Who is more evil?

[jsfisher]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

Science says humans are likely incidental creatures. We've evolved rapidly enough to impact an entire planet's ecosystem.

The Genesis is fiction, I don't put a lot of brain power into the how and why of the story, any more than I intellectually wrestle with the plot of the last Spiderman movie.

Many of us agree. The question is, though, how did you decide that that part of the Bible be fiction while other parts be not?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by dudalb

That is just not true.
Look at many of the mass political movements of the 20th Century. Totally faith driven without a supreme being being involved. Oh, they made a pretense of logic but in the end it was faith..Hitler...or Stalin..or Mao was an infallible leader, incapable of serious error.
Blind faith is not limited to a god belief.
I know you have it in for religion in general, but ,sheesh, you should know better.

True... but... the ones who do blind faith in anything have had their psyche made more prone to engaging in blind faith by their blind faith in their deadbeat sky daddies.

[arthwollipot]

Is all the bolding really necessary? I find it very hard to read.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

Faith in a friend? Faith in the goodness of people? Faith in one's self?

"Faith in God" is more about faith in God's goodness (when things are going bad) rather than "faith in God's existence". Evidence for God's existence historically was regarded as being provided by the evidential orderly design of the world. Design implies a designer. Plato proposed the existence of a Demiurge as the Prime Mover to set the world in motion. Yes, those are poor reasons for belief in a designer for us nowadays, but it wasn't a faith-based position. The faith comes into it when you propose a good God who does bad things.

Historically... people did not have faith in the goodness of a god... they sacrificed virgins and animals and resources to bribe the gods they sought to do whatever they wished them to do.... or they were told they were chosen servants of this god and all they had to do is be good servile servants and carry on giving their goods and services to the caste of priests of this god in order to not incur the wrath of this god.

And the gods they beseeched were not assumed to be good... they were either seen as the cause of the calamity and thus the bribes to stave off their blight... or they were thought to be able to cause a calamity to others on behalf of the giver of the bribe.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Leumas

So asking you questions about your deadbeat sky daddy and the other three deities you worship is an improper question???

Loaded Question Fallacy.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Loaded Question Fallacy.

Fallacious application of fallacies... asking apologists about their deadbeat imaginary sky daddies is not a loaded question.


For example... these questions are not loaded questions.... can you answer them???

Originally Posted by acbytesla

One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?

Originally Posted by Leumas

...

1. Do you think the advice of your ill begotten Zombified demi-god in Matthew 19:12 to be sane or moral... especially that is clearly a TRICK given that he knew what his deadbeat daddy said in Deuteronomy 23:1-2.
   
2. And what about what he admonished in Matthew 8:22 given that it is violating the purported 5th commandment in Exodus 20:12.
   
3. And why did he have so much avarice for gold and why did he bungle up his GPStar and why did he run off to hide in Egypt and never lifted a finger to stave off the extirpation of children he caused with his avarice and incompetence??
   
4. Who killed Ananias and Sapphira and why and how??
   
5. Don't you think that all this proves that he is more evil than Satan???

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by psionl0

Loaded Question Fallacy.

Here is an example of a loaded question that you made...

Originally Posted by psionl0

A world without slavery was unthinkable in the times when the biblical texts were being written. Why would an atheist expect the bible to challenge that view?

And I asked you a few questions about your question despite it being fallacious... but yet you did not answer them either....

Originally Posted by Leumas

Did the bible challenge witches and soothsayers and eating rabbits and having sex and praying to other gods etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.???

Which do you think is more apt of the bible to have "challenged" for runaway slaves in a desert... eating rabbit... a nutritious abundant source of food in a desert... or how to own and make and buy and sell humans as slaves for life???

And here is another loaded question you asked...

Originally Posted by psionl0

How can anybody judge God or the devil when no two passages in the bible agree with each other?
.....
As for all of those horror OT laws, it is not even established that God made those laws directly or just gave Moses the authority to make the laws.

But yet I answered you very clearly despite your fallacious question and assertions...

Originally Posted by Leumas

According to the Bible... yes he did and it is established in the Bible itself...

