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Old 24th May 2019, 01:01 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
You’re welcome. Admitting error is generally admired around here so kudos for that.
Thank you for taking the time to assemble that post. That was a lot of work!
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Old 24th May 2019, 02:30 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
So, clearly, the jury is out.
The section you quote is referring to an earlier report. In this final report the summary says:

Quote:
This eighth and final report of the Immunization Safety Review Committee examines the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. The committee reviewed the extant published and unpublished epidemiological studies regarding causality and studies of potential biologic mechanisms by which these immunizations might cause autism. The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. The committee further finds that potential biological mechanisms for vaccine-induced autism that have been generated to date are theoretical only.
"Favours rejection" is much stronger than "inadequate to accept or reject". So no, the jury is not still out. It has rendered its verdict.
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Last edited by Pixel42; 24th May 2019 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 05:34 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
"Since January, the Philippines has had one of the worst measles outbreaks in the world: more than 33,000 cases and 466 deaths from the vaccine-preventable disease."

That would make 465 vaccine-related deaths for every 33,000 vaccinations an acceptable trade.
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:27 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
With each intersection magnificently illuminated by gaslight!
Sounds like a conflagration in the making!
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Old 24th May 2019, 09:52 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The section you quote is referring to an earlier report. In this final report the summary says:



"Favours rejection" is much stronger than "inadequate to accept or reject". So no, the jury is not still out. It has rendered its verdict.
Suit yourself but in my book,
"favours rejection of a causal relationship"
if far from synonymous with
"no link".

If there was no link, why wouldn't they make a big announcement and say that directly and unambiguously?

More to date - Plotkin, in 2018, anytime he's wearing his scientist hat, would not say that vaccines don't cause autism or other conditions.

Seems clear to me the jury IS still out.
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Last edited by Itchy Boy; 24th May 2019 at 09:56 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 24th May 2019, 10:16 AM   #326
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No one anywhere who is wearing a "scientist hat," is going to say that you can prove a negative. This is literally axiomatic. We have known this since the ancient Greeks.



ETA - In case this isn't clear, why haven't you made a big announcement that there is not an invisible pink dragon in your garage? Why don't you just prove it isn't there?

Last edited by carlitos; 24th May 2019 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:01 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Thanks for your post. I spoke out of turn here and shot my mouth off without being certain of my facts. It happens sometimes in the heat of the moment.

So i apologize to everyone and withdraw my comments on vaccine testing until I know more about the testing process.

Thanks for alerting me of my transgression.

.
Bravo!
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:07 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
From your source
Quote:
SUMMARY

This eighth and final report of the Immunization Safety Review Committee examines the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. The committee reviewed the extant published and unpublished epidemiological studies regarding causality and studies of potential biologic mechanisms by which these immunizations might cause autism. The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. The committee further finds that potential biological mechanisms for vaccine-induced autism that have been generated to date are theoretical only.

The committee does not recommend a policy review of the current schedule and recommendations for the administration of either the MMR vaccine or thimerosal-containing vaccines. The committee recommends a public health response that fully supports an array of vaccine safety activities. In addition, the committee recommends that available funding for autism research be channeled to the most promising areas. The committee makes additional recommendations regarding surveillance and epidemiological research, clinical studies, and communication related to these vaccine safety concerns. Please see Box 2 for a summary of all conclusions and recommendations.
Box Icon
BOX 2

Committee Conclusions and Recommendations. The committee concludes that the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. The committee concludes that the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship (more...)
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:08 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
No one anywhere who is wearing a "scientist hat," is going to say that you can prove a negative. This is literally axiomatic. We have known this since the ancient Greeks.

ETA - In case this isn't clear, why haven't you made a big announcement that there is not an invisible pink dragon in your garage? Why don't you just prove it isn't there?
Thanks. I'm aware of the issues around proving a negative. But the fact remains it cannot be said that vaccines don't cause autism and various conditions. We know for a fact that vaccines DO cause serious health issues in some people as evidenced by the information on the vaccine insert.

They could virtually eliminate vaccines as a factor by doing a major study to compare health outcomes for the fully vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.
Which group had the highest rate of autism, neurological disorders, etc.
If the vaccinated show no higher rate of autism, then the negative has been proven.

Some independent studies have been done but the sample size was too small to achieve conclusive results. Nevertheless, those studies found a much higher risk of serious health issues in the vaccinated.

