guy had sex with a 16 year old he met drinking in a bar with a fake ID, and she said it was consensual, would they really pursue it? Would that scenario, in the absence of a conviction typically result in a loss of custody? There are certainly cases where female teachers have had sex with their students and gotten pregnant. Are their babies normally snatched away from them?

I'm just not sure that this is the clear slam dunk, line in the sand it is being presented as.
They apparently believe in robotic jurors who will apply the law strictly as written and will never stop to ponder issues like whether she had fake ID, because it is irrelevant.
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Old 21st June 2022, 12:53 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
They apparently believe in robotic jurors who will apply the law strictly as written and will never stop to ponder issues like whether she had fake ID, because it is irrelevant.
As I understand it, a juror would never be allowed to hear the argument that she had a fake ID. That she lied about her age, even if she went to extraordinary lengths to do so, is not a permitted defense. Doesn’t that mean a defense attorney would be prohibited from introducing it at trial?

“In Louisiana, as in most states, it is not a defense to a charge of carnal knowledge of a juvenile, aggravated rape, indecent behavior with a juvenile, or sexual battery that the defendant did not know that the child was underage. This is so even if the child lied about his or her age or looked older. (La. Rev. Stat. Ann. §§ 14:42, 14:43.1, 14:80, 14:80.1 14:81 (2018).)”

If I understand it correctly, the jury would hear that she was underage, he was 33, they had sex. I would think that his attorney would work very hard to reach a plea.
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:00 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
I actually prefer this reason over the alternative .
That they prioritize staffing for harassing the homeless instead of investigating sexual assaults? I guess people really hate those who just have no where to live way more than they hate people who sexually assault women.
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:05 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
With what we know now, it is an absolute that she was raped and that the father is the rapist. That is all I need to know to form the opinion that he should not have custody. Whether or not he is ever prosecuted for it isn’t irrelevant (to me. YMMV).
Saying it over and over doesn't add anything. If he reasonably thought he was hooking up with a 21 year old, I'm not sure that we learn anything very shocking about him if she had a fake ID and he was tricked. The other claims seem to be far more informative about their characters.

I ask again though.... Is the standard you are adamantly sticking to the general standard? I'm thinking of Hermesmann v. Seyer where the 17 year old babysitter got pregnant by the 13 year old boy she was looking after. He got sued for child support. I'm sceptical that your view is actually the view the courts have consistently gone with on this issue.
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:06 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That they prioritize staffing for harassing the homeless instead of investigating sexual assaults? I guess people really hate those who just have no where to live way more than they hate people who sexually assault women.
No, I prefer that the police were just lazy and incompetent rather than that they actively conspired with the rapist in this case. I was replying to the first sentence…that cops routinely ignore rape accusations.
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:16 PM   #568
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Looking at this:
https://law.justia.com/codes/louisia...le14/rs14-80-1

It seems like the boyfriend of the daughter is guilty of misdemeanour carnal knowledge of a juvenile, assuming the new stories are true.

The statute for the office the father has committed is here:
https://law.justia.com/codes/louisia...e-14/rs-14-80/
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:18 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Saying it over and over doesn't add anything. If he reasonably thought he was hooking up with a 21 year old, I'm not sure that we learn anything very shocking about him if she had a fake ID and he was tricked. The other claims seem to be far more informative about their characters.
We learn nothing new about him…we already knew he was a rapist.

Quote:
I ask again though.... Is the standard you are adamantly sticking to the general standard?
Is it a general standard in Louisiana? I don’t know, but that is the only place where such a standard is relevant. Other than that, we are talking about my personal opinion that the rapist doesn’t get custody of it is known he raped the mother.

Quote:
I'm thinking of Hermesmann v. Seyer where the 17 year old babysitter got pregnant by the 13 year old boy she was looking after. He got sued for child support. I'm sceptical that your view is actually the view the courts have consistently gone with on this issue.
I don’t see the relevance. The case you cite was in Kansas, not Louisiana. The case you cite is fundamentally different in that the father was the victim of rape, the father never sought custody, and the case only affirmed that as a civil matter, both parents are obligated to contribute to the child’s support

That differs fundamentally from whether or not the rapist should be awarded custody in a case in Louisiana. Louisiana has already ruled that if the father has some custody, the mother must still contribute to the support.
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:19 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Looking at this:
https://law.justia.com/codes/louisia...le14/rs14-80-1

It seems like the boyfriend of the daughter is guilty of misdemeanour carnal knowledge of a juvenile, assuming the new stories are true.

