IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th June 2022, 12:35 PM   #321
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Religious behaviors are religious behaviors, whether or not the object of worship and blind faith is a theos.

And you adamantly avoid defining what that is.... until you do so, your statement is a risible piffle.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 12:45 PM   #322
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...

It [faith] absolutely is.

Again... you still have not defined what that word means... I doubt you will ever do so... until you do, your adamant assertions about what you have no idea the definition of ... is ... to say the least... hoggwash.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...

There are things people believe in that science says nothing about. The workers' paradise prophesied by Marx, for example.

from this prattle it is evident that you have never even looked at what Marx wrote let alone read it.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
...

The behaviors and failure modes of religion do not require a theos. People can and do believe in non-theistic dogmas all the time, and end up doing all the things religions do.

Until you list and define what these things are ... your assertions are risible nonsense.


Nevertheless... please do carry on declaring that religions and faiths in gods are nothing more than human failings just like all the other human failings ... you are at least on the right track there.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 01:04 PM   #323
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I have no objection to any of that but I presume that you know that these measures won't address the issues you raised.

How do you know that??? Until you have tried them... which your ilk are terrified to let happen... and that is why all the wrangling and CONCERN TROLLING and fly trapping in order to try to stave off these measures from ever being implemented.

It is not wise to take advice on anything from people whose hero is one who pretends to be all things to all people (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) in order to become a wily fisher of men (Matthew 4:19) and uses crafty guile to catch people (2 Corinthians 12:16).
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 26th June 2022 at 01:07 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 02:00 PM   #324
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
...

As for the justifiability of faith, well the faithful certainly believe it is justified. You could argue that they are "throwing their lives away" but it is their life to throw away and you can't know that they would get more satisfaction from other non religious pursuits.

And whether actively or passively... they are causing the lives of countless others to also be "thrown away"... as evinced by HISTORY ... and by the current calamities going on right now... and not just to their fellow citizens but more so to people around the globe.... not to mention the future lives of people around the globe.


Quote:
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
There are three ways one can do harm
  • Directly by doing an action that harms
  • Indirectly
    • Actively - By aiding or facilitating another person to do harm
    • Passively – By standing by and doing nothing to stop a harm

...all church goers are doing the indirect part.

By giving money to the church he is facilitating it. By supporting it and not speaking out against any actions he is passively doing harm.

One instance of such indirect harm is by supporting the Church’s political view. Despite the fact that Churches are not supposed to disseminate or advocate any political party…they do. So by tacitly supporting a religious mountebanks to become a president or governor or congressman or senator or even mayor he is causing harm on local and Global scales.

By paying the tithe or more to the Church he is helping to give it power that translates into influence. This enables the church to make life hell for women who want to have control over their bodies or adult homosexuals who want to live in peace with their lovers. Bringing power to bear in order to thwart any research (e.g. stem cell) becomes much easier for moneyed and powerful organizations that work actively to undermine science.

When these churches have their way like what happened in Pennsylvania it results in harm in countless ways by hindering proper scientific education.

I call all this the Petri Dish Effect.

The matrix in a Petri Dish is not harmful…it is a sugary sweet medium upon which the bacteria feed. This bacteria is then free to turn virulent and thrive.

By hoping for and actively working towards precipitating the second coming he is basically hoping and working for the destruction of the world. Ask him for instance to find out how much money his church sends to Israel. Much of this money goes towards funding the fundamentalist settlements in Israel. This in turn creates more strive and perpetuates the enmity and hatred. Which in turn eventually causes death and misery if not global war (which is what they are hoping for).
...
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 26th June 2022 at 02:05 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 07:27 PM   #325
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,363
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
The reason why I put Man with a capital "M" is to mean "Mankind", ie humans (and you should have noticed that as very obvious in the previous posts where I repeatedly said that I am talking about "humans" (ie human Apes) ...
Yeah. I know. How 19th Century of you.