In light of that, and the endless parade of parents claiming vaccine injury to their children, is such a major study with a large sample size not called for?

An important aspect of this issue is 'conflict of interest'. For example, people going back and forth between the regulatory agencies and the companies they're supposed to regulate.
I'll post more on that later.
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Last edited by Itchy Boy; 24th May 2019 at 11:11 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:09 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Here's a little factoid from Stanley.
Q: The increase in the vaccine market has been due to the fact that new vaccines give higher profits, correct?
A: Correct.

PART 3 @ 12:10 - 12:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSrykwRXHc
Is that their actual area of expertise or just a random guess?
What sources do they cite?
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:28 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
They could virtually eliminate vaccines as a factor by doing a major study to compare health outcomes for the fully vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.
Which group had the highest rate of autism, neurological disorders, etc.
If the vaccinated show no higher rate of autism, then the negative has been proven.
Like the ones described in your link, you mean? The one done in Denmark, for example:

Quote:
Denmark. Madsen and colleagues (2002) conducted a population-based retrospective cohort study comparing the rates of ASD among children in Denmark who were vaccinated with MMR with those who did not receive the MMR vaccine. […]

A total of 537,303 children were included in the cohort and followed for 2,129,864 person-years. A total of 440,655 children (82 percent) received the MMR vaccine for a total of 1,647,504 person-years of follow-up, compared with 482,360 person-years of follow-up for children who did not receive the MMR vaccine. Of these, 316 children were identified with an autistic disorder and 422 with a diagnosis of another ASD. Mean age at time of MMR vaccination was 17 months, and 98.5 percent of vaccinated children received the MMR prior to 3 years of age. The same proportion of boys (82 percent) were vaccinated as were girls.

After adjusting for potential confounders, the relative risk of autistic disorder among vaccinated children compared with unvaccinated children was 0.92 (95% CI, 0.68-1.24) and the relative risk for other ASD was 0.83 (95% CI, 0.65-1.07). There was no association between age at time of MMR vaccination, time since vaccination, and date of vaccination and the developmenta of autistic disorder.

The results showed that the risk of autism was comparable both in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. In addition, there was no temporal clustering of autism cases following immunization. Finally, MMR vaccine was not associated with autism or other ASD. The authors concluded that the study provided evidence against a causal association between vaccines and autism.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:54 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
... But the fact remains it cannot be said that vaccines don't cause autism and various conditions. ...

And yet you ignore a very large research program that is finding actual causes for several forms of autism:
https://sparkforautism.org/discover/
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:29 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Suit yourself but in my book,
"favours rejection of a causal relationship"
if far from synonymous with
"no link".
....
That's because you don't understand the language of science.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:31 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Like the ones described in your link, you mean? The one done in Denmark, for example:
Quote:
The results showed that the risk of autism was comparable both in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.
I don't think Itchy understands that either.
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Old 24th May 2019, 12:44 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's because you don't understand the language of science.
Yes, I understand scientific weasel words. They phrase it that way specifically because they can't say 'vaccines don't cause autism or...".

If I got the right Denmark study, it only tested for the MMR.

Where's the study comparing the fully vaccinated who now get some 70 doses by the age of 18, to the completely unvaccinated? That's the study that needs to be done to settle the question. Not just for autism, but many other conditions that have risen dramatically coinciding with increase in the vaccine schedule.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:04 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
No one anywhere who is wearing a "scientist hat," is going to say that you can prove a negative. This is literally axiomatic. We have known this since the ancient Greeks.

ETA - In case this isn't clear, why haven't you made a big announcement that there is not an invisible pink dragon in your garage? Why don't you just prove it isn't there?
During that section of the deposition, Plotkin says, "I can't prove vaccines don't cause leprosy either." To which the response was, "Are you aware of any reports of vaccines causing leprosy?". He wasn't aware of any such reports.

Well, we DO have a plethora of reports of autism and other adverse effects that are listed in the product insert. Those reports are a big neon sign that the regulatory agencies who are supposed to protect us, are ignoring or sweeping under the rug.
ed: They need to study the cumulative effects of all those toxic adjuvants and unwanted debris that are in vaccines.

They put on a show, by testing one vaccine at a time, and that's enough to convince (almost) everybody that vaccines don't cause _______. They also seem to focus on autism and not the other nasties listed in the insert.