• Exodus 20:21-22 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. And YHWH said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
  
• Exodus 24:12 And YHWH said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

So despite your loaded and fallacious statements I responded to you ... why can't you do the same???

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Here is an example of a loaded question that you made...

No it isn't.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by GDon

Faith in a friend? Faith in the goodness of people? Faith in one's self?

"Faith in God" is more about faith in God's goodness (when things are going bad) rather than "faith in God's existence". Evidence for God's existence historically was regarded as being provided by the evidential orderly design of the world. Design implies a designer. Plato proposed the existence of a Demiurge as the Prime Mover to set the world in motion. Yes, those are poor reasons for belief in a designer for us nowadays, but it wasn't a faith-based position. The faith comes into it when you propose a good God who does bad things.

This is where languages fail us. Faith in its original Greek was merely a synonym for trust. But modern Christians use the word to as a reason to believe. It's not faith when it involves humanity, a friend or when it is about ourselves. .We don't use faith for those existential beliefs.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by psionl0

No it isn't.

okey dokey... as expected... a risible response...

Nevertheless... let me see if you will ever dare to answer even the simplest of questions...

Read Matthew 19:12.... now... don't you think this is an evil thing to advise all the followers of his cult do to themselves???

Note: read Deuteronomy 23:1-2 ... this proves that it is also a sordid gyp... isn't that compounding even more evil???

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Leumas

These are behaviors done by bad humans and have nothing to do with religious behavior... but religion can be used as an excuse that is more compelling than other excuses.

So no you have not defined religious behavior... you have defined how bad behavior can be rallied behind by religionists... which ... thanks for pointing out... is proof that religion is yet another human TOOL to do evil.

Yes... that is what humans do ... has nothing to do with religious faith... except that religious faith usually makes the minds of people more readily willing to be obeisant and servile and to stampede with the rest of the herd.

This is where you and I differ. I think the religious urge is something all humans share. Theism arises as an outlet for this urge, but humans can and do find other outlets. They can and do find other things to believe in. Demagogues. Philosophies. Systems of government. Celebrities. Moneymaking schemes.

People want to believe in stuff. A lot of the time they end up believing in a god. And a lot of the time, they end up believing in something else instead. And whatever they end up believing in, if they're not careful, they fall into the same trap of religious behavior. Because that's the common basis that underlies all of this: the human urge to religious practice. With all of its excesses.

There's a whole generation of atheists in North Korea right now. They've never been taught about any sky-daddy. But they have great faith and religious fervor, about juche and the Kim family. Theism didn't make them this way. The religious urge, exploited and reinforced by their rulers, encouraged them to be more and more this way.

Theism doesn't make it easier for people to act religiously. It's the other way around: The religious urge makes it easier for people to believe in gods. It also makes it easier for them to believe in all kinds of other things.

You want to fight against the scourge of theism? Fight it at its source. Fight it at the root of all religious exceess, whether expressed theistically or secularly. Fight the religious urge, in others and in yourself. In yourself first and foremost, lest you fall into the same religious trap as the people you fight against, even as you congratulate yourself for being different from them. You're not different from them. You just put your faith in a different idol.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by theprestige

This is where you and I differ. I think the religious urge is something all humans share.

Yes... much like needing to routinely sit on the dunny ...

Originally Posted by theprestige

Theism arises as an outlet for this urge, but humans can and do find other outlets.

Yes... like the dunny.

Originally Posted by theprestige

They can and do find other things to believe in. Demagogues. Philosophies. Systems of government. Celebrities. Moneymaking schemes.

Yes... but unlike your deadbeat sky daddy these things are palpable.

Originally Posted by theprestige

People want to believe in stuff. A lot of the time they end up believing in a god.

They also believe in leprechauns and pixie dust and genies.... so thanks for admitting that your deadbeat sky daddy is in the same category.

Originally Posted by theprestige

And a lot of the time, they end up believing in something else instead.

The only problem so far in your thesis is....

• you are equivocating the word belief.
• believing in palpable things albeit incorrectly is not the same as believing in fairy tales.
• belief in fairy tales is irrational
• belief in real things that stem from experience in reality is rational although it might be mistaken

Originally Posted by theprestige

And whatever they end up believing in, if they're not careful, they fall into the same trap of religious behavior. Because that's the common basis that underlies all of this: the human urge to religious practice. With all of its excesses.

