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Old 18th April 2019, 06:15 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
A rocket has no bullet to push off of. Rockets do not expel solid chunks. Solids do not move like fluids. Pressure gradient force moves the gas and the gas pushes the bullet. The gas is bounces off the bullet and pushes the gun.
False. And very silly: How can the gas suddenly push the gun after having bounced off a bullet, if you claim that it can't push if from "bouncing out" from the gun in the first place?


The gas pressure in the barrel pushes both ways; against the gun and against the bullet. However, the bullet is not important for the rocket effect. The gas itself is accelerated, instead.

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Old 18th April 2019, 06:27 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Cheetah View Post
What do you mean by solid chunks?
Why does it matter if it is solid or if it is in a chunk?
Solid chunk is one word. Important part is solid becuase it doesnít follow fluid dynamics
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:29 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
False. And very silly: How can the gas suddenly push the gun after having bounced off a bullet, if you claim that it can't push if from "bouncing out" from the gun in the first place?


The gas pressure in the barrel pushes both ways; against the gun and against the bullet. However, the bullet is not important for the rocket effect. The gas itself is accelerated, instead.

Hans
Pressure pushes toward least resistance. The bullet provides resistance. Why donít you make a simple experiment showing an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:29 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Solid chunk is one word. Important part is solid becuase it doesnít follow fluid dynamics
Does it follow Newton's third law?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:30 AM   #205
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss

Proven right here that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:30 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Solid chunk is one word.

Try counting them again.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:31 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Does it follow Newton's third law?
Yes, but solids to not fill or take the shape of its container
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:31 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Pressure pushes toward least resistance. The bullet provides resistance. Why donít you make a simple experiment showing an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force?

Are you claiming that gas has no mass?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:33 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Are you claiming that gas has no mass?
No I am not. Where is your simple experiment to refute the experiments in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:34 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Yes, but solids to not fill or take the shape of its container

By the way, several of the members posting in this thread already have considerable experience with posters who lapse into fractured English when they see their argument destroyed. It wonít work.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:36 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
No I am not.

Then you get 20 points for Item 22.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:37 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Yes, but solids to not fill or take the shape of its container
Irrelevant. Do you agree that if it has mass then Newton's third law applies?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:38 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
No I am not.
The do you agree a moving gas has momentum?

Quote:
Where is your simple experiment to refute the experiments in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss
Where is your explanation for why Newton's third law holds in every instance except for rockets in a vacuum?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:40 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Irrelevant. Do you agree that if it has mass then Newton's third law applies?
Lets say a 75kg person lifts a 100kg weight and he drops it from a height. Why doesnít that person get lifted off the ground? Isnít the weight mass?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:41 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Lets say a 75kg person lifts a 100kg weight and he drops it from a height. Why doesn’t that person get lifted off the ground? Isn’t the weight mass?
Asked and answered. Gravity is not momentum. The action in Newton's third law here is between the earth and the weight, not between the lifter and the weight.

Last edited by JayUtah; 18th April 2019 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:42 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
...to refute the experiments in here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss
Why are you unable to address the explanations already given?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:43 AM   #217
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Gingervytes, when you can take a break from pretending that Newtonís Third Law only applies when you find it convenient, would you be so kind as to answer the questions and refutations Iíve already put to you, but you have ignored so far? Here, Iíll repeat them for you:

Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Well, the SpaceX launch I watched last week from just outside the Vehicle Assembly Building was a commercial endeavor - they had a customer who paid them to put their vehicle into orbit. So NASA provided launch infrastructure, but had nothing to do with the rocketry in space. Thatís just the latest example of decades of commercial space flight. Not to mention Soviet/Russian, European, Chinese, Indian, Japanese, and other countriesí national and commercial space programs. The idea that the theory, let alone the practice, of rocketry somehow belongs to NASA is manifestly false.

On a more specific note, Iíve personally commanded a spacecraft to ďfireĒ its thruster to move away from the Shuttle - a cold gas N2 rocket with a whopping few ounces of thrust. It worked just fine, as we observed the results directly - including tracking the vehicle with our own (not just NASAís) S-band antenna. So, yes, I have direct personal experience that rockets work in a vacuum.
Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Your garbled interpretation of Newtonian mechanics aside, why would video be better than tracking data, or radar, or onboard inertial telemetry, the primary ways we (people who launch and operate spacecraft for a living) actually measure the response of spacecraft to rocket operation in space?

Bonus question: you do understand that NASA did not invent the equations of motion, nor the equations of rocketry, and that spacecraft are routinely operated by civil, military, and commercial organizations from many nations? Right?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:43 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Asked and answered. Gravity is not momentum.
Neither is pressure gradient force
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:45 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Why are you unable to address the explanations already given?
Iíve already addressed them. Iíve shown that the assumption that there is a equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force, like there is for pushing and pulling, is false.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:48 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Neither is pressure gradient force

Does the exhaust from a rocket expand equally in all directions?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:48 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Neither is pressure gradient force
But a pressure difference can result in the action of accelerating a mass to a velocity, which is momentum. Your unwillingness to consider the consequent of your pet phenomenon does not save you.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:50 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I’ve already addressed them.
No you haven't, as evidenced by your continuing to make the same mistakes the video does. You don't understand what momentum is, where it comes from, and what its effects are. This is why you keep posing what you wrongly think are analogies to rockets, but conflate elementary concepts like gravity.

You were shown how the video conflates other physical effects such as gravity and buoyancy. You have not rehabilitated your argument in the face of that demonstration. Simply repeating a debunked claim does not overcome its refutation.

