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Old 25th June 2022, 12:11 AM   #281
Leumas
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
...but on the other hand they argue that it is scientifically impossible...
No they do not say that .... Strawmanning is not going to earn your apologetics any credit...


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you want to get away from this derail then the original question posed in the OP is "Who is more evil, God or the Devil?". No mention of poly gods.

As it turned out, there was a very specific kind of god being described but the definition of the devil was left more open so the question as posed is unanswerable.

Another strawmanning attempt...

The OP is asking christians...

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?
So it is the christian "god" which is THREE... and then the devil which as christianity describes him is ... albeit a lesser god ... a god in the christian pantheon of 4 main gods ... not to mention the angels and demons and all sorts of other things in this pantheon.

So ... do you think your Jesus who advised his worshipers to do to themselves the stuff he said in Matthew 19:12 ... or to their parents the stuff in Matthew 8:22 ... is more or less evil than your 4th god???

And while you are at it... can you tell me which of your numerous gods killed Ananias and Sapphira ... and why... and how???
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Old 25th June 2022, 12:29 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
No they do not say that .... Strawmanning is not going to earn your apologetics any credit...
AFAIK only the RCC teaches about a "Trinity" and even then they they confusingly describe it as three gods in one. Very few sects describe the devil as a god.

Your attempts to focus on this irrelevant aspect puts you at odds with the OP who didn't attempt to include poly-gods in any way.
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Old 25th June 2022, 12:47 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Your attempts to focus on this irrelevant aspect puts you at odds with the OP who didn't attempt to include poly-gods in any way.
Hahaha... oblivious self-projection is the ubiquitous predilection of your ilk of apologists...

Answer the questions I posed to you and stop wafting red herrings please.
  1. Do you think the advice of your ill begotten Zombified demi-god in Matthew 19:12 to be sane or moral... especially that is clearly a TRICK given that he knew what his deadbeat daddy said in Deuteronomy 23:1-2.
  2. And what about what he admonished in Matthew 8:22 given that it is violating the purported 5th commandment in Exodus 20:12.
  3. And why did he have so much avarice for gold and why did he bungle up his GPStar and why did he run off to hide in Egypt and never lifted a finger to stave off the extirpation of children he caused with his avarice and incompetence??
  4. Who killed Ananias and Sapphira and why and how??
  5. Don't you think that all this proves that he is more evil than Satan???
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Old 25th June 2022, 12:59 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Do you think the advice of your ill begotten Zombified demi-god in Matthew 19:12 to be sane or moral... especially that is clearly a TRICK given that he knew what his deadbeat daddy said in Deuteronomy 23:1-2.
Who says that this is my "ill begotten Zombified demi-god" and what does being a eunuch have to do with the price of beer?

This is just pure quote mining.
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Old 25th June 2022, 01:51 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Who says that this is my "ill begotten Zombified demi-god"

Hahaha... you do... are you going to deny it???


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is just pure quote mining.
It is called PROOF (do you have any idea what this word means or entails??) from the horse's mouth that your 2nd god is more evil than your 4th god... as an answer to the OP's question

And ... your obfuscation and wriggling to avoid answering the questions is typical of your ilk of casuist for your pantheon of gods.
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Old 25th June 2022, 02:09 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And ... your obfuscation and wriggling to avoid answering the questions is typical of your ilk of casuist for your pantheon of gods.
This crude attempt to ad hominemize my arguments is pathetically weak.

One doesn't have to worship an "ill begotten Zombified demi-god" to point out how stupid some of the atheistic arguments are.
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Old 25th June 2022, 02:38 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sorry, but you're wrong. It's an incontrovertible fact that any and all beliefs based on faith are equally unbelievable.
Repeating your opinion doesn't make it any less an opinion.
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Old 25th June 2022, 02:40 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
You need to get outside more often.


Get out more, where? Out into US churches do you mean, i.e. to learn more about what US Christians of countless different varieties say now in the 21st century about how they "interpret" what was written 2000 to 3000 years ago about how their God created everything? ...

