IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd July 2022, 04:38 AM   #401
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you are talking about a god that falls under the heading of "Christian gods" there is a strong tradition of denying freewill - as we tend to use the term -exists. People cannot not sin, some people have been predestined by god to be saved regardless of how you act, others have been predestined to suffer eternal damnation regardless of how you act - see reform christians/Calvanism
Fair point.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 06:30 AM   #402
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 26,662
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you are talking about a god that falls under the heading of "Christian gods" there is a strong tradition of denying freewill - as we tend to use the term -exists. People cannot not sin, some people have been predestined by god to be saved regardless of how you act, others have been predestined to suffer eternal damnation regardless of how you act - see reform christians/Calvanism
"And the LORD hardened Pharoh's heart"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 07:25 AM   #403
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
"And the LORD hardened Pharoh's heart"

To show off and brag about his powers.

And killed Ananias and Sapphira for keeping some of their own money back after giving most of it to the communist cult of Jesus.

And killed the whole world for doing what they wanted to do.

And commanded and participated in the genocide of entire peoples for doing what they wanted

And commanded the stoning to death of girls for loving their boyfriends.

And predestine and preordained and planned evil things that none could thwart.

But yet... he cannot stop the Devil like he did for the entire population of the world numerous times over.

Not to mention of course that he made the Devil and other evil in the first place... as he admitted with his own words... for the day of trouble
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 07:38 AM   #404
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Fair point.

And so your whole argument about free will is moot and invalid... right?

Additionally... if a boss tells his employees that they need to castrate themselves to keep their jobs... do you think this boss is a good guy for giving the employees a choice??

Furthermore... if a policeman watched a rape and never did anything or lift a finger to stop it not even called others to help stop it... do you think the policeman was admirable for letting the rapist have his free will??

Moreover... whom do you blame when a bridge fails and kills people?? Do you blame the engineer for bad design of the bridge... or do you the traffic on bridge??
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 2nd July 2022 at 08:54 AM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 07:42 AM   #405
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I agree! But not my problem.


How is expressing a Christian maxim shifting the burden of proof? Christians believe that God allows bad things to get a greater good. I'm not shifting anything as far as I can see. The maxim exists, regardless of whether you can provide examples one way or the other.

The website gives the example of shifting the burden of proof: "Angels exist unless someone proves that they do not exist." I'm saying: "Angels exist. Do you have evidence otherwise?" Very different thing to shifting the burden of proof, since I'm not trying to prove that Christians are right when they say that God allows bad things in order to achieve a greater good. I'm saying that's what Christians claim.

Another exquisite exposition of blind faith in fairy tales... now do you understand how faith in imaginary things is not the same as relying on trends and statistics that are gleaned out of experience in real things in reality??
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 2nd July 2022 at 08:51 AM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 08:36 AM   #406
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'm starting to suspect that you don't think very highly of God, in general.

Your deity is not God... he is a lesser god by the very admission of the Bible.
  • Deuteronomy 32:8-9 When the Most High (Elyon עליון) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the children of men, .... the portion of YHWH is his people, Jacob the lot of his inheritance.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 08:45 AM   #407
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
No, not at all. How are you defining free-will such that this is an interference of it?


Christian Maxim time!: God allows bad things for a greater good.

Free will to give one's money to whomever one wills... free will to carry on living and not be dropped dead on the spot for not giving one's money to a communist cult regime... free will to have at least the chance to pray for one's soul before being dropped dead on the spot... free will to not have to spend eternity in eternal torture for not giving all one's money to a communist regime.

Moreover... if this despot is going to drop dead people for not giving all their money to him... why does he not make drop dead all the violators and the Devil himself???


Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Christian Maxim time!: God allows bad things for a greater good.

Yes... a baseless Wishful Thinking and blind faith... and asking someone to DISPROVE it is like asking someone to disprove the unfalsifiable claim of the god in the first place let alone that he does whatever they wish him to have done.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 08:49 AM   #408
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I agree! But not my problem..

