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Old 25th May 2019, 10:25 AM   #361
Chris Haynes
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If someone posts a link to a major study by the CDC or WHO or other such organization that compares the health outcomes of the fully vaccinated to the fully unvaccinated, then I will withdraw the claim.

Also, if you are unhappy with the several large epidemiology studies done in several countries covering tens of thousands of children that show that vaccines do not cause autism, nor other ailments then go do one yourself. Just design a study, make sure it complies with the Belmont Report. Then get it approved by a real independent review board, and then write a grant to get it funded. Submit that grant to entities like Safe Minds, the Dwoskin Family Foundation, Generation Rescue, etc. Then get it done!


Until then, peruse the real autism research at https://sparkforautism.org/discover/ (by the way this is the third time I have given your that link)
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Old 25th May 2019, 11:03 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Here you go:

https://thoughtscapism.com/2015/04/1...inated-people/

I do hope you now live up to your promise. Everyone here is trying to tell you the same thing: you are misinformed.
Below are a couple of excerpts from your link. They do not qualify.
The first doesn't compare health outcomes, only infectious diseases. Not autims, cancer, Guillam-Barre, diabetes, etc. The second was a small sample size and only concerned with asthma. At the list of studies, they include a "Nigerian study of 25 unvaccinated and 25 vaccinated children:"

C'mon, give me a break. Everyone knows a study of 25 people is entirely useless and the fact that this site would post that as evidence of anything totally destroys their credibility.

Since you missed the pertinent post, let me define the study we're looking for again.

A major study by the CDC or WHO with a large sample size that compares the fully vaccinated (to CDC's schedule of 70 doses of vaccine) to the fully unvaccinated.

I already know such a study does not exist, but prove me wrong.
None of the studies on that site come anywhere close to meeting the criteria.

German Study 2011
"We evaluated data on diseases that are preventable by vaccination, infectious and atopic diseases, and vaccinations received that had been collected between 2003 and 2006"

"In another*German study, from 2013,*1315 babies were followed from birth until they were 20 years old to study the development of asthma. They*concluded that the vaccinated*have lower rates of asthma compared to non-vaccinated"
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Old 25th May 2019, 11:06 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Also, if you are unhappy with the several large epidemiology studies done in several countries covering tens of thousands of children that show that vaccines do not cause autism, nor other ailments then go do one yourself. Just design a study, make sure it complies with the Belmont Report. Then get it approved by a real independent review board, and then write a grant to get it funded. Submit that grant to entities like Safe Minds, the Dwoskin Family Foundation, Generation Rescue, etc. Then get it done!


Until then, peruse the real autism research at https://sparkforautism.org/discover/ (by the way this is the third time I have given your that link)
We're not talking about autism. We're talking about a study that's very simple in concept, that I described in the previous post.
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Old 25th May 2019, 11:10 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Thank you for introducing the phrase quote mining. It was driving me crazy that Itchy Boy's outright lies were being labeled as cherry picking. Cherry picking means selectively presenting facts. Itchy Boy was not selecting among facts when quoting Plotkin. He was outright lying by leaving out the context.
How can I leave out the context when I'm providing the original video of the transcript? Anyone can see the clip I'm quoting and what comes before and after.

I'll ask you what nobody has answered.
What motive do you think I have to deceive?
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Old 25th May 2019, 11:25 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
We're not talking about autism. We're talking about a study that's very simple in concept, that I described in the previous post.

You have it all designed, then go do it. You remind me of the parents in the school who kept requesting the PTA to do something or other. We got tired of the demands of those who complain and never lift a finger. So we told them that they were now the committee chair of that project and to come back when they have come up with a plan and budget.


You should start by looking up the Belmont Report.


Also, here is a detailed description of what you are demanding: http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/...stand-science/
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Old 25th May 2019, 11:50 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
You have it all designed, then go do it. You remind me of the parents in the school who kept requesting the PTA to do something or other. We got tired of the demands of those who complain and never lift a finger. So we told them that they were now the committee chair of that project and to come back when they have come up with a plan and budget.


You should start by looking up the Belmont Report.