The statute for the office the father has committed is here:
https://law.justia.com/codes/louisia...e-14/rs-14-80/
Was the boyfriend at least two years her senior?
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:24 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
As I understand it, a juror would never be allowed to hear the argument that she had a fake ID. That she lied about her age, even if she went to extraordinary lengths to do so, is not a permitted defense. Doesn’t that mean a defense attorney would be prohibited from introducing it at trial?
I'm not sure the argument is that, if all this turns out to be true, felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile hasn't been committed. The sentence though can swing from a modest fine to 10 years in prison. I would hope that it would count as mitigation.
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:28 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
Was the boyfriend at least two years her senior?
Yes.

Quote:
In December 2020, Barnes again moved for expanded custody, accusing Abelseth of allowing their daughter, then 14, to "make out" with her 17-year-old boyfriend in her room unsupervised.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/louisiana...child-says-lie

There is the sexting as well on the multiple phones provided by the mother in violation of the custody agreement.

The claim is that the mother was knowingly enabling misdemeanour carnal knowledge of a juvenile in her house.
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Old 21st June 2022, 01:53 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yes.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/louisiana...child-says-lie

There is the sexting as well on the multiple phones provided by the mother in violation of the custody agreement.

The claim is that the mother was knowingly enabling misdemeanour carnal knowledge of a juvenile in her house.
There's no evidence that this is true other than the claims of the father. Which is odd, at the very least. How would he know? How does he know who the mother sleeps with? Where is he getting this information to make these accusations and why is the judge taking them as gospel?

There is evidence that Barnes raped the mother, there's no evidence this even happened.

For someone bitching and moaning that we have to wait for facts, you sure don't hesitate to the the fathers word on this. Why is that? Very curious.
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Old 21st June 2022, 02:00 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There's no evidence that this is true other than the claims of the father.

After you have repeatedly stated pretty much everything the mother claims as pure fact, this is pretty funny.

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Old 21st June 2022, 02:02 PM   #575
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
With what we know now, it is an absolute that she was raped and that the father is the rapist. That is all I need to know to form the opinion that he should not have custody. Whether or not he is ever prosecuted for it isn’t irrelevant (to me. YMMV).
Do you feel that way about any crime that might show up in a father's record, or just statutory rape?
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Old 21st June 2022, 02:08 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
We learn nothing new about him…we already knew he was a rapist.
I disagree. I think that to be tarred as a "rapist", knowledge of the act is at least required. In many jurisdictions, someone who reasonably believes their partner is of age may be committing statutory rape under the law, but it would be a very dick move to call them a rapist because of it.

The word "rape" is being extremely, disingenuously overworked in this thread. There are significant, important distinctions between forcible rape, statutory rape, and inadvertent statutory rape. The three perpetrators in those three scenarios are three very different people, who should be judged differently according to the different natures of the acts they each committed.

You and others in this thread are trying to gaslight us into dropping the full weight of "forcible rapist" on someone, without justification.
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Old 21st June 2022, 02:13 PM   #577
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By Sarge' logic, no father of a child conceived by consensual sex with a minor should ever have custody of the child, regardless of the shortcomings of the mother. It's better that the child be abused.
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Old 21st June 2022, 02:17 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There's no evidence that this is true other than the claims of the father. Which is odd, at the very least. How would he know? How does he know who the mother sleeps with? Where is he getting this information to make these accusations and why is the judge taking them as gospel?

There is evidence that Barnes raped the mother, there's no evidence this even happened.

For someone bitching and moaning that we have to wait for facts, you sure don't hesitate to the the fathers word on this. Why is that? Very curious.
Fox News ASbA source is pretty funny too.
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Old 21st June 2022, 02:31 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There's no evidence that this is true other than the claims of the father. Which is odd, at the very least. How would he know? How does he know who the mother sleeps with? Where is he getting this information to make these accusations and why is the judge taking them as gospel?
We don't know, because we only have a very limited account of what has occurred, what evidence was presented, and what was argued. Only a partisan, or a fool would take either sides claims on trust.

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
There is evidence that Barnes raped the mother, there's no evidence this even happened.
Well, we have quotes from the judge. The entire casefile hasn't been dropped on the internet, so what is there to be said beyond if the mothers claims are true, then the father is a piece of work and if the fathers claims are true, then the mother is kind of dreadful?

Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
For someone bitching and moaning that we have to wait for facts, you sure don't hesitate to the the fathers word on this. Why is that? Very curious.
Is the situation improved by completely ignoring the fathers words? Maybe it would be improved further by ignoring anything in the mothers story that is inconvenient, or inconsistent? If we are reasonable people, we are interested in what both sides have to say.

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Old 21st June 2022, 02:50 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I disagree. I think that to be tarred as a "rapist", knowledge of the act is at least required. In many jurisdictions, someone who reasonably believes their partner is of age may be committing statutory rape under the law, but it would be a very dick move to call them a rapist because of it.

The word "rape" is being extremely, disingenuously overworked in this thread. There are significant, important distinctions between forcible rape, statutory rape, and inadvertent statutory rape. The three perpetrators in those three scenarios are three very different people, who should be judged differently according to the different natures of the acts they each committed.

You and others in this thread are trying to gaslight us into dropping the full weight of "forcible rapist" on someone, without justification.

This is the issue for me. I understand that Louisiana law doesn't have a "reasonable belief" exception to the statutory rape law like many other states have. In my opinion, it should have such an exception. It's been stated many times that not knowing the other person's age is not a defense to statutory rape, and in many cases this a probably a good thing. "Yes, Your Honor, I did meet her on a middle school playground, but really, I had no idea she was twelve!"

On the other hand, in a case like this, where the guy met a woman drinking in a bar, being served alcohol by a bartender who presumably checked her ID, he has every reason to believe that she's at least four years over the age of consent.

Again, it doesn't mean anything for this case, because this guy will be judged on the laws as written now, but IMO, a law that you can not only inadvertently break, but completely unknowingly break is not a good law. How many years was Barnes a felon without even knowing he broke the law?
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Old 21st June 2022, 07:05 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I disagree. I think that to be tarred as a "rapist", knowledge of the act is at least required. In many jurisdictions, someone who reasonably believes their partner is of age may be committing statutory rape under the law, but it would be a very dick move to call them a rapist because of it.
It is reasonable that you feel that way, but as a matter of fact he is a rapist and even if she lied about her age there is no mitigation in this instance.

Quote:
The word "rape" is being extremely, disingenuously overworked in this thread. There are significant, important distinctions between forcible rape, statutory rape, and inadvertent statutory rape. The three perpetrators in those three scenarios are three very different people, who should be judged differently according to the different natures of the acts they each committed.
I am not using the word disingenuously. I am using it accurately. I certainly see (and the law allows) a difference between forcible rape and statutory rape. In this jurisdiction however, there is no such thing as inadvertent statutory rape, and a person that did not know they were committing statutory rape will not (in this jurisdiction of the law is followed properly) be judged differently than someone who knowingly commits statutory rape.

Quote:
You and others in this thread are trying to gaslight us into dropping the full weight of "forcible rapist" on someone, without justification.
I am not. I don’t know what others may be attempting to do.

I am firm in my conviction that he is (obviously) guilty of rape and that alone should permanently disqualify him from consideration for custody. I do not consider your disagreement to be ‘rape apology’ or any of the other crap bandied about in this thread, but I do disagree with your position, assuming I understand it properly.
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Old 21st June 2022, 07:10 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
By Sarge' logic, no father of a child conceived by consensual sex with a minor should ever have custody of the child, regardless of the shortcomings of the mother. It's better that the child be abused.
That is not a fair extension of my logic. After all, all consensual sex with a minor is not rape. And, there is no reasonable way to stretch what I wrote to ‘it’s better that the child be abused’. There are, after all, alternatives to giving the child over to a rapist or leaving it with an abuser.
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Old 21st June 2022, 07:13 PM   #583
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you feel that way about any crime that might show up in a father's record, or just statutory rape?
No, and no.
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Old 21st June 2022, 07:22 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not sure the argument is that, if all this turns out to be true, felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile hasn't been committed. The sentence though can swing from a modest fine to 10 years in prison. I would hope that it would count as mitigation.
It is certain that the crime of felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile has been committed. As the defense of lack of knowledge of age will not even be permitted to be used at trial, it will not impact the verdict. I don’t know if it may impact sentencing.

