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Old 8th October 2015, 12:41 PM   #81
Giordano
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The last post actually raises an interesting question as to real laser-based razors. The amount of energy required is certain to create damage in the light source and the light guides over time. So even a laser razor would need to have these expensive items replaced at some point; probably within a year or so. Currently an edge razor can cost less than a dollar and last for weeks. How cheap would a laser razor have to be and how long would a laser razor need to last to be competitive?
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Old 8th October 2015, 06:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Razors are not lifetime products. Whether they're traditional or electric, the blades dull over time and need to be replaced. The only difference is whether one replaces merely the blade unit itself, or the entire razor. The "new and improved" tactic is done to gain an advantage over competitors, not maintain an existing market. There is very little that they could do with a laser-based shaving system that would justify the high price tag aside from making it smaller and more portable, or less energy-intensive, which is highly unlikely to happen in my lifetime. There are no parts that would be expected to wear out under normal use.

I have no idea who these competitors are.
Also, I'm too lazy to take a pic of my "the best a man can get" cos it cost me almost £100 two years ago.
Blades wear out. Their housing doesn't.
They sell the housing.
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Old 8th October 2015, 06:48 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Giordano
The amount of energy required is certain to create damage in the light source and the light guides over time. So even a laser razor would need to have these expensive items replaced at some point; probably within a year or so.
Yup. A good analogy would be a photo-ionization detector (PID for those who are familiar with air monitoring). Those bulbs last for a long time, but not indefinitely. Then there are the issues of calibration--making sure the wavelength is correct, making sure it's on-target, etc.
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Old 12th October 2015, 08:14 AM   #84
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The more I look at this thing, the less possible it seems to be. If not an outright scam, then at least unworkably overambitious.

The sheer mechanics of it just don't work. There is no way this thing can shave as close as a blade without causing skin damage. If this is based on fibre flexion, then the fiber will have to ride a small but noticeable distance above the skin, which means it will not be able to take the hair right down to skin level. Having the fibre ride down on the skin risks flexion from skin contact, and therefore skin damage. This is especially true with flat-cross-section negroid hair, which tends to curl down onto the skin (and the darker skin further risks damage).

On top of that, how will it cope with unevenly-textured skin? Features such as raised scars (keloids), and bumps could conceivably cause flexion and thereby risk skin damage.

I just cannot see any way this can work the way they claim.
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Old 12th October 2015, 10:48 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
If this is based on fibre flexion, then the fiber will have to ride a small but noticeable distance above the skin, which means it will not be able to take the hair right down to skin level.
Not only that, but a multi-blade razor pulls the hair up slightly before cutting so it's pretty much flush.
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Old 12th October 2015, 05:32 PM   #86
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Tell me again why I'm honest? :/
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Old 12th October 2015, 05:36 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Tell me again why I'm honest? :/
Character flaw?
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Old 12th October 2015, 05:49 PM   #88
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$4,004,733
pledged of $160,000 goal
Funding Suspended


Funding for this project was suspended by Kickstarter about 2 hours ago.


Well, that's a shocker! Lots of push back in the blogosphere. I was pleased to see that this thread made it into the Wiki article on the subject, but not showing up in google search just yet.

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Old 12th October 2015, 07:46 PM   #89
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Why would they suspend it? Don't they get a percentage?
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Old 13th October 2015, 03:03 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Why would they suspend it? Don't they get a percentage?

My guess: "Emergency bail-out before it becomes a scandal"

Kickstarter called the bluff, and now they have no problem. No-one has lost any money and no-one will be dragged off to court or have to run the gauntlet of public humiliation.
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Old 13th October 2015, 03:24 AM   #91
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Already up on Indiegogo

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/t...tury-shaving#/

With flexible funding, so bye bye money for a lot of people.
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Old 13th October 2015, 06:41 AM   #92
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Skarp moves to Indiegogo

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Why would they suspend it? Don't they get a percentage?
Maybe Kickstarter are trying to do the right thing? There has been quite a bit of negative feedback from people who understand the physics behind these claims.

I'm surprised Skarp has decided to persist in this endeavor, since their engineers and backers must surely understand by now the impossibility of the project with the features and the form factor proposed, regardless of the amount of funding. Their claim of having found the magic laser wavelength for severing chromophores is clearly not yet supported by their "working prototype" which uses green light, while the illustrations clearly show the use of red light.