Also, here is a detailed description of what you are demanding: http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com/...stand-science/
"Basically, anti-vaccine propagandists are asking for the following (they may not realize that this is what they’re demanding, but the expectations of valid research design would require these conditions):

1. Eliminate the use of all vaccines immediately in every country on the planet. Immediately — regardless of any public health concerns that exist. "

The link loses all cred right there. 1. is off the charts stupid. To suggest it would require cessation of all vaccine use is asinine beyond belief, and no explanation for that assertion is given. There are lots of unvaccinated people all over the world, and we have medical records of the vaccinated and unvaccinated that could be mined for the data. No change in vaccine uptake is required.
I have to assume the author is deliberately misdirecting people because nobody who professes to write about medical issues could be that stupid.

Or, can anyone do what the author failed to do? Explain why all vaccine use would have to cease to do the study?

The other points they listed were equally ridiculous so I'm not going to waste time breaking them down. The first one is dumb enough to discredit the rest all by itself.

Nevertheless the link has value because it supports the contention that the study I described does not exist.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:03 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
"The link loses all cred right there. 1. is off the charts stupid. To suggest it would require cessation of all vaccine use is asinine beyond belief, and no explanation for that assertion is given.
He did explain his assertion.
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
There are lots of unvaccinated people all over the world, and we have medical records of the vaccinated and unvaccinated that could be mined for the data.
He addressed this.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Or, can anyone do what the author failed to do? Explain why all vaccine use would have to cease to do the study?
He did explain this.

What happens when you read that link? Do areas of the page just go gray before your eyes or what?
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:22 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
He did explain his assertion.

He addressed this.


He did explain this.

What happens when you read that link? Do areas of the page just go gray before your eyes or what?
When I read something so stupid in the first bit, I'm not going to read much farther.

Instead of just saying 'he did explain', post the paragraph where he explains why all vaccine use must immediately cease worldwide to do the study.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:26 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
When I read something so stupid in the first bit, I'm not going to read much farther.

Instead of just saying 'he did explain', post the paragraph where he explains why all vaccine use must immediately cease worldwide to do the study.
Crikey, I didn't read the whole thing either but even I know that one. It's the para before it.

Quote:
Basically, anti-vaccine propagandists are asking for the following (they may not realize that this is what they’re demanding, but the expectations of valid research design would require these conditions):
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:26 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
When I read something so stupid in the first bit, I'm not going to read much farther.

Instead of just saying 'he did explain', post the paragraph where he explains why all vaccine use must immediately cease worldwide to do the study.
Why in the world should I bother? You just said you didn't read it. Go back and read the link.

And note that if you didn't read the link you were lying when you talked about it.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:31 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Crikey, I didn't read the whole thing either but even I know that one. It's the para before it.
I quoted that paragraph. I want to know specifically why all vaccination would have to immediately cease all over the world. That paragraph does nothing to explain it.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:36 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why in the world should I bother? You just said you didn't read it. Go back and read the link.

And note that if you didn't read the link you were lying when you talked about it.
You should bother if you want to make your point.

I did read some of it and quoted some [ed: and skimmed some more of it]. I explained the first point was so idiotic I wasn't going to waste time reading farther.

So if, as you say, he explains specifically why all vax must cease then just post that part. Otherwise I have to assume the author did not support that assertion.

ed: You accuse me of lying. What motive do you think I have to deceive?
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:42 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
You should bother if you want to make your point.
My point is simply that you are lying.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I did read some of it and quoted some. I explained the first point was so idiotic I wasn't going to waste time reading farther.
Then saying that something isn't in the article is simply a lie. And you did that.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
So if, as you say, he explains specifically why all vax must cease then just post that part. Otherwise I have to assume the author did not support that assertion.
No you do not have to assume that. What a totally ridiculous and dishonest thing to say. You can read it at the link like others have done.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:50 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
My point is simply that you are lying.


Then saying that something isn't in the article is simply a lie. And you did that.

No you do not have to assume that. What a totally ridiculous and dishonest thing to say. You can read it at the link like others have done.
If it's so hard for you to post the guy's explanation, you're only convincing me it doesn't exist. Your guy just made a bald-faced assertion with no support and we both know it. - Or you would have posted the paragraph already. Go ahead an prove otherwise by posting a specific explanation why all vax would have to cease. In his words, or your own.

ed: And again I ask, what motive do I have to deceive?
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:59 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If it's so hard for you to post the guy's explanation, you're only convincing me it doesn't exist.
It was not hard to read the link at all. And by the words you have posted in this thread you lied about the article immediately. You can't both know what's not in the article and not have read the entire article at the same time.

I really don't care about convincing you of anything. I care about demonstrating that anti-vaxxers are liars. Thanks for providing such a simple and easy to understand example of that.
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Old 25th May 2019, 01:05 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
It was not hard to read the link at all. And by the words you have posted in this thread you lied about the article immediately. You can't both know what's not in the article and not have read the entire article at the same time.