To be clear, I do not like the law in Louisiana. I understand it and I understand the motivation behind it, but I think it is bad law. A person that legitimately goes to reasonable lengths to ensure that the person he is consorting with is legal to consort with hasn’t broken any moral code that I hold. I do not consider ‘I picked her up in a bar’ to be reasonable caution. I do not consider accepting the word of a girl that appears to be in her teens to be reasonable caution. I can however foresee a set of circumstances where a man has done everything reasonable and in Louisiana, he would still be a rapist. That’s a general opinion and has nothing to do with this specific case.

I am a misogynist as well, on this subject. I find I consider it more offensive when an older man is with a young girl than the reverse, and I have no logical reason for it.
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Old 21st June 2022, 08:22 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post

LA has no Romeo and Juliet laws, or any provisions for sexual activity under 17 years of age. Its a simple hard line at 17 for AoC, no ifs, ands, or buts. If two 16 yr old have consensual sex together, they are both guilty of statutory rape in Louisiana. Rarely enforced, I would imagine, but law nonetheless.
IOW the LA law is badly written and needs to be selectively enforced out of necessity. I'm not sure we should be surprised about selective enforcement and I think "I want different selective enforcement of this law" is a suspect argument even if I happen to agree that the outcome was wrong.

IMO the custody case itself should depend on what's best for the child right now (I don't know whether it is or isn't, nor am I claiming to) and child support should be paid the person awarded custody. If the father having custody is best for the child he should have it and be paid child support regardless of what happened in the past. I would not however be surprised if this were a case of the father simply having more economic power, but again I don't know that either.
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Old 21st June 2022, 09:36 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I don’t need to prove he knew she was underage. It’s rape either way. And why would we use Whoopi’s formulation? Rape is rape.



Still kind of gross, but not illegal. And for the creepy dudes who engage in this practice and then somehow get tricked into sex with an underage girl, I have no sympathy for you. Stop preying on women that young,and that much younger than you, and maybe accidentally becoming a rapist will no longer be something you have to worry about.

Unfortunately for the 30 year-old in question, this is an irrelevant question. He’s still a rapist.

Hold on. My mom was 20 when she met my 28 year old dad. There are plenty of relationships with age gaps in that range. Why is it creepy/predatory, no ifs ands or buts?
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Old 21st June 2022, 09:46 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it isn't - the relevant legislation was quoted I think on the first page, if it was a similar aged boyfriend it isn't statutory rape.

There’s something in that law that a lot of people are glossing over: that being married is a defense.

So it’s ok in LA for a 30 year old to be married to a 16 year old, if the parents consent. I guess it’s not creepy in that case, since it isn’t against the law?
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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:23 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by sarge View Post
...snip...I am a misogynist as well, on this subject.
Don't you mean misandrist since a misogynist would be predudicial against women?

Quote:
I find I consider it more offensive when an older man is with a young girl than the reverse, and I have no logical reason for it.
Quite, young boys being sexually exploited... pah!. Let's move on though.

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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:32 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Hold on. My mom was 20 when she met my 28 year old dad. There are plenty of relationships with age gaps in that range. Why is it creepy/predatory, no ifs ands or buts?
Aren't we considering the age of the youngest party at the commencement of the relationship?

At 20 your mother seems well old enough to consent.

If you're dad started courting her when he was 23/24.... well, in some states/countries that's a whole 'nother issue and he's a predatory creep.

(for context my wife is 9 years younger than me)
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Old 22nd June 2022, 02:51 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Hold on. My mom was 20 when she met my 28 year old dad. There are plenty of relationships with age gaps in that range. Why is it creepy/predatory, no ifs ands or buts?
I think you're venturing into a discussion about subjective opinions on the matter, although it's been posted a few times in this thread that, in general, a person in their 30's engaging in sex or even a relationship with a person in their teens is viewed as creepy. Personally, I don't see any problem with the age that your parents were when they met.

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There’s something in that law that a lot of people are glossing over: that being married is a defense.

So it’s ok in LA for a 30 year old to be married to a 16 year old, if the parents consent. I guess it’s not creepy in that case, since it isn’t against the law?
I'd imagine that the response in most cases here would be "legal, fine, but still creepy, imo. ymmv". Marriagable ages vary throughout the world, but a 13 or 14 year-old may be married, with parental consent, in places like Cuba, Colombia or Iran, and the legality of it will not make it less creepy to some people if that person was twice their age.