I am glad you agree... thanks...

However... it is your problem... because as evinced by your numerous posts in this thread wrangling for equivocating religious faith with relying on the trends of experienced reality... you now have a vivid exquisite example of your own making of BLIND FAITH based upon the belief in fairy tales.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 09:00 AM   #409
Warp12
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5,941
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Your deity is not God... he is a lesser god by the very admission of the Bible.
  • Deuteronomy 32:8-9 When the Most High (Elyon עליון) gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the children of men, .... the portion of YHWH is his people, Jacob the lot of his inheritance.

I don't believe in any Gods. So, to me this is all just an exercise of the imagination. "Which pretend entity is better/worse than the other". I call it a draw in reality. In the fantasy world, clearly the Devil is represented as being evil and God good. I mean, that is the overall message...so I don't see where it is ambiguous at all, or open for debate.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 09:47 AM   #410
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe in any Gods. So, to me this is all just an exercise of the imagination. "Which pretend entity is better/worse than the other". I call it a draw in reality. In the fantasy world, clearly the Devil is represented as being evil and God good. I mean, that is the overall message...so I don't see where it is ambiguous at all, or open for debate.

Yes... God (Elyon) who is the God of Genesis 1... but not YHWH the lesser god of the rest of the bible.... he is... as he admits with his own words... the most vile evil despotic ethnic cleansing slave mongering human sacrifice demanding voodoo rituals prescribing witches proscribing hexed potions commanding misogynistic misanthropic bigoted racist tyrannical benighted bronze age one tribe's deity.

Not to mention that he is the creator of all evil as he keeps boasting ... including the devil.


Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe in any Gods. So, to me this is all just an exercise of the imagination.
You surely have bamboozled me thoroughly.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 2nd July 2022 at 09:50 AM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 10:05 AM   #411
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,597
I guess it is a sign of the degenerate times we live in, that The Silmarillion is something that occasions better ready recall than the Bible. Somehow this whole thing about two Gods, and Elyon, either I've never heard of this, or if I have then I have no recollection of it. I mean, WTF, two Gods in the Bible, and Yhwh the junior partner? Like I said, what that reminded me of was Eru Iluvatar, both in terms of Elyon's function, as well as what the name roughly sounds like.

And clearly it isn't just me. Just did a Google search on Elyon, and, while that did fetch the Wiki article on "the God most high", but the link was hidden somewhere in the middle of the page, with the rest of Page 1, including the top few entries, all littered with video games and suchlike.

We do live in utterly degenerate godless times, don't we?




(Now if only we lived in times when a Google search for "Yhwh", and indeed for "God", also returned back a whole bunch of video games and stuff, with a small reference hidden there about some archaic meaning assigned to the word in times past, then that is what would be cool. Maybe one day.)
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 11:28 AM   #412
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 60,141
Some of these are weird. For example:

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
In the Greek, "hate" is used as the comparison. One should even "hate one's own life" in order to be a disciple of God. That's how important love of God is in the Bible: everything else is "hate" by comparison. See also your next example.


It's true, in context of the full passage ending with:

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Finding God is more important than anything. This meshes with the last example you gave, about "hating one's own life". If you live life for yourself, you will lose it. If you lose your life because you live for God, you will find your life.
By Leumas's logic, the American abolitionists were evil, since they were willing to set brother against brother to achieve the greater good of abolishing slavery.

Leumas also ignores stuff like this...
Quote:
I'm not saying I believe this. For me, the Bible is just another ancient text book.
... and seems to blindly assume that anyone who dissents from his interpretation of the texts must some sort of raging theist.

Just because there are raging atheists in the world, it doesn't follow that anyone who doesn't mirror that rage is therefore a fundie Christian.

This is an example of what I'm talking about when I talk about the religious urge and religious behaviors not needing a theos as their focus and inspiration. Leumas is using arguments reactions that would be at home with a hardcore Christian trying to defend their faith against rational dispute. Or at home with a secret policeman trying to manufacture a false confession from some dissident's comments, in the run-up to the poor fellow's show trial.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.

