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Old 25th January 2018, 05:20 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Translation: let's talk about anything other than the subject at hand!
Yes, the subject you can't discuss.
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Old 25th January 2018, 05:23 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The best reason to assume the core could not stand alone longer than a few minutes would be that it wasn't designed to be able to stand alone. Wind loads were dealt with by the perimeter in conjunction with floor systems and core. Take away any component, and the structure is mostly doomed. 1300 ft tall structure do not remain standing by chance.
The facade (tube) would not be able to resist the wind loads without the core The sides would flex in and snap. The facade needs the core.

The OSS and IC floors need columns to support their weight so...yes they can't float in mid air.

The core is a moment frame and it's floors help it to stay square. They don't play a role in resisting wind shear. The core does not need the facade to resist wind shear.

But a core with no walls is nothing but a huge frame... like a radio tower... not useful for occupancy. Radio towers are guyed because the slenderness ratio is too great... they would self buckle without guys.

Core slenderness ratio would not lead to self buckling. It was self supporting and stable. It did not need the OOS floors or the perimeter columns/facade.
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Old 25th January 2018, 05:25 PM   #203
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Ignore Steve... he is way way way over his depth. He has the understanding of a child in a mature adult's brain. He's driven by contempt for the status quo... It is a waste of time to even try to have an intelligent discussion with him.
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Old 25th January 2018, 05:33 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Ignore Steve... he is way way way over his depth. He has the understanding of a child in a mature adult's brain. He's driven by contempt for the status quo... It is a waste of time to even try to have an intelligent discussion with him.
hehe -

Poor Jeff.
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Old 25th January 2018, 05:39 PM   #205
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Have a nice life Steve... I am doing fine. Thanks for caring
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Old 25th January 2018, 05:40 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Have a nice life Steve... I am doing fine. Thanks for caring
Of course, Jeff, and same to you. I care about all creatures.
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Old 25th January 2018, 05:57 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
I care about all creatures.
Except these.
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Old 25th January 2018, 06:22 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Perfect.
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Old 25th January 2018, 06:38 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Hate that list........I know three.
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Old 25th January 2018, 06:53 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Translation: let's talk about anything other than the subject at hand!
There is no subject at hand. You have presented nothing worthy to discuss - your premise having utterly failed at the first sentence,... yet here we are 6 pages on.
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Old 25th January 2018, 07:13 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
...
"For framed tube structures the lateral resistance is given by very stiff moment resisting frames that form a tube around the perimeter of the building. The frames consists of closely spaced columns, 2–4 meters between centres, connected by girders.
The tube carries all the lateral load and the self-weight is distributed between the outer tube and the interior columns or walls. For the lateral loading the perimeter frames aligned in the load direction acts as webs of the tube cantilever and those perpendicular to the load direction acts as flanges"

from STRUCTURAL DESIGN OF HIGH-RISE BUILDINGS by ERIK HALLEBRAND and WILHELM JAKOBSSON
Thanks for providing an expert quote that reinforces what I said: Lateral loads in that WTC design hinge primarily on the design of the perimeter - the core plays a minor, incidental role.

1300 feet tall structures do not and cannot remain safe and standing unless great care is invested in the design.
No care at all was invested in making the 1300 feet high core able to stand alone.

Again, the core is not, by itself, designed to stand alone and resist wind loads. It would be by mere luck and rare coincidence if it were able to stand alone.
In all probability, a hypothetical twin core in isolation would buckle under the first brisk gush, if not earlier.
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Old 25th January 2018, 08:36 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Of course, Jeff, and same to you. I care about all creatures.
No, you don't care about anything, since you mock the murder of thousands by 19 terrorists by making idiotic lies.

You have no clue you are mocking the murder of thousands, and you don't care about it.

You have no evidence, thus it is impossible to discuss evidence. You have no clue you have no evidence.

You are like flat earth believers, no evidence, no science. And the big one, no clue you are wrong
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Old 25th January 2018, 08:55 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Its fairly clear that the buildings were evacuated so that demolition charges could be place.
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Old 25th January 2018, 09:53 PM   #214
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The straps:



Can be seen hanging neatly in a row from the spandrel where the lobby ceiling met the wall, despite the fact that they were not encased in concrete. Lobby ceiling material is easy to see on the spandrel. Had concrete floors been on every spandrel, there would be evidence of them, just as there is evidence of the remains of the lobby ceiling.