And this is yet another error you are making... I think once you actually sit down and correctly define those terms... you will recognize the arrant mistake you are making.

Originally Posted by theprestige

There's a whole generation of atheists in North Korea right now. They've never been taught about any sky-daddy. But they have great faith and religious fervor, about juche and the Kim family. Theism didn't make them this way. The religious urge, exploited and reinforced by their rulers, encouraged them to be more and more this way.

I am thankful to you for this example... you are clearly admitting that your deadbeat sky daddy is akin to a despotic tyrant whose cult followers are pathetic misinformed and brainwashed dupes.... well done.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Theism doesn't make it easier for people to act religiously. It's the other way around: The religious urge makes it easier for people to believe in gods. It also makes it easier for them to believe in all kinds of other things.

Again... thanks for admitting that the religion syphilitic parasite renders its victims unable to think rationally.

Originally Posted by theprestige

You want to fight against the scourge of theism? Fight it at its source. Fight it at the root of all religious exceess, whether expressed theistically or secularly.

Again... your incessant error is to not define the words you are using ... you are equivocating so haplessly.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Fight the religious urge, in others and in yourself. In yourself first and foremost, lest you fall into the same religious trap as the people you fight against, even as you congratulate yourself for being different from them. You're not different from them. You just put your faith in a different idol.

The above assertions are an abject case of confounding equivocations.... you really need to get a dictionary and learn what words mean and also read up on the equivocation fallacy.... your entire post is a textbook example of it.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by theprestige

... You're not different from them. You just put your faith in a different idol.

Let's see if you are any different than all the other apologists... do you dare answer the OP's question

Originally Posted by acbytesla

One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.
Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?

Let me make it clearer just in case....

Who is more evil YHWH or Jesus or the Holy Casper or The Devil.... very simple ... you just tell us who do you think of these 4 gods is the most evil one.

And why you think this.

Also while you are at it... can you ever dare answer the questions in this post ... or this one... or if you find all those too daunting... at least this post.

[Cainkane1]

If I'm not mistaken God has actually killed more people than Satan.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Yes... but unlike your deadbeat sky daddy these things are palpable.

You seem to have a lot of faith in this idea that I'm a theist.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Let's see if you are any different than all the other apologists... do you dare answer the OP's question

What's in it for me if I do?

[GDon]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

This is where languages fail us. Faith in its original Greek was merely a synonym for trust. But modern Christians use the word to as a reason to believe.

As a reason to believe in... what? Believe in God?

If I started two threads here called "Why do you believe in God?" and "Why do you have faith in God?", I'd expect to see different types of answers in them, at least from theists (though I"m not discounting that perhaps some theists might see them as the same question). And that's because modern Christians don't use "faith" as a reason to believe in the existence of God.

I think you are right that it is a definition issue. The Wiki entry for 'faith' makes this point:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith

Quote:

Religious people often think of faith as confidence based on a perceived degree of warrant,[4][5] while others who are more skeptical of religion tend to think of faith as simply belief without evidence.

So perhaps it comes down to how one feels about the subject in question as to which meaning one thinks is best. Might it be that atheists are inconsistent with their definition of the word "faith" when using it for "God" and when using it for other subjects?

[GDon]

deleted

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by GDon

As a reason to believe in... what? Believe in God?

If I started two threads here called "Why do you believe in God?" and "Why do you have faith in God?", I'd expect to see different types of answers in them, at least from theists (though I"m not discounting that perhaps some theists might see them as the same question). And that's because modern Christians don't use "faith" as a reason to believe in the existence of God.

Well, ones that I talk to do.

Because the reasoning and evidence of the veracity of Christian belief is so poor, I find the last ditch defence given by Christians, is their knowledge of the existence of God/Jesus, because they just know it from experiencing an interaction with them. Faith?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

....
So perhaps it comes down to how one feels about the subject in question as to which meaning one thinks is best....