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Too late... the government is now the church... while we were too busy wrangling about whether or not atheists should combat theists and to what extent... they have been insidiously usurping power and installing agents in all the governmental apparatuses... as has now been blatantly revealed.
And Psionl0 wonders why I bang on about dominionism all the time.
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 08:35 PM   #326
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,597
Petri dish effect. That's nicely formulated, Leumas, and very aptly put to use in your argument. Cool.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:23 PM   #327
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Sure they will. Churches will fail without the help from government. Their influence will be diminished.

The issues you raised:
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
They proselytize. They dismiss science. They promote laws that restrict the liberties of others. They promote discrimination against others.

Your proposed remedy:
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Take God We Trust off money. No funding for religious schools
No.tax exemptions for churches. No legislation anywhere in the country that provides preference to anyone's religion.

I'm not seeing how that would bankrupt the churches or otherwise cause them to fail. At most, it might decrease their lobbying power.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:28 PM   #328
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Petri dish effect. That's nicely formulated, Leumas, and very aptly put to use in your argument. Cool.



Have been saying it for years and years ... and of course the usual Concern Trolls wrangle with all they can muster to pull the wool over it
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:29 PM   #329
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And Psionl0 wonders why I bang on about dominionism all the time.

I have been doing that for years and years and he and his ilk around here deployed back then the very same Concern Trolling they are doing now.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 26th June 2022 at 09:50 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:33 PM   #330
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
And Psionl0 wonders why I bang on about dominionism all the time.
And I was right. Dominionism (if that was the aim) was stymied at the last election. Maybe Australia doesn't have as many fundy religious voters as the US does.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:37 PM   #331
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm not seeing how that would bankrupt the churches or otherwise cause them to fail. At most, it might decrease their lobbying power.

And yet you have not dared to answer the OP's question ... wow...

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?

Can you answer the question once and for all without all this prattle???


Not to mention the questions I posed to you myself in rebuttal to your piffle...

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post

Answer the questions I posed to you and stop wafting red herrings please.
  1. Do you think the advice of your ill begotten Zombified demi-god in Matthew 19:12 to be sane or moral... especially that is clearly a TRICK given that he knew what his deadbeat daddy said in Deuteronomy 23:1-2.
  2. And what about what he admonished in Matthew 8:22 given that it is violating the purported 5th commandment in Exodus 20:12.
  3. And why did he have so much avarice for gold and why did he bungle up his GPStar and why did he run off to hide in Egypt and never lifted a finger to stave off the extirpation of children he caused with his avarice and incompetence??
  4. Who killed Ananias and Sapphira and why and how??
  5. Don't you think that all this proves that he is more evil than Satan???
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:43 PM   #332
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
And I was right. Dominionism (if that was the aim) was stymied at the last election. Maybe Australia doesn't have as many fundy religious voters as the US does.
Do you know what is the difference between strategy and tactics and have you ever done any planning for anything... or have you ever played chess or even checkers???

And do you think 6 fundamentalists operatives pretending to be judges in the supreme court is a failure??? Do you watch the news?? Do you know what they have done to this country so far with more to come???

Of course you do... and thus that makes your answer a ruse...
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:49 PM   #333
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And yet you have not dared to answer the OP's question ... wow...
Sure I did. But you were too busy attacking me personally to notice.

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And do you think 6 fundamentalists operatives pretending to be judges in the supreme court is a failure??? Do you watch the news?? Do you know what they have done to this country so far with more to come???
They have done nothing to Australia where voters kicked out the fundy at the last election.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 09:54 PM   #334
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Sure I did. But you were too busy attacking me personally to notice.
Links please...


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
They have done nothing to Australia where voters kicked out the fundy at the last election.
  1. Another ruse
  2. Anything that affects the USA affects Australia sooner or later whether socially and/or economically and/or politically
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 10:06 PM   #335
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 10:31 PM   #336
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Aha... again you cannot DARE to answer anything... and you have not answered the OP either as you falsely claimed... as evinced by your inability to provide links.... thanks for demonstrating the extent of the bankruptcy (on many levels) of your apologetics.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 10:51 PM   #337
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,363
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
They have done nothing to Australia where voters kicked out the fundy at the last election.
You think it was all about one person? Seriously?
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 10:57 PM   #338
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You think it was all about one person? Seriously?
Well you did. (Why are you reopening the debate here?)
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 10:59 PM   #339
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,363
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Well you did. (Why are you reopening the debate here?)
I absolutely did not. That discussion was happening in the Australian Politics thread, which focused on the Prime Minister, so of course he was the subject under discussion.