Not only is there massive conflict of interest in the industry, but now the censors have gone into high gear. Censorship is just another step towards tyranny.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:15 PM   #337
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Andrew Wakefield wasn't secretly taking more than half a million dollars from people who patented a leprosy vaccine. So he didn't issue any reports on that. Go figure.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:19 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Is that their actual area of expertise or just a random guess?
What sources do they cite?
If you want to challenge the point, you'll have to come up with some evidence.
You might save some time by examining Plotkin's CV first.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:20 PM   #339
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The symptoms of leprosy do not first begin to show themselves at about the age at which the MMR vaccine is administered. The symptoms of autism do first begin to show themselves at about the age at which the MMR vaccine is administered. That's why there are reports of a link between MMR and autism and no reports of a link between MMR and leprosy. But there is no more actual objective evidence of the former than there is of the latter, and no plausible mechanism by which a treatment given after birth can cause a condition present in the womb. That's why the null hypothesis is that there is no link between vaccines and autism, and why that null hypothesis stands until objective evidence of such a link is demonstrated.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:23 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Yes, I understand scientific weasel words. They phrase it that way specifically because they can't say 'vaccines don't cause autism or...".

If I got the right Denmark study, it only tested for the MMR.

Where's the study comparing the fully vaccinated who now get some 70 doses by the age of 18, to the completely unvaccinated? That's the study that needs to be done to settle the question. Not just for autism, but many other conditions that have risen dramatically coinciding with increase in the vaccine schedule.
The goalposts keep moving. First the claim was that MMR caused autism. Then it was thimerosal. When that was removed, they claim shifted to the cumulative effects of all those vaccines causes autism, and anything else they can think of.

The truth is that even if the study Itchy Boy wants done shows vaccinated people are healthier than unvaccinated, as it almost undoubetedly would, the goalposts will move again.

Last edited by CORed; 24th May 2019 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:24 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Andrew Wakefield wasn't secretly taking more than half a million dollars from people who patented a leprosy vaccine. So he didn't issue any reports on that. Go figure.
I don't know about that. But it's a non-sequitor. The fact remains we don't have lots of reports of leprosy being caused by vaccines, while we do have endless reports of autism and other things being caused by vaccines.

Would you provide a citation so I can look into your Wakefield claim, just for my own interest. I don't think it's germane here.
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Old 24th May 2019, 01:52 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
The goalposts keep moving. First the claim was that MMR caused autism. Then it was thimerosal. When that was removed, they claim shifted to the cumulative effects of all those vaccines causes autism, and anything else they can think of.

The truth is that even if the study Itchy Boy wants done shows vaccinated people are healthier than unvaccinated, as it almost undoubetedly would, the goalposts will move again.
IF the study were to be done, there would be no more goalposts to move.
At least one small pilot study showed the vaccinated did not fare as well as the unvaccinated.

The problem is, if the study showed the same results as the pilot, it would be absolutely devastating to the vaccine industry. We simply can't have that, and so the study will never be done.
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Old 24th May 2019, 02:00 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Would you provide a citation so I can look into your Wakefield claim, just for my own interest. I don't think it's germane here.
I'm more than a little skeptical that you don't think it's germane, and that you are unaware of Wakefield's complicity in a fraud scheme here. But for the good of anyone reading, here are a couple of links.


https://respectfulinsolence.com/2007...kefield-was-p/

Quote:
ANDREW WAKEFIELD, the former surgeon whose campaign linking the MMR vaccine with autism caused a collapse in immunisation rates, was paid more than £400,000 by lawyers trying to prove that the vaccine was unsafe.

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-persp...tudy-was-fraud

Quote:
The story notes Deer's previous report that a British solicitor who was working on a lawsuit against the vaccine maker paid Dr. Andrew Wakefield, lead author of the Lancet study, hundreds of thousands of pounds (more than $600,000 in US currency) to develop the study.
Of course, you are indeed moving the goalposts, now discussing the "70 doses" nonsense.
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Old 24th May 2019, 02:22 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If you want to challenge the point, you'll have to come up with some evidence.
You might save some time by examining Plotkin's CV first.
So you can't say if the profit margins in the manufacturing of vaccines is an area of expertise for Plotkin?
I will take that as a no then. Not my job to research your claims.
Your claim that it is relevant, your burden.
Have a nice weekend BTW
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Old 24th May 2019, 06:12 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I'm more than a little skeptical that you don't think it's germane, and that you are unaware of Wakefield's complicity in a fraud scheme here. But for the good of anyone reading, here are a couple of links.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2007...kefield-was-p/

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-persp...tudy-was-fraud

Of course, you are indeed moving the goalposts, now discussing the "70 doses" nonsense.
The goalpost moving CORed mentioned was not by me. People need to stop attributing to me what others may have done.

