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Tags part 2 , loose change , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 26th May 2006, 08:57 AM   #361
CptColumbo
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Another issue that has to be taken into consideration: In the days following the collapse it was still considered a "rescue" operation. The rubble was being cleared away as quickly as possible, in the hopes that survivors would be found. They weren't thinking that somebody will someday doubt that those two planes brought down the towers so we should be careful, they were thinking let's get this $iht out of the way and save as many people as we can.
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Old 26th May 2006, 09:05 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
Brick houses "pancake." Smaller apartment buildings "pancake." A high-rise steel structure whose height is several times its width and depth has NEVER pancaked.
Oh really? Then why were internal fire-fighting efforts at the Philadelphia Meridian Plaza abandoned? They claimed it was because of the threat of 'pancake collapse'. Were the PFD a bunch of liars?
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Old 26th May 2006, 09:09 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
It is nonsensical to expect a high-rise steel structure to "pancake."
Then you really need to tell every structural engineer in the world about your marvelous findings. You basicly are saying that skyscrapers are immune to fire. Just let 'em burn up the office materials inside, make sure the fire doesn't spread, and maybe replace the roof! Why risk firefighters lives if collapse from fire is never a threat?

Quote:
The reasons are:

1. They are designed to have much more vertical strength than horizontal strength
Strength would matter if there was a sufficient horizontal force acting on the WTC. There was not. Its sheer mass ensured that

Quote:
2. Most importantly, it has never happened. I can not go on Google and find an example of something that has never happened. That is silly.
Pancake collapse has certainly happened, most often in earthquakes.

http://www.restoringearth.co.uk/educ...ilure/pw3.shtm
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Old 26th May 2006, 09:20 AM   #364
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Mutton-Head

If would be helpful if even one genuine structural engineer shared your opinion, but none do.

Please explain to this laymen, why I should believe you, another laymen, rather then certified and experience experts in the field. Explain, what special level of intelligence you have that I shouldn't lump you in with the other crackpots, like Christophera (who started another similar thread). You two have much in common, while you are much more articulate, both of you hold your own opinions is high regard, but yet don't have a lick of advanced knowledge of experience in the fields on which you pontificate.

Tell me Mutton-Head, what makes you different then Christophera or someone who claims to see bigfoot for that matter?
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Old 26th May 2006, 09:48 AM   #365
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Priceless.

Have I been tricked?

For anyone who cares, I've had my account un-suspended, but my posts are subject to moderation.
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Old 26th May 2006, 10:40 AM   #366
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I know this has been said before but, this from a poster at LC:

Quote:
But feel free to stay in fairy-land where government is benevolent, and you still have a say in how the country is run.
is exactly what kills me about the truth movement.

I don't have to do anything. I don't have to write my congresspeople, I don't have to volunteer, I don't even have to vote. Because it doesn't help anything. A perfect excuse for laziness.
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Old 26th May 2006, 10:43 AM   #367
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And have these folks all left the United States? I doubt it.
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Old 26th May 2006, 10:48 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
1. They are designed to have much more vertical strength than horizontal strength
But they have NO diagonal strength. Why would they? If the building is tilted at 30 degrees, you've got much worse problems than trying to keep it intact.

Quote:
2. Most importantly, it has never happened. I can not go on Google and find an example of something that has never happened. That is silly.
Of course it is silly, as are you for bringing it up.
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Old 26th May 2006, 10:58 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
Sorry, but the fact that they’re experts, only makes me more suspicious.
Then you're unlikely to ever to understand anything, since experts are the source of knowledge.

Quote:
So, let’s get to my suspicions. First, some background. Anybody please correct any errors that you think I have made:
Gladly!

Quote:
My biggest question has always been how did the core columns break apart?
Millions of pounds of concrete and steel fell on them. Next question.

Quote:
Or, how did they bend upon themselves in a “Z”-like pattern such that the top of the building fell straight downward?
Gravity.

Quote:
That's the "fell in it's footprint," concept. The center of gravity of the building never deviated horizontally.
What force would have caused it to deviate horizontally?

Quote:
No, I don’t build skyscrapers,
OBviously.

Quote:
but I have been told that the core columns are essential to the buildings vertical strength. In my understanding, they make sure that floors do not pancake immediately after the building is finished.
...the hell...?

Quote:
In my understanding, they are made of pieces of steel which are approx 3 stories high, and are welded together. I also believe that they are all cross-braced to each other.
Are we still talking about the WTC, or buildings in general?

Quote:
Does anybody disagree with any of these points?
Disagree? I couldn't even understand half of them.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:02 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
...In my opinion, firemen saying they heard/saw/felt explosives is good evidence. I would consider them reasonable experts in the field. Not ultimate experts, but reasonable....
Why should firemen be "reasonable experts" about explosives? They have expertise in dealing with the aftermath of explosiONS, and in anticpating when explosiONS may occur during a fire. That has nothing to do with expertise in explosiVES.