Their patent does not disclose any chromophore specific laser wavelength, but a fair reading of their promotion appears to suggest that this is the case. The latest "prototype" update video that was posted on Kickstarter was very unclear but appeared to use a hot wire rather than a laser for cutting hairs. This video and the implied endorsement video of a respected skin specialist no longer appear in the Indiegogo fund raising promotion.

This is beginning to remind me of another seemingly doomed Indiegogo project which its promoters just can't seem to abandon.

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Old 13th October 2015, 06:53 AM   #93
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As to the "secret" chromophore: if all hair absorbed at a single chromophore in visible light, they would all have the same color in them which would be detectable by eye by definition. Black hair shares some pigments with red hair, but blond hair has very little visible pigment- that is why it is blond. So this special common chromophore has to be in the non-visible spectrum- UV or infrared. All the green and red laser light prototypes are therefore wasteful and are just for show.

Now an infrared laser would probably, if strong enough, burn off many types of hair- and skin, etc. This would be a problem for the reasons discussed above. Given both hair and skin are primarily keratin, and have been extensively studied, I don't think that there is a chromatophore for all colors of hair that would not also burn skin.
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Old 13th October 2015, 07:12 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
As to the "secret" chromophore: if all hair absorbed at a single chromophore in visible light, they would all have the same color in them which would be detectable by eye by definition. Black hair shares some pigments with red hair, but blond hair has very little visible pigment- that is why it is blond. So this special common chromophore has to be in the non-visible spectrum- UV or infrared.

They also didn't seem to address what to do about hairs that lack chromophores, such as white and albino.
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Old 13th October 2015, 07:40 AM   #95
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Word travels fast when "scam" is suspected. "Skarp" is in the news with lots of google hits that are not very flattering.

Quote:
But it seems that dream might have been too good to be true, at least from Kickstarter's perspective. The crowdfunding site has officially booted the project from its platform for not presenting evidence of a working prototype.

In short, the service is afraid it's a scam.
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Unfortunately, Kickstarter wasn't impressed, for the simple reason that there is no public evidence that the laser-based razor actually exists in the form described -- or anticipated -- in its marketing materials.
Quote:
The Skarp Laser Razor received the ban hammer from Kickstarter earlier today. As shared in the comments from an earlier article, apparently the Skarp campaign was banned as Kickstarter deemed the project as in violation of its terms of operation. As covered previously, Skarp did not have a working prototype Ė something Kickstarter does not like:
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Old 13th October 2015, 09:51 AM   #96
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Do not buy one of these, this is a scam!!!

Wait till next year, they will come out with one that has two lazers, that shaves even closer.

Last edited by Nakani; 13th October 2015 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 13th October 2015, 10:20 AM   #97
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It's possible they'll be able to produce a version that kind of sort of works for some people. Like the NoNo.

Here's the most charitable scenario I can come up with: the secret that they're protecting isn't actually a secret chromatophore-busting wavelength, but a proprietary cross-sectional shape and material for the fiber. In other words, the fiber isn't cylindrical and it has a directionally specific "leading edge." Maybe they've done math that shows that such a fiber will intensely concentrate even a low-power beam on a point contact with a hair on the leading edge while broader contact e.g. with skin or water droplets, or contact along any surface other than the leading edge, would not concentrate the power nearly as much. Actually fabricating a fiber to those specifications is what they need the money for, which is why they can't show a fully working demo using off the shelf laser and fiber optic components.
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Old 13th October 2015, 11:09 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Here's the most charitable scenario I can come up with: the secret that they're protecting isn't actually a secret chromatophore-busting wavelength, but a proprietary cross-sectional shape and material for the fiber. In other words, the fiber isn't cylindrical and it has a directionally specific "leading edge." Maybe they've done math that shows that such a fiber will intensely concentrate even a low-power beam on a point contact with a hair on the leading edge while broader contact e.g. with skin or water droplets, or contact along any surface other than the leading edge, would not concentrate the power nearly as much. Actually fabricating a fiber to those specifications is what they need the money for, which is why they can't show a fully working demo using off the shelf laser and fiber optic components.