I really don't care about convincing you of anything. I care about demonstrating that anti-vaxxers are liars. Thanks for providing such a simple and easy to understand example of that.
Thanks. In other words the explanation I'm asking for is not there and you won't admit you're wrong. Get back to me when you have something to contribute.

P.S. What is my motive for lying to deceive anyone?
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Old 25th May 2019, 01:18 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Crikey, I didn't read the whole thing either but even I know that one. It's the para before it.
And Itchy Boy is demonstrating the author's point in a big way in this thread. He didn't read that article to the end because the author didn't explain point 1 in the order that Itchy Boy would like. And Itchy Boy in earlier posts is demanding that one specific study be done his way in order to convince him.

The authors point, of course, is that we already know that anti-vaxxers will always make up some reason to not accept the evidence.
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Old 25th May 2019, 01:56 PM   #378
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Kudos for not dancing to his tune. The article is right there; we can all see it. Let him lie all he wants.
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Old 25th May 2019, 02:33 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Thanks. In other words the explanation I'm asking for is not there and you won't admit you're wrong. Get back to me when you have something to contribute.

P.S. What is my motive for lying to deceive anyone?
Let me help you...

The reason why all people must stop being vaccinated seems pretty obvious. If the only people not vaccinated are the control, then they will still benefit from herd immunity of the mass of people still being vaccinated around them that are and are not in the study. Thus, the results of the control group are corrupted.
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:03 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Let me help you...

The reason why all people must stop being vaccinated seems pretty obvious. If the only people not vaccinated are the control, then they will still benefit from herd immunity of the mass of people still being vaccinated around them that are and are not in the study. Thus, the results of the control group are corrupted.
The results of the control group are not corrupted. The study I described is not to test immunity. It is to test other health outcomes of the vaccinated vs unvaccinated. How many in each group developed cancer, diabetes or a host of other conditions. That's what the test is for. To see if those fully vaccinated with the CDC's 70 doses by age 18 have more or less rates of cancer, Guillam-barre and other conditions. Herd immunity or individual immunity has nothing to do with it. That's not what we're testing for.

And they probably could do such a study from data that already exists.
So your explanation isn't relevant. But thanks for making the effort.
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:16 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Kudos for not dancing to his tune. The article is right there; we can all see it. Let him lie all he wants.
What about you accusing me of moving goalposts with what you described as '70 doses nonsense'? Did I not prove the claim? Did you acknowledge that? ed: Or challenge it?

Are you people ever going to start attacking the facts I present instead of the messenger?

Does the RedWine article confirm that the study I'm looking for does not exist?
Is anyone ready to either concede that point or provide a real link?
Is anyone going to explain my motive for lying?

Or do you still want to pretend the study does exist?
Do you still want to pretend we have a rational explanation for why all vax must cease to perform the study?

Is this the skeptics forum, or the hypocrites forum?
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:21 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The results of the control group are not corrupted. The study I described is not to test immunity. It is to test other health outcomes of the vaccinated vs unvaccinated. How many in each group developed cancer, diabetes or a host of other conditions. That's what the test is for. To see if those fully vaccinated with the CDC's 70 doses by age 18 have more or less rates of cancer, Guillam-barre and other conditions. Herd immunity or individual immunity has nothing to do with it. That's not what we're testing for.

And they probably could do such a study from data that already exists.
So your explanation isn't relevant. But thanks for making the effort.
OK, the other folks are right, the rest of the article clearly illustrates why your requirements would be a study so ridiculously complex as to be financially impossible.

If you say the data already exists, then find it and compile it. Why must others satisfy your ridiculous requirements?
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:27 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What about you accusing me of moving goalposts with what you described as '70 doses nonsense'? Did I not prove the claim? Did you acknowledge that? ed: Or challenge it??
You moved the goalposts. You first asked for studies about MMR and autism then started asking for studies about 70 doses by age 18.
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:31 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
OK, the other folks are right, the rest of the article clearly illustrates why your requirements would be a study so ridiculously complex as to be financially impossible.

If you say the data already exists, then find it and compile it. Why must others satisfy your ridiculous requirements?
All I want from that article is to understand why all vaxxing must immediately cease in order to conduct the study. All I want from anyone here is to take 30 seconds and cut/paste the text that specifically answers my question.