And I did not reopen the debate. I merely continued it after Leumas started talking about dominionism.
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 11:06 PM   #340
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Sure I did. But you were too busy attacking me personally to notice.

Well... despite you not being able to give any links to prove your assertion... to be fair I went through ALLLLLL your posts in this thread so far....

Unfortunately for you ... your posts listed below clearly belie your assertion highlighted above...

So... no... you most assuredly have not dared to answer the OP's question... your claim is false...

Here is a list of all your posts... they blatantly belie your claim...
  1. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post13835293
  2. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post13835964
  3. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13835987
  4. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13837341
  5. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13837510
  6. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post13837833
  7. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13837935
  8. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13837950
  9. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13838230
  10. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post13838662
  11. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post13838674
  12. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post13838973
  13. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13839055
  14. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post13839104
  15. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post13839446
  16. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post13839518
  17. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13839741
  18. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post13839766
  19. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13840041
  20. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13840080
  21. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post13840243
  22. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post13840436
  23. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post13840454
  24. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13840975
  25. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post13840989
  26. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13841011
  27. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13841017
  28. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13841035
  29. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13841050
  30. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post13841055
  31. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13841107
  32. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post13841171
  33. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post13841676
  34. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post13841722
  35. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6#post13841776
  36. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post13841919
  37. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13842217
  38. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post13842222
  39. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post13842227
  40. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13842230
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 11:21 PM   #341
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,363
Was that really necessary? We can all read the thread.
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 11:25 PM   #342
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Well... despite you not being able to give any links to prove your assertion... to be fair I went through ALLLLLL your posts in this thread so far....

Unfortunately for you ... your posts listed below clearly belie your assertion highlighted above...

So... no... you most assuredly have not dared to answer the OP's question... your claim is false...

Here is a list of all your posts... they blatantly belie your claim...
[ 40 links searched and listed ]
Man, you really need to get a life!

The first link provided the answer. That it wasn't the single word "God" answer that you were hoping for is your problem alone. If you ask me if I am still beating my wife then I will refuse to answer that question "yes" or "no" either.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2022, 11:26 PM   #343
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
... to notice....

I did notice this:
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A world without slavery was unthinkable in the times when the biblical texts were being written. Why would an atheist expect the bible to challenge that view?

This statement really is a "special" concern trolling .... ....

Did the bible challenge witches and soothsayers and eating rabbits and having sex and praying to other gods etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.???

Which do you think is more apt of the bible to have "challenged" for runaway slaves in a desert... eating rabbit... a nutritious abundant source of food in a desert... or how to own and make and buy and sell humans as slaves for life???

Your apologetic for the bible's commandments for enslaving people... is sordidly grotesque.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 12:11 AM   #344
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Man, you really need to get a life!

I did... and in my geriatric years I am now having fun exposing and debunking the concern trolling being spewed all over the internet.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
...
The first link provided the answer.

Let's see...

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
How can anybody judge God or the devil when no two passages in the bible agree with each other?

For example, John 3:17 says "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him". This would appear to negate all of the judgey sections (although some translations of this verse have it as "the world MIGHT be saved").

As for all of those horror OT laws, it is not even established that God made those laws directly or just gave Moses the authority to make the laws.

So your answer to the question posed to christians about their gods and the devil is to say that their theology does not allow one to answer the question because the bible is contradictory and is not even from their god??

That is not an answer... that is a risible ruse to avoid answering... besides being clearly not true as far as a christian is concerned.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
As for all of those horror OT laws, it is not even established that God made those laws directly or just gave Moses the authority to make the laws.