Dave

Edited to fix quote
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:12 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
Thanks to Manny for the fire fighters union. However, I have to admit that it makes me chuckle. I can hardly even get MY union representatives to call me back, and I pay them $800 bucks a year. Ha!
Your union didn't lose 343 members on 9-11, nor is it's membership being called, to a man, cowards by an intellectually dishonest group of people trying to deflect blame from the people who killed those members.

Call them or stop citing firemen.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:18 AM   #372
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Hoo Nelly! (Or is it Hoo Doggy?)

I thought I was taking Gravy's advice by sticking to one subject, (Good advice Gravy) but I see I need to further refine so we are only talking about one thing at a time.
(Oh now I remember, it's "Good Gravy!")

For now, a reply



L'Ambiance Plaza

The total collapse of a building under construction in Bridgeport, Connecticut has been cited as an example total progressive collapse. On April 23, 1987, a planned sixteen-story building about halfway through its construction, collapsed due to deficient temporary connections. The colapse killed 28 workers. 1

This diagram shows the state of the building's construction at the tie of the collapse. (Figure by Rachel Martin)
The building, which consisted of two adjacent towers, employed the lift-slab method of construction, patented by Youtz and Slick in 1948. This method consists of fabricating all of the floor slabs as a stack at ground level, then elevating the slabs up into their final positions using a hydraulic lifting apparatus. 2




I guess the "structural engineers" amongst you who suggested this one failed to notice the totally different construction technique, the fact that they were temporary supports, and the fact that the building wasn't completed.

My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:23 AM   #373
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Manny, honestly, stop with the accusations. I know that 343 firmen were murdered. I don't believe all of the perpetrators were accounted for. Or at the very least, all of the pertinent details have been published by the NIST. Do you think that I'm lying? I'm sorry if you do.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:25 AM   #374
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I'm also sorry that you think I'm "Intellectually dis-honest." I'm not. You may not see my point, but that does not make me dis-honest.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:28 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.
I gave you a link:

http://www.restoringearth.co.uk/educ...ilure/pw3.shtm

Or do you discount it since it was not a complete pancaking? Which would not happen with the lesser volume of material above the failure point.

Do you consider the Phildelphia Fire Department to be cowards for fearing a 'Pancake collapse' of the Meridian Plaza building?

And how many buildings on the world were hit by fuel-laden planes at top speed and survied?

I would also add the Ronan Point Apartment collapse. Not a complete collapse ( a corner of the building just collapsed). This was due to a gas explosion and poor construction. But part of it collpased, symetrically and in pancake fashion.

There is also the Sampoong Department Store collapse. One moment it was there... the next it was gone. Pancake collapse. Not fully a steel structured building, howwever.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:29 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
I'm also sorry that you think I'm "Intellectually dis-honest." I'm not. You may not see my point, but that does not make me dis-honest.
212-683-4832
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:30 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter View Post
Actually, I'm kind of honored that I was chosen as the chop point. Haven't been here more than a few days and as many posts and I saw myself as starting a massive thread. I haven't had this much reaction to something I wrote since I started my day-by-day history of World War II 11 years ago.

Of course, that was split between folks who loved it and those who were torqued off that I dishonored the Italian Army or didn't include the 99th Messkit Repair Battalion.
Could you post a link to your website? It interests me very much.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:33 AM   #378
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Smile Moving from WTC to WW2

Originally Posted by Pardalis View Post
Could you post a link to your website? It interests me very much.
With pleasure...if I could figure out how to do a signature block, I would put it in there:

http://www.usswashington.com/dl_index.htm


Read and enjoy. Comments, criticism, and links are welcome. My e-mail address is somewhere on it.

And a WW2 comment on WTC: my British relatives and friends were immediately taken back to the Blitz, when they saw the TV footage. And one of them reminded me that they had to put up with 9/11 every night.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:34 AM   #379
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Quote:
My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it has never happened.

So what?

Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can never happen.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:34 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
L'Ambiance Plaza

The total collapse of a building under construction in Bridgeport, Connecticut has been cited as an example total progressive collapse. On April 23, 1987, a planned sixteen-story building about halfway through its construction, collapsed due to deficient temporary connections. The colapse killed 28 workers. 1

This diagram shows the state of the building's construction at the tie of the collapse. (Figure by Rachel Martin)
The building, which consisted of two adjacent towers, employed the lift-slab method of construction, patented by Youtz and Slick in 1948. This method consists of fabricating all of the floor slabs as a stack at ground level, then elevating the slabs up into their final positions using a hydraulic lifting apparatus. 2

"This diagram"? What diagram?

You have more than 15 posts now, so you can use links to show us your evidence.