I'm not interested in the rest of the article till I see the text that supports his assertion. Show me that, then we can move on.
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:36 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You moved the goalposts. You first asked for studies about MMR and autism then started asking for studies about 70 doses by age 18.
Go back and read again. I didn't ask for any studies about MMR and autism. I'm asking for that 'big one study' RedRoses confirms does not exist.

Now if people can swallow their pride and admit it doesn't exist, we can discuss the reasons why it should be done, and why it doesn't exist.

But first we have to agree that no such study is available to us.

And it's not my job. It's the job of the CDC, WHO and other organizations responsible for public health. They commission other studies, why not 'the big one'? The big one is the only way to discover whether the fully vaccinated or fully unvaccinated have better general health outcomes.

Fully vaccinated (CDC sched) vs fully unvaccinated. I'm not interested in the MMR/autism debate.
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:37 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
All I want from that article is to understand why all vaxxing must immediately cease in order to conduct the study. All I want from anyone here is to take 30 seconds and cut/paste the text that specifically answers my question.

I'm not interested in the rest of the article till I see the text that supports his assertion. Show me that, then we can move on.
You should take the 30 seconds to read it or stop wondering why people don't take you seriously.

Remember my point about this article: You LIED about it. You're making it painfully obvious that you LIED about the article because you're making it painfully clear you made statements that could only be truthful if you had actually read the article.

You're making it painfully clear that you couldn't possibly hold a valid opinion on this subject and that there is no point in actually trying to educate you.
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Old 25th May 2019, 03:49 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
You should bother if you want to make your point. ....
Except we can't because you don't understand the science. You are doing nothing but echoing the same anti-vaxxer ignorance they promote on their websites.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
...

You're making it painfully clear that you couldn't possibly hold a valid opinion on this subject and that there is no point in actually trying to educate you.
This ^
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:39 PM   #388
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Itchy Boy said:
Quote:
1. Eliminate the use of all vaccines immediately in every country on the planet. Immediately — regardless of any public health concerns that exist. "



That post was the result of the cumulative goal post moving by the antivaccine folks over the years. Someone just figured out how it would go.


Quote:
.... There are lots of unvaccinated people all over the world, and we have medical records of the vaccinated and unvaccinated that could be mined for the data. No change in vaccine uptake is required.
...


Which exactly what the two dozen or so large epidemiological studies used. The studies you don't like. The reason I told you to design and do your own study, since you seem to believe you know better than lots of PhD bio-statisticians and epidemiologists.


Have you read the Belmont Report yet?
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Old 25th May 2019, 04:53 PM   #389
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Recovering Yuppy said:
Quote:
If you say the data already exists, then find it and compile it. Why must others satisfy your ridiculous requirements?

He must be one of annoying parents who demand the PTA do stuff but will not help.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:00 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Recovering Yuppy said:

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
If you say the data already exists, then find it and compile it. Why must others satisfy your ridiculous requirements?
He must be one of annoying parents who demand the PTA do stuff but will not help.
FTFY
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:05 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
Recovering Yuppy said:
I remember seeing that but not saying it. I think credit for that goes to someone else.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:11 PM   #392
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Thanks. For some reason the "Quote" button is not working for me. It does not help that dear hubby gave me his cold.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:13 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
So, you believe vaccines are 100% safe? Nobody has died or developed chronic conditions as a result of a vaccine?
Nobody is saying that. Getting a vaccine is far safer than putting your kid into an automobile any day. In science we're taught that you don't get something for nothing, and is risk in everything. All medicine has side effects. No medicine is 100% safe 100% of the time for 100% of people taking it. Anyone making the claim of 100% safety 100% of the time is a Quack.

Does this mean you don't take medicine? Only if you're a moron.

I am in the early stages of heart failure likely caused by asthma medication I've used over the years. I continue to use this medication because I am fond of breathing. The medications I'm taking for my heart will also have side effects that can include sudden death if I don't watch my Potassium intake. My asthma medication has given me 55 years of healthy living, and my current situation is a fair, and realistic trade-off.

Quote:
If you admit that there have been deaths from vaccines, as evidenced by payouts from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund, then how can you in good conscience support forced vaccinations?
Because the average number of deaths in the world before vaccines was over a hundred thousand times as high. More kids are killed by guns, cars, and trains than vaccines in any given year.

If you admit that there have been deaths from vaccines, as evidenced by payouts from the Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund, then how can you in good conscience support forced vaccinations?

