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Tags loose change , controlled demolition , video

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Old 27th April 2006, 02:48 PM   #1
Gravy
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"Loose Change" Video Demolition

For those of you who don't have enough stupidity in your lives, here's a link to an analysis of the "9-11 Loose Change" video, which is supposedly the cream of the CT video crop. I handed out CDs with this file (actually a higher-res file) to the people who got free DVDs from the Loosers at the opening of "United 93" on Tuesday. Most of the major 9/11 CT arguments are covered here,

http://media2.uploadjar.com/file.php..._vie15a3eb.pdf
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Last edited by Gravy; 27th April 2006 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 27th April 2006, 02:51 PM   #2
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Forget the video...

Why did you yell at the guy walking his dog??
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Old 27th April 2006, 03:06 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Why did you yell at the guy walking his dog??
That dog wouldn't stop asking me what the frequency was!
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Old 27th April 2006, 03:15 PM   #4
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very good leaflet, though not sure how you managed to watch the film that closely without smashing something

Being sad, I can think of one or two additional problems with the film/additional references you could add to strengthen this even further, if you are looking to add to it; the pdf is really good as it is, though
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Old 27th April 2006, 03:22 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by jon View Post
very good leaflet, though not sure how you managed to watch the film that closely without smashing something

Being sad, I can think of one or two additional problems with the film/additional references you could add to strengthen this even further, if you are looking to add to it; the pdf is really good as it is, though
Yes, I'll definitely be adding to that document. You can post your ideas here or email to itmatters@mail.com
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Old 27th April 2006, 05:29 PM   #6
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Gravy, many thanks for tackling this.

I am not very far into your pdf document, but I have a few comments. Take them for whatever they are worth.

1. I think that the timestamping and numbering of every sentence in the film is overkill, and makes the document harder to read, as well as much longer than it needs to be. I think that putting a time stamp at the beginning of pertinent paragraphs and/or sections would be more than sufficient to help someone in locating and confirming any of the statements in the film.

2. You use sarcasm in several points in the document. I think this detracts from your point-by-point analysis, and in some cases, the sarcasm can easily be lost (such as when you say that the plane engine is 70' across). Humor, such as the "losing the luggage in Phoenix" line, seems misplaced to me.

Edited to add: Understand that your target audience for this document is not skeptics looking for you to slam these guys. It is the average person, who will be looking to your document to refute the Loose Change claims, not for humor.

3. Using red to differentiate your comments from the quotes of the film is problematic. For one thing, if someone prints your document out on a non-color printer, it will be very difficult for someone to distinguish your comments from the film quotes. If someone wants to print it out, make xerox copies of it to hand out, you are forcing them to pay for color copies.

I would suggest, rather than using color-coding to differentiate, you use something similar to what Randi uses in his commentary, with quotes indented, and his own comments flush left. Or what I use on the Stopkaz site, with quotes in indented boxes, and my own words flush left. Either of these methods do not require a color printer for someone to understand a printed copy.

None of this has to do with your specific content, more with style and format.

I hope in the next few evenings to spend some time watching the film, and then reading your document fresh, allowing me to do a better job at critiquing what you have done.

Again sir, thanks for taking this on.
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Old 27th April 2006, 06:05 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by RSLancastr View Post
Gravy, many thanks for tackling this.

I am not very far into your pdf document, but I have a few comments. Take them for whatever they are worth.

1. I think that the timestamping and numbering of every sentence in the film is overkill, and makes the document harder to read, as well as much longer than it needs to be. I think that putting a time stamp at the beginning of pertinent paragraphs and/or sections would be more than sufficient to help someone in locating and confirming any of the statements in the film.

2. You use sarcasm in several points in the document. I think this detracts from your point-by-point analysis, and in some cases, the sarcasm can easily be lost (such as when you say that the plane engine is 70' across). Humor, such as the "losing the luggage in Phoenix" line, seems misplaced to me.

Edited to add: Understand that your target audience for this document is not skeptics looking for you to slam these guys. It is the average person, who will be looking to your document to refute the Loose Change claims, not for humor.