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...uss-straps.png

But on every spandrel above the lobby where the straps ought to have been encased in concrete, there is no hint of the floor material that should have been on every level, had those floors been there at the time, like the lobby ceiling material is.



I don't know why this causes so much of a stir with truthers and trusters. Why could it be that it is so difficult to have an open discussion of the evidence that's been sitting under everyone's noses for a decade and a half? I just can't figure it out. It's almost as if the truth movement has been working with the debunkers to steer truth-seekers away from evidence like this. Nah, it must just be a coincidence.

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Old 25th January 2018, 10:09 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
I don't know why this causes so much of a stir with truthers and trusters.
What's a truster?
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Old 26th January 2018, 12:15 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
What's a truster?
I think it's supposed to be the opposite of Truther, someone who trusts the Official Story.

Here's an example:

Quote:
The more obvious 9/11 gets the more idiocy and fake road signs the trusters defecate.
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:14 AM   #217
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Damn, youre right Yankee! It must have been a huge conspiracy by the US government, the media, engineers, scientists, construction companies, tunnel diggers, everyone who worked or lived in Manhattan, and every tourist that visited New York in 2001!

No one died in the attacks, so the roughly 3000 people who disappeared on that day, were either relocated at great expense and risk of detection, or they never existed, and the hundreds of thousands of grieving friends and families and millions of vague acquaintances, neighbours, employers, banks, utility companies, and everyone else, are all part of the conspiracy as well!

Wow, you're so wise. Those nasty powers that be, keeping you down for all those years because you knew the truth!

Good thing you kept nurturing your hate boner so you could open our eyes to how special you are!
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:54 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Thanks for providing an expert quote that reinforces what I said: Lateral loads in that WTC design hinge primarily on the design of the perimeter - the core plays a minor, incidental role.

1300 feet tall structures do not and cannot remain safe and standing unless great care is invested in the design.
No care at all was invested in making the 1300 feet high core able to stand alone.

Again, the core is not, by itself, designed to stand alone and resist wind loads. It would be by mere luck and rare coincidence if it were able to stand alone.
In all probability, a hypothetical twin core in isolation would buckle under the first brisk gush, if not earlier.
The incorrect statement was if the core could stand without the perimeter and the floor. ALL steel frame building have increased windage because of the facade skin... and require a wind shear strategy... of which there are several. In the case of the twin towers all three main elements were composite. But this has nothing to do with whether the entire core could stand without the facade or the OOS floors. It could.

It is only a thought experiment whether the core could stand alone... The building would never be built like this... first the entire core... then the facade and then the floor system

The lateral loads that the tower sees would be based on the wind pressure x the area. There is a VAST difference between wind pressure on the facade and wind pressure experience by the core frame alone.

The core is of course essentially a cantilever beam fixed the the ground.... like a flag pole.

A beam will self buckle - Ruler buckling if the slenderness ration exceeds 49 for a short column, between 49 and 150 for a medium column and 150 for a slender column. The core was 1350' high and 60 feet in the short axis, 137 in the long. It had a slenderness ratio in is short access of 23 (<49) and 10 (<49) in the long access. This the core would be considered a short column as far as Eluer buckling is concerned and would not self buckle.

Wind pressure (force) is P=.00256 x VxV (V is wind speed)

Next calculate area of the facade and the frame steel alone. Note that the wind pressure is not the same at all elevations.

You will find that there is not sufficient wind pressure at up to hurricane force winds to topple the frame.

Core won't self buckle, it won't be blown over by wind. Core could stand alone.
The quote explains implies exactly what I wrote.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg self buckling.jpg (96.9 KB, 2 views)
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Old 26th January 2018, 04:33 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
The straps:
Again, irrelevant.
Explain why thousands of people imagined working in the towers, or imagine knowing people who worked in the towers.

Until you can do that you are left with photos you simply don't understand.
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Old 26th January 2018, 04:58 AM   #220
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This whole strap thing is an irrelevancy.

Point to straps
Assert that it’s wrong and this is what straps should have done or looked like because REASONS
Gloat because nobody can refute

Everybody else: WTF? You think straps should have done what, and why? How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Rinse, lather, repeat...
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Old 26th January 2018, 05:04 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Its fairly clear that the buildings were evacuated so that demolition charges could be place.
Without doubt the most important thing to do in a mass casualty event designed to start wars that will kill hundreds of thousands is to,... minimize casualties.