The law in Louisianna is presumably designed exactly so that if there is any reason to doubt the age of the drunk young girl you just picked up at the bar, y'all would be better advised to err on the side of caution.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 02:57 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
I think you're venturing into a discussion about subjective opinions on the matter, although it's been posted a few times in this thread that, in general, a person in their 30's engaging in sex or even a relationship with a person in their teens is viewed as creepy. Personally, I don't see any problem with the age that your parents were when they met.



I'd imagine that the response in most cases here would be "legal, fine, but still creepy, imo. ymmv". Marriagable ages vary throughout the world, but a 13 or 14 year-old may be married, with parental consent, in places like Cuba, Colombia or Iran, and the legality of it will not make it less creepy to some people if that person was twice their age.

The law in Louisianna is presumably designed exactly so that if there is any reason to doubt the age of the drunk young girl you just picked up at the bar, y'all would be better advised to err on the side of caution.

Until a couple of years ago there was no minimum age for marriage in LA. So, as I mentioned, I am not surprised if some small town doesn't pay much attention to a 16 y/o getting pregnant. It is probably not even close to the egregious side of things for that state (not that I consider it egregious, anyway).

From 2019 article:

Quote:
Louisiana does not currently have a minimum age for marriage. Instead, a judge must sign off on weddings involving a child under 16, and both parents must approve a marriage involving a 16 or 17 year old. That system can allow an adult to impregnate a child and then marry her to avoid suspicion or criminal penalties.

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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:12 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
By Sarge' logic, no father of a child conceived by consensual sex with a minor should ever have custody of the child, regardless of the shortcomings of the mother. It's better that the child be abused.
It isn't a binary choice. The child could be better of not being raised by either the mother or the father - we don't have to choose between the lesser of two evils.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:17 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It isn't a binary choice. The child could be better of not being raised by either the mother or the father - we don't have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was actually the mother who pursued Barnes for the child support/involvement, even indirectly. It could be that the best thing to happen for that child was the father being involved in the upbringing/support. The mom sounds like she was a hot mess.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:29 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was actually the mother who pursued Barnes for the child support/involvement, even indirectly. It could be that the best thing to happen for that child was the father being involved in the upbringing/support. The mom sounds like she was a hot mess.
The Fox article claims that she informed him that he might have fathered the child. She is also supposed to have requested the paternity tests. The original custody agreement, agreed without the court, had no child support. She sued for child support 8 months later.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:34 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The Fox article claims that she informed him that he might have fathered the child. She is also supposed to have requested the paternity tests. The original custody agreement, agreed without the court, had no child support. She sued for child support 8 months later.
There’s your problem.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:37 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Until a couple of years ago there was no minimum age for marriage in LA. So, as I mentioned, I am not surprised if some small town doesn't pay much attention to a 16 y/o getting pregnant. It is probably not even close to the egregious side of things for that state (not that I consider it egregious, anyway).

From 2019 article:
There may not have been a minimum age law for marriage, but there has long been a minimum age law for sex. Whether people in the state are aware of the marriage law isn't relevant, but I would expect them to be aware of consent laws.

"Under the proposed law, 16 and 17-year-old juveniles would have to get parental and judicial consent to marry, and the age gap between a minor and an adult could not be more than three years." Link

But this case is not just a 16 year-old getting pregnant.
As I said, different people view this differently and you've made it clear that you have little or no problem with it.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:47 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
There’s your problem.
Well, I'm sure if you only read the partisan positions of your side, then you will find your views continually validated.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:47 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Don't you mean misandrist since a misogynist would be predudicial against women?
I think I’ll argue misogyny. My prejudice is that 16 year old girls are more likely to be traumatized by even consensual sex than similarly aged boys,
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Old 22nd June 2022, 03:58 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Well, I'm sure if you only read the partisan positions of your side, then you will find your views continually validated.
You think there is nothing curious about Fox News, with its history of inflammatory and fake news, lionised my Trump, being the only source publishing this sort of stuff? You endorse Fox News as a reputable source?

You have to be joking.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 04:05 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You think there is nothing curious about Fox News, with its history of inflammatory and fake news, lionised my Trump, being the only source publishing this sort of stuff? You endorse Fox News as a reputable source?

You have to be joking.
Inflammatory, perhaps. Again, if you only accept news from your side of the aisle, then your side had better have some kind of mythical Walter Cronkite like commitment to impartiality and balance..... otherwise you've outsourced your thinking.
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