... you mean I need to get out more amongst those people to hear what they say about what they think their holy books should really mean?

Nope... LoL.



I didn't write the book. I just read it.

I don't think anyone here thought that you wrote the bible!


And Genesis never said why God made man, just that God did. The part about making man in his image has been open to interpretation pretty much since the guy who wrote it died.


Did it say why he made the universe? Or, why he made animals and planet Earth? I think it's obvious that the biblical writing, and indeed Christian beliefs were, and still are, that the creation of Mankind was the entire purpose ... that's why the heavens and the Earth were created (as a place for Man to live).



Who was this guy that wrote and then died after writing whatever you say he wrote? Below is the very first link that pops up with the simplest Google search, it lists what it says are "100 bible verses about being created in Gods image" (very quick to read, just a list of one line quotes from the bible) -

https://www.openbible.info/topics/created_in_gods_image




As opposed to the creation of what? Animals don't write, but I suspect that if they did their creation stories would put them at the center of the plot.

You seem to be merely saying that God did not say anything because he does not exist, and that mere mortal men wrote the stories of Mans creation in books like Genesis ... well you are on an atheist sceptic site, so you certainly do not need to tell me or anyone here that God did not do any of this LoL!



Science says humans are likely incidental creatures. We've evolved rapidly enough to impact an entire planet's ecosystem.

Well, since I spent about 20 years working in theoretical physics research, you do need to bother telling me what science says!


The Genesis is fiction, I don't put a lot of brain power into the how and why of the story, any more than I intellectually wrestle with the plot of the last Spiderman movie.

Genesis is fiction you say? Wow ... how amazed we must all now be to learn that. When did you discover that, was it last week or the week before? ... was there a time in your life when you did believe such biblical sources?


God really isn't.

If you read Genesis, God's always absent. All the major developments occur when God wanders back and says WTF is going on now? Genesis is a unique view into human thinking about God. It begins with God out in the cosmos, tossing fireballs, and dropping in on earth every once in a while, to a God that's everywhere at once. The Bible reveals a lot about the people who wrote it and the times they live in.


God himself (who does not exist), did not write any of the OT ... that may be news to you, but everyone else here knows that! What we are talking about is what theists believed from their holy books. What they believed about the story of how God created everything



To paraphrase Pope John Paul II, Genesis wasn't meant to be a scientific explanation of how the earth and man was created, just that God was at the center of it.

People really overthink this stuff.
Pope J. Paul-II was in power from 1978 until 2005, he was living in this era of modern science. He knew very well that everything discovered and explained by science was/is incompatible with with biblical beliefs about God and divine creation. When Popes, Archbishops and the rest say things like that, they are simply trying to discourage the faithful from looking too closely at the science and thereby realising that the religious accounts, such as divine creation, are untrue fiction.

And it does not take any “overthinking” to understand that!
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Old 25th June 2022, 02:58 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
.....
One doesn't have to worship an "ill begotten Zombified demi-god" to point out how stupid some of the atheistic arguments are.
And.... you still have not dared to answer the questions.... and you continue with your obfuscation and red herrings to hoodwink from the fact that you have not yet answered any of the questions relating to the OP's topic.... which is exactly the chicanery deployed by your ilk of casuists for your cult.... thanks for continuing to prove me right.
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Old 25th June 2022, 03:20 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And.... you still have not dared to answer the questions.... and you continue with your obfuscation and red herrings to hoodwink from the fact that you have not yet answered any of the questions relating to the OP's topic.... which is exactly the chicanery deployed by your ilk of casuists for your cult.... thanks for continuing to prove me right.
Don't you get it? You've been busted! Your ad hominems have no effect now.
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Old 25th June 2022, 07:00 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Repeating your opinion doesn't make it any less an opinion.
No, it doesn't. That said, faith does not lead to truth. If you must rely on faith, your foundation for belief is quicksand.

No one says they believe in anything because of faith other than a god belief.
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Old 25th June 2022, 07:11 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, it doesn't. That said, faith does not lead to truth. If you must rely on faith, your foundation for belief is quicksand.

