Rape victim to pay child support to her rapist

[lionking]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Inflammatory, perhaps. Again, if you only accept news from your side of the aisle, then your side had better have some kind of mythical Walter Cronkite like commitment to impartiality and balance..... otherwise you've outsourced your thinking.

Sorry which “side” am is supposed to be on? I assume from your history of posting it is a left-right dichotomy. Where do I lie?

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by lionking

Sorry which “side” am is supposed to be on? I assume from your history of posting it is a left-right dichotomy. Where do I lie?

left-right is tricky. Everybody has a different definition of it. If you are accepting the news sources that have come up so far in this thread, and unilaterally dismissing Fox, you are certainly on one side of something.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

left-right is tricky. Everybody has a different definition of it. If you are accepting the news sources that have come up so far in this thread, and unilaterally dismissing Fox, you are certainly on one side of something.

Great non-answer. So I’m on one side but you can’t identify it.

Okay, let me make it easier for you. I am not on the side of a rapist who probably influenced Hicksville PD to not investigate one rape and lose a rape kit for another.

If I am on a different side to you, I’m proud of that.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by lionking

Great non-answer. So I’m on one side but you can’t identify it.

Okay, let me make it easier for you. I am not on the side of a rapist who probably influenced Hicksville PD to not investigate one rape and lose a rape kit for another.

If I am on a different side to you, I’m proud of that.

How about just being on the side of the truth, without blindly accepting/discrediting anything? Can we at least agree on that? These continued/labored personal arguments have become tedious and distracting.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Warp12

How about just being on the side of the truth, without blindly accepting/discrediting anything? Can we at least agree on that? These continued/labored personal arguments have become tedious and distracting.

That is very, very funny coming from you. I needed that laugh.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by lionking

Great non-answer. So I’m on one side but you can’t identify it.

Okay, let me make it easier for you. I am not on the side of a rapist who probably influenced Hicksville PD to not investigate one rape and lose a rape kit for another.

If I am on a different side to you, I’m proud of that.

Right, but we don't know that that is one of the two sides. You could be on the side of somebody who invents false forcible rape claims, assists misdemeanour carnal knowledge of a juvenile with her daughter, and conspired with her daughter to make false allegations. We don't know. If you uncritically believe the account of your side, of course you think you are on the good side. It's super easy to be on the good side if you block your ears to the arguments of the other side. Everybody is on the good side with that sort of thinking.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Right, but we don't know that that is one of the two sides. You could be on the side of somebody who invents false forcible rape claims, assists misdemeanour carnal knowledge of a juvenile with her daughter, and conspired with her daughter to make false allegations. We don't know. If you uncritically believe the account of your side, of course you think you are on the good side. Everybody is on the good side with that sort of thinking.

You will note that I did not use the word “forcible”. It may have been. The mother claims that, but I haven’t. Are you denying that rape occurred given the ages of the victim and the rapist?

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Well, I'm sure if you only read the partisan positions of your side, then you will find your views continually validated.

I hope you're not arguing that if you don't watch Fox News, you're not getting the (politically) right side of any story? That is just wrong. Fox News is not just politically right, it is a far-right source like Newsmax and OAN (although not quite as extremist). Tucker Carlson's Power Hour" (which is very aptly tagged "White Power Hour") is nothing more than a platform for his nightly tirades promoting overtly racist conspiracy theories like "White Replacement", and for his sycophantic pandering to his heroes Putin, Erdogan and Bolsonaro. The other high profile Fox News talking heads, Janine "Mad Cow" Pirro, Laura Ingraham, Brian Kilmeade and Sean Hannity are just as bad.

There are plenty of other conservative sources that are honest, such as the Washington Examiner, Reason Magazine and the WSJ. Fox News have just become an outlet for misinformation, disinformation, outright lies, racism and fascist apologism. They have been independently fact-checked and found to be broadcasting falsehoods numerous times, and I frankly do not trust anything they say.