I know about Wakefield but it's not germane because the discussion isn't about autism in particular. It's about doing that big test that hasn't been done to compare the health outcomes of the vaccinated to the unvaccinated.
See which group has the highest incidence of autism, cancer, diabetes, etc.
How can anyone be opposed to that?

ed: I corrected my math. 2 x 3 = 6, not 10. I looked it up!

The CDC regular schedule calls for 71 doses of vaccine in a total of 40 injections [ed: by age 18]. In cases where 1 or 2 doses were recommended, I'm counting the lower number. So, potentially, one could receive more than 71 doses by following the CDC schedule.

IF you want to say 1 injection = 1 dose, even though it contains 3 doses of vaccine, fine, but 40 shots still adds up to a lot of toxins.

Nevertheless, the 70 number you accuse me of moving goalposts with did not come from my imagination.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedul....html#birth-15
Hep B - 3
Rotavirus- 2
DTaP - (< 7yrs) 5 shots x 3 vaccines =15 doses
Hib - 4
PCV13 - 4
IPV - 4
IIV - annual 1 or 2 - 18 - 36
MMR - 2 shots x 3 vaccines = 6 xxx10 doses
VAR - 2
HepA - 2
MenA - 2
Tdap > 7yrs - 1
HPV - 2 - 3
MenB - 2 - 3
PPSV23 - 4

71 doses in 40 shots
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Old 24th May 2019, 06:19 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
So you can't say if the profit margins in the manufacturing of vaccines is an area of expertise for Plotkin?
I will take that as a no then. Not my job to research your claims.
Your claim that it is relevant, your burden.
Have a nice weekend BTW
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way debate usually works is something like this:

1. someone makes a claim and provides a source (which I did)
2. someone challenges the claim and source by providing counter evidence

You've provided no counter claim or evidence.
Dismissing the claim out of hand doesn't contribute anything [ed: or discredit the claim.]

You have a great weekend too. Thanks.
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Last edited by Itchy Boy; 24th May 2019 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 08:53 PM   #347
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Another correction but I couldn't make it to the post:

Tdap (>7yrs) I only counted as 1 dose but it's 3.

So total doses = 73 in 40 injections.
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Old 24th May 2019, 10:19 PM   #348
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Yes, I understand scientific weasel words. They phrase it that way specifically because they can't say 'vaccines don't cause autism or...".
Could this possibly be anymore classic Dunning-Kruger than it is?


Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
If I got the right Denmark study, it only tested for the MMR.

Where's the study comparing the fully vaccinated who now get some 70 doses by the age of 18, to the completely unvaccinated? That's the study that needs to be done to settle the question. Not just for autism, but many other conditions that have risen dramatically coinciding with increase in the vaccine schedule.
Now you're just spouting anti-vaxxer crap. There are threads for that.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:09 PM   #349
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Here's a comparison of the vaccinated with the completely unvaccinated:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LifeExpectancy.jpg (31.1 KB, 30 views)
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Last edited by Pixel42; 24th May 2019 at 11:17 PM. Reason: Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:10 PM   #350
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Could this possibly be anymore classic Dunning-Kruger than it is?

Now you're just spouting anti-vaxxer crap. There are threads for that.
As I said to David, dismissing a claim with a wave of the hand doesn't discredit it.

I claimed there's no major study by the CDC or WHO to compare the fully vaccinated to the fully unvaccinated.

If you want to prove me wrong then give me a link to the study.

If you think the 70 doses is crap, see my earlier post. If you still think it's crap you can easily follow the link to the CDC and count them for yourself.
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Last edited by Itchy Boy; 24th May 2019 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:18 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Here's a comparison of the vaccinated with the completely unvaccinated:
Am I missing something? I only see one chart titled, "Life Expectancy by Region 1950 - 2050". Are we in 2050 already? Phew, time flies.

I don't see anything in there about vaccines, or any comparison of vaccinated to unvaccinated. That chart is so off the charts irrelevant I honestly can't believe you'd post that with a straight face.

Find the study I'm asking for and then you'll have something.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:20 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
As I said to David, dismissing a claim with a wave of the hand doesn't discredit it.