.
That's the thing about the Bible. Always a good source of metaphors.
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Old 25th June 2022, 07:20 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
That's the thing about the Bible. Always a good source of metaphors.
I agree. Although I'm not sure how that point addresses my point. Psion seems to be arguing that faith is justified.
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Old 25th June 2022, 07:21 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No one says they believe in anything because of faith other than a god belief.
Sure they do. People believe in things on faith, other than gods, all the time. Aliens, for example. The Singularity, for another. The eventuality of Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat, for yet a third.

Millions have been subjugated by the secular state religion of Soviet Communism. This religion had no theos, but it had scriptures, and prophets, and heresies, and inquisitors, and autos-da-fe, and faith in a better tomorrow brought about by the good works of true believers.

People have faith in things other than gods all the time. Hell, you're doing it right now, when you say you believe, without evidence, that no one has faith in anything other than gods. You couldn't possibly know this to be true, but you believe it's true anyway.
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Old 25th June 2022, 07:46 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Don't you get it? You've been busted! Your ad hominems have no effect now.
Hahahaha.... you will never DARE to answer the questions.... hahaha.
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Old 25th June 2022, 08:00 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure they do. People believe in things on faith, other than gods, all the time. Aliens, for example. The Singularity, for another. The eventuality of Marx's dictatorship of the proletariat, for yet a third.

Millions have been subjugated by the secular state religion of Soviet Communism. This religion had no theos, but it had scriptures, and prophets, and heresies, and inquisitors, and autos-da-fe, and faith in a better tomorrow brought about by the good works of true believers.

People have faith in things other than gods all the time. Hell, you're doing it right now, when you say you believe, without evidence, that no one has faith in anything other than gods. You couldn't possibly know this to be true, but you believe it's true anyway.
Totally false.

People often have poor reasoning for their beliefs. On that I agree. But they never identify faith as the reason for that belief. And when I say never, I'm not saying there isn't outliers.

And I'm not using faith. It's called logic and repeated history. It's not faith that makes me believe that an object will fall. It's also not faith that I don't observe people using faith as rational for other beliefs.
They just don't do it.

Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have a good reason.
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Old 25th June 2022, 08:15 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Totally false.

People often have poor reasoning for their beliefs. On that I agree. But they never identify faith as the reason for that belief. And when I say never, I'm not saying there isn't outliers.
If you're making the very narrow point that people don't generally use the f-word to describe their secular beliefs, sure.

Quote:
And I'm not using faith. It's called logic and repeated history. It's not faith that makes me believe that an object will fall. It's also not faith that I don't observe people using faith as rational for other beliefs.
They just don't do it.
Wrong. They do it all the time, even if they don't realize they're doing it. Even if you don't realize they're doing it. I've given several examples.

Quote:
Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have a good reason.
It's an excuse, sure. And I'll grant that people who have adopted some kind of secular religion generally don't use the f-word to describe the basis of their beliefs. But their beliefs are nevertheless faith-based.

It doesn't matter whether they use the f-word or not, when the practical result is effectively religious.
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Old 25th June 2022, 08:31 AM   #298
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Old 25th June 2022, 08:32 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wrong. They do it all the time, even if they don't realize they're doing it. Even if you don't realize they're doing it. I've given several examples.


It's an excuse, sure. And I'll grant that people who have adopted some kind of secular religion generally don't use the f-word to describe the basis of their beliefs. But their beliefs are nevertheless faith-based.

