ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd June 2019, 12:41 PM   #241
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,613
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Many, if not most of the technical and social advances throughout history have been the result of questioning 'authority'.
Wait, what?

You are claiming that a refusal to get your kids vaccinated (against what, smallpox? polio? rabies?) will lead to at least one (major) technical advance, such as the integrated circuit?
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 12:46 PM   #242
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,649
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
True. And it's precisely the second that leads to major advances.
The first really only affects people on a personal level.

Okay, well, we live in different worlds I guess.

Have fun in yours.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 12:46 PM   #243
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,613
Wow, just wow.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
True. And it's precisely the second that leads to major advances.
The first really only affects people on a personal level.
You really are claiming that a refusal to vaccinate the sibling of your child who has just been bitten by a rabid bat will lead to a technological revolution like steam power!
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 12:50 PM   #244
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,649
Bf would like to clarify (lol) - "I believe in vaccines. I definitely believe they work and are safe. I oppose mandatory vaccinations. I realize those statements seem contradictory. Maybe they are. I don't care."

So, not an anti-vaxxer. Yay!
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 01:13 PM   #245
Itchy Boy
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CANADA
Posts: 724
https://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i6194 (Published 23 November 2016)

"The FDA has been long under fire for excluding certain advisory committee members from participating or voting in hearings on new drugs or products because of what it claims are “intellectual conflicts of interest.”

On 20 February 2009, Janet Woodcock, director of FDA’s Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, acknowledged that a “mistake was made” during a highly publicized incident in which an expert was recused for an alleged “intellectual conflict.” Eli Lilly, manufacturer of prasugrel, had called the FDA four days before an advisory panel was to review the drug. The company suggested that committee member Sanjay Kaul had an “intellectual bias” and objected to his presence on the panel. Kaul, a cardiologist, had independently studied the drug and found important safety problems. Two days before the hearing, the FDA “disinvited” Kaul because of an alleged intellectual conflict. The advisory committee approved prasugrel.

Public Citizen, a watchdog organization based in Washington, DC, protested, saying that “the last-minute removal of Dr Sanjay Kaul, a regular voting member of the cardiovascular and renal drugs advisory committee with substantial knowledge about prasugrel, significantly limited critical discussion of the safety of this drug.”

When the “disinvitation” came to light, Woodcock defended the agency’s action at a news conference, telling journalists that the call from Eli Lilly had nothing to do with Kaul’s exclusion. She said a mistake was made when the agency screened him for financial conflicts but “did not focus on the fact that there might have been an intellectual bias.” She said, “As soon as we realized what had happened…we put in place procedures along every step of the way that [everyone] is aware of now…. So I can pretty confidently say that this is not going to happen again.”7

But disinvitations and exclusions of critics have happened repeatedly—both before and after the 2009 episode.

Shannon Brownlee, senior vice president of the Lown Institute, a think tank focused on appropriate use of healthcare resources, told The BMJ that the claim that someone “lacks impartiality” has been used to favor industry interests historically, thereby undermining the scientific process. She said, “The degree to which the FDA is willing to convene advisory panels that are biased in favor of industry is simply jaw-dropping."
__________________
It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
Itchy Boy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 01:19 PM   #246
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,582
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
What happens to them I don't care about.
It's what they do to their children, and the effect they have on other people's children by convincing others to follow their idiocies.
Yes, that's the one - and also why I read Pipeline reasonably often during the week.
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 02:10 PM   #247
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,819
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
https://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i6194 (Published 23 November 2016)

"The FDA has been long under fire for excluding certain advisory committee members from participating or voting in hearings on new drugs or products because of what it claims are “intellectual conflicts of interest.”

On 20 February 2009, Janet Woodcock, director of FDA’s Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, acknowledged that a “mistake was made” during a highly publicized incident in which an expert was recused for an alleged “intellectual conflict.” Eli Lilly, manufacturer of prasugrel, had called the FDA four days before an advisory panel was to review the drug. The company suggested that committee member Sanjay Kaul had an “intellectual bias” and objected to his presence on the panel. Kaul, a cardiologist, had independently studied the drug and found important safety problems. Two days before the hearing, the FDA “disinvited” Kaul because of an alleged intellectual conflict. The advisory committee approved prasugrel.

Public Citizen, a watchdog organization based in Washington, DC, protested, saying that “the last-minute removal of Dr Sanjay Kaul, a regular voting member of the cardiovascular and renal drugs advisory committee with substantial knowledge about prasugrel, significantly limited critical discussion of the safety of this drug.”

