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Old 31st May 2019, 10:07 AM   #161
BStrong
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When will the op reveal the name of the lawsuit involving his cherry picked video?
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Old 31st May 2019, 10:17 AM   #162
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
.Then it should be easy for you to quote where I made that claim.
I already did, in the post you quoted but evidently did not read.

Quote:
Let's see it.
If you insist. Any trouble seeing it now?
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
[W]e all want vaccines to be as safe as can be.
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Old 31st May 2019, 11:51 AM   #163
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For the record ...

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy
.Then it should be easy for you to quote where I made that claim.
I already did, in the post you quoted but evidently did not read.

Quote:
Let's see it.
If you insist. Any trouble seeing it now?
Quote:
[W]e all want vaccines to be as safe as can be.
Itchy Boy has been asked about this many, many times in this thread. For example, on the first page alone in post#2, post#3, post#9, post#11, and post#15.

In post#16 Itchy Boy's response is, well, a little odd (so it seems to me):

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Originally Posted by bruto
What does "as safe as can be" actually even mean, though? We could, after all, make a vaccine that is nearly perfectly safe simply by putting nothing useful in it and spreading it on your feet, but maybe if we consider "safe as they can be" as meaning that vaccines are as safe as it's practicable to make them without reducing their effectiveness, we should just answer "yes" and end it right there.
Maybe you're right. The DHHS, who have the responsibility for vaccine safety, have not filed a single report to Congress as required every 2 years, starting 1989, pursuant to the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986.

Surely that's because vaccines were made as safe as humanly possible by 1986, and so there was no point in the DHHS fulfilling their mandate to promote new and safer vaccines and to make or assure improvements in manufacturing, testing, labelling, storage, field surveillance, reaction reporting and other aspects of vaccine safety and monitoring.

But, if vaccines were 'safe as can be' by 1986, why should the DHHS be given a mandate to improve safety and to report their accomplishments to Congress every two years?
So, despite "as safe as can be" being central to the OP, Itchy Boy does not seem willing to explain what he means by it, nor to consider that others find this central concept to be, well, problematic.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:28 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I already did, in the post you quoted but evidently did not read.



If you insist. Any trouble seeing it now?
Only in your mind does
"We all want vaccines to be as safe as can be"
mean the same as
"there's a universal standard".

But with all that rocket stuff floating around your brain, it's understandable how you might conflate the two concepts so I'll cut you some slack.

Nevertheless, as promised, I'll try to be clearer in the future and that may inspire you to be even more creative whenever you misconstrue my words.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:31 PM   #165
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Your posts are hard to follow, man. I don't mean that in an unkind way, just, I have no idea wtf you're on about, and it seems like other people are struggling too.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:35 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Only in your mind does
"We all want vaccines to be as safe as can be"
mean the same as
"there's a universal standard".
For the record, it is also in my (JeanTate's) mind.

Quote:
<ad hom snipped>

it's understandable how you might conflate the two concepts

<snip>
For the record, conflating the two is Reading Comprehension 101 (rocket science is optional ). Especially here, in the SMM&T board of the ISF.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:35 PM   #167
BStrong
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Nevertheless, as promised, I'll try to be clearer in the future and that may inspire you to be even more creative whenever you misconstrue my words.
Don't bother.

Most posters saw through you on page 1 of this thread.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:40 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Only in your mind does
"We all want vaccines to be as safe as can be"
mean the same as
"there's a universal standard".
Nonsense. It can have no other meaning in the context of the argument in which you placed it. Here is that context:
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I'll start by saying that 'Anti-vaxxer' is an inaccurate term meant to be derogatory and divisive, when in reality, we all want vaccines to be as safe as can be.
You meant to admonish against name-calling and otherizing. You told us names such as "anti-vaxxer" were inappropriately and artificially divisive since, in the end, we all have the same standard for safety. Pray tell how that argument was supposed to work without "We all..." not intended as a universal statement.