It doesn't matter whether they use the f-word or not, when the practical result is effectively religious.
One of your examples:

Quote:
Millions have been subjugated by the secular state religion experiment of Soviet Communism. This religion had no theos, but it had scriptures, and prophets, and heresies, and inquisitors, and autos-da-fe, and faith in a better tomorrow brought about by the good works of true believers.
In the grand scheme of things it was tried, deemed to be a failure, at least by a big enough chunk of the populace, and abandoned. I don't think traditional religions have been as introspective. "Faith" may be too strong of a word to describe your examples.
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Old 25th June 2022, 08:47 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you're making the very narrow point that people don't generally use the f-word to describe their secular beliefs, sure.
It's an important distinction. Christians rely on faith. They do not.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wrong. They do it all the time, even if they don't realize they're doing it. Even if you don't realize they're doing it. I've given several examples.
You're wrong. It's not faith.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's an excuse, sure. And I'll grant that people who have adopted some kind of secular religion generally don't use the f-word to describe the basis of their beliefs. But their beliefs are nevertheless faith-based.
No, they're not. I tentatively believe in scientific findings whether I understand them or not not because of faith but because science is the single most reliable method of obtaining knowledge.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It doesn't matter whether they use the f-word or not, when the practical result is effectively religious.
Secular is not a religion. It is the opposite of religion. Your false equivalence does not work.
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Old 25th June 2022, 09:28 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you're making the very narrow point that people don't generally use the f-word to describe their secular beliefs, sure.


Wrong. They do it all the time, even if they don't realize they're doing it. Even if you don't realize they're doing it. I've given several examples.


It's an excuse, sure. And I'll grant that people who have adopted some kind of secular religion generally don't use the f-word to describe the basis of their beliefs. But their beliefs are nevertheless faith-based.

It doesn't matter whether they use the f-word or not, when the practical result is effectively religious.

Define "faith"... you are equivocating so badly... I wonder what you are saying.... can you define what you mean by that word???

Also the same for "religion"... your equivocation there is even more egregious.
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Old 25th June 2022, 09:34 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I...

It doesn't matter whether they use the f-word or not, when the practical result is effectively religious.

Although.... do carry on.... I appreciate all your efforts into making the "faith" in your sky daddy of the same quality as my "faith" that when I sit on a dunny that I will be relieved of my burdens.... and that this ritual is the same as your rituals in your dunnies churches.
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Old 25th June 2022, 10:28 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Define "faith"... you are equivocating so badly... I wonder what you are saying.... can you define what you mean by that word???

Also the same for "religion"... your equivocation there is even more egregious.
There is a constant sophistry that christians practice with words in an attempt to rationalize their beliefs. I know, because I did the exact same thing when I was a christian.

Non-religious beliefs are not on the same footing as religious beliefs.
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Old 25th June 2022, 10:44 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There is a constant sophistry that christians practice with words in an attempt to rationalize their beliefs. I know, because I did the exact same thing when I was a christian.

ALLLLLL the time in every possible way ... and when they cannot get away with it they resort to screeching "out of context!!!" ... and when that does not work they start squealing "translation!!!" ... and when that does not work they begin shrieking "paleo-cultural understanding"... etc. etc. etc.


Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Non-religious beliefs are not on the same footing as religious beliefs.
Of course not... because non-religious beliefs are based on expectations IN reality while the religious ones are based on expectations OUTSIDE reality.

But the religious want to equivocate and befuddle so as to hoodwink that their unfalsifiable unfounded unrealistic wishful-thinking (i.e. their gullibility) is the same as realistic expectations based on experiences of reality.
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Old 25th June 2022, 05:54 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post

Faith is the excuse people give when they don't have a good reason.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, whilst drawing on my extensive experience, of discussions with the religious. Further to this I get told they obtain their knowledge of Truth (with a capital T) from their relationship with God/Jesus.

No matter how much Biblical absurdity you draw their attention too, there is always this, that they fall back on.
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Old 25th June 2022, 06:20 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I wholeheartedly agree with this, whilst drawing on my extensive experience, of discussions with the religious. Further to this I get told they obtain their knowledge of Truth (with a capital T) from their relationship with God/Jesus.

No matter how much Biblical absurdity you draw their attention too, there is always this, that they fall back on.
I know. Boy do I know.
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Old 25th June 2022, 08:07 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Psion seems to be arguing that faith is justified.
It is no wonder that you would misrepresent my position like this. You seem to have gotten it into your head that only a religious fundy would question a single word that you post.