3. Using red to differentiate your comments from the quotes of the film is problematic. For one thing, if someone prints your document out on a non-color printer, it will be very difficult for someone to distinguish your comments from the film quotes. If someone wants to print it out, make xerox copies of it to hand out, you are forcing them to pay for color copies.

I would suggest, rather than using color-coding to differentiate, you use something similar to what Randi uses in his commentary, with quotes indented, and his own comments flush left. Or what I use on the Stopkaz site, with quotes in indented boxes, and my own words flush left. Either of these methods do not require a color printer for someone to understand a printed copy.

None of this has to do with your specific content, more with style and format.

I hope in the next few evenings to spend some time watching the film, and then reading your document fresh, allowing me to do a better job at critiquing what you have done.

Again sir, thanks for taking this on.
Your comments are much appreciated. Yes, i do think the time code is distracting, but I didn't feel like reformatting it all (the transcription is from the Loose Change website...I didn't type all that time code in!)

To the sarcasm and perhaps misplaced humor, I plead nolo contendere. Tapping into my very absurd sense of humor was the only way I could get through that video. When I was watching "Loose Change," I actually had to get up every few minutes and walk around and "shake it off." I may not have expressed myself in the most effective way, but it's all an honest reaction to the anger I was feeling ...and I warn you that it probably gets worse as the commentary goes along.

I never thought about the colors and printing. That was pretty dumb. I guess I never thought anyone would want to print that stuff at all. And it's definitely harder to read as a low-res PDF.

I'm working on my next debunking project, so I'll incorporate your suggestions. Thanks!
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Old 27th April 2006, 07:04 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
For those of you who don't have enough stupidity in your lives, here's a link to an analysis of the "9-11 Loose Change" video, which is supposedly the cream of the CT video crop. I handed out CDs with this file (actually a higher-res file) to the people who got free DVDs from the Loosers at the opening of "United 93" on Tuesday. Most of the major 9/11 CT arguments are covered here,

http://media2.uploadjar.com/file.php..._vie15a3eb.pdf
Wow! Gravy, this is awesome!
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Old 27th April 2006, 07:15 PM   #9
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A suggestion:

On pages 32 & 33, I suggest that you flesh out the "quality of [AFP & Bollyn's] reporting" by including links to some samples. There's lots to choose from here:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/columnist.asp?ID=6

But my favorite is:
ISRAEL and US DEVELOP INFRARED BEAM WEAPON
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Old 27th April 2006, 07:16 PM   #10
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Cleveland??? (Jason Bermas of LC at left)


Some of the Truthers before things got going.
There were so many cameras there that I didn't feel like taking more photos.
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Old 27th April 2006, 07:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
A suggestion:

On pages 32 & 33, I suggest that you flesh out the "quality of [AFP & Bollyn's] reporting" by including links to some samples. There's lots to choose from here:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/columnist.asp?ID=6

But my favorite is:
ISRAEL and US DEVELOP INFRARED BEAM WEAPON
Bah! I'm glad I didn't see that list before: would have spent precious hours laughing at Bollyn. My favorite is Was Baltic Ferry Sunk to Prevent Technology from Reaching the West?
That's what we've been missing...Baltic technology!
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Old 27th April 2006, 07:30 PM   #12
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Am I the only having trouble downloading the pdf ?
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Old 27th April 2006, 08:46 PM   #13
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Not to tell you your job, but an additional comment on page 57 is that the government cannot just release confiscated tapes to the public. It may show them at trials, but they are still the property of the company whose camera took them. Look at the settlements with regards to the Zapruder film as a demonstration of why they do not release things.

Do not take my word for it. Ask a lawyer. I did.
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Old 27th April 2006, 08:56 PM   #14
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Page 63.

The Philadelphia fire LC mentions was the Meridian Building. The firefighting efforts were abandoned after 11 hours because the firedepartment feared (ta-dah) pancake collapse! The building was effectively destroyed in any case. It had a large net over it and had to be reinforced before it could be brought down!
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Old 27th April 2006, 09:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
That dog wouldn't stop asking me what the frequency was!
Is your name Kenneth?