And as far as I can tell ... the subject in question is who is more Evil out of the 4 gods of Christianity... is it YHWH or Jesus or Casper... or the Devil??

So far I have not seen you answer the question of the subject in question and instead you have written lots of red herrings.... can you answer the subject's question please??

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by theprestige

You seem to have a lot of faith in this idea that I'm a theist.


What's in it for me if I do?

Well ... at least you would get to prove that my faith that all you do is apologetics for Christianity, is not true and I will change my mind.... which is not what you can say about your faith since it is unfalsifiable (being in fairy tales) and consequently an irrationality.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

If I'm not mistaken God has actually killed more people than Satan.

You mean the lesser god YHWH of the rest of the Bible... the real God (Elohim) the one in Genesis 1 who CREATED humans in his image and everything else with his word... is not the same as the lesser god YHWH who is the father of Jesus and who did not create but rather molded a mud-man and then cloned a woman out of the baculum he wrenched out of poor mud-man much later... as gardeners for his garden in which he liked to stroll during the cool of the day.

[GDon]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Well, ones that I talk to do.

Because the reasoning and evidence of the veracity of Christian belief is so poor, I find the last ditch defence given by Christians, is their knowledge of the existence of God/Jesus, because they just know it from experiencing an interaction with them. Faith?

But if their belief is based on an interaction... ?

If you said, "Okay God, if You exist, interact with me now!" Then God (apparently) interacted with you and so you believe in God, your belief isn't based on faith AFAICS. I suppose you might argue that the faith is in thinking the interaction was actually God rather than (say) a brain tumour, but then it gets to the idea of warranted belief as per the Wiki article I referenced earlier.

[GDon]

Originally Posted by Leumas

And as far as I can tell ... the subject in question is who is more Evil out of the 4 gods of Christianity... is it YHWH or Jesus or Casper... or the Devil??

So far I have not seen you answer the question of the subject in question and instead you have written lots of red herrings.... can you answer the subject's question please??

I'm not a Christian. But my answer is that God is defined as "Good" and the devil is defined as "Evil", so by definition the devil is more evil than God.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Well ... at least you would get to prove that my faith that all you do is apologetics for Christianity, is not true and I will change my mind.... which is not what you can say about your faith since it is unfalsifiable (being in fairy tales) and consequently an irrationality.

You don't seem to be offering me anything of value. Every little thing I say sends you off on some wild goose chase, reinforcing your irrational and incorrect beliefs about me. Keep beating someone with a stick for trying to have a reasonable discussion, pretty soon they're gonna stop trying. You want me to keep talking to you, I'll need to see some kind of carrot.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

But if their belief is based on an interaction... ?

If you said, "Okay God, if You exist, interact with me now!" Then God (apparently) interacted with you and so you believe in God, your belief isn't based on faith AFAICS. I suppose you might argue that the faith is in thinking the interaction was actually God rather than (say) a brain tumour, but then it gets to the idea of warranted belief as per the Wiki article I referenced earlier.

Thomas Paine:

"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum."

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by theprestige

You don't seem to be offering me anything of value. Every little thing I say sends you off on some wild goose chase, reinforcing your irrational and incorrect beliefs about me. Keep beating someone with a stick for trying to have a reasonable discussion, pretty soon they're gonna stop trying. You want me to keep talking to you, I'll need to see some kind of carrot.

surprise surprise ... no answer and you will never dare give one... tsk tsk tsk!!

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

I'm not a Christian. But my answer is that God is defined as "Good" and the devil is defined as "Evil", so by definition the devil is more evil than God.