According to the Bible... yes he did and it is established in the Bible itself...
  • Exodus 20:21-22 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. And YHWH said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
  • Exodus 24:12 And YHWH said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

So... no... you have not answered the question of the OP... all you did is to say that it cannot be answered because the bible is false.... you might as well have answered there is no god or devil... but that is not what a christian believes nor does a christian believe that the bible is false.

Besides... who appointed you as an apologist for christians???


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you ask me if I am still beating my wife then I will refuse to answer that question "yes" or "no" either.

BINGO... thanks for admitting that you have not answered the question with your very own words... QED!!
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 27th June 2022 at 12:17 AM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 12:46 AM   #345
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I did... and in my geriatric years I am now having fun exposing and debunking the concern trolling being spewed all over the internet.
IE If you can't address the argument then make false accusations against the arguer.

Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
BINGO... thanks for admitting that you have not answered the question with your very own words... QED!!
That removes any doubt that I had about you.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 01:00 AM   #346
IanS
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,640
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah. I know. How 19th Century of you.

And Psionl0 wonders why I bang on about dominionism all the time.

Then why did you ask as if implying that I had overlooked women, as if that was some sort of misogynistic oversight?

Why do you think it's outdated to try clarifying a word by capitalising it like that? What sort of silly complaint is that?

This is, or rather it was supposed to be (at one point), a serious discussion about what people believed when they invented religions such as Christianity, ie what they believed about the world all around them and what they believed about how & why any of it, inc. themselves, came to exist ... I think it's obvious that the religious stories and the belief in creation by superhuman Gods was their primitive attempt to explain the world around them ... their attempt to understand all of that in a pre-scientific age that was drowning in all manner of superstition and mysticism. They simply could not think of any other answer/explanation at that time.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 01:24 AM   #347
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
IE If you can't address the argument then make false accusations against the arguer.

Oblivious Self-projection... hahaha....

OK... let's see you address the argument by answering the OP's question and any of the ones I posed to you ... I will be very astonished if you ever dare answer.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That removes any doubt that I had about you.

Thanks!!! Are you now going to start answering questions without wriggling casuistry.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 01:51 AM   #348
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 77,363
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Then why did you ask as if implying that I had overlooked women, as if that was some sort of misogynistic oversight?

Why do you think it's outdated to try clarifying a word by capitalising it like that? What sort of silly complaint is that?
This is not the thread for the discussion of the antiquated use of the male term to refer to all humans.

I tried to make a point, you missed it, let's move on.
__________________
This is Australia. It's possible to start a fire with a lukewarm audience reaction to your standup routine.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 03:21 AM   #349
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
Oblivious Self-projection... hahaha....
This from somebody who believes that if anybody doesn't agree 100% with their POV then they are "concern trolling".
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 07:24 AM   #350
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 30,744
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

I'm not seeing how that would bankrupt the churches or otherwise cause them to fail. At most, it might decrease their lobbying power.
It won't be immediate. And it won't bankrupt them all. Probably not even most. But it will lead to bankruptcy for many. Many churches are struggling as we speak.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 10:12 AM   #351
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This from somebody who believes that if anybody doesn't agree 100% with their POV then they are "concern trolling".

You never answered any of the questions and you admitted you won't answer them.... so how exactly did you express your point of view... other than after refusing to answer the OP you proceeded to troll the thread with over 40 posts of irrelevant prattle that does not answer any of the questions as you yourself admit ... and the piffle is nothing other than attempts at undermining any relevant answers and deriding any criticism of the Bible by defending its atrocities (e.g. defending slavery).

Your actions as evinced by your posts are the textbook definition of concern trolling.

Can you now... for the umpteenth time.... very please .... give relevant answers to the OP's question... and pretty please mine too
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th June 2022, 08:20 PM   #352
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,252
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
You never answered any of the questions and you admitted you won't answer them.... so how exactly did you express your point of view... other than after refusing to answer the OP you proceeded to troll the thread with over 40 posts of irrelevant prattle that does not answer any of the questions as you yourself admit ... and the piffle is nothing other than attempts at undermining any relevant answers and deriding any criticism of the Bible by defending its atrocities (e.g. defending slavery).