If you read my actual posts you would find that I said, "It is just a logical conclusion that if you want more than just a temporary existence then faith is all you have".

Again, in post #271 I pointed out that faith makes some people feel good. (If it does then why not?)

I don't know why you would argue against either of these claims - which is probably why you didn't.
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Old 25th June 2022, 09:05 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It is no wonder that you would misrepresent my position like this. You seem to have gotten it into your head that only a religious fundy would question a single word that you post.

If you read my actual posts you would find that I said, "It is just a logical conclusion that if you want more than just a temporary existence then faith is all you have".

Again, in post #271 I pointed out that faith makes some people feel good. (If it does then why not?)

I don't know why you would argue against either of these claims - which is probably why you didn't.
If I misunderstood your position. I apologize.

It certainly seemed as if you were arguing that the desire for eternal life justified belief in an unfalsifiable imaginary being that promised eternal life in exchange for your mental faculties.
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Old 25th June 2022, 09:16 PM   #309
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I live in a area, entire country, of religious types from casual believers that never questioned anything from early on to downright fundy cults roaming the streets. All loosely based on catholic churches somehow. Each group and individual will vary some.

Even my wife and her siblings believe something. I have met and gotten to know exactly two admitted atheist types in person. They don't discuss or debate religion with anyone.
I don't either in person. It's just a matter that will make them avoid me in other matters that are important. Like business stuff.

The key thing is each KNOWS his beliefs are the most correct but will not openly criticize others that are close enough.
They question nothing. Preacher says it, it's in the bible it must be true. God was powerful enough to create an entire world in six days but somehow needs our 10% tithe or he suffers? He can't whip up all the measly coins he will ever need by himself?
Don't question that, hell, don't even bother considering it.
Preacher says tithe or salvation is in danger.

You can't defeat unthinking masses easily. It's not worth the effort here.
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Old 25th June 2022, 10:50 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
If I misunderstood your position. I apologize.

It certainly seemed as if you were arguing that the desire for eternal life justified belief in an unfalsifiable imaginary being that promised eternal life in exchange for your mental faculties.
Apology accepted. I understand that religion can be an emotional topic even for atheists (especially the ex-religious). More than any other topic, it invites the reader to question the arguer rather than the argument.

As for the justifiability of faith, well the faithful certainly believe it is justified. You could argue that they are "throwing their lives away" but it is their life to throw away and you can't know that they would get more satisfaction from other non religious pursuits.
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Old 25th June 2022, 11:17 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Apology accepted. I understand that religion can be an emotional topic even for atheists (especially the ex-religious). More than any other topic, it invites the reader to question the arguer rather than the argument.

As for the justifiability of faith, well the faithful certainly believe it is justified. You could argue that they are "throwing their lives away" but it is their life to throw away and you can't know that they would get more satisfaction from other non religious pursuits.
That's fine if that was all they did. They proselytize. They dismiss science. They promote laws that restrict the liberties of others. They promote discrimination against others.

I wouldn't give a damn if their beliefs were benign.
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Old 26th June 2022, 02:15 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That's fine if that was all they did. They proselytize. They dismiss science. They promote laws that restrict the liberties of others. They promote discrimination against others.

I wouldn't give a damn if their beliefs were benign.
Are you proposing anything more extreme than education to deal with these issues?
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Old 26th June 2022, 05:53 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you proposing anything more extreme than education to deal with these issues?
I have no idea what you're saying. I just want the government to enforce the establishment clause.

Take God We Trust off money. No funding for religious schools
No.tax exemptions for churches. No legislation anywhere in the country that provides preference to anyone's religion.
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Old 26th June 2022, 07:55 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have no idea what you're saying. I just want the government to enforce the establishment clause.

Take God We Trust off money. No funding for religious schools
No.tax exemptions for churches. No legislation anywhere in the country that provides preference to anyone's religion.
I have no objection to any of that but I presume that you know that these measures won't address the issues you raised.
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Old 26th June 2022, 08:09 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It's an important distinction. Christians rely on faith. They do not.
They absolutely do.