Quote:
But with all that rocket stuff floating around your brain, it's understandable how you might conflate the two concepts so I'll cut you some slack.
Personalizing the argument now, I see. You must be running out of steam.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:43 PM   #169
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@JeanTate You were going to find that quote of me saying "1% = 2.6%".
Did you find it yet, or do you need more time to patch together something? Maybe you and Jay could have a little competition to see who can be the most creative in misconstruing my words.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:43 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Your posts are hard to follow, man. I don't mean that in an unkind way, just, I have no idea wtf you're on about, and it seems like other people are struggling too.
Sums up my thoughts. It's like guiding a soap bubble.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:47 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post



Personalizing the argument now, I see. You must be running out of steam.
Wait for the random tangent from nowhere, while ignoring you.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:53 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Maybe you and Jay could have a little competition...
More personalization of the debate. We seem to have you at a loss for actual argument.

Quote:
...to see who can be the most creative in misconstruing my words.
You've presented no evidence to support a complaint of misrepresentation. Further, this is not the first time I've had to remind you of things you said earlier in the debate. Perhaps you wish them to be forgotten so that the gradual backpedaling of your argument that has taken place over the past few pages does not seem so much like concession.

It's okay to change one's mind in a debate -- even to admit defeat. In fact, it demonstrates that one is willing to be swayed by evidence and reason. What seems less honest is to pretend one never made the arguments in the first place.
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:54 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
@JeanTate You were going to find that quote of me saying "1% = 2.6%".
Indeed (I'll ignore the mis-construal).

Quote:
Did you find it yet, or do you need more time to patch together something? <snip>
Neither.

I decided to focus.

And what better thing to focus on than the two central points in your OP.

Starting with "as safe as can be". Which, oddly, is the topic of my very first post in this thread (and in fact the post immediately after the OP).
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Old 31st May 2019, 12:59 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
For the record, it is also in my (JeanTate's) mind.
As I mentioned, unless it was intended as a universal maxim the argument he meant to make from it is nonsensical. Whether it's the core of his larger argument regarding vaccines or not, I'm really only looking for him to reconcile it against his more recent suggestion that individuals will justifiably apply different standards of safety. If that's a concession of his previous point, it ought to be clearly pointed out as such so that we don't hold him further accountable for it. If, as he claims, I have somehow misconstrued his meaning, then he can do us the courtesy of explaining what that original meaning was and how it gives life to his desire not to be inappropriately otherized. If it rings sound enough, I will happily grant it to him. But merely claiming misrepresentation without evidence or explanation to that effect smacks more of playing games than of arguing in good faith.
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Old 31st May 2019, 01:05 PM   #175
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Another concern people have is the revolving door between regulatory agencies and the companies they regulate. Briefly, here's why. (Yes, I'm moving on, gifting you all with a golden opportunity to cry 'moving the goalposts'.)

https://drfarrahcancercenter.com/fda...evolving-door/

"And if reviewers happen to be sitting across the table with industry representatives - who are also former colleagues - they may be a little more likely to approve a drug [or vaccine] that doesn't have the greatest evidence behind it, consciously or not."

"There are other ways the revolving door can impact what drugs [and vaccines] get approved, said Joel Lexchin, a professor at York University in Canada who has long studied conflicts of interest."
"First, these people don't give up their FDA contacts when they move to industry, and that may give the company they work for preferential access to decision-makers", he said. "Second, knowing the way the FDA works also means that you know where the weaknesses in the FDA evaluation system are, and it's possible they may help their company exploit these weaknesses."
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Old 31st May 2019, 01:13 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Yes, I'm moving on...
Yes, you're changing the subject with suspicious timing.

You've accused your critics of misrepresenting you, without providing any evidence that they have done so and ignoring the evidence they have offered of their forthright intent in holding you accountable. Further, you've drifted into ad hominem territory.

At this point the question you should be addressing is why, with such an egregious display of bad-faith argumentation on your part, any reasonable person should want to move on with you.
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Old 31st May 2019, 02:27 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Only in your mind does
"We all want vaccines to be as safe as can be"
mean the same as
"there's a universal standard".

But with all that rocket stuff floating around your brain, it's understandable how you might conflate the two concepts so I'll cut you some slack.