Well... that is not what the bible says... YHWH bloviates that he is the creator of all evil (Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6)... he even brags about deceiving all deceived dupes (Ezekiel 14:9). He also admits he is a liar (2 Chronicles 18:22) and that the bible is a hoax he deliberately made up to befuddle people (Ezekiel 20:23-26).... he even boasts that he deliberately deludes people (2 Thessalonians 2:11) and that he prefers the simpletons over the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27) and that he deliberately HIDES himself from the wise and only likes the simpletons to know him (Matthew 11:25).... he brags about spreading the sword between people and setting mother against daughter and father against son (Matthew 10:34-35) and how unless one hates their closest kin and kith they are not worthy of him (Luke 14:26) and that he deliberately confuses people (Mark 4:11-13) and that he is the only way (John 14:6) and that whoever is not with him is against him ( Matthew 12:30) and those who are against him must be brought and slain under his feet (Luke 19:27)... and he curses entire cities because they did not kowtow to his hoax (Matthew 11:23-2) etc. etc. etc. of scads more BOMBASTIC bragging... Jesus throughout the New Tall tales is doing nothing but call his people who did not believe his hucksterism things like vipers (Matthew 23:33) and fools (Matthew 23:17) and threatening them with ever burning fiery pit (Matthew 18:8) where they will gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28, Matthew 13:42) and burn like cut off branches (John 15:6) and like dried up tares (Matthew 13:40). Jesus even threatens ENTIRE CITIES with destruction and mayhem (Matthew 11:20 - 25). Jesus condemns anyone who does not believe in him with eternal DAMNATION (Mark 16:16). He even calls all his own people "the sons of the devil" (John 8:44). His repugnancy reaches its crescendo when he CURSES all who did not fall for his hoax to be withered and cut down and burned like a metaphoric fruitless fig tree (Luke 13:6-9 and Matthew 21:19-20).

But... thanks for answering...

[GDon]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Well... that is not what the bible says... YHWH bloviates that he is the creator of all evil (Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6)... he even brags about deceiving all deceived dupes (Ezekiel 14:9). He also admits he is a liar (2 Chronicles 18:22) and that the bible is a hoax he deliberately made up to befuddle people (Ezekiel 20:23-26).... he even boasts that he deliberately deludes people (2 Thessalonians 2:11) and that he prefers the simpletons over the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27) and that he deliberately HIDES himself from the wise and only likes the simpletons to know him (Matthew 11:25).... he brags about spreading the sword between people and setting mother against daughter and father against son (Matthew 10:34-35) and how unless one hates their closest kin and kith they are not worthy of him (Luke 14:26) and that he deliberately confuses people (Mark 4:11-13) and that he is the only way (John 14:6) and that whoever is not with him is against him ( Matthew 12:30) and those who are against him must be brought and slain under his feet (Luke 19:27)... and he curses entire cities because they did not kowtow to his hoax (Matthew 11:23-2) etc. etc. etc. of scads more BOMBASTIC bragging... Jesus throughout the New Tall tales is doing nothing but call his people who did not believe his hucksterism things like vipers (Matthew 23:33) and fools (Matthew 23:17) and threatening them with ever burning fiery pit (Matthew 18:8) where they will gnash their teeth (Luke 13:28, Matthew 13:42) and burn like cut off branches (John 15:6) and like dried up tares (Matthew 13:40). Jesus even threatens ENTIRE CITIES with destruction and mayhem (Matthew 11:20 - 25). Jesus condemns anyone who does not believe in him with eternal DAMNATION (Mark 16:16). He even calls all his own people "the sons of the devil" (John 8:44). His repugnancy reaches its crescendo when he CURSES all who did not fall for his hoax to be withered and cut down and burned like a metaphoric fruitless fig tree (Luke 13:6-9 and Matthew 21:19-20).

Now do the Devil, so we can decide the answer to the question "Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?"

If God in the Bible has done SOME pro-active good and a lot of pro-active evil, and the Devil in the Bible has only done pro-active evil and no pro-active good, then the answer is clear.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

Now do the Devil, so we can decide the answer to the question "Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?"

The devil is hardly mentioned in the Tanakh (aka Old Tall tales) and when mentioned in either the OT or the New Tall tales (NT) he is doing nothing but obey and do the bidding and accomplish the PLANS of YHWH and his ill begotten zombified human sacrificed son.

Originally Posted by GDon

... so we can decide the answer to the question "Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?"

The answer is given right there in the bible in the very own words of YHWH himself that he is the causer of all evil... so YHWH and his ill begotten zombified human sacrificed son win concurrent first place in the evil awards hands down and given that the Holy Casper ravaged poor Mary... he gets third place... the devil is apparently just their butler.