I can't believe that you took enough care to put together this 285 page document. If you're still going to use it, I have some ideas. First, edit out the time markers between sentences. It's OK to keep them between paragraphs, and this will cut down on the length.

Drop the whole bit about the aspect ratio of the opening image. It's nitpicking, which you don't want to be doing.

With the Operation Northwoods info, point out that 1) this plan involved deception, but no one would get hurt, especially not thousands of innocents, and 2) it wasn't carried out because it was nuts.

Charles Burlingame (the AA77 pilot) didn't retire and take a job with AA a year before the attacks - he had been with American since 1979. This is a perfect example of either lies or complete lack of fact-checking.

At 12:00, Rumsfeld is quoted as saying "...using an American Airlines flight filled with our citizens, and a missile to damage..." This was likely a mis-quote, because it doesn't make sense that way. Now change the "and" after the comma to "as" and read it again.

Then I got to your comments on the AA77/Pentagon part, which were excellent. I've made it up to page 50 so far, and will keep going later.
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Old 28th April 2006, 01:51 AM   #16
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Wow, Gravy! What a lot of work! I'm enjoying reading it very much.

I do agree with the comments so far. While I am enjoying the humour and sarcasm, I can see how that might not endear your evidence to someone who is pretty much convinced by LC already. Sorry, I can only suggest more 'shake-it-off walks'. At least it will be lots of good excercise.

I haven't been able to view LC itself due to computer limitations at home and restrictions at work. I can see now why a CTist I've been debating wouldn't quote for me the 'engine manufacturer' of the engine part found at the Pentagon, as the information in LC is non-conclusive.

One point I'd like to query is that you say the factory that makes the Rolls Royce engines for the RB211-535 is in Quebec. I can only find information on the web saying that the factory is in Derby, England. (It's Pratt & Whitney who have a factory in Quebec, AFAIK.)

It's been fascinating to see how bad the video really is! Thanks, Gravy, and I look forward to reading your work further.
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Old 28th April 2006, 04:27 AM   #17
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Good suggestions, all. I've made some content changes and given you credit. I'lll upload a new file tonight. Format changes will have to wait. The main reason I left the time codes in is that they were extremely helpful to me in doing detail work, and I thought they might be helpful to someone else. Also, I was in a hurry to get this done so I could give it to the LC crew on Tuesday.

They were my target audience: the three guys who made the video, and especially Dylan Avery, who wrote and directed it. Normally I wouldn't include (much!) ridicule or sarcasm in an argument, but this is one case where I have no problem doing that. I think they should be ashamed of themselves, not because they're incompetent, but because they're so aggressively, obnoxiously incompetent. I wish you could have seen them on Tuesday, yelling their heads off about how blind everyone was, and how the only place to find the truth was in their DVD. They said to me, "How can you sleep at night? Why don't you go and pick up your goveernment paycheck?" And I hadn't said a thing to them.

My attitude might be a little different if this wasn't the second version of their video. They had a chance to improve it, and what's the biggest change they made? The changed the status of flight 93 passengers from heroes who fought for their lives to suckers who landed in Cleveland. Disgusting.

Orphia, we were both sort of right about the Rolls-Royce engine. There is a Rolls plant in Quebec where those engines are overhauled, but they're made in Derby.
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Old 28th April 2006, 04:38 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
My attitude might be a little different if this wasn't the second version of their video. They had a chance to improve it, and what's the biggest change they made? The changed the status of flight 93 passengers from heroes who fought for their lives to suckers who landed in Cleveland. Disgusting.
I can't believe they kept the blue tarp/tent thing in the 2nd edition.

I guess if they started fact-checking even the easy stuff, though, they'd eventually end up with something awfully close to the conventional account, which wouldn't make it a very entertaining or subversive art project.
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Old 28th April 2006, 05:37 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
Format changes will have to wait. The main reason I left the time codes in is that they were extremely helpful to me in doing detail work, and I thought they might be helpful to someone else.
I think it will be good to leave them in, but just have one at the first of each paragraph or two, not every prepositional phrase and appositive. Those just make it hard to read.
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Old 28th April 2006, 03:03 PM   #20
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"(871a was just to see if anyone was paying attention.)"

I was, and it made me laugh.
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