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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 18th May 2018, 04:04 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yes, thanks so that would have been in Germany proper. I wonder how many were arrested in the occupied territories? Thanks for looking that up I couldn't find anything however on a different note I did find this quote about being a 'National socialist"
No, not only in Germany. And not only Germans were taken into protective custody or other extra-judicial detention in the camp system, whether in the Reich or outside the Reich. Without trying to be exhaustive, outside the Reich were the KLs of the Auschwitz complex, Majdanek (KL Lublin), KL Plaszow, KL Riga- Kaiserwald, KL Stutthof, KL-Vaivara, KL-Warschaur, KL-Natzweiler-Struthof, KL_Kauen, arguably KL Gross-Rosen. (This is leaving aside non-WVHA camps like Starachowice, Skarżysko-Kamienna, the Smelt camps, camps associated with the Todt organization, etc.) I will look up the %'s of German vs non-German inmates. The scale is quite large, just within the KL system - leaving aside work reeducation camps, special camps, camps run by the Wehrmacht, camps associated with business or labor operations, and so on.
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Old 19th May 2018, 05:39 AM   #602
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From Wachsmann’s book KL: during 1943 the composition of the inmate population in the KLs changed as mass arrests were carried out throughout Europe (NN, Himmler’s slave labor orders, security and other concerns in the East, etc) - thus, the % of German prisoners in the KL system fell dramatically (e.g., in Buchenwald the % of Germans decreased from 35% to 13% - and Soviet and Polish prisoners were now over 60% of the inmate population at Buchenwald - there were about the same number of French prisoners as Germans in the camp); in 1944 there were 200,000 women in the KL system (almost 40% of the prisoners at that time); during 1944 about 2/3 of new inmates were Jews, e.g., many from the Schmelt camps (sorry for typo on these camps above) and of course many Hungarian Jews.

Other sources on individual camps detail Wachsmann's point: as the Allies moved east from Normandy, camps in western Europe were emptied and their inmates moved into German KLs. At the same time, as the the Germans were pushed out of the Baltics and eastern Poland, camps in the east were similarly evacuated. For example, by late 1944 in Dachau there were almost 65,000 inmates from Hungary, Poland, the USSR, France, and Italy - and just 7,500 from Germany. In all, inmates at Dachau in 1944 came from 26 countries besides Germany.

My (quite chaotic) notes on the KLs don’t give system-wide totals, just directional cases and examples, with a large majority of prisoners in the KL system by 1943 coming from countries other than Germany.

By contrast, within the regular German prison system, in 1944, according to Wachsmann’s estimate in Hitler’s Prisons, there were about 200,000 prisoners (vs 500,000+ KL inmates that year). Wachsmann says that by the late 1930s about half those in the prison system were inmates who would not have been incarcerated in Weimar but were imprisoned due to the new laws and stricter policies of the Third Reich (different and greater use of protective custody, employment of security confinement for so-called habitual criminals). Wachsmann estimates that there were nearly 60,000 political prisoners in the regular prison system, including 13,000 Czechs and many Poles; also a few 1000s NN prisoners from western Europe, which means that even in regular German prisons there were many 1000s of foreign inmates incarcerated for political and security reasons.
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Old 19th May 2018, 05:35 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
From Wachsmann’s book KL: during 1943 the composition of the inmate population in the KLs changed as mass arrests were carried out throughout Europe (NN, Himmler’s slave labor orders, security and other concerns in the East, etc) - thus, the % of German prisoners in the KL system fell dramatically (e.g., in Buchenwald the % of Germans decreased from 35% to 13% - and Soviet and Polish prisoners were now over 60% of the inmate population at Buchenwald - there were about the same number of French prisoners as Germans in the camp); in 1944 there were 200,000 women in the KL system (almost 40% of the prisoners at that time); during 1944 about 2/3 of new inmates were Jews, e.g., many from the Schmelt camps (sorry for typo on these camps above) and of course many Hungarian Jews.

Other sources on individual camps detail Wachsmann's point: as the Allies moved east from Normandy, camps in western Europe were emptied and their inmates moved into German KLs. At the same time, as the the Germans were pushed out of the Baltics and eastern Poland, camps in the east were similarly evacuated. For example, by late 1944 in Dachau there were almost 65,000 inmates from Hungary, Poland, the USSR, France, and Italy - and just 7,500 from Germany. In all, inmates at Dachau in 1944 came from 26 countries besides Germany.