• Proverbs 16:4 YHWH has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble
• Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things
• Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?
• Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet...
• Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
• Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
• Matthew 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
• Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Originally Posted by GDon

...
If God in the Bible has done SOME pro-active good and a lot of pro-active evil, and the Devil in the Bible has only done pro-active evil and no pro-active good, then the answer is clear.

In the bible the Devil is the creation and the servant of YHWH and his ill begotten son.... so whatever evil he is attributed is in fact their doing... so his score gets added to theirs automatically.

Originally Posted by GDon

...
... then the answer is clear.

So what is it ... your final verdict???

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

When you throw in the fact that God made the Devil it gets even more fuzzy.

Yeah, supposedly Satan was created by God to be His most perfect angel... how did that turn out? God ****** up... again!
This was just another glaring cock-up to add to Oolon Colluphid's list of God's greatest mistakes. Oh well, that about wraps it up for God!!

[GDon]

Originally Posted by Leumas

The answer is given right there in the bible in the very own words of YHWH himself that he is the causer of all evil...

There is also:

Genesis 1:31 And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.

Anything similar with regards to the Devil making anything good in the Bible? Nope.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:

The Devil deceived the whole world! God only deceived some of the world. God made everything that was good! The Devil didn't make anything that was good.

QED: the Devil is more evil.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Proverbs 16:4 YHWH has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble

"For its purpose." Leads to a greater good.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things

Leads to a greater good.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?

Leads to a greater good:

Amos 3:6 If a ram’s horn sounds in a city, do the people not tremble? If calamity comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?
7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets.…

Originally Posted by Leumas

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet...

Leads to a greater good:

Ezekiel 14:9 But if the prophet is enticed to speak a message, then it was I the LORD who enticed him, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel.
10 They will bear their punishment—the punishment of the inquirer will be the same as that of the prophet—

Originally Posted by Leumas

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

In the Greek, "hate" is used as the comparison. One should even "hate one's own life" in order to be a disciple of God. That's how important love of God is in the Bible: everything else is "hate" by comparison. See also your next example.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

It's true, in context of the full passage ending with:

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Finding God is more important than anything. This meshes with the last example you gave, about "hating one's own life". If you live life for yourself, you will lose it. If you lose your life because you live for God, you will find your life.

I'm not saying I believe this. For me, the Bible is just another ancient text book. But if you are going to use the Bible, then it needs to be addressed in its context. Not just highlighting the bits where someone dies!

Originally Posted by Leumas

Matthew 8:21-22 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

It's more important to carry out God's business than man's business. Not evil at all.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Matthew 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

"Let him receive it if he is able to receive it." God is giving a choice. Sounds pretty decent of Him! I bet the Devil wouldn't be giving a choice there. Team God for the win!

Originally Posted by Leumas

In the bible the Devil is the creation and the servant of YHWH and his ill begotten son.... so whatever evil he is attributed is in fact their doing... so his score gets added to theirs automatically.

Nope. God allows free-will, which results in a greater good. When God made everything in Genesis, it was all good. Which means Satan freely decided to be evil.

Originally Posted by Leumas

So what is it ... your final verdict???

Satan is more evil, obviously.

* Reminder: I'm not a Christian and I don't believe that the Bible is anything other than an ancient text. But if you are going to use the Bible against Christians, you need to allow for the Christian view that God does bad things so that a greater good will occur. If you can show that the God of the Bible did something bad that couldn't lead to a greater good, I'd be very interested.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

...
"For its purpose." Leads to a greater good.
Leads to a greater good.
Leads to a greater good:
...

Leads to a greater good:

In the Greek, "hate" is used as the comparison. One should even "hate one's own life" in order to be a disciple of God. That's how important love of God is in the Bible: everything else is "hate" by comparison. See also your next example.
...
Finding God is more important than anything. This meshes with the last example you gave, about "hating one's own life". If you live life for yourself, you will lose it. If you lose your life because you live for God, you will find your life.

I'm not saying I believe this. For me, the Bible is just another ancient text book. But if you are going to use the Bible, then it needs to be addressed in its context. Not just highlighting the bits where someone dies!