I use to watch a few of the Fox News regulars - contributors Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes and anchor Chris Wallace, because despite being conservatives, they were reasonable and measured. They're all gone now, and have have no desire to take any notice of the remaining trash.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by lionking

You will note that I did not use the word “forcible”. It may have been. The mother claims that, but I haven’t. Are you denying that rape occurred given the ages of the victim and the rapist?

Felony carnal knowledge of a juvenile looks like it occurred. I think blanket calling it rape confuses the issue, given that a separate claim that actually matches an actual rape statute is also on the table. Your side could be as I describe it, the side of false allegations, facilitating repeated misdemeanour carnal knowledge of a juvenile etc.. One can't prejudge who the good guys in the case are.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by sarge

No, and no.

Okay, so how do you decide which crimes count against the father in a custody case?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by sarge

That is not a fair extension of my logic. After all, all consensual sex with a minor is not rape. ...

It isn't? How did you determine that this case is rape?

[Thermal]

Ok, so if I have this straight:

Abelseth ordered the paternity test, requested Barnes be listed as the father, and consented to shared custody of the daughter right out of the gate. Seems like that was important information, seeing as Barnes is being framed as working the system to his advantage at her expense. So I suppose that the Courts allowed the arrangement as Abelseth appeared to be agreeable to the arrangement, and presumably all considered it to be in the daughter's best interests? I guess I can see that, although I'm not clear on how the Courts could let the indisputable statutory rape get a free pass.

So did Abseleth agree to this because she had 5 kids and a bunch of marriages, and the original boyfriend in lockup? Seems financially prudent. So was this a friendly arrangement, or did she agree under duress out of desperation to have help in raising the kid?

All this keeps circling back to whether they both actually want what is best for the kid, or if the guy is the ogre he is being portrayed as, or if Abelseth was fine with it till she had to make payments to the father.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I hope you're not arguing that if you don't watch Fox News, you're not getting the (politically) right side of any story? That is just wrong. Fox News is not just politically right, it is a far-right source like Newsmax and OAN (although not quite as extremist). Tucker Carlson's Power Hour" (which is very aptly tagged "White Power Hour") is nothing more than a platform for his nightly tirades promoting overtly racist conspiracy theories like "White Replacement", and for his sycophantic pandering to his heroes Putin, Erdogan and Bolsonaro. The other high profile Fox News talking heads, Janine "Mad Cow" Pirro, Laura Ingraham, Brian Kilmeade and Sean Hannity are just as bad.

There are plenty of other conservative sources that are honest, such as the Washington Examiner, Reason Magazine and the WSJ. Fox News have just become an outlet for misinformation, disinformation, outright lies, racism and fascist apologism. They have been independently fact-checked and found to be broadcasting falsehoods numerous times, and I frankly do not trust anything they say.

I use to watch a few of the Fox News regulars - contributors Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes and anchor Chris Wallace, because despite being conservatives, they were reasonable and measured. They're all gone now, and have have no desire to take any notice of the remaining trash.

I don't watch Fox News. I think the issue is that all of these institutions have filters in terms of what facts and what opinions they will air. Plenty of people with more right-friendly things to say will be interviewed on Fox. If we refuse to consider what they say because it was Fox that did the interview, then you put yourself in the position we have in this case where we give a hearing to one side and then stick our fingers in our ears when the other side begins talking.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Thermal

All this keeps circling back to whether they both actually want what is best for the kid, or if the guy is the ogre he is being portrayed as, or if Abelseth was fine with it till she had to make payments to the father.

Anything is possible, but it seems extreme to lie about a rape, and then have your daughter lie about abuse to multiple authority figures, just so that you don't have to pay child support for, what? Two years?

Then again, the judge just decides what she has to pay based on what he thinks she should be making, and Barnes is accusing her of taking money under the table. Which we haven't seen any actual evidence of either.