My (quite chaotic) notes on the KLs don’t give system-wide totals, just directional cases and examples, with a large majority of prisoners in the KL system by 1943 coming from countries other than Germany.

By contrast, within the regular German prison system, in 1944, according to Wachsmann’s estimate in Hitler’s Prisons, there were about 200,000 prisoners (vs 500,000+ KL inmates that year). Wachsmann says that by the late 1930s about half those in the prison system were inmates who would not have been incarcerated in Weimar but were imprisoned due to the new laws and stricter policies of the Third Reich (different and greater use of protective custody, employment of security confinement for so-called habitual criminals). Wachsmann estimates that there were nearly 60,000 political prisoners in the regular prison system, including 13,000 Czechs and many Poles; also a few 1000s NN prisoners from western Europe, which means that even in regular German prisons there were many 1000s of foreign inmates incarcerated for political and security reasons.

Excellent information I appreciate your effort in finding this out. I look at that and compare that to the number of people given sentences in the countries that have laws against denial. What two dozen over x number of years versus tens of thousands of political prisoners of the Nazis.

Would you care to estimate a number that we might use to fill in the following.

The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.

Thanks
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:16 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.

It would have to be over ten million. Technically, everyone placed in a camp were political prisoners. Their very existence was an affront to the policies of the Nazi regime.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:21 PM   #605
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Damn, missed the Mondial visit. I was hoping he might provide evidence as to what happened to the Hungarian Jews not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau, or the Poles at TII, or the Dutch at Sobibor.

It is my ambition to get a denier to answer that question........I may have to live till I am very old.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 04:28 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Damn, missed the Mondial visit. I was hoping he might provide evidence as to what happened to the Hungarian Jews not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau, or the Poles at TII, or the Dutch at Sobibor.

It is my ambition to get a denier to answer that question........I may have to live till I am very old.
Those are reasonable questions he should answer. Since I rather new in this thread, I asked him if he were a total non-believer or just didn't believe parts of the Holocaust.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 04:04 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Would you care to estimate a number that we might use to fill in the following.

The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.
The Nazis during their reign of terror, from 1933-1945, across Europe, placed into prison about 2+ million political prisoners.

Wachsmann has 150,000-200,000 people subjected to detention without trial in just 1933, before the camp system started to become structured and acquired permanence; these were mainly political detainees as the new regime settled scores with its traditional opponents and those feared to become its enemies. During 1934-1938 the daily numbers of KL prisoners grew from 2,500 in October 1934 to 24,000 in June 1938 before Kristallnacht, when the camp population temporarily exploded to 50,000, before falling back to 21,400 by the eve of the invasion of Poland. Again focusing on only KL prisoners, daily totals climbed during the war: December 1940 - 53,000; December 1941 - 80,000; December 1942 - 110,000; December 1943 - 315,000; August 1944 - 524,000; January 1945 - 714,000.

As noted, 10s of 1000s of prisoners were held in regular German prisons for political crimes, but the numbers during the 1930s were small compared to what came later, and many, many 1000s more were in various types of confinement outside the KL system during the war years, when numbers of prisoners in German custody skyrocketed.

I checked with a scholar who estimates that the Gestapo proper arrested around 2 million people from 1933 to 1945, including in the annexed territories during the war, whilst the SiPo arrested probably 1 million non-Jews across occupied territories.

The reasons for arrest and confinement were broader than what deniers complain about (thought crime, crimes of expression or political activity) and included speech and political activity/assocation, of course, but also what the Nazis defined as “asocial” behavior (another term might be “social or political outsiders”), excessive drinking or alcoholism, habitual criminality targeting so-called career criminals (security confinement, e.g., indefinite KL sentence tacked onto end of regular-prison sentence), being “work-shy” or violating labor laws (, begging or panhandling, striking or stopping work, loafing, absenteeism, fraternization with foreign laborers), section 175 offenses, being disabled (T4 and wild euthanasia), practicing as a Jehovah’s Witness, membership in a “local” political elite as in Poland, pacifism, being a member of Catholic and Protestant clergy (think Martin Niemöller) in some cases, living as a “Gypsy,” Freemasonry, trade union leadership or activity, political opposition (from KPD to SPD to Center Party and conservatives to oppositionists in the SA), being a relative of an important political opponent, suspicion of political opposition or possible future opposition, etc.