It's more important to carry out God's business than man's business. Not evil at all.

"Let him receive it if he is able to receive it." God is giving a choice. Sounds pretty decent of Him! I bet the Devil wouldn't be giving a choice there. Team God for the win!

Nope. God allows free-will, which results in a greater good. When God made everything in Genesis, it was all good. Which means Satan freely decided to be evil.

Satan is more evil, obviously.

* Reminder: I'm not a Christian and I don't believe that the Bible is anything other than an ancient text. But if you are going to use the Bible against Christians, you need to allow for the Christian view that God does bad things so that a greater good will occur. If you can show that the God of the Bible did something bad that couldn't lead to a greater good, I'd be very interested.

👆And that is what is called the most exquisite exposition of religious blind faith... QED!!!👆

Originally Posted by GDon

If you can show that the God of the Bible did something bad that couldn't lead to a greater good, I'd be very interested.

Have you heard of the fallacy called shifting of the burden of proof???


Now you have above a very good demonstration of what is the difference between rational belief in real things and an irrational faith in fairy tales.

QED!!!

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

There is also:

Genesis 1:31 And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.

Yup... this God (Elohim) is not the lesser god called YHWH who cannot create things but only mold out of mud or build out of a baculum...

Read Genesis 2 and 1 carefully....

Genesis 1 has a GOD who can CREATE out of nothing and with just his own words/will and in his image he created man AND woman together at the same time and gave them the mandate to be fruitful and multiply and dominate the EARTH.

Genesis 2 has a LESSER god called YHWH who can only fabricate out of existing material like mud... who FORMED a mud-man alone ... nary a mention of a woman and not whimper about in his image.... and his mandate was to be a GARDENER to take care of the garden YHWH made and enjoyed strolling through... and only MUCH LATER when mud-man was too lonely did YHWH devise the idea of wrenching his baculum to BUILD a woman as his helpmeet.... nary a mention of being fruitful or multiplying... not at all.... in fact when they realized they could do that he FIRED THEM as his gardeners and threw them out of the MANOR.

If you can read Hebrew then look up how Elohim CREATED ברא... while YHWH only FORMED יצר and BUILT בנה ...

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

...
God allows free-will, which results in a greater good.

Nope YHWH does not... as clearly stated in the Bible numerous places....

• Isaiah 14:26-27 ... For YHWH of hosts hath purposed, and who shall thwart it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
• Psalm 139:13-16 ... all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
• Proverbs 16:4 YHWH has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
• Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.
• Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?
• Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet...
• Exodus 7:3-5 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt... that I may lay my hand upon Egypt... and the Egyptians shall know that I am YHWH
• Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
• Ephesians 1:4-5 ... In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
• Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
• Romans 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...
• Romans 9:15-16 ... So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
• Romans 9:21-23 Hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had [hilite]afore prepared unto glory[hilite] ...

Have you read the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11??? They were murdered on the spot without even a chance for repentance or redress... on the spot they were dropped dead for withholding some OF THEIR OWN MONEY away from the COMMUNIST REGIME of Peter... was that not interfering with their free will to do so???

Moreover.... if your sky despot saw fit to murder immediately on the spot poor Ananias and Sapphira for not giving all their money to the communist cult of Peter, would it not be more just and more benevolent to make drop dead on the spot all the villains who ravish and abuse humanity... including The Devil???

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by GDon

There is also:

The Devil deceived the whole world! God only deceived some of the world. God made everything that was good! The Devil didn't make anything that was good.

So slowly and tortuously extirpating the entire population of Earth to the last creature including children and toddlers and sucklings... except for a drunkard and his nasty son and 6 others... is not worse than what the devil did to make them reclaim their dignity and freedom from the despot in the sky???

Which is worse.... the devil or a slave mongering ethnic cleansing human sacrifice demanding voodoo rituals prescribing witches proscribing hexed potions commanding misogynistic misanthropic racist bigoted tribalistic despot???

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Leumas

So slowly and tortuously extirpating the entire population of Earth to the last creature including children and toddlers and sucklings... except for a drunkard and his nasty son and 6 others... is not worse than what the devil did to make them reclaim their dignity and freedom from the despot in the sky???