Are you ever going to get around to showing us the math involved in your first post?
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:35 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter View Post
With pleasure...if I could figure out how to do a signature block, I would put it in there:

http://www.usswashington.com/dl_index.htm


Read and enjoy. Comments, criticism, and links are welcome. My e-mail address is somewhere on it.

And a WW2 comment on WTC: my British relatives and friends were immediately taken back to the Blitz, when they saw the TV footage. And one of them reminded me that they had to put up with 9/11 every night.
(Kiwiwriter: click on "User CP" near the top, second from left, for all your avataring and signaturing needs.)
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:36 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter View Post
With pleasure...if I could figure out how to do a signature block, I would put it in there:
Just click on the User CP link in near the top of your screen, then go to Edit Signature.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:37 AM   #383
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Smile Couldn't find it

Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
(Kiwiwriter: click on "User CP" near the top, second from left, for all your avataring and signaturing needs.)
Found "User Cp." But I didn't find the avatar and signature blocks on that page.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:38 AM   #384
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Help please!
I'm debating the "thermite" claim on another board.
Last week I ran across (and I think it was linked in a post here) one individual's lengthy and well thought out rebuttal to the claim that thermite would have been used in the "demolition". I can no longer find the link to it. Can someone help me with that. Thanks.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:38 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter View Post
Found "User Cp." But I didn't find the avatar and signature blocks on that page.
Under "Settings & Options" on the left at the top you should see "Edit Avatar" and "Edit Signature".
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:39 AM   #386
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Smile Not there

Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Under "Settings & Options" on the left at the top you should see "Edit Avatar" and "Edit Signature".
Didn't see it there. I saw the list, but it isn't there. I saw e-mail, options, and password, but that was it.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:40 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
100% right on what I'm trying to convey. Thank you Macky, that was it exactly. I see your mathematical explanation. (I admit, it's been years since college physics.) There seems to be dispute though over those numbers for mass. Also, I believe that 30% to crush the structure and throw material and pulverize concrete is not enough. I believe it would be much higher. My intuition (and other researchers) tells me that even 100% would not have been enough. But, that's only my intuition, so for now, that discussion will have to wait.

[snip]
I've been reading this thread from the beginning (I know, I know... I just can't look away), and I've only chimed in a few times when I see something odd.

Mutton-Head - One of the arguments that you use for a controlled demoliton is that a normal collapse would not be able to pulverise the concrete. This is the concrete that we see getting thrown from the building during the collapse, right?

So, my question is... how does a controlled demolition account for the pulverised concrete? The FLOORS were concrete, not the walls. Are you insinuating that the floors were unnecessarily wired with explosives as well? If the explosives didn't pulverise the concrete, what did?
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:41 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Sultanist View Post
Help please!
I'm debating the "thermite" claim on another board.
Last week I ran across (and I think it was linked in a post here) one individual's lengthy and well thought out rebuttal to the claim that thermite would have been used in the "demolition". I can no longer find the link to it. Can someone help me with that. Thanks.
Huntsman's comments in post #344 are probably not the thing you are looking for, but they are quite important.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:41 AM   #389
chipmunk stew
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Originally Posted by Sultanist View Post
Help please!
I'm debating the "thermite" claim on another board.
Last week I ran across (and I think it was linked in a post here) one individual's lengthy and well thought out rebuttal to the claim that thermite would have been used in the "demolition". I can no longer find the link to it. Can someone help me with that. Thanks.
This it?: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...87#post1663687
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:44 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Kiwiwriter View Post
Didn't see it there. I saw the list, but it isn't there. I saw e-mail, options, and password, but that was it.
Sounds like a job for a mod.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:45 AM   #391
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If it was last week it's probably in the other loose change thread. I posted some remarks about explosives there, as well.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:46 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post
My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.
Wait there a second Mutton, this is not a challenge match, it's a discussion forum. Why do you feel the need to challenge us?
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:48 AM   #393
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Quote:
My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.
WTC 1 and WTC 2.

There, challenge beaten. Next?
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:49 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Mutton-Head View Post

My challenge still stands, find any where in the world, any where in the history of buildings, an example of a steel framed tower that pancaked symmetrically.
First of all, ask people on the top floor on a windy day if there was horizontal strength. Second, YOU find a steel framed structure that was hit by a plane full of fuel and burned for hours and fell over sideways. Third, lets just say there was bombs in the building and the government knew.....what was plan B if the demo failed to go off properly? Have you seen how many times demo teams have to redo something that's not wired properly? Why were they too stupid to say there were bombs and the terrorists did it just to allow for the so-called witnesses? The government is so smart in planning it but too stupid in the coverup? You don't think they figured on possible problems or witnesses in cd? If I were the mastermind: "Priority #1 gents is the explanation of the explosions that will obviously be heard be thousands!! hell, millions!! Add it to the list of terrorist acts, its np. Oh, by the way, make sure we find a camel with a chemical bomb on it when we invade Iraq...." HONESTLY
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:50 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by Sultanist View Post
Help please!
I'm debating the "thermite" claim on another board.
Last week I ran across (and I think it was linked in a post here) one individual's lengthy and well thought out rebuttal to the claim that thermite would have been used in the "demolition". I can no longer find the link to it. Can someone help me with that. Thanks.
Links to posts re: thermite (courtesy of Gravy's awesome new thread index)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1699 (my personal favorite)
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1701
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1702
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1712
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1713
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=1723