I claimed there's no major study by the CDC or WHO to compare the fully vaccinated to the fully unvaccinated.

If you want to prove me wrong then give me a link to the study.
You have yet to address the link I cited explaining Plotkin's testimony.

No one waved any hands. Do you know what Dunning-Kruger effect is?
Quote:
In 2011, David Dunning wrote about his observations that people with substantial, measurable deficits in their knowledge or expertise lack the ability to recognize those deficits and, therefore, despite potentially making error after error, tend to think they are performing competently when they are not:
Until you figure that out, nothing anyone posts will convince you that you are wrong and making serious mistakes that you don't understand you are making.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:47 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You have yet to address the link I cited explaining Plotkin's testimony.

No one waved any hands. Do you know what Dunning-Kruger effect is?

Until you figure that out, nothing anyone posts will convince you that you are wrong and making serious mistakes that you don't understand you are making.
If someone posts a link to a major study by the CDC or WHO or other such organization that compares the health outcomes of the fully vaccinated to the fully unvaccinated, then I will withdraw the claim.
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Old 24th May 2019, 11:51 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Until you figure that out, nothing anyone posts will convince you that you are wrong and making serious mistakes that you don't understand you are making.
He insists poorly evidenced correlations between increasing vaccination rates and the incidence of various ailments must be significant but dismisses a clear correlation between increasing vaccination rates and increasing life expectancy as "off the charts irrelevant". I agree, we can't help him until he first helps himself.
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:13 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
He insists poorly evidenced correlations between increasing vaccination rates and the incidence of various ailments must be significant but dismisses a clear correlation between increasing vaccination rates and increasing life expectancy as "off the charts irrelevant". I agree, we can't help him until he first helps himself.
What are you smoking?
You said, "Here's a comparison of the vaccinated with the completely unvaccinated:" and presented a chart that didn't have a word about vaccines.

Why don't you find that link and prove me wrong? Or admit that such a study doesn't exist?
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Old 25th May 2019, 12:58 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What are you smoking?
You said, "Here's a comparison of the vaccinated with the completely unvaccinated:" and presented a chart that didn't have a word about vaccines.
Charts showing the increasing reported incidence of autism over time don't mention vaccines either, yet you seem to have no difficulty seeing a connection.

You know perfectly well that vaccination rates in the 50s were much lower than they are now, and the chart shows that life expectancy was also lower then and has steadily increased as vaccination rates have steadily increased. Just apply the same logic you've been using throughout this thread. The only difference is that there is objective evidence that increasing vaccination rates does indeed increase average life expectancy, because the number of early deaths from the childhood diseases the vaccinations prevent has dramatically fallen over the same period.
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Old 25th May 2019, 01:14 AM   #357
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What are we about here? The truth? Or clinging to a belief no matter what?

One more time...

If anyone posts a link to a study such as I've described, I'll withdraw my claim, stand corrected and the poster will have my sincere gratitude.

If the study does exist, and especially if it demonstrated that the fully vaccinated had as good or better health outcomes as the fully unvaccinated, you'd think it would be easy to find and cited all the time by pro-vaxxers. Where is it?

If it can't be found, is anyone here willing to admit it doesn't exist?
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It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
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Old 25th May 2019, 02:32 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What are we about here? The truth? Or clinging to a belief no matter what?

One more time...

If anyone posts a link to a study such as I've described, I'll withdraw my claim, stand corrected and the poster will have my sincere gratitude.

If the study does exist, and especially if it demonstrated that the fully vaccinated had as good or better health outcomes as the fully unvaccinated, you'd think it would be easy to find and cited all the time by pro-vaxxers. Where is it?

If it can't be found, is anyone here willing to admit it doesn't exist?
Here you go:

https://thoughtscapism.com/2015/04/1...inated-people/

I do hope you now live up to your promise. Everyone here is trying to tell you the same thing: you are misinformed.
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Old 25th May 2019, 08:05 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The deceptive acts from anti-vaxxers Skeptic Ginger mentions is ignorance and quote mining what Plotkin said.

Thank you for introducing the phrase quote mining. It was driving me crazy that Itchy Boy's outright lies were being labeled as cherry picking. Cherry picking means selectively presenting facts. Itchy Boy was not selecting among facts when quoting Plotkin. He was outright lying by leaving out the context.
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Old 25th May 2019, 09:11 AM   #360
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I just found this, which I'll post here as a useless contribution.

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