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Old 10th September 2006, 09:29 PM   #81
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In my opinion, I cannot see how any rational person could ponder that question for more than a minute and fail to conclude the whole Loose Change CT is bullsh*t.
A-men from the choir!
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Old 10th September 2006, 10:44 PM   #82
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I did think about asking why people simply wearing anti-Bush t-shirts, standing quietly, not bothering anyone, are removed from Bush rallies...but these guys openly declare the government killed its own citizens, and no one bats an eye at them....
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Old 10th September 2006, 10:53 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Is this college or high school ( I know you're a teacher, not sure where though)?
You know (s)he's a teacher? How so? If (s)he's a teacher, I would like to think (s)he wouldn't have to ask the question in the OP.
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Old 11th September 2006, 12:06 AM   #84
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I was studying for my license, and I've talked about it often in the last year. Now I'm in mass communications.

Why shouldn't I need to ask the question? Or more correctly, why shouldn't I ask for help framing specific questions?

And it's "she."
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Old 11th September 2006, 10:45 AM   #85
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The group showing the film tonight is called "The Red Pill," the name being taken from the Matrix. Any info on them would be helpful, too. I'm checking them out via search engine.
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Old 11th September 2006, 11:03 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
The group showing the film tonight is called "The Red Pill," the name being taken from the Matrix. Any info on them would be helpful, too. I'm checking them out via search engine.
Probably this 'zine group:
http://colorado.indymedia.org/newswi...4687/index.php
http://colorado.indymedia.org/userme...4_14screen.pdf
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Old 11th September 2006, 11:12 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Also being screened by The Red Pill:
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Old 11th September 2006, 11:31 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Also being screened by The Red Pill:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5a6ef3b7e8.bmp
That Fidel Picture is freaking me out!
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Old 11th September 2006, 12:20 PM   #89
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Thanks for those links; I had not found all of them yet and appreciate the help.

I'm all for people searching for (and even finding) truth. But we all know truth comes in as many shapes and sizes as breakfast cereal, and one has to be specific and discerning in one's search. Sometimes, truth lies, depending on how you approach it and exactly what you ask it.

So, anyway, below are the questions I have asked of The Red Pill. Largely non-confrontational, asking for information or opinion. What do any of you think?

Questions:
1. Tell me something about your group, please. What is the purpose of The Red Pill; is this group connected to the makers of Loose Change, and if so, in what way(s)?

2. Who made the decision to show Loose Change at Mesa, and why?

3. What is your intent in showing this film now, on the fifth anniversary of these events?

4. What do you hope happens as a result of showing this film?

5. Is the showing meant to spark a dialogue, and if so, of what nature and between whom?

6. Do you have any long-term plans for discussing this issue on campus after the showing? If so, what sort of activities related to the film and its premises will you be engaging in on campus after the showing? Will you hold discussion groups, or present your views in the Criterion or other campus media?

7. Will you present a "call to action" after, or as a result of, showing this film?

8. If so, what will you ask students to do in response to the information given in this film?

9. Are you aware of the numerous books, videos, and web sites which debunk the Loose Change film?

10. Have you read any of this material? Why or why not?

11. If yes, which sources, specifically, have you read?

12. If yes, did any of these sources affect or change your opinion of Loose Change? If yes, why and in what way? If no, why not?

13. Are you familiar with WingTV (World Independent News Group)? If so, what is its mission or its purpose, and who is associated with it? Have you visited the site, and do you consider it a valid news source? Do you detect any bias, and if so, what is its nature, and toward what or whom is this bias directed?

14. Are you familiar with The American Free Press (AFP)? What is its mission or purpose, and who is associated with it? Have you visited the site, and do you consider it a valid news source? Do you detect any bias, and if so, what is its nature, and toward what or whom is this bias directed?

15. The following quote is taken from this website:

http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change

"Loose Change, in all of its incarnations, contains a staggering amount of both logical and factual errors. Poor sources, ignorance, and misinterpretation of evidence is rampant. Dylan Avery wants to show people the truth behind September 11, yet in these videos he overlooks and neglects any variety of truth. Loose Change is flawed in almost every regard, and its producers should either cease distributing it or reclassify it as fiction."

How do you respond to this statement?

-------------

I have already e-mailed these to the right person, so I'm giving nothing away by posting them here. If I get responses, I will let you know.
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Old 11th September 2006, 08:26 PM   #90
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Okay, I went. I spoke to them.

Believe it or not, they are not just nice guys, but also admit there are factual errors in Loose Change.

Unfortunately, and you will believe this, they think the fact that such "small, minor errors" exist in all editions of the film (and that the specific errors change in each edition) does not in any way hurt the film or the filmmakers' credibility.

These are basically good guys, who honestly think they're onto something.

This just made me more sad, not less.

The Randi million was brought up. It was cute. "If somebody could prove Loose Change wrong, they'd win that million bucks!"

Me: You mean the million James Randi offers? That million?

"Yeah! That guy! He's cool. But if this were all untrue, someone would sure be rich!"

Yeah.

More later--have class early tomorrow and I just got back. Must study.

Last edited by slingblade; 11th September 2006 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 11th September 2006, 08:32 PM   #91
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Don't you know? The errors are there intentional!! So we would feel pressed to do or own investigation into the 'lies' of 9/11.
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Old 12th September 2006, 03:20 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Bell View Post
Don't you know? The errors are there intentional!! So we would feel pressed to do or own investigation into the 'lies' of 9/11.
They actually said that, didn't they?