Nevertheless, as promised, I'll try to be clearer in the future and that may inspire you to be even more creative whenever you misconstrue my words.
Either you are unsure of what your statements mean or you are indulging in a very common dodge of declaring that all interpretation, paraphrasing, or restatement of what you say is irrelevant to what you say. It's a common ploy when people say something that cannot be supported, to require that response be to exactly what one has said, without referring to any implications.

When you say we all want something, then you imply that the want is universal and that the something wanted is universally understood, its meaning universally accepted. That's a universal standard, like it or not. If "we all want the same thing" does not imply a universal standard, it is either false or too imprecise to have a useful meaning.
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Old 31st May 2019, 03:22 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes, you're changing the subject with suspicious timing.
As I predicted. He/she likes moving goalposts.
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Old 31st May 2019, 03:30 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Only in your mind does

"We all want vaccines to be as safe as can be"

mean the same as

"there's a universal standard".
I can't think of anything more expressive of a universal standard in human relations than the phrase "we all want".

What did *you* mean by "we all want"?
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Old 31st May 2019, 03:52 PM   #180
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For perspective, today parents in the US:

Fed their kids food.

Gave their kids baths using water from the tap.

Some gave them over-the-counter medications for a variety of "mild illnesses".

Some strapped their kids into a car seat, and drove their automobile somewhere.

All of these things carry the same risk as vaccinations. Putting your kid in a car is hundreds of times more dangerous than a vaccination of any kind. Society has agreed on standards for water purification, food safety, and transportation safety. At all levels those who provide these services and products constantly work to insure safety, and are always looks for ways to improve safety.
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Old 31st May 2019, 10:11 PM   #181
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The thing the 'Just asking questions about vaccines' crowd always seems to ignore is that we HAVE the statistics about a population not exposed to the risks of vaccines and the "toxins" they introduce

And it is true, none of those people suffered any effects from the inoculation.
Of course, their mortality rates were several orders of magnitudes higher from the actual diseases, but no sore arms from a needle.

On the other hand, we do suffer from overpopulation, so maybe we *should* stop vaccinating. And I'm sure some labs still have both Polio and smallpox somewhere, we should let those loose at some airports then.
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Old 1st June 2019, 12:26 AM   #182
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Itchy Boy, can you define your standard for “as safe as can be”? Unless you do so it is impossible to know whether vaccines conform to it.
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Old 1st June 2019, 03:06 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
The thing the 'Just asking questions about vaccines' crowd always seems to ignore is that we HAVE the statistics about a population not exposed to the risks of vaccines and the "toxins" they introduce

As I've said before, you can judge how sincerely someone is "just asking questions" by how much attention they pay to the answers to those questions.
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Old 1st June 2019, 03:42 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Maybe you're right. The DHHS, who have the responsibility for vaccine safety, have not filed a single report to Congress as required every 2 years, starting 1989, pursuant to the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986.

Surely that's because vaccines were made as safe as humanly possible by 1986, and so there was no point in the DHHS fulfilling their mandate to promote new and safer vaccines and to make or assure improvements in manufacturing, testing, labelling, storage, field surveillance, reaction reporting and other aspects of vaccine safety and monitoring.

But, if vaccines were 'safe as can be' by 1986, why should the DHHS be given a mandate to improve safety and to report their accomplishments to Congress every two years?

This really gives the game away.

Here’s the thing: “safe as humanly possible” in 1986 is not the same as “safe as humanly possible” in 2019. There’s always going to be room for improvement in any human endeavour. Nothing will ever be perfect, or completely lacking in risk.

It’s clear from the way Itchy Boy uses the term that “safe as can be” here is a standard that is unattainable. Itchy Boy is an anti-vaxxer, because the only vaccines he approves of are vaccines that can never exist.
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Last edited by Mojo; 1st June 2019 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 1st June 2019, 08:43 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
It’s clear from the way Itchy Boy uses the term that “safe as can be” here is a standard that is unattainable. Itchy Boy is an anti-vaxxer, because the only vaccines he approves of are vaccines that can never exist.
That is certainly one way to read the overall tenor of the thread. However in the narrow argument I lifted the phrase from, it meant simply that there should be no such labels between us because superlative vaccine safety is a universal standard -- something "we all want." Whatever the details of such a standard might be, his argument was that we all shared it and so the otherism that he senses from skeptics didn't have a rational basis. It had to be divisive and mean-spirited.