Makes total sense.
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Old 26th January 2018, 05:59 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Please try to not let your preconceptions distract you from addressing the evidence detailed in the OP, which I can't help but notice truthers and trusters avoid.
There's no evidence in the OP, and it's far from detailed.

You're going to have to do better if you want others to do some work for you.
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Old 26th January 2018, 06:14 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
The straps:

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...s-straps-2.jpg

Can be seen hanging neatly in a row from the spandrel where the lobby ceiling met the wall, despite the fact that they were not encased in concrete. Lobby ceiling material is easy to see on the spandrel. Had concrete floors been on every spandrel, there would be evidence of them, just as there is evidence of the remains of the lobby ceiling.

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...uss-straps.png

But on every spandrel above the lobby where the straps ought to have been encased in concrete, there is no hint of the floor material that should have been on every level, had those floors been there at the time, like the lobby ceiling material is.

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...lift-with-.jpg

I don't know why this causes so much of a stir with truthers and trusters. Why could it be that it is so difficult to have an open discussion of the evidence that's been sitting under everyone's noses for a decade and a half? I just can't figure it out. It's almost as if the truth movement has been working with the debunkers to steer truth-seekers away from evidence like this. Nah, it must just be a coincidence.
You answered your own question, just don't understand it.
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Old 26th January 2018, 06:22 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
This whole strap thing is an irrelevancy.
Well isn't that the bread and butter of CTs? Focus on some irrelevant and trivial detail and treat is as if it's the smoking gun of a major, evil deed?

CTs are a mental health issue, I tell you.
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Old 26th January 2018, 07:45 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
A beam will self buckle - Ruler buckling if the slenderness ration exceeds 49 for a short column, between 49 and 150 for a medium column and 150 for a slender column. The core was 1350' high and 60 feet in the short axis, 137 in the long. It had a slenderness ratio in is short access of 23 (<49) and 10 (<49) in the long access. This the core would be considered a short column as far as Eluer buckling is concerned and would not self buckle.
This is full of typos and should read:

The core was ABOUT 1350' high and 60 feet in the short axis, 137 in the long AXIS. The core had a slenderness ratio in short AXIS of 23 (<49) and 10 (<49) in the long AXIS. Slenderness ratio in either axis would make the chore a SHORT column THUS and as a short column as far as EULER buckling is concerned and would not self buckle.
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Old 26th January 2018, 08:39 AM   #226
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Old 26th January 2018, 08:43 AM   #227
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My god... it's full of straps!
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Old 26th January 2018, 08:49 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
What's a truster?
It's one of those rich kids up on Long Island.
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Old 26th January 2018, 09:23 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
The straps:

Can be seen hanging neatly in a row from the spandrel where the lobby ceiling met the wall, despite the fact that they were not encased in concrete. Lobby ceiling material is easy to see on the spandrel. Had concrete floors been on every spandrel, there would be evidence of them, just as there is evidence of the remains of the lobby ceiling.

But on every spandrel above the lobby where the straps ought to have been encased in concrete, there is no hint of the floor material that should have been on every level, had those floors been there at the time, like the lobby ceiling material is.
Your problem is you don't understand the fact you shouldn't see these straps if the truss connection fails. The straps are only connected to the exterior columns above the lobby level by a small angle and bolt, the slabs do not contact the columns.

You really should research how the building was made before you make such bold (and false) claims.


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Old 26th January 2018, 01:15 PM   #230
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A picture of the connection. Anyone actually think they should remain after a truss connection failure?

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Old 26th January 2018, 01:22 PM   #231
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Quote:
The most-likely suspects behind the destruction of the World Trade Center, the attack on the Pentagon and that odd-shaped crater in Shanksville, are the leaders of most of the world’s nations, media, businesses, law enforcement, and what passes for academia.
Well, that narrows it down.....
"Murder On The Orient Express" did the "Everybody Did It' routine much better.


Sixteen plus years on ,and it's the same old Truther B.S. And that's one of the worst things about the Truther crap: after a short while..it gets so damn boring. No entertainment value.