Btw, you'll want to grab a copy of Gravy's awesome spreadsheet that indexes the posts here by category/subject, date, and poster. Download it here: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=108756
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:52 AM   #396
Pardalis
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Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post
WTC 1 and WTC 2.

There, challenge beaten. Next?
That's perfect Huntsman LOL! Damn you're quick!
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:53 AM   #397
Regnad Kcin
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Originally Posted by Mutton Head
Sorry, but the fact that they’re experts, only makes me more suspicious.
Say, doc, I appreciate your diagnosis. But seeing as how you went to medical school for a bunch of years, interned some more, and have been for some time a consultant, lecturer, and award-winning writer in your field...I'm, well, suspicious. I'm gonna see what my florist thinks about this pain in my chest.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:56 AM   #398
Tailgater
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Say, doc, I appreciate your diagnosis. But seeing as how you went to medical school for a bunch of years, interned some more, and have been for some time a consultant, lecturer, and award-winning writer in your field...I'm, well, suspicious. I'm gonna see what my florist thinks about this pain in my chest.
Or Dr. Jones since he's a REAL doctor.
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Old 26th May 2006, 11:57 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
As a continuation to my previous post, let's examine the issue from another viewpoint. Let's look at the hypothesis that the airliners crashing into the building started a chain of events that caused them to collapse.

The most obvious evidence that this is true is that the buildings were observed collapsing only once in their almost 30-year history, and airplanes crashed into them only once in the same period. The crashes occured first, the buildings collapsed second. This in itself is not sufficient proof. Correlation does not imply causation. Just because A preceded B does not mean that A caused B. However in this case, since both A and B were unique, it is extremely likely that A caused B. We need corroborating evidence, though.

The hypothesis states that the crash sites resulted in structural weakness in the buildings, and the weight of the buildings ABOVE the crash site caused the collapses. Here's where the corroborating evidence comes in: If this were true, then we would expect the building with the MOST weight above the weakened area to collapse first.

(This may seem to be similar reasoning to the "salamander" test described in my last post -- the main difference is that THIS test is designed to CORROBORATE very compelling already-existing evidence.)

And guess what...THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED! Of course, you could always say that explosives were set off in this way to MAKE it consistent with the "official version", but that raises several unanswered questions. Why, at this point in the investigation, is it necessary to posit explosives? How could the "evildoers" behind the conspiracy foresee the need for this corroborating evidence, and yet leave so many of what CT's call "inconsistencies"?

I'm not saying, of course, that these two pieces of evidence were sufficient to explain the collapse. However, as more and more corroborating evidence is added, it becomes less and less likely that the hypothesis is wrong. Such corroborating evidence is plentiful in the official reports that CT's find so questionable.

All the CT's have is purported "inconsistencies", which are not consistent with each other, are not sufficient to disprove the rock solid "official" hypothesis, and are ultimately not helpful in determining exactly what happened.
That's just perfectly said Aggle.
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Old 26th May 2006, 12:03 PM   #400
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Quote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it has never happened.

So what?

Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can never happen.
As of now, the only thing I'm discussing is buildings pancaking. The reason for that is the only way to come to any kind of consensus is by taking it a step at a time. I think Gravy agrees with me on that.

Quote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it has never happened.
This where you start.


Quote:
So what?

Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can never happen.
This is a conclusion where you may or may not end up, depending upon other factors. But no meaningful discussion can take place until that first step is agreed upon. So for now, until a unanimous agreement is made, I will only be discussing whether or not high-rise steel structures have ever pancaked. I will not respond to accusations about me calling firmen cowards for not running into buildings.

Buildings pancaking. (Falling symmetrically downward, in their footprints.)

Quote:
I gave you a link:

http://www.restoringearth.co.uk/educ...ilure/pw3.shtm

Or do you discount it since it was not a complete pancaking? Which would not happen with the lesser volume of material above the failure point.
Yes I consider that to be very different. You're conclusion that the volume of material is the culprit is pure speculation.

So, once again, (Maybe it should be a new thread?)

I'm contending that a high-rise steel structure has never collapsed "pancake-style."

That is my challenge. If any body is up for it, throw your submissions into the ring.
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