Later he agreed that each person is likely to have an individual standard. So a natural question is then what we should make of that first claim. And there are many ways it could have been reconciled in good faith. For example, he could have maintained the distinction between risk and risk-benefit, saying that the former applied to the first and the latter to the second. He could have opined that but for the heat of debate, we probably do have a more similar standard than we let on. Or, at the very limit, he could have said, "My earlier statement turns out not to be supported by fact." And here's the funny part: the argument he tried to make from it would still retain most of its teeth. Admonitions against name-calling and divisiveness generally stand on their own, on the basic civility principle. He doesn't need the universal standard to be true in order to call for civility and respect in the discourse.

His objection to conceding it tells a story on it own. Instead he dug in and insisted that his critics "must" have misinterpreted him. Now that's also a possible reconciliation. But in order for that particular one to hold, you have to give the actual correction. You have to tell people what you really meant. He didn't do that. Instead he hurled some veiled insults and tried to change the subject. That makes it seem like the accusation of misrepresentation was more desperate, gaslightly shot in the dark instead of a reasoned complaint. And if the people you claim misconstrued you are able to show that their construction is not only reasonable, but the only one that fits the line of reasoning it's in, then the running away becomes even more egregious.

Now look at all of this in light of the thread. He made an argument that, to use legal terminology, sounds in statistics. But he didn't supply a statistics argument, and all but admitted he lacks the skill to do so. All right, that's ordinarily fatal to such an argument. But instead we got the old pseudo-science chestnut that amounts to someone's ignorance being just as valid as someone else's knowledge.

At some point in the thread he expressed the hope that by his example we would see that at least some "vaccine safety advocates" were capable of having a reasoned discussion. Sadly he's proven exactly the opposite in his case. A reasoned discussion requires a proponent to concede the point when the facts are clearly not in his favor. Instead we get evasion, recrimination, and a staunch reluctance to admit even the slightest failure. This is not a footing on which a reasonable discussion can be had.
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Old 1st June 2019, 09:02 AM   #186
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It's a shame that there isn't a vaccine for scientific ignorance, aside from education.
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Old 1st June 2019, 10:39 AM   #187
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https://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b1483.full

"Nine doctors and scientists at the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) sent a letter to President Barack Obama on 2 April [2009], saying they wanted “to draw your attention to the frustration and outrage that FDA physicians and scientists, public advocacy groups, the press, and the American people, have repeatedly expressed over the misdeeds of FDA officials.”"

"In the letter the scientists and doctors said: “Recent press reports revealed extensive evidence of serious wrongdoing by Dr Andrew von Eschenbach [former FDA commissioner], Dr Frank M Torti [acting FDA commissioner], top FDA attorneys, Center and Office directors, and many others in prominent positions of authority at FDA.""

"The letter added that “many other FDA managers who have failed to protect the American public, who have violated laws, rules, and regulations, who have suppressed or altered scientific or technological findings and conclusions, who have abused their power and authority, and who have engaged in illegal retaliation against those who speak out, have not been held accountable and remain in place.”"
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Old 1st June 2019, 10:42 AM   #188
JeanTate
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
For perspective, today parents in the US:

Fed their kids food.

Gave their kids baths using water from the tap.

Some gave them over-the-counter medications for a variety of "mild illnesses".

Some strapped their kids into a car seat, and drove their automobile somewhere.

All of these things carry the same risk as vaccinations. Putting your kid in a car is hundreds of times more dangerous than a vaccination of any kind. Society has agreed on standards for water purification, food safety, and transportation safety. At all levels those who provide these services and products constantly work to insure safety, and are always looks for ways to improve safety.
Not every day but certainly many, (some/many) parents also:

Put their kids on a school bus, where there are many other kids.

Let their kids mingle with many others, both kids and adults, at pre-schools, kindergartens, etc.

Encouraged their kids to exercise and play sports, thus coming into close contact with dirt (or soil, if you prefer), dung, fungi, plants ...