Except that that doesn't address any of the glaring physical problems inherent to the mechanics of the laser fibre, dealing with unpigmented hairs and/or dark skin, the problem of rough-textured skin, and the sheer mechanics of it preventing the possibility of a skin-close shave that even cheap multi-blade razors are capable of.
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Old 13th October 2015, 01:21 PM   #99
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I'm reading the comments on the Indigogo campaign and it amazes me at how people are willing to just throw their money away at something that is so likely to be a complete scam. How can people so easily duped even have money to throw away to begin with? Many of them are saying things like:


Quote:
you gotta do better than that piss green video with a 2 minute shave for a wrist. I want this to work, but as you clamied. not some lousy comprimise that takes 20 minutes to do my face or private areas. i get that done the wasteful old fashioned way with blades.

Im trusting you, but you lost the kickstarter for a VERY good reason. get one working prototype that delivers, JUST one. that delivers the quick and easy shave you promised. this is why im backing just one razor instead




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Good morning! Glad you rebounded so well. was planning to send you cash direct when your new campaign came up! Thanks for saving me a trip to the post office to buy a stamp!

Yeah... because who needs any kind of consumer protection for their money? At least Kickstarter required a working prototype.
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Old 13th October 2015, 01:55 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by foophil View Post
Yeah... because who needs any kind of consumer protection for their money? At least Kickstarter required a working prototype.

Some days it seems ethics are the only reason I'm not rich. There are a lot of people out there with more money than brains.
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Old 13th October 2015, 02:00 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except that that doesn't address any of the glaring physical problems inherent to the mechanics of the laser fibre, dealing with unpigmented hairs and/or dark skin, the problem of rough-textured skin, and the sheer mechanics of it preventing the possibility of a skin-close shave that even cheap multi-blade razors are capable of.

I was thinking that an asymmetrical-cross-section fiber might be mounted flush along the edge of a flat surface, forming the "edge" of a "blade." Instead of being strung across open air like in the dubious demo. That form factor would help with shaving close. If it was driven directly toward the skin (in a way that would cause a cut or nick with a blade) the laser energy would end up escaping over too large an area to have enough power to do damage. In my version, the shape of the fiber focuses any escaped light onto a very thin line parallel to and just in front of the fiber. It's when all of it escapes at the point of contact with a hair shaft that it's intense enough to cut.

I was also thinking that the whole chromatophore and color issue could be a red herring. Either that or they're talking about Eumelanins, which do occur in gray, black, brown, and blond hair but not in white.

However, as I said, that's the most charitable possible scenario I can come up with. It's not the most likely. I'm going by how I would try to make it work if I had that problem to solve, rather than by what their patents and descriptions actually say.
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Old 13th October 2015, 02:29 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Character flaw?
Sometimes I think it is.
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Old 13th October 2015, 02:56 PM   #103
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With 3million+ in play, I wonder if they'll sue Kickstarter for booting them?
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Old 13th October 2015, 03:10 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I was thinking that an asymmetrical-cross-section fiber might be mounted flush along the edge of a flat surface, forming the "edge" of a "blade." Instead of being strung across open air like in the dubious demo. That form factor would help with shaving close. If it was driven directly toward the skin (in a way that would cause a cut or nick with a blade) the laser energy would end up escaping over too large an area to have enough power to do damage.
Nope, all of the laser energy will escape from the fiber at the first point of contact. If it can burn a hair, it can also burn a hair-sized spot along the line of contact with the skin.
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Old 13th October 2015, 04:06 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
I was thinking that an asymmetrical-cross-section fiber might be mounted flush along the edge of a flat surface, forming the "edge" of a "blade."
I don't think that's mechanically possible, since the fibre depends on a specific angle of incidence for the photons to be internally reflected along the core and not escape the cladding. If the fibre shape is too far out of round, that would break the incidence angle the same way that flexion of the fibre would.

Quote:
I was also thinking that the whole chromatophore and color issue could be a red herring. Either that or they're talking about Eumelanins, which do occur in gray, black, brown, and blond hair but not in white.
Chromophore, not chromatophore. Mammals do not have chromatophores. Chromophores are the sections of complex molecules that determine the colour of the material, by absorbing and reflecting certain wavelengths of light.