Your actions as evinced by your posts are the textbook definition of concern trolling.

Can you now... for the umpteenth time.... very please .... give relevant answers to the OP's question... and pretty please mine too
You don't understand why "are you still beating your wife?" is an improper question so you will never understand my position.

You seem to have just recently discovered the term "concern trolling" because you bandy it about every time somebody doesn't agree with you 100%.

If you want me to answer "God" or "devil" then you will need to define both very precisely and explain which sections of the bible you cherry picked to form your personal definitions and which sections you filtered out.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 05:42 PM   #353
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 55,885
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, it doesn't. That said, faith does not lead to truth. If you must rely on faith, your foundation for belief is quicksand.

No one says they believe in anything because of faith other than a god belief.

That is just not true.
Look at many of the mass political movements of the 20th Century. Totally faith driven without a supreme being being involved. Oh, they made a pretense of logic but in the end it was faith..Hitler...or Stalin..or Mao was an infallible leader, incapable of serious error.
Blind faith is not limited to a god belief.
I know you have it in for religion in general, but ,sheesh, you should know better.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2022, 06:47 PM   #354
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 30,744
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is just not true.
Look at many of the mass political movements of the 20th Century. Totally faith driven without a supreme being being involved. Oh, they made a pretense of logic but in the end it was faith..Hitler...or Stalin..or Mao was an infallible leader, incapable of serious error.
Blind faith is not limited to a god belief.
I know you have it in for religion in general, but ,sheesh, you should know better.
I think you misunderstand my point. I grant that people very often have poor reasons for their beliefs. But outside of religious beliefs do they say the reason for their belief is faith.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2022, 02:36 AM   #355
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,354
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I grant that people very often have poor reasons for their beliefs. But outside of religious beliefs do they say the reason for their belief is faith.
Faith in a friend? Faith in the goodness of people? Faith in one's self?

"Faith in God" is more about faith in God's goodness (when things are going bad) rather than "faith in God's existence". Evidence for God's existence historically was regarded as being provided by the evidential orderly design of the world. Design implies a designer. Plato proposed the existence of a Demiurge as the Prime Mover to set the world in motion. Yes, those are poor reasons for belief in a designer for us nowadays, but it wasn't a faith-based position. The faith comes into it when you propose a good God who does bad things.

Last edited by GDon; 29th June 2022 at 03:22 AM.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2022, 06:42 AM   #356
Chanakya

 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,597
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
There are three ways one can do harm
  • Directly by doing an action that harms
  • Indirectly
    • Actively - By aiding of facilitating another person to do harm
    • Passively – By standing by and doing nothing to stop a harm
Obviously your dad is not doing the direct harm. However, your dad and all church goers are doing the indirect part.

By giving money to the church he is facilitating it. By supporting it and not speaking out against any actions he is passively doing harm.

One instance of such indirect harm is by supporting the Church’s political view. Despite the fact that Churches are not supposed to disseminate or advocate any political party…they do. So by tacitly supporting a religious moron to become a president or governor or congressman or senator or even mayor he is causing harm on local and Global scales.

By paying the tithe or more to the Church he is helping to give it power that translates into influence. This enables the church to make life hell for women who want to have control over their bodies or adult homosexuals who want to live in peace with their lovers. Bringing power to bear in order to thwart any research (e.g. stem cell) becomes much easier for moneyed and powerful organizations that work actively to undermine science.
When these churches have their way like what happened in Pennsylvania it results in harm in countless ways by hindering proper scientific education.

I call all this the Petri Dish Effect.

The matrix in a Petri Dish is not harmful…it is a sugary sweet medium upon which the bacteria feed. This bacteria is then free to turn virulent and thrive.

By hoping for and actively working towards precipitating the second coming he is basically hoping and working for the destruction of the world. Ask him for instance to find out how much money his church sends to Israel. Much of this money goes towards funding the fundamentalist settlements in Israel. This in turn creates more strive and perpetuates the enmity and hatred. Which in turn eventually causes death and misery if not global war (which is what they are hoping for).