Let their kids play with animals of many species, “pets”.

And so on.

There’s a lot more to safety than the activity of isolated individuals ...
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Old 1st June 2019, 10:44 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
https://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b1483.full

"Nine doctors and scientists at the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) sent a letter to President Barack Obama on 2 April [2009], saying they wanted “to draw your attention to the frustration and outrage that FDA physicians and scientists, public advocacy groups, the press, and the American people, have repeatedly expressed over the misdeeds of FDA officials.”"

"In the letter the scientists and doctors said: “Recent press reports revealed extensive evidence of serious wrongdoing by Dr Andrew von Eschenbach [former FDA commissioner], Dr Frank M Torti [acting FDA commissioner], top FDA attorneys, Center and Office directors, and many others in prominent positions of authority at FDA.""

"The letter added that “many other FDA managers who have failed to protect the American public, who have violated laws, rules, and regulations, who have suppressed or altered scientific or technological findings and conclusions, who have abused their power and authority, and who have engaged in illegal retaliation against those who speak out, have not been held accountable and remain in place.”"
Do I see some goalposts moving?
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:01 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Do I see some goalposts moving?

No, they’re already out of sight.
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:03 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Do I see some goalposts moving?

He is also repeating himself. He tried this idiocy on the other thread.
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:25 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
"Nine doctors..."
I'm still waiting for you either to substantiate your accusation that I misrepresented you, or to withdraw it. I've provided a defense of my construction, which you have entirely ignored. Is insulting your critics how you plan to show the anti-vaxx movement has credibility and can argue in good faith?
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:44 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Do I see some goalposts moving?
It's a regular St Vitus dance
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:49 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
He is also repeating himself. He tried this idiocy on the other thread.
The letter describes serious systemic problems at the FDA.
Do you suppose those problems would have no impact on the safety of vaccines? Food? Drugs?
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Old 1st June 2019, 11:52 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The letter...
Still waiting for you to substantiate or withdraw your accusation that I misrepresented your statement asserting a universal standard for vaccine safety. Dropping accusations, failing to support them, and then frantically changing the subject is not a good way to show that anti-vaxxers are prepared to argue in good faith.
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Old 1st June 2019, 01:00 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The letter describes serious systemic problems at the FDA.
Do you suppose those problems would have no impact on the safety of vaccines? Food? Drugs?
And this helps us understand what you mean by “as safe as can be”, how, exactly?
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Old 1st June 2019, 01:03 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
The letter describes serious systemic problems at the FDA.
Do you suppose those problems would have no impact on the safety of vaccines? Food? Drugs?
You are facing the same problem w/ your "letter" that you were faced with the video.

There's two sides to every story and you wish to enter only one side of the discussion into your argument.
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Old 1st June 2019, 01:20 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
You are facing the same problem w/ your "letter" that you were faced with the video.

There's two sides to every story and you wish to enter only one side of the discussion into your argument.
What's the other side to the story the letter tells?

When you 'argue' with someone, do you present both sides?
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Old 1st June 2019, 01:24 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
What's the other side to the story the letter tells?

When you 'argue' with someone, do you present both sides?

Do you actually know what the other side of this argument is? Can you provide us a link to it?
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Old 1st June 2019, 01:37 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
When you 'argue' with someone, do you present both sides?
You are expected to be aware of the arguments the other side has made or will like make, and to address in your argument the evidence that seems to speak in favor of the other side. An inability to explain contrary evidence marks a poor argument.

And then there is the question of cherry-picked evidence. If you represent a source as arguing for a certain conclusion when you only present the parts of the source that seem to support the conclusion, you may not have fairly represented the source. That goes too for relying upon third party material that may have cherry-picked its primary source. Please be sure you aren't doing that.

And on the subject of misrepresentation, I'm still waiting for you to either substantiate or withdraw your accusation that I misrepresented your claim that "we all" want a certain degree of vaccine safety. I was kind enough to answer your accusation with evidence and rationale to support my reading of it. You seem very eager to sweep that whole matter under the carpet. May we expect the same degree of irresponsibility as you move on?
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