When the “disinvitation” came to light, Woodcock defended the agency’s action at a news conference, telling journalists that the call from Eli Lilly had nothing to do with Kaul’s exclusion. She said a mistake was made when the agency screened him for financial conflicts but “did not focus on the fact that there might have been an intellectual bias.” She said, “As soon as we realized what had happened…we put in place procedures along every step of the way that [everyone] is aware of now…. So I can pretty confidently say that this is not going to happen again.”7

But disinvitations and exclusions of critics have happened repeatedly—both before and after the 2009 episode.

Shannon Brownlee, senior vice president of the Lown Institute, a think tank focused on appropriate use of healthcare resources, told The BMJ that the claim that someone “lacks impartiality” has been used to favor industry interests historically, thereby undermining the scientific process. She said, “The degree to which the FDA is willing to convene advisory panels that are biased in favor of industry is simply jaw-dropping."
You really should post the ACTUAL LINK where you are getting your Anti-Vax information. The site you got your information from included the BMJ link, but not the quotes you provided, and you thought by providing that BMJ link you could hide your true information source. Oops.

I noticed a similar difference in reference to the 2009 FDA letter from the 9 Doctors, which included quotes [and edits] "from the letter" that were not actually in the letter, nor within the BMJ link you provided. Again, whatever your actual source, the article contained the link to BMJ, but not the quotes you included. Oops.

So, include your anti-vax sites so we can see how deep in the anti-vax weeds you are.
__________________
- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']

Last edited by The Greater Fool; 2nd June 2019 at 02:12 PM.
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 02:25 PM   #248
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,613
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
You really should post the ACTUAL LINK where you are getting your Anti-Vax information. The site you got your information from included the BMJ link, but not the quotes you provided, and you thought by providing that BMJ link you could hide your true information source. Oops.

I noticed a similar difference in reference to the 2009 FDA letter from the 9 Doctors, which included quotes [and edits] "from the letter" that were not actually in the letter, nor within the BMJ link you provided. Again, whatever your actual source, the article contained the link to BMJ, but not the quotes you included. Oops.

So, include your anti-vax sites so we can see how deep in the anti-vax weeds you are.
This seems to be common, for IB.

One thing I'm surprised by, re this modus operandi of IB, is that he hasn't sought to change it (apparently).

It doesn't take much to learn - from reading a random selection of threads here, for example - that ISF members who regularly post in this SMM&T board can be quite demanding in terms of scholastic (scientific, logic) rigor!

So why is IB posting (or perhaps better, continuing to post) here?

To me, the more he's posted here, the more obvious it is that he has no "case" to present (beyond handwaving, cherry picking, obfuscation, etc).
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 02:28 PM   #249
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 24,029
Here's how I read it.

We are all agree that vaccines are, in overall risk/benefit ratio, a good deal.

We also, likely, agree that within the range of risk/benefit ratio which is a good deal, it is sometimes possible to decrease the risk even more, and that this ought to be done even if the risk benefit ratio is already good.

Our original poster believes the risk is greater than it might be, or than it is made out to be, owing in part to poor monitoring, but is unable to provide evidence that it is so and does not seem entirely clear on the meaning of the sources he cites. Though those responding remain convinced that the risk is as small as it can be, and though there is evidence of vaccine manufacturers over the years improving safety, the original poster is not satisfied with that answer, and the green grass grew all around all around.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 04:05 PM   #250
wasapi
Philosopher
 
wasapi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,982
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Bf would like to clarify (lol) - "I believe in vaccines. I definitely believe they work and are safe. I oppose mandatory vaccinations. I realize those statements seem contradictory. Maybe they are. I don't care."

So, not an anti-vaxxer. Yay!
I would say they are quite contradictory. As well as a rather obtuse defense on his part. It has a (foot stomping) ring to it, like, "And you can't make me do anything I don't want to. People in government can't tell people what they have to do! (stomp)

That's harsh, sorry. He wants to do the right thing, but feels, perhaps, resentful of being told what to do. I feel the same way in that I have always been stubborn and independent, and don't like being told what to do, which is why I preferred to work for myself. He sounds like a good guy.
__________________
Julia
wasapi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 04:06 PM   #251
Itchy Boy
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CANADA
Posts: 724
CBS News article about the letter
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fda-cor...-your-engines/

The letter:
https://www.finance.senate.gov/ranki...ans-scientists

A scan of the letter, plus another similar one sent to John Podesta when he led Obama's transition team,
and authentication of the letters by FDA.

i.bnet.com/blogs/cert-fda-letter-to-the-president-4-2-09-and-trans-team-1-7-09.pdf
__________________
It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan

Last edited by Itchy Boy; 2nd June 2019 at 04:09 PM. Reason: grammar
Itchy Boy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 04:22 PM   #