Last edited by theprestige; 2nd July 2022 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Fixed a tag to achieve the intended rhetorical effect. Better late than never!
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 11:47 AM   #413
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Some of these are weird. For example:


By Leumas's logic, the American abolitionists were evil, since they were willing to set brother against brother to achieve the greater good of abolishing slavery.
WOW... amazing distortion of morality and decency and reason....

Nope... I think the abolitionists were fighting evil people who were evil and supported by the evil your imaginary sky daddy has caused with his slave mongering ethnic cleansing racist bigoted autobiography.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...
This is an example of what I'm talking about when I talk about the religious urge and religious behaviors not needing a theos as their focus and inspiration.

Yes your post is a vivid example of the irrational distortions apologists do of all decency and reality in order to rage against the Cognitive Dissonance reality is causing them.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 12:08 PM   #414
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 60,141
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
WOW... amazing distortion of morality and decency and reason....

Nope... I think the abolitionists were fighting evil people who were evil and supported by the evil your imaginary sky daddy has caused with his slave mongering ethnic cleansing racist bigoted autobiography.





Yes your post is a vivid example of the irrational distortions apologists do of all decency and reality in order to rage against the Cognitive Dissonance reality is causing them.
You keep expressing a blind faith in my theism. Why?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 12:22 PM   #415
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I guess it is a sign of the degenerate times we live in, that The Silmarillion is something that occasions better ready recall than the Bible. Somehow this whole thing about two Gods, and Elyon, either I've never heard of this, or if I have then I have no recollection of it. I mean, WTF, two Gods in the Bible, and Yhwh the junior partner? Like I said, what that reminded me of was Eru Iluvatar, both in terms of Elyon's function, as well as what the name roughly sounds like.

And clearly it isn't just me. Just did a Google search on Elyon, and, while that did fetch the Wiki article on "the God most high", but the link was hidden somewhere in the middle of the page, with the rest of Page 1, including the top few entries, all littered with video games and suchlike.

We do live in utterly degenerate godless times, don't we?

(Now if only we lived in times when a Google search for "Yhwh", and indeed for "God", also returned back a whole bunch of video games and stuff, with a small reference hidden there about some archaic meaning assigned to the word in times past, then that is what would be cool. Maybe one day.)

In fact there are a lot more than that... YHWH himself ... in his autobiography admits it clearly and even tried to brag (falsely of course) that he is better and stronger and has a bigger staff than all the others...
  • Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
  • Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O YHWH, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
  • Exodus 18:11 Now I know that YHWH is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
  • Deuteronomy 3:24 O Lord YHWH, thou hast begun to shew thy servant thy greatness, and thy mighty hand: for what God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works, and according to thy might?
  • Deuteronomy 10:17 For YHWH your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward
  • Psalms 135:5 For I know that YHWH is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.

Even Solomon the allegedly wisest man in all "history" and one given DIVINE WISDOM as a gift directly face to face from YHWH himself... even he with all that wisdom... KNEW that Asherah and Baal and Molech and Chomesh were gods just as effective and just as worthy of worship as YHWH (his tribe's deity) and he erected temples for them right next door on the same hill as the temple he made for his daddy's deity.
  • 1 Kings 11:5-10 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth ... and after Milcom... And Solomon did that which was evil in the sight of YHWH, and went not fully after YHWH, as did David his father. Then did Solomon build a high place for Chemosh ... and for Molech the detestation of the children of Ammon... and for all his foreign wives, who offered and sacrificed unto their gods....and YHWH was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned away from YHWH, the God of Israel, who had appeared unto him twice, and had commanded him... that he should not go after other gods; but he kept not that which YHWH commanded.

Also the Queen of Heaven was the most favorite goddess for the whole of Judea and the people lamented stopping worshipping her.
  • Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods....
  • Jeremiah 44:17-18 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 2nd July 2022 at 12:37 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 12:24 PM   #416
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You keep expressing a blind faith in my theism. Why?