Which is worse.... the devil or a slave mongering ethnic cleansing human sacrifice demanding voodoo rituals prescribing witches proscribing hexed potions commanding misogynistic misanthropic racist bigoted tribalistic despot???

I'm starting to suspect that you don't think very highly of God, in general.

[GDon]

Originally Posted by Leumas

��And that is what is called the most exquisite exposition of religious blind faith... QED!!!��

I agree! But not my problem.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Have you heard of the fallacy called shifting of the burden of proof???

How is expressing a Christian maxim shifting the burden of proof? Christians believe that God allows bad things to get a greater good. I'm not shifting anything as far as I can see. The maxim exists, regardless of whether you can provide examples one way or the other.

The website gives the example of shifting the burden of proof: "Angels exist unless someone proves that they do not exist." I'm saying: "Angels exist. Do you have evidence otherwise?" Very different thing to shifting the burden of proof, since I'm not trying to prove that Christians are right when they say that God allows bad things in order to achieve a greater good. I'm saying that's what Christians claim.

[GDon]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Have you read the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11??? They were murdered on the spot without even a chance for repentance or redress... on the spot they were dropped dead for withholding some OF THEIR OWN MONEY away from the COMMUNIST REGIME of Peter... was that not interfering with their free will to do so???

No, not at all. How are you defining free-will such that this is an interference of it?

Originally Posted by Leumas

Moreover.... if your sky despot saw fit to murder immediately on the spot poor Ananias and Sapphira for not giving all their money to the communist cult of Peter, would it not be more just and more benevolent to make drop dead on the spot all the villains who ravish and abuse humanity... including The Devil???

Christian Maxim time!: God allows bad things for a greater good.

[GDon]

Originally Posted by Leumas

Originally Posted by GDon

...
God allows free-will, which results in a greater good.

Nope YHWH does not... as clearly stated in the Bible numerous places....

Isaiah 14:26-27 ... For YHWH of hosts hath purposed, and who shall thwart it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

What's that to do with free-will? Are you arguing that if I can't bend God to my will, that is disallowing my free-will? That's like saying that because I flap my arms but can't fly, that is disallowing my free-will.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Psalm 139:13-16 ... all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Compatibilism answers that nicely, though obviously there are many who disagree that compatibilism is possible.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Proverbs 16:4 YHWH has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Meh, maybe. Compatibilism, probably.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.

Nothing to do with free-will.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?

Nothing to do with free-will.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet...

Nothing to do with free-will.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Exodus 7:3-5 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt... that I may lay my hand upon Egypt... and the Egyptians shall know that I am YHWH

Yes, in this particular case I agree it's possible that God voided Pharaoh's free-will for the explicit purpose of obtaining the greater good that results from God being able to multiply His signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. In which case it is that God is allowing something bad to result in a greater good. Christian maxim!

Originally Posted by Leumas

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Definitely compatibilism.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Ephesians 1:4-5 ... In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Nothing to do with free-will, since it doesn't say we have or don't have a choice. Just that we are predestined for adoption.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

Similar to the previous one. Nothing to do with free-will.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Romans 9:11-13 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Romans 9:15-16 ... So then it is not of him that willeth , nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Romans 9:21-23 Hath not the potter power over the clay , of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had [hilite]afore prepared unto glory[hilite] ...

Ditto. I don't have control in a lot of things in my life. I can't flap my arms and fly either. Nothing to do with free-will.

Perhaps we have different ideas about free-will.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by GDon

What's that to do with free-will? Are you arguing that if I can't bend God to my will, that is disallowing my free-will? That's like saying that because I flap my arms but can't fly, that is disallowing my free-will.

...snip...

Ditto. I don't have control in a lot of things in my life. I can't flap my arms and fly either. Nothing to do with free-will.

Perhaps we have different ideas about free-will.

If you are talking about a god that falls under the heading of "Christian gods" there is a strong tradition of denying freewill - as we tend to use the term -exists. People cannot not sin, some people have been predestined by god to be saved regardless of how you act, others have been predestined to suffer eternal damnation regardless of how you act - see reform christians/Calvanism