I'm glad that the DA has the case now because maybe some actual investigative work will get done and some details will come out.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ok, so if I have this straight:

Abelseth ordered the paternity test, requested Barnes be listed as the father, and consented to shared custody of the daughter right out of the gate. Seems like that was important information, seeing as Barnes is being framed as working the system to his advantage at her expense. So I suppose that the Courts allowed the arrangement as Abelseth appeared to be agreeable to the arrangement, and presumably all considered it to be in the daughter's best interests? I guess I can see that, although I'm not clear on how the Courts could let the indisputable statutory rape get a free pass.

So did Abseleth agree to this because she had 5 kids and a bunch of marriages, and the original boyfriend in lockup? Seems financially prudent. So was this a friendly arrangement, or did she agree under duress out of desperation to have help in raising the kid?

All this keeps circling back to whether they both actually want what is best for the kid, or if the guy is the ogre he is being portrayed as, or if Abelseth was fine with it till she had to make payments to the father.

If the fathers chronology is correct, it looks like things started to go south when he complained to the court about her maintaining contact with the ex-con ex-boyfriend and the "revolving door" of men sleeping over. The first accusation against him came a month later.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

There are plenty of other conservative sources that are honest, such as the Washington Examiner, Reason Magazine and the WSJ.

None of which act as a source for this story though.

What's your take on The Independent? They're running it but they are 41% owned by an ex KGB oligarch.

New York Post are running it but..... Rupert Murdoch (the story seems to be an affiliate piece that differs little from the "known" narrative).

NBC are running it too and they are considered by 51% of polled respondents to be very or somewhat liberal. There's nothing revealing about their reporting of the story.

Let's not go down the Daily Mail route even though they are right on track with the "known" information too.

So, were you upbraiding shuttlt about his assumed choice of media outlets, posting an off topic, op-ed piece on the state of US news reporting or
suggesting that Fox News' reporting on this story might be skewed politically or in some way as to be completely unreliable?

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by plague311

Anything is possible, but it seems extreme to lie about a rape, and then have your daughter lie about abuse to multiple authority figures, just so that you don't have to pay child support for, what? Two years?

Then again, the judge just decides what she has to pay based on what he thinks she should be making, and Barnes is accusing her of taking money under the table. Which we haven't seen any actual evidence of either.

I'm glad that the DA has the case now because maybe some actual investigative work will get done and some details will come out.

Yeah, this. Getting this out of the good ol'boys backwoods tarpaper shacks should get the ducks is in a row right pronto.

Financially, it seems she would be making out better under the new custody arrangement. She pays $70 something now, and $117 next year? Providing for a teen surely costs a lot more than that, so aside from tax deductions or whatever aid she might get, she makes money here, so financial considerations are not likely a motivator.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Yeah, this. Getting this out of the good ol'boys backwoods tarpaper shacks should get the ducks is in a row right pronto.

So, after the father has paid years of support and helped raise the child, seemingly with her blessing for a good portion of the time, it sounds like a good time to throw the book at him for statutory rape?

All this after he had sex with someone who was misrepresenting her age, even down to a a fake ID. Sounds like this guy is the real victim, here.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Yeah, this. Getting this out of the good ol'boys backwoods tarpaper shacks should get the ducks is in a row right pronto.

Financially, it seems she would be making out better under the new custody arrangement. She pays $70 something now, and $117 next year? Providing for a teen surely costs a lot more than that, so aside from tax deductions or whatever aid she might get, she makes money here, so financial considerations are not likely a motivator.

That is the deal based on 50/50 custody. Presumably it would change if one of them was granted full custody.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

If the fathers chronology is correct, it looks like things started to go south when he complained to the court about her maintaining contact with the ex-con ex-boyfriend and the "revolving door" of men sleeping over. The first accusation against him came a month later.

If Barnes is not flat-out lying, he does seem to have the daughter's best interests in mind. Especially if the hospital report about the daughter being raped might be attributed to her boyfriend, rather than Barnes. I could kind of understand a young girl making accusations against her custodial parent if he was trying to stop a relationship with her boyfriend.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Thermal

If Barnes is not flat-out lying, he does seem to have the daughter's best interests in mind. Especially if the hospital report about the daughter being raped might be attributed to her boyfriend, rather than Barnes. I could kind of understand a young girl making accusations against her custodial parent if he was trying to stop a relationship with her boyfriend.