Because all your posts prove it.... it is not blind faith... it is proven facts as evinced by palpable actions and writings and REALITY... I think you still need to read a dictionary.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 12:45 PM   #417
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 60,141
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Because all your posts prove it.... it is not blind faith... it is proven facts as evinced by palpable actions and writings and REALITY... I think you still need to read a dictionary.
I guarantee that you are grossly misinterpreting my texts. Each misinterpretation further reinforces your erroneous belief. This false belief then serves to excuse your vitriol towards me.

You're not interested in rational discussion of biblical texts. You're just looking for excuses to make personal attacks on anyone you (falsely) believe to be a theist.

This investment in a false belief, which is then used to justify persecution, is textbook religious behavior. Or would be, if I ever got around to writing a textbook on religious behavior.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 01:21 PM   #418
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guarantee that you are grossly misinterpreting my texts. Each misinterpretation further reinforces your erroneous belief.

<snip baseless false ad hominems>.
I gave you a chance to prove me wrong... instead you proved me right yet again for the umpteenth time...

Now if you had any idea what belief based upon repeated occurrences in reality is... instead of on wishful thinking about fairy tales... you would see why my belief in your baseless irrational faith in your deadbeat sky daddy... is ... well ... amply and repeatedly justified as evinced and attested to by your posts and statements.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 01:42 PM   #419
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 60,141
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I gave you a chance to prove me wrong... instead you proved me right yet again for the umpteenth time...

Now if you had any idea what belief based upon repeated occurrences in reality is... instead of on wishful thinking about fairy tales... you would see why my belief in your baseless irrational faith in your deadbeat sky daddy... is ... well ... amply and repeatedly justified as evinced and attested to by your posts and statements.
You irrationally believe I must be a theist, because I don't dance to your tune on your command.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 02:12 PM   #420
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You irrationally believe I must be a theist, because I don't dance to your tune on your command.

No ... you do not... but that is not WHY... it is because your posts' incessant indefatigable apologetical waggling and casuistic wriggling and hermeneutical jiggling are to the tune of all the apologists and sophists trained in some of the worst seminaries around.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 2nd July 2022 at 02:14 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 02:37 PM   #421
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 60,141
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
No ... you do not... but that is not WHY... it is because your posts' incessant indefatigable apologetical waggling and casuistic wriggling and hermeneutical jiggling are to the tune of all the apologists and sophists trained in some of the worst seminaries around.
Really? Do you really believe that the claim that religious behavior and its excesses are endemic to the human condition is something taught by "some of the worst seminaries around"?

Name three of what you consider to be "the worst seminaries around" that you believe teach this curriculum. Bonus points if you can actually justify your belief with citations from their course catalog or published syllabi.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 06:27 PM   #422
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tiny town west of Brisbane.
Posts: 7,068
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, supposedly Satan was created by God to be His most perfect angel... how did that turn out? God ****** up... again!
This was just another glaring cock-up to add to Oolon Colluphid's list of God's greatest mistakes. Oh well, that about wraps it up for God!!

When I confront Christians with the fact that God made Satan perfect, and he turned less than ideal, they just shrug this off, whilst mumbling about freedom of choice. This somehow makes Satan responsible for his own imperfection.

The same response when I mention God making man perfect.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 07:29 PM   #423
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, supposedly Satan was created by God to be His most perfect angel... how did that turn out? God ****** up... again!
This was just another glaring cock-up to add to Oolon Colluphid's list of God's greatest mistakes. Oh well, that about wraps it up for God!!

One of my favorite works of art is Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy... I heard it as the original BBC radio play... I read it as a set of books ... and although I did not like the movie I still watched it... then the series they made of it on British TV was also not that good but not bad... and then I bought the series on Audible and listened to it again.

The only other thing I liked enough to read and listen to was The Foundation series by Asimov... I don't know why they never made it into a TV series???
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 07:34 PM   #424
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
When I confront Christians with the fact that God made Satan perfect, and he turned less than ideal, they just shrug this off, whilst mumbling about freedom of choice. This somehow makes Satan responsible for his own imperfection.