In order for the laser energy to act on the fibre, the fibre must absorb a minimum percentage of that energy, instead of transmitting it. Melanin is fairly efficient at absorbing light energy within a certain range. The more translucent the fibre, the less energy is absorbed, and the less likely it is to cut. That is why laser and IPL hair removal systems do not work effectively on very pale hair or very dark skin. This is the primary technological hurdle that the Skarp team has to overcome, and why they refer to a magical laser frequency that will affect not only standard pigmented hairs, but lightly-pigmented and unpigmented hair as well.

IR light is capable of deep penetration of skin, but also penetrates translucent hair, and won't be absorbed sufficiently to burn the hair. A UV laser would need to be used to have a chance of finding molecules in visibly translucent hair that are capable of absorbing enough energy to burn the hair.

Which really makes no sense why they'd be concentrating on a razor. If they really did have a laser capable of affecting unpigmented hair, they'd make a killing replacing existing hair-removal technology, and could use the money from that to develop their razor.

Actually, no, they couldn't now that I think about it. If it affects unpigmented hair, it will affect lightly-pigmented and unpigmented skin as well, which existing technologies do to a small degree, so it would be effectively useless there.

Either way, we're back to the mechanical problem of the laser fibre, which has no way of cutting hair back as far as a blade without risking skin damage.
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Old 13th October 2015, 04:07 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
With 3million+ in play, I wonder if they'll sue Kickstarter for booting them?

Given that they violated Kickstarter's terms of use; any attempt to sue would be immediately futile.
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Old 13th October 2015, 04:13 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Given that they violated Kickstarter's terms of use; any attempt to sue would be immediately futile.
That's what I'd want the judge to decide. With luck, Kickstarter would settle before it got to trial. For that kind of money, it might be worth it.

For example, if the project violated the terms of service, why did Kickstarter allow it at all?

I'm sure a clever lawyer could find lots more to argue about.
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Old 13th October 2015, 04:31 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
I beg to differ. Gillette sell sharp objects that cut your facial hair. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet every year they tell me they've invented a new and improved version. They make a fortune from fooling gullible folk who believe such nonsense. They resell the same lifetime product over and over to the same people.

Reminds me of this "the Onion" classic :

Fixed.

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Old 13th October 2015, 04:52 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Reminds me of this "the Onion" classic:

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/***...e-blades-11056
Doesn't work after the auto censor inserted asterisks. Maybe make a tinyurl?
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Old 13th October 2015, 04:55 PM   #110
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Maybe if they can make their optical fiber strong as steel and about 1 micron diameter, like the edge of a razor sharp knife, it would cut hair.

Cool microscopic pictures of blade edges.

http://www.razoredgeknives.com/?p=488
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Old 13th October 2015, 07:28 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That's what I'd want the judge to decide. With luck, Kickstarter would settle before it got to trial. For that kind of money, it might be worth it.

Terms of Use:

* We have the right to cancel any pledge to any project, at any time and for any reason.
* We have the right to reject, cancel, interrupt, remove, or suspend any project at any time and for any reason.

Kickstarter is not liable for any damages as a result of any of these actions, and it is our policy not to comment on the reasons for any such action.
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Old 13th October 2015, 11:50 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Terms of Use:

* We have the right to cancel any pledge to any project, at any time and for any reason.
* We have the right to reject, cancel, interrupt, remove, or suspend any project at any time and for any reason.

Kickstarter is not liable for any damages as a result of any of these actions, and it is our policy not to comment on the reasons for any such action.
Sure, you have the right to do that, but doing it cost me a bucket full of money, money I think you ought to reimburse me for.

Your turn.
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Old 14th October 2015, 07:14 AM   #113
luchog
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
For example, if the project violated the terms of service, why did Kickstarter allow it at all?

Because, like nearly everyone else on the 'Net, Kickstarter staff does not preview or vett postings before they go live, they simply react when violations are reported to them. It's the responsibility of users to abide by the user agreement. That's why they, like pretty much everyone else, require the users to read and indicate acceptance of the user agreement before posting, to eliminate any of those specious "we didn't it was wrong" arguments.

Quote:
I'm sure a clever lawyer could find lots more to argue about.