These categories cross one another, and estimating how many of those detained were held as “Reds” or for strictly political reasons is beyond me. I’ve searched a bit and not found an estimate of the number of “Reds” held as political detainees in the KLs. Even Langbein, who wrote a whole book on Greens/Reds and other groups in the camps, didn’t AFAIK venture an estimate for total number of Greens and Reds in the system.

Some data points: Wachsmann estimates that 80% of all Bavarian inmates in 1934 were still political prisoners but that the %’s of “asocials” and “criminals” (Greens) were increasing rapidly. By 1935 Dachau (in Bavaria) held, out of 1,543 prisoners, 246 professional criminals, 198 so-called work-shy, 26 “hardened criminals,” and 38 “moral perverts.” In 1937-1938 police sweeps for suspected criminals brought more and more “BVers” (Berufsverbrecher, or professional criminals) into the KLs; similarly Operation Work-Shy in 1938 rounded up 12,000-15,000 “asocials” and put them in KLs. By 1938 perhaps 70% of those in the camps were “asocials” (wearers of black triangle). As the SS expanded labor “opportunities” (er, important economic tasks) in the late ‘30s, Greens and “asocials” came to predominate in the camps. Wachsmann says that, counter to stereotypes, by and large the BVers were small-time property offenders, not violent, sadistic types.

During the war, the composition of the inmate population would shift again, as large numbers of people from occupied countries and territory were incarcerated in the KLs as political threats (this is leaving aside POWs and Jews also brought into the camps during the war) - along with local peasants who failed to meet requisition quotas and so on. Nacht und Nebel prisoners disappeared into camps from places in western Europe, as did volunteers for the Republican side in the Spanish civil war caught in France or elsewhere during the Nazi occupation. But also during these years the number of labor violators, fraternizers, etc in the camps increased. During the war, the proportion of “politicals” increased outside the borders of the Reich.

As a snapshot, in August 1944, according to vol II of the Auschwitz Museum history of KL Auschwitz, more than a quarter of the inmates (29,000) were political prisoners - and of this half about 1/3 were Poles, the next largest group being Russians. Well over half the prisoners at the time were Jews. There were small numbers of “asocials,” “Gypsies,” Jehovah’s Witnesses, section 175ers, and prisoners held in “probationary custody.” The data cited were compiled by the camp resistance and exclude another almost 40,000 Jews not given camp numbers. Of the non-Jewish prisoners, by far most were “politicals.”

I would guess that, using a conservative definition of “political prisoner,” 2+ million individuals landed in Nazi confinement of one sort or another during the Twelve-Year Reich as political detainees. Without a trial. Held indefinitely. Often in lethal conditions. As to the small number of revisionists whose asses have landed in prison, unlike KL and other prisoners of work-reeducation camps, etc, they’ve been found guilty of violating specific laws, by a court, and, after mounting a legal defense, given a specific sentence under the law, whatever one thinks of the laws involved.

My suggestion for deniers with a martyr-complex, to get a simpler look at this, is that they inquire about Sophie and Hans Scholl to learn how the Nazis handled popular expression of differing political viewpoints (“thought crimes” and expression of dissent - sadly, they would not have been able to ask the Scholls, after the war, for their experiences). Or these cry-baby deniers might ask what was the fate of Kurt Schleicher, or even of the SA-men slaughtered by Hitler and the SS in June 1934. Or what happened to prominent national conservatives during the Third Reich. To get a sense of how their heroes operated.
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Old 24th May 2018, 03:50 AM   #608
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One delusion which deniers trade in is that anti-HD laws come about because those who want to curtail certain speech are afraid of the truth and have no arguments against it. Here, however, is a case in the US of an attempt to shut down speech involving false statements - not out of a fear of the truth or a lack of arguments to counter the falsehoods but because the speech is hurtful to the point of harassing and because it is ongoing, thus repeating the harm over and over.
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Old 15th June 2018, 01:53 AM   #609
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Anti-denial laws also do not prevent people accessing archives and looking for evidence. Look at the work produced by Carlo Mattogno in particular. He admits to accessing original sources in Poland and Russia, which I believe he can also read and produces copies in his books. Thomas Kues and BRoI have also been beavering away in archives (BRoI at Kew and the UK National Archive).

If there really was a hoax to protect, there is no way those people would be allowed anywhere near archives or originals, in case they find evidence of the claimed mass survival of those sent to the AR camps.

Denial laws do not prevent access to archives or research.
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