And I have seen the "No one was in the buildings;all the Victims were faked" insanity before; for sheer lunacy it is right down there with the No Planers and the Killer Beams From Space theories.
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:38 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, that narrows it down.....
This is the closest he's been to right. The hijackers were able to get on the planes and not be molested by intercepts due to the fact we were complacent with our security. None of us would have accepted the post 9/11 measures that would have stopped the attack without the wake up of that day, hell we bitch about them now. Yes, we were bit in the arse by our own complacency. All of us.
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:40 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
This is the closest he's been to right. The hijackers were able to get on the planes and not be molested by intercepts due to the fact we were complacent with our security. None of us would have accepted the post 9/11 measures that would have stopped the attack without the wake up of that day, hell we bitch about them now. Yes, we were bit in the arse by our own complacency.
Maybe,but I think blaming Business Leaders,the Media, and Academia for the failures of Governement Security agencies is a bit much.........
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:42 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe,but I think blaming Business Leaders,the Media, and Academia for the failures of Governement Security agencies is a bit much.........
Yes, he should have included himself (unless he was advocating tight airport security pre 9/11). Government security over the private sector (airlines) is mostly in response to threat and tempered by what the customer will accept.
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Old 26th January 2018, 02:16 PM   #235
turingtest
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Your problem is you don't understand the fact you shouldn't see these straps if the truss connection fails. The straps are only connected to the exterior columns above the lobby level by a small angle and bolt, the slabs do not contact the columns.

You really should research how the building was made before you make such bold (and false) claims.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...b55473e5af.jpg
With all due respect, I think you're giving Yankee too much credit here- his misunderstanding of the engineering is the least of his problems. In fact, addressing him on that ground is playing his game- his own theory, that the Towers were (and always had been?) empty shells on 9/11, is an idea that needs its own evidence, and the engineering is beside the point. Challenging him on anything else is like telling Jeffrey Dahmer he was wrong to kill and eat people because, cooked or raw, they just don't taste that good.
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Old 26th January 2018, 02:29 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
With all due respect, I think you're giving Yankee too much credit here- his misunderstanding of the engineering is the least of his problems. In fact, addressing him on that ground is playing his game- his own theory, that the Towers were (and always had been?) empty shells on 9/11, is an idea that needs its own evidence, and the engineering is beside the point. Challenging him on anything else is like telling Jeffrey Dahmer he was wrong to kill and eat people because, cooked or raw, they just don't taste that good.
Yeah, it's the "The buildings were empty on 9/11" theory that puts Yankee on my "This is beyond Bat Crap Crazy" list.
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:18 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, it's the "The buildings were empty on 9/11" theory that puts Yankee on my "This is beyond Bat Crap Crazy" list.
Christophera has been referenced here, and I have to say, an "empty towers" idea that makes his look sane by comparison fully deserves the "bat-crap crazy" label.

(Please note that when I call Chris's idea "sane by comparison," I'm only talking about the idea that the tower cores were concrete rather than steel. The lengths he had to go to in order to support that- imaginary documentaries, everyone in the world was hypnotized to forget, etc.- are a whole 'nuther ball of crazy. But these were things Chris had to believe, things that needed to be true, to make his "theory" workable; and if Yankee's not careful, he'll end up traveling that same twisty road. Ryan Mackey's Inflationary Theory applies to more than just "who was in on it.")
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Old 26th January 2018, 04:08 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, it's the "The buildings were empty on 9/11" theory that puts Yankee on my "This is beyond Bat Crap Crazy" list.
Without a doubt. I was simply pointing out yet another fact he will ignore. He states no one will discuss this with him but, anyone reading will clearly see he is the one avoiding discussion.

I said it up thread, his intention is to generate clicks to his site, I have not done so, responding here does not help his route goal.
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Old 26th January 2018, 04:15 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I lived in New York. I visited each tower several times. I went to the observation deck. I went to Windows on the World. I watched people stream off the subway and into the buildings' elevators.

I don't think I've ever heard a theory about anything less aligned with reality.

Considering how easy it would be for you to talk to any of the thousands who worked in the buildings on 9/10, your lack of independent research is startlingly unforgivable.
It's not a new theory. Letsroll.org or some similarly named site has long advocated the view that the towers were mostly hollow, built only for a false flag attack to bring them down.

Sure, it's a stupid notion. But it's not an originally stupid notion.
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Old 26th January 2018, 04:18 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Good point.

Yankee, how many people in the world agree with your theory and also find it true and obvious? More than 7?
Yes, more than seven agree. Sadly.
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