Which is why I asked before, how the **** does he know who is sleeping over at the house of the woman he slept with 15 years earlier? Why is it any of his business?

I don't find it that odd that the child wants to speak to the man she thought was her father for 1/3 of her life. I don't believe it's odd at all.

Barnes appears to be very controlling. I don't know how he gets the information but it sounds rather stalkerish to me.

[bluesjnr]

A chance to put your money where your mouths are folks....

https://www.gofundme.com/f/crysta-ab...hter-to-rapist

I'll be watching the donations flying in from this timestamp.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Warp12

So, after the father has paid years of support and helped raise the child, seemingly with her blessing for a good portion of the time, it sounds like a good time to throw the book at him for statutory rape?

All this after he had sex with someone who was misrepresenting her age, even down to a a fake ID. Sounds like this guy is the real victim, here.

Honestly, it could go either way. He may still be a manipulative monster, or she might be the one working the system to her benefit, but without question: he committed statutory rape. It's a serious felony, and not a selectively enforced one. You can't let people murder, saying "well we are all better off without the victim".

[plague311]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

A chance to put your money where your mouths are folks....

https://www.gofundme.com/f/crysta-ab...hter-to-rapist

I'll be watching the donations flying in from this timestamp.

Ah yes, "If you don't give her your money, then you aren't truly on her side".

I mean, there have been dumber "gotcha" attempts, but none that come to mind right now.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Honestly, it could go either way. He may still be a manipulative monster, or she might be the one working the system to her benefit, but without question: he committed statutory rape. It's a serious felony, and not a selectively enforced one. You can't let people murder, saying "well we are all better off without the victim".

Yeah, what she's doing really seems to be working out for her benefit. She's lost her daughter and now has to pay child support. Everything is going according to plan.

[sarge]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

It isn't? How did you determine that this case is rape?

It clearly isn’t.

The law in the jurisdiction where the crime occurred makes this ‘rape’. I see no ambiguity on that issue. Do you? I’m not asking if you believe the law is proper. I’m asking if you believe that in the jurisdiction where conception occurred, did rape happen?

I further ask if it is possible in that same jurisdiction for a male to father a child with a teen mother without committing rape?

As the answer to both questions is yes, it is not accurate to say that I’ve stated a position that universally precludes a teen father from ever having custody of his child.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

A chance to put your money where your mouths are folks....

https://www.gofundme.com/f/crysta-ab...hter-to-rapist

I'll be watching the donations flying in from this timestamp.

Complete stranger sets up a GFM and hustled up $100 Canadian out of a targeted $100,000 in 4 days. That's sad.

Until the facts are more clear, you'd be a fool to donate

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Complete stranger sets up a GFM and hustled up $100 Canadian out of a targeted $100,000 in 4 days. That's sad.

Until the facts are more clear, you'd be a fool to donate

Well, if we use the same standards that have been applied to this thread, she should be rich by week's end.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by plague311

Yeah, what she's doing really seems to be working out for her benefit. She's lost her daughter and now has to pay child support. Everything is going according to plan.

No, I mean trying to rewrite the story after the fact to regain power.

I think the truth of this one is going to land in between the two narratives.

[bluesjnr]

Originally Posted by plague311

Ah yes, "If you don't give her your money, then you aren't truly on her side".

I mean, there have been dumber "gotcha" attempts, but none that come to mind right now.

Mate, you either donate or you don't, I won't be rushing to condemn you whatever the case.

That, as can be seen in your response to this marvelous opportunity to help that I went out of my way to provide, is your schtick.

I truly could not give a ****.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by sarge

It clearly isn’t.

The law in the jurisdiction where the crime occurred makes this ‘rape’. I see no ambiguity on that issue. Do you? I’m not asking if you believe the law is proper. I’m asking if you believe that in the jurisdiction where conception occurred, did rape happen?