As I posted above, to think that anyone takes these guys seriously boggles the mind.

I wonder if they've tried that approach in any of their college classes:

"Hey, um, Professor, you can't, like, mark me down for any mistakes in my paper 'cause, like, I only left those in to make sure you would read it carefully and stuff ... and, oh, yeah, even if I'm wrong, I'm just, like, asking questions, man."

Bukkake, meet Stupid.

Last edited by shuize; 12th September 2006 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 12th September 2006, 05:07 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
They actually said that, didn't they?

As I posted above, to think that anyone takes these guys seriously boggles the mind.

I wonder if they've tried that approach in any of their college classes:

"Hey, um, Professor, you can't, like, mark me down for any mistakes in my paper 'cause, like, I only left those in to make sure you would read it carefully and stuff ... and, oh, yeah, even if I'm wrong, I'm just, like, asking questions, man."

Bukkake, meet Stupid.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=62262
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Old 13th September 2006, 02:26 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
They actually said that, didn't they?
I'm not sure; I have to listen to the recording I made. Haven't done that yet.

I asked if they had visited any debunking sites, and they responded with something like: "Pffft, those sites don't debunk it, they just trash it," but that's not a direct quote.

As I left, one of the members followed me out, to speak with me. I wanted to stay until the end, but couldn't for a couple of reasons. That bugs me a little. Anyway, this guy was very nice, respectful, articulate, sincere....it's too bad for him I had gone forwarned and forearmed, or I could easily have been swayed by him, at least somewhat. But I came away from it feeling he really does believe this, and isn't just gunning for a president he hates, grabbing any excuse to do so. Anyway, during our chat, he admitted some of the mistakes were pretty glaring; he specifically cited the 10 takeoffs and 13 landings, and admitted that was pretty dumb.

That's when I asked him if he didn't think it hurt the credibility, and he said not really, because they keep updating the film as they learn more, and are correcting mistakes. (Shouldn't you make sure you have it right the first time, before you release it?) He said in the next incarnation (The Third Edition!), the comment about Condi Rice calling Willie Brown would be removed, because that didn't happen, either.

I mean, I felt bad for this guy! If you could have been there, and heard him...he's at least got passion, misdirected as it may be. And I appreciated his honesty, as far as he allowed himself to go. But then he started to give me the "faster than freefall" argument and I said, "but doesn't that mean the surrounding debris was falling faster than faster-than-freefall?" So he cut to the plumes of smoke coming from the floors below while the building fell as indicative of explosions. I told him that could be explained as simply smoke pushed out of the windows by downward pressure created as the upper floors fell. "No, seriously, have you looked at it?" ("Several times.") "It's bombs, you can just tell." He mentioned the building being closed, the bombs being planted, and I asked him if he knew it takes months to set up such a thing in much smaller buildings, not mere days. "Not for government demo experts."

Through all of this he was impassioned, but calm, trying for reasonable. I was at least impressed by his control.

He's the kind of guy I would like to bring here and to other sites, and show him what I've seen. I think he might change his mind about some things. I think he's capable of it. I still have questions, too. Lots of them. Yet my biggest problem with Loose Change is not that they think they smell a rat. It's that they go down the street and around the corner to look for the rat, ignoring the house entirely. They aren't asking the right questions, and they're making stuff up to fit the questions they are asking.

If I've learned anything in life, it's that people are capable of anything. I've questioned my government since Watergate. If it could be proven to me, I wouldn't have a problem with accepting it. But these guys aren't proving anything to me beyond that they don't know how to do what they think they're doing.

Yeah, it ticks me off, but it also makes me sad.
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Old 13th September 2006, 06:15 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
I mean, I felt bad for this guy! If you could have been there, and heard him...he's at least got passion, misdirected as it may be. And I appreciated his honesty, as far as he allowed himself to go. But then he started to give me the "faster than freefall" argument and I said, "but doesn't that mean the surrounding debris was falling faster than faster-than-freefall?" So he cut to the plumes of smoke coming from the floors below while the building fell as indicative of explosions. I told him that could be explained as simply smoke pushed out of the windows by downward pressure created as the upper floors fell. "No, seriously, have you looked at it?" ("Several times.") "It's bombs, you can just tell." He mentioned the building being closed, the bombs being planted, and I asked him if he knew it takes months to set up such a thing in much smaller buildings, not mere days. "Not for government demo experts."
Actually, he's probably right on that last point.

It'd take twice as long for government demo experts

I should know, working with engineers in the military (and with a brother in Special Forces) I've worked with our government demo experts.
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Old 13th September 2006, 06:51 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
Yet my biggest problem with Loose Change is not that they think they smell a rat. It's that they go down the street and around the corner to look for the rat, ignoring the house entirely.
That's a pretty good metaphor. I think I'll save that for a rainy day.

Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
If I've learned anything in life, it's that people are capable of anything. I've questioned my government since Watergate.
I must not have been reading closely enough. I though you were in your early 20's!
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Old 13th September 2006, 08:20 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by G-K-4 View Post
That's a pretty good metaphor. I think I'll save that for a rainy day.
I rather liked it as well.


Quote:
I must not have been reading closely enough. I though you were in your early 20's!
Alas, no. I'm an old lady of 47.
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