Quote:
You're wrong. It's not faith.
It absolutely is.

Quote:
No, they're not. I tentatively believe in scientific findings whether I understand them or not not because of faith but because science is the single most reliable method of obtaining knowledge.
There are things people believe in that science says nothing about. The workers' paradise prophesied by Marx, for example.

Quote:
Secular is not a religion. It is the opposite of religion. Your false equivalence does not work.
The behaviors and failure modes of religion do not require a theos. People can and do believe in non-theistic dogmas all the time, and end up doing all the things religions do.
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Old 26th June 2022, 08:10 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Non-religious beliefs are not on the same footing as religious beliefs.
Religious behaviors are religious behaviors, whether or not the object of worship and blind faith is a theos.
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Old 26th June 2022, 10:44 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They absolutely do.
It absolutely is.
You can call these things the equivalent of faith all day, but that doesn’t make it so.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are things people believe in that science says nothing about. The workers' paradise prophesied by Marx, for example.
That people were willing to try Marxist ideas after the abuses of capitalism and feudalism is not faith.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The behaviors and failure modes of religion do not require a theos. People can and do believe in non-theistic dogmas all the time, and end up doing all the things religions do.
You mean Trump supporters? You're probably right. People often are willing to ignore reality for some flavor of indoctrination.

But this reinforces my point. Faith is awful. It should not be venerated. It should be discouraged and be replaced with healthy skepticism.
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Old 26th June 2022, 10:47 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have no objection to any of that but I presume that you know that these measures won't address the issues you raised.
Sure they will. Churches will fail without the help from government. Their influence will be diminished.
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Old 26th June 2022, 11:58 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sure they will. Churches will fail without the help from government. Their influence will be diminished.
Nah, they'll still be able to rook the believers.

Mind you, there'll probably a lot more pastors (or whatever they call themselves) up on tax evasion charges...
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Old 26th June 2022, 12:09 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sure they will. Churches will fail without the help from government. Their influence will be diminished.

Too late... the government is now the church... while we were too busy wrangling about whether or not atheists should combat theists and to what extent... they have been insidiously usurping power and installing agents in all the governmental apparatuses... as has now been blatantly revealed.


And I have been warning against this for years

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
...

While we are busy fending off allegations of being "scary nasty mentally damaged totalitarian fundamentalist atheists" hurled at us by Concern Trolls, this stuff is going on:
Vision America's Rick Scarborough was a guest on Gordon Klingenschmitt's "Pray In Jesus Name" program recently, where he explained that God is blessing the state of Texas because "Christians have infiltrated" and taken over the state GOP. Scarborough was discussing his efforts to mobilize right-wing pastors to get involved in politics across the nation and noting that he has had a great deal of success in Texas; so much so that if one now attends an annual Republican Party convention in Texas, it feels as if one is attending a revival meeting.
It is not astrologists nor atheists who are trying to enforce their world view wherever they can.

It is not astrologists nor atheists who are insidiously trying to dominate the "seven mountains of power" and take over the country.

While we argue on forums whether it is insane to debate theists on internet forums, theists are pressing on quietly with their strategic plans.

From Here
The George Grant quote cited below comes from a book he published in 1987 with Dominion Press, entitled The Changing of the Guard. Yes, they have been aiming for this for a very long time. And for a very long time they have worked under the cover of our ignorance. Who could have predicted a few nut cases could ever acquire such influence in our politics and our military? (No apologies to Condoleeza Rice).
"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ-to have dominion in the civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.
But it is dominion that we are after. Not just a voice.

It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.

It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.

It is dominion we are after.

World conquest. That’s what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less.

If Jesus Christ is indeed Lord, as the Bible says, and if our commission is to bring the land into subjection to His Lordship, as the Bible says, then all our activities, all our witnessing, all our preaching, all our craftsmanship, all our stewardship, and all our political action will aim at nothing short of that sacred purpose.

Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land – of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ. It is to reinstitute the authority of God’s Word as supreme over all judgments, over all legislation, over all declarations, constitutions, and confederations."
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