Maybe if your dad realized this he may leave the church or at least refrain from funding it.

If your dad wants to give money then why not find a needy person in his neighborhood or give to some cancer research or some other such organizations.

Remind your dad that Jesus was utterly opposed to organized churches:
Matthew

In the course of a different discussion, in a different thread, I happened to talk about this Petri Dish Effect of yours. And it occurred to me, this guy’s actually coined a very cool term. And surely that’s more than on par with the wittiest of random pithy witticisms that come up in the course of discussions here, and that we nominate for the TLAs? In other words, nom-worthy, absolutely. Which is why I came back here to this thread, to nominate your Petri Dish Effect.
Chanakya is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2022, 07:26 AM   #357
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 60,104
Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
And you adamantly avoid defining what that is.... until you do so, your statement is a risible piffle.
I defined that at least twice in this conversation. I've given the same description of religious behaviors several times previously on this forum, in similar conversations. Dogma, schism, heresy, inquisition, auto-da-fé; these and other failure modes of religion emerge wherever things are taken on faith, whether that faith is in a god, a better tomorrow, or an axiomatic moral principle. Writ large, it captures the hearts and minds of entire nation-states and even empires. Writ small, it captures the hearts and minds of individuals, who each play out the same religious failure modes in their own small way.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.

Last edited by theprestige; 30th June 2022 at 07:33 AM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2022, 07:31 PM   #358
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
In the course of a different discussion, in a different thread, I happened to talk about this Petri Dish Effect of yours. And it occurred to me, this guy’s actually coined a very cool term. And surely that’s more than on par with the wittiest of random pithy witticisms that come up in the course of discussions here, and that we nominate for the TLAs? In other words, nom-worthy, absolutely. Which is why I came back here to this thread, to nominate your Petri Dish Effect.



Much appreciated...
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2022, 07:44 PM   #359
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You don't understand why "are you still beating your wife?" is an improper question so you will never understand my position.

So asking you questions about your deadbeat sky daddy and the other three deities you worship is an improper question???




Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You seem to have just recently discovered the term "concern trolling" because you bandy it about every time somebody doesn't agree with you 100%.
  1. You have not made any opinions one way or the other... all you did was waft about red herrings and avoided answering any questions
  2. Assuming things about what I know or how long I have known it is yet another predilection of apologists... and ironically it is ad hominem... which you keep accusing me of doing.... which is yet another demonstration of another predilection of apologists... self-projection.


Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you want me to answer "God" or "devil" then you will need to define both very precisely and explain which sections of the bible you cherry picked to form your personal definitions and which sections you filtered out.


More red herrings and obfuscation to wriggle out of answering...

May I remind you of the OP

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
One of the questions I pose to Christians is this.

Who is more evil, God or the Devil? And how did you decide?
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Last edited by Leumas; 30th June 2022 at 09:03 PM.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2022, 07:54 PM   #360
Leumas
Philosopher
 
Leumas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I defined that at least twice in this conversation. I've given the same description of religious behaviors several times previously on this forum, in similar conversations. Dogma, schism, heresy, inquisition, auto-da-fé; these and other failure modes of religion emerge wherever things are taken on faith

These are behaviors done by bad humans and have nothing to do with religious behavior... but religion can be used as an excuse that is more compelling than other excuses.

So no you have not defined religious behavior... you have defined how bad behavior can be rallied behind by religionists... which ... thanks for pointing out... is proof that religion is yet another human TOOL to do evil.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
, whether that faith is in a god, a better tomorrow, or an axiomatic moral principle. Writ large, it captures the hearts and minds of entire nation-states and even empires. Writ small, it captures the hearts and minds of individuals, who each play out the same religious failure modes in their own small way.

Yes... that is what humans do ... has nothing to do with religious faith... except that religious faith usually makes the minds of people more readily willing to be obeisant and servile and to stampede with the rest of the herd.
__________________
Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
Proverbs 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Leumas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:56 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.