In the Talmud the fall of Satan is a very interesting fable... but the short of it is... if one looks at it from a different point of view... Satan's fall is only because he would not kowtow and humiliate himself to Adam as YHWH commanded all the angels to do for no reason whatsoever.

So in fact Satan is the first FREEDOM FIGHTER fighting against the gratuitous despotism and injustice and humiliation imposed upon him by the real evil in this universe... YHWH.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The same response when I mention God making man perfect.
In the Bible it never says that YHWH made Adam perfect... he made him callow and out of DIRT... and his only purpose was to be a GARDENER for YHWH's orchard.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 2nd July 2022 at 08:13 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 08:04 PM   #425
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Really? Do you really believe that the claim that religious behavior and its excesses are endemic to the human condition is something taught by "some of the worst seminaries around"?
I am sure they teach how to pretend and dissimulate and be crafty and use guile to FISH for MEN and use lies and how to be all things to all people... in order to more readily hawk for Jesus...
  • Matthew 4:19 And He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.”
  • 2 Corinthians 12:16 ....nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
  • Romans 3:7 ... God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; ...
  • Philippians 1:18 ... whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; …
  • 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.... I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might [peddle Jesus]....
  • Eusebius -- "How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived. "
  • Martin Luther -- "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Name three of what you consider to be "the worst seminaries around" that you believe teach this curriculum. Bonus points if you can actually justify your belief with citations from their course catalog or published syllabi.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 2nd July 2022 at 08:05 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2022, 08:40 PM   #426
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 30,773
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't believe in any Gods. So, to me this is all just an exercise of the imagination. "Which pretend entity is better/worse than the other". I call it a draw in reality. In the fantasy world, clearly the Devil is represented as being evil and God good. I mean, that is the overall message...so I don't see where it is ambiguous at all, or open for debate.
The Devil is represented as being evil and God is represented as good. But God drowned almost every living creature. God told Abraham to kill his own son.God told his people to kill all their neighbors except the virgins. And so on and so on. Nothing the Devil did in the Bible was anywhere near as bad.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 01:42 AM   #427
Warp12
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5,941
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The Devil is represented as being evil and God is represented as good. But God drowned almost every living creature. God told Abraham to kill his own son.God told his people to kill all their neighbors except the virgins. And so on and so on. Nothing the Devil did in the Bible was anywhere near as bad.

Well, I think they are playing the long game and counting all of the evil that is attributed to the devil on a daily basis and throughout history. In the eyes of a Christian, if a plane crashes it is the work of the devil. If there is one horribly maimed survivor, it is the work of God. And God is good!

There is no point is trying to attribute any logic to the thought process. Debating such matters with a believer is fairly pointless, imo.

Last edited by Warp12; 3rd July 2022 at 01:43 AM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 02:35 AM   #428
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, I think they are playing the long game and counting all of the evil that is attributed to the devil on a daily basis and throughout history. In the eyes of a Christian, if a plane crashes it is the work of the devil. If there is one horribly maimed survivor, it is the work of God. And God is good!
I remember a comedy skit along those lines. The winner of a sports event said "Thank you Jesus for this win!" The guy in second place said, "Well, obviously I would have won if it wasn't for Jesus stopping me!"

I've often thought that athletes should declare beforehand whether or not they were trying to get help from God. If they were, they shouldn't be allowed to play as it's a form of cheating!

Last edited by GDon; 3rd July 2022 at 03:06 AM.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 12:01 PM   #429
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I remember ...

I asked you a few questions that I would be grateful if you would answer for me please...
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
...
Additionally... if a boss tells his employees that they need to castrate themselves to keep their jobs... do you think this boss is a good guy for giving the employees a choice??

Furthermore... if a policeman watched a rape and never did anything or lift a finger to stop it not even called others to help stop it... do you think the policeman was admirable for letting the rapist have his free will??