No, a clever lawyer could see how stupid any attempt to sue would be, given the terms of the user agreement. It's only stupid and exceptionally greedy lawyers who end up bringing these sorts of frivolous lawsuits. Settlement of such suits pretty much never occurs, and the vast majority are dismissed by judges as frivolous, commonly before the defendant's attorneys have the opportunity to move for a dismissal on the same grounds.
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Old 14th October 2015, 08:55 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Because, like nearly everyone else on the 'Net, Kickstarter staff does not preview or vett postings before they go live, they simply react when violations are reported to them. It's the responsibility of users to abide by the user agreement. That's why they, like pretty much everyone else, require the users to read and indicate acceptance of the user agreement before posting, to eliminate any of those specious "we didn't it was wrong" arguments.

No, a clever lawyer could see how stupid any attempt to sue would be, given the terms of the user agreement. It's only stupid and exceptionally greedy lawyers who end up bringing these sorts of frivolous lawsuits. Settlement of such suits pretty much never occurs, and the vast majority are dismissed by judges as frivolous, commonly before the defendant's attorneys have the opportunity to move for a dismissal on the same grounds.
This is the only similar one I could find, but I didn't find out if it was dismissed or settled: http://techinamerica.com/kickstarter...thr-exclusive/

ETA: Found a follow up:
The Ducotes sued for breach of contract, fraudulent inducement and unjust enrichment. They demanded more than $1 million in lost sales for the book. The lawsuit has now been settled and dismissed. From the looks of court papers filed on Thursday in a New York federal court, it appears that Kickstarter can be declared the winner.

No money has changed hands, and a stipulation states the Ducotes "discovered and acknowledged that certain of the allegations in the Complaints relating to Kickstarter's suspension of the Project are incorrect, and that Kickstarter's decision to suspend the Project was in accordance with its Community Guidelines and Terms of Use."

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Old 14th October 2015, 09:23 AM   #115
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May I assume that the money pledged to a Kickstarter campaign that is suspended is either never collected or is returned to the original owner?

If true, then I don't see how a discovered fraud has hurt the want-to-be investor. If false, then does the money become property of Kickstarter or the campaign organizer? If the later, then I presume that one can sue the campaign organizer directly.
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Old 14th October 2015, 10:21 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
May I assume that the money pledged to a Kickstarter campaign that is suspended is either never collected or is returned to the original owner?

It's not collected. Pledges don't become payments until the campaign ends successfully (having met its target).
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Old 14th October 2015, 11:32 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
No money has changed hands, and a stipulation states the Ducotes "discovered and acknowledged that certain of the allegations in the Complaints relating to Kickstarter's suspension of the Project are incorrect, and that Kickstarter's decision to suspend the Project was in accordance with its Community Guidelines and Terms of Use."[/i]

Like I said, only an idiot lawyer.
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Old 14th October 2015, 12:14 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No, a clever lawyer could see how stupid any attempt to sue would be, given the terms of the user agreement.

That is not entirely correct. Terms of service are voided in courts all the time. Especially catch-all sections such as the classic "We are not liable for anything ever." kind. Not to mention the "The user agrees to never sue us." one. There are many judges that absolutely hate those things.

What mostly matters is how wronged the party was and whether the average person would think they were fairly wronged.
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Old 14th October 2015, 01:16 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It's not collected. Pledges don't become payments until the campaign ends successfully (having met its target).
Right! And it doesn't have to offer a product. I gave to the T1 Trust (Building a replica PRR T1 Duplex locomotive) kickstarter and they used it to contract for casting of the driver wheels. I got a "thank you". That sort only needs to reach it's goal to be funded.
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Old 14th October 2015, 02:53 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
That is not entirely correct. Terms of service are voided in courts all the time. Especially catch-all sections such as the classic "We are not liable for anything ever." kind. Not to mention the "The user agrees to never sue us." one. There are many judges that absolutely hate those things.

What mostly matters is how wronged the party was and whether the average person would think they were fairly wronged.

No, what matters most is that those types of agreements violate existing laws related to strict and assignable liability; that's why they're voided in court. Entities that use those sorts of user agreements count on their users either being too ignorant to challenge them, or unable to shoulder the costs of doing so.

The Kickstarter user agreement was clearly nothing of the sort.
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