Quote:
So the question becomes, how many deaths from forced vaccines would be acceptable to you in return for supposed 'herd immunity'.
It's not a question of acceptability, kids die every day, and nobody is thrilled by this fact. Without mass vaccination the number of dead children becomes staggering. Anti-Vaccers are promoting a world where tens to thousands of children die each year. How is this wise?

If you think there have been zero deaths from vaccines, you would be mistaken.

This is the master list of vaccine studies:

https://www.healthychildren.org/Engl...-Evidence.aspx

The facts speak for themselves. Vaccines are safe.
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Old 25th May 2019, 06:39 PM   #394
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6 month-old-baby contracts measles; 8th case identified in western Washington
Quote:
The child was exposed to someone who was contagious in her home and was not exposed to measles in public according to health officials.
Lovely, someone infected a 6 month old (too young to have been vaccinated) in their own house.

Oh, and for whatever reason they took this kid to the Children's Hospital ED without warning the staff ahead of time. Everyone in the ED was exposed.
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Old 25th May 2019, 09:27 PM   #395
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The evidence that vaccines are a net benefit - a huge net benefit, in fact - is overwhelming, clearly enough to convince any reasonable person. The corollary is equally clear.
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Old 25th May 2019, 09:38 PM   #396
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One of the worst things I went through with my kids almost 25 years ago was when chicken pox swept through our house. This was a year before the varicella vaccine was introduced in the USA.

The youngest got as a six month old baby. I think anyone who thinks it is okay dokay for a child, or a baby, to suffer almost two weeks with itchy open wounds known as pox is a sadistic child hater.

Itchy Boy said:
Quote:
Can you spare 4 minutes to see how chicken pox is regarded in the Netherlands vs America?
I don't care what they think in the Netherlands. And that includes dear hubby's cousin, her husband and her kids. Though we did have a bit of amusement when their teenage daughter was shocked that all but one bathroom door in house had no locks (we sent her to the basement, which is well, a basement where the bathroom is off of the furnace/water heater room and it has a monster laundry tub which I use to dye fabric). The doors were salvaged from a hotel that had to change out their beautiful mahogany doors to those that would be ADA compliant. They had locks, but when we inquired about the keys we were presented with a basket of over a hundred keys that we could try on the doors we bought. Yeah, my kids had to learn not to barge into rooms was the biggest sacrifice... still freaked out their second cousin!

Also her father did not understand why we did not have a hydro-heat system, nor why our house was wood and not brick. Etc. It is almost like the Netherlands and the USA are two completely different countries! Guess which one is much larger that had to account for about a hundred deaths per year due to chicken pox.
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Old 26th May 2019, 12:23 AM   #397
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"RotaShield, a vaccine intended to prevent severe rotavirus diarrhea, was withdrawn in July 1999, 9 months after it became available in the United States, because of a temporal association with intussusception events that occurred in vaccinated infants."

"During the 9 months that RotaShield was in use, ∼1.2 million doses were given to ∼600,000 infants."

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article..._1/S36/2191839

(Intussusception is a medical condition in which a part of the intestine folds into the section immediately ahead of it.)
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Old 26th May 2019, 01:28 AM   #398
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Yes, the system works. Unexpected side effects of medical treatments are detected and the treatment is withdrawn. Obviously we should learn from such incidents and improve testing so that these rare occurrences become even rarer, but it's good to know isn't it? Thank goodness no one is suggesting that these rare problems are a reason to deny themselves treatments which save thousands of lives, because that would be crazy talk.
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Old 26th May 2019, 09:04 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Yes, the system works. Unexpected side effects of medical treatments are detected and the treatment is withdrawn. Obviously we should learn from such incidents and improve testing so that these rare occurrences become even rarer, but it's good to know isn't it? Thank goodness no one is suggesting that these rare problems are a reason to deny themselves treatments which save thousands of lives, because that would be crazy talk.

It's worthwhile pointing out that there are countries where even the defective rotavirus vaccine would have been a life saver. At the time that vaccine was withdrawn rotavirus diarrhea was killing 400,000 children per year, and sending tens of million per year to clinics and hospitals.
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Old 26th May 2019, 11:20 AM   #400
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Itchy Boy, have you ever taken care of a toddler with rotavirus. I have. The kid ended up with seizures due to screwed up electrolytes from dehydration.



Do you even know if RotaShield is still in use, or the relative risk of intussusception compared not getting a rotavirus vaccine? Why should we care about your opinion if you do not know that?
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