Last edited by JayUtah; 18th April 2019 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:56 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Does the exhaust from a rocket expand equally in all directions?
Gas expands towards low pressure. A campfire smoke expands up rather that down because there is lower pressure at higher altitude
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:56 AM   #224
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Remember when self-styled super-engineer Anders was over on apollohoax, blithely not understanding conservation of energy? This reminds me of that, in particular the counterexample I gave him of a non-propulsive mass jettison. Dunning-Krueger in action.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:57 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No you haven't, as evidenced by your continuing to make the same mistakes the video does. You don't understand what momentum is, where it comes from, and what its effects are. This is why you keep posing what you wrongly think are analogies to rockets, but conflate elementary concepts like gravity.

You were shown how the video conflates other physical effects such as gravity and buoyancy. You have not rehabilitated your argument in the face of that demonstration. Simply repeating a debunked claim does not overcome its refutation.
ďConservation of momentum is a fundamental law of physics which states that the momentum of a system is constant if there are no external forces acting on the system. It is embodied in Newton's first law (the law of inertia).Ē the external force is pressure gradient force, not from the rocket
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:57 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Gas expands towards low pressure. A campfire smoke expands up rather that down because there is lower pressure at higher altitude
Yes, this is why there is a smoke ring around the earth.
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:58 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Gas expands towards low pressure. A campfire...
You didn't answer the question. In what direction does a rocket exhaust expand?
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Old 18th April 2019, 06:59 AM   #228
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Post 217, Gingervytes. Why won’t you answer the questions and refutations already provided you?
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:00 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
“Conservation of momentum is a fundamental law of physics which states that the momentum of a system is constant if there are no external forces acting on the system. It is embodied in Newton's first law (the law of inertia).” the external force is pressure gradient force, not from the rocket
No, that's not an external force. Gravity, for example, would be an external force for a rocket. The propellant contained in the rocket, and sharing its velocity state and mechanically coupled to it, is part of the rocket system. Since you were asked twice to address the refutation of your video, and you have declined both times to do so, can we agree that you have no rejoinder for the refutation and cannot rehabilitate the claims your video makes?

Last edited by JayUtah; 18th April 2019 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:07 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Gas expands towards low pressure. A campfire smoke expands up rather that down because there is lower pressure at higher altitude

Nope.

But answer the question: does the exhaust from a rocket expand equally in all directions?
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:11 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Iíve already addressed them. Iíve shown that the assumption that there is a equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force, like there is for pushing and pulling, is false.
Why do you think all the worlds physicists, engineers, rocket scientists, aerospace industries, space agencies, universities and scientific institutions would disagree with you?
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:31 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
ďConservation of momentum is a fundamental law of physics which states that the momentum of a system is constant if there are no external forces acting on the system. It is embodied in Newton's first law (the law of inertia).Ē the external force is pressure gradient force, not from the rocket
I can barely believe that a person can so willfully ignorant about basic concepts and the results of well established facts.

After all, rockets have been successfully operating in the vacuum of space for well over 60 years now.

In fact, if rockets could not operate in the vacuum of space, then it would not have been possible for the Apollo astronauts to go to the Moon and back in 1969 (plus a few more times after that).
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:32 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
F=m*a
The accelerated gas exerts a force equal and opposite to the force accelerating it.

Itís not exactly rocket science.

Quote:
The base of rocket science :-).

Oh yeah, thatís right.
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:41 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Remember when self-styled super-engineer Anders was over on apollohoax, blithely not understanding conservation of energy? This reminds me of that, in particular the counterexample I gave him of a non-propulsive mass jettison. Dunning-Krueger in action.
As I indicated in #21
Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Sounds like he graduated from the Anders Bjorkman space academy.
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:46 AM   #235
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There's a two-player Cheese Shop game in The Brand New Monty Python Bok, in which one player - the customer - asks for various different types of cheese, and the other - the shopkeeper - has to think up a new excuse as to why he hasn't got it. I think it's important, for those who are trying to persuade Gingervytes of his/her error, to realise that he/she is not seeking information or correction here, but playing a variant of the Cheese Shop game, in the role of shopkeeper.

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Old 18th April 2019, 07:50 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's a two-player Cheese Shop game in The Brand New Monty Python Bok, in which one player - the customer - asks for various different types of cheese, and the other - the shopkeeper - has to think up a new excuse as to why he hasn't got it. I think it's important, for those who are trying to persuade Gingervytes of his/her error, to realise that he/she is not seeking information or correction here, but playing a variant of the Cheese Shop game, in the role of shopkeeper.



Dave
Which is why I'm in favor of just saying, "okay, sure. What now?"
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Old 18th April 2019, 07:50 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Solid chunk is one word. Important part is solid becuase it doesn’t follow fluid dynamics
Wrong is also one word, that that you are

Who many words is solid chunk?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:01 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Wrong is also one word, that that you are

Who many words is solid chunk?
You know what I meant. Solid chunk is one piece. You could just say a piece of solid. Iím sorry that your English is weak
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:03 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
You know what I meant. Solid chunk is one piece. You could just say a piece of solid. Iím sorry that your English is weak


Because when you realise you've said something truly stupid, it's always best to double down, right?

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Old 18th April 2019, 08:04 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I can barely believe that a person can so willfully ignorant about basic concepts and the results of well established facts.

After all, rockets have been successfully operating in the vacuum of space for well over 60 years now.

In fact, if rockets could not operate in the vacuum of space, then it would not have been possible for the Apollo astronauts to go to the Moon and back in 1969 (plus a few more times after that).
To posters familiar with this kind of argument: I run on the assumption that woo believers were never properly educated on the fundemental physics, then they run across a woo peddler who slides in absurdities under the guise of critical analysis. It would by necessity have to be dumbed down and missing critical components to be plausible, but seem to the new woo recipient to be scientifically sound, hence the resistance to correction. Is this the typical M.O.? I confess the psychology is a little fascinating
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