The law he broke doesn't use the word "rape" once. There are rape laws in that jurisdiction, but he didn't break any of them. You aren't solely relying on the law when you call him a rapist.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Well, if we use the same standards that have been applied to this thread, she should be rich by week's end.

I love these insights that you provide in these threads. None of your posts are anything other than snarky jabs at the forum and others that post in it. Makes me wonder why you bother showing up here at all.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by bluesjnr

Mate, you either donate or you don't, I won't be rushing to condemn you whatever the case.

That, as can be seen in your response to this marvelous opportunity to help that I went out of my way to provide, is your schtick.

I truly could not give a ****.

"I don't give a **** so I tracked down this link, posted it in this thread, and took a jab at people in this thread by starting the post with 'A chance to put your money where your mouth is'."

Sure, if that doesn't scream how few ***** you give then I don't know what does! Spot on! Also, my "schtick"? What exactly is my "schtick"?

She has help, though I'm sure this will cost her more in both personal time and money to go through the process. I'm not shocked she's asking for money. That doesn't mean I have to give any.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

The law he broke doesn't use the word "rape" once. There are rape laws in that jurisdiction, but he didn't break any of them. You aren't solely relying on the law when you call him a rapist.

Ironically, he relies exclusively on the law when considering whether "rape" might be too strong a term for what happened:

Originally Posted by sarge

It is reasonable that you feel that way, but as a matter of fact he is a rapist and even if she lied about her age there is no mitigation in this instance.

[ponderingturtle]

Well if there is one thing this thread has done it is remind me why coming forward is often such a poor choice for rape victims. The way people rushed to tear her down is really telling.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by plague311

Which is why I asked before, how the **** does he know who is sleeping over at the house of the woman he slept with 15 years earlier? Why is it any of his business?

He has partial custody of the kid, right? Might she be telling him about all the different men? Maybe being distraught over the instability at moms house? That would account for how he knew and why he would care.

Quote:

I don't find it that odd that the child wants to speak to the man she thought was her father for 1/3 of her life. I don't believe it's odd at all.

Agreed

Quote:

Barnes appears to be very controlling. I don't know how he gets the information but it sounds rather stalkerish to me.

Certainly could be. He could also, as strange as it sounds, trying to do the right thing by his daughter and give her the most stable of environments.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Thermal

He has partial custody of the kid, right? Might she be telling him about all the different men? Maybe being distraught over the instability at moms house? That would account for how he knew and why he would care.

Then that would make me even more confused. The judge is taking, as gospel, that men are at the house constantly from a man who is hearing it from his daughter? Why isn't the judge talking to the daughter? Why is the child talking to a state counselor if she's distraught? These are literal situations where CPS should be involved.

The daughter also doesn't seem to want to leave the mother. I don't understand why she would say that men are coming and going, knowing that the father is taking legal action.

On top of that, the mother is married now and has a 17 month old child. That means we're going back a few years where she's been with her husband. So the mother is sleeping all around, while pregnant, while engaged and getting married to a guy? Sorry, something isn't right.

Originally Posted by Thermal

Certainly could be. He could also, as strange as it sounds, trying to do the right thing by his daughter and give her the most stable of environments.

Which, if the daughter is to be believed, isn't his place considering what she's said to her school counselor and at least one hospital.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well if there is one thing this thread has done it is remind me why coming forward is often such a poor choice for rape victims. The way people rushed to tear her down is really telling.

This is a sceptic forum, not a taking people on trust forum.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well if there is one thing this thread has done it is remind me why coming forward is often such a poor choice for rape victims. The way people rushed to tear her down is really telling.

Maybe you can offer an example where this was actually the case, since this thread is not one.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Maybe you can offer an example where this was actually the case, since this thread is not one.

You seriously need examples of rape victims getting **** on by people because they don't reveal their crimes at the time it happened or they just aren't believe in general?

...Oh...OH you're doing the whole "What you're saying doesn't apply here because this woman is being treated fairly by everyone involved" thing. Gotcha. Well done.