Moreover... whom do you blame when a bridge fails and kills people?? Do you blame the engineer for bad design of the bridge... or do you the traffic on bridge??
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
...
Moreover... if this despot is going to drop dead people for not giving all their money to him... why does he not make drop dead all the violators and the Devil himself???
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 3rd July 2022 at 12:17 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 12:16 PM   #430
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, I think they are playing the long game and counting all of the evil that is attributed to the devil on a daily basis and throughout history. In the eyes of a Christian, if a plane crashes it is the work of the devil. If there is one horribly maimed survivor, it is the work of God. And God is good!
They then should add it to the score of YHWH since he is the one who planned and effected and allowed and aided and abetted and commanded it ... not to mention that he is the one who CREATED it.
  • Isaiah 14:26-27 ... For YHWH of hosts hath purposed, and who shall thwart it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?
  • Proverbs 16:4 YHWH has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
  • Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.
  • Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not done it?
  • Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I YHWH have deceived that prophet...
  • Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
...
There is no point is trying to attribute any logic to the thought process. Debating such matters with a believer is fairly pointless, imo.
No it is not pointless ... lots and lots of people say that they have become atheists or agnostics because of arguments and debates they have heard or read... people change their minds all the time after being presented with REASON.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 3rd July 2022 at 12:23 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 12:22 PM   #431
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The Devil is represented as being evil and God is represented as good. But God drowned almost every living creature. God told Abraham to kill his own son.God told his people to kill all their neighbors except the virgins. And so on and so on. Nothing the Devil did in the Bible was anywhere near as bad.

And whatever the Devil did or does is according to the PLAN of YHWH that he planned and which cannot be thwarted as he keeps bragging... and YHWH is the one who made the Devil for the day of trouble ... just as he boasts in his own autobiography...
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 12:38 PM   #432
Warp12
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5,941
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
No it is not pointless ... lots and lots of people say that they have become atheists or agnostics because of arguments and debates they have heard or read... people change their minds all the time after being presented with REASON.

I consider it pointless. Especially in a forum composed primarily of atheists.

Religion is not driven by logic. So your chances of having success with that are pretty dismal, overall.

Have fun with it, though.

Last edited by Warp12; 3rd July 2022 at 12:40 PM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 01:29 PM   #433
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I consider it pointless. Especially in a forum composed primarily of atheists.

Religion is not driven by logic. So your chances of having success with that are pretty dismal, overall.

Have fun with it, though.
You are here though... no... and debating indefatigably with atheists telling them it is pointless to debate theists... no???


Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Religion is not driven by logic. So your chances of having success with that are pretty dismal, overall.
Yes indeed... but... logic can and has and does demonstrate that it is abject nonsense for anyone who can think rationally.

And in the special cases of the religions based upon the worship of the imaginary sky friend of a mythical peripatetic Sumerian in Canaan who went about saying his half-sister-wife is his sister and receiving riches from any king who gets besotted by her "beauty"... logic demonstrates irrefragably that they are abject turpitude.


Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So your chances of having success with that are pretty dismal, overall.
A statement blatantly belied by the facts of reality as anyone can see it today.

__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 3rd July 2022 at 01:44 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 04:52 PM   #434
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I asked you a few questions that I would be grateful if you would answer for me please...
Sure. Apologies, I thought they were rhetorical.

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Additionally... if a boss tells his employees that they need to castrate themselves to keep their jobs... do you think this boss is a good guy for giving the employees a choice??
If he meant it literally, then definitely not a good guy. If he meant it metaphorically, then he might still be a good guy. How did he mean it?

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Furthermore... if a policeman watched a rape and never did anything or lift a finger to stop it not even called others to help stop it... do you think the policeman was admirable for letting the rapist have his free will??
No, definitely not admirable. Why is he not lifting a finger, according to your scenario?

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Moreover... whom do you blame when a bridge fails and kills people?? Do you blame the engineer for bad design of the bridge... or do you the traffic on bridge??
If it is bad design, then definitely the engineer. If people were taking illegal heavy loads across the bridge, then the traffic might also be to blame. What caused the bridge to collapse? Bad design or people deciding to illegally take heavy loads across the bridge?

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Moreover... if this despot is going to drop dead people for not giving all their money to him... why does he not make drop dead all the violators and the Devil himself???
I don't know. What's the correct answer?

My questions above are non-rhetorical also.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 07:59 PM   #435
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,269
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
No it is not pointless ... lots and lots of people say that they have become atheists or agnostics because of arguments and debates they have heard or read... people change their minds all the time after being presented with REASON.
The problem is that you are not presenting anybody with "REASON".

You decided that God is evil THEN you hunted out passages in the bible that confirm your prejudged conclusion. There are plenty of passages in the bible that directly contradict the ones you cherry picked but they don't count - because "REASON".
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 08:14 PM   #436
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
If he meant it literally, then definitely not a good guy. If he meant it metaphorically, then he might still be a good guy. How did he mean it?
How can meaning it not literally make him still a good guy... especially when he actually witnessed numerous people do in fact castrate themselves and he never told them to refrain... especially also knowing that the company has a rule against employing castrates.


Originally Posted by GDon View Post
No, definitely not admirable. Why is he not lifting a finger, according to your scenario?
Because he did not want to interfere with the free will of the rapist... is that an excuse that would make you acquit him if you were a juror on his trial???


Originally Posted by GDon View Post
If it is bad design, then definitely the engineer. If people were taking illegal heavy loads across the bridge, then the traffic might also be to blame. What caused the bridge to collapse? Bad design or people deciding to illegally take heavy loads across the bridge?
Bad design... so you agree then that the designer is an incompetent bungler and that having known the design is bad and that the bridge would sooner or later collapse and not having done anything to remedy his mistakes is an egregious evil??


Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I don't know. What's the correct answer?
The correct answer is that this despot along with his Zombified human sacrificed demi-god ill begotten son are an evil ethnic cleansing slave mongering human sacrifice demanding voodoo rituals prescribing witches proscribing hexed potions commanding misogynistic misanthropic bigoted racist benighted bronze age tribal myth.

Do you disagree with any of those adjectives???
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 08:25 PM   #437
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The problem is that you are not presenting anybody with "REASON".
Yes I did... I presented people with the words of your deadbeat sky daddy... and any person who is living in 2022 and can think rationally and is decent and moral can see the reason he is evil.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You decided that God is evil THEN you hunted out passages in the bible that confirm your prejudged conclusion.
Nope... that is exactly what apologists for your deadbeat sky daddy do... they are the ones who cherry pick the bible for stuff to support their BLIND FAITH.

But thanks for clearly admitting that the bible is rife with PROOF that your deadbeat sky daddy is evil... QED!!!


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There are plenty of passages in the bible that directly contradict the ones you cherry picked but they don't count - because "REASON".
Yes.... indeed.... which to any rational person is proof that the bible is a misleading misguiding confusing confounding pile of abject claptrap... and that is in itself a turpitudinous EVIL... thanks for admitting it... QED!!!
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 3rd July 2022 at 08:32 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 08:34 PM   #438
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 30,773
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I consider it pointless. Especially in a forum composed primarily of atheists.

Religion is not driven by logic. So your chances of having success with that are pretty dismal, overall.

Have fun with it, though.
You're mistaken Warp. Almost everyone uses logic. Including Christians. That logic is not on their side makes a lot of them question their religion. Maybe not you.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 08:45 PM   #439
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,418
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're mistaken Warp. Almost everyone uses logic. Including Christians. That logic is not on their side makes a lot of them question their religion. Maybe not you.
Your logic can be flawless, but if you start from a faulty premise, you will draw faulty conclusions.
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2022, 09:42 PM   #440
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 30,773
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Your logic can be flawless, but if you start from a faulty premise, you will draw faulty conclusions.
True. But a sound logical argument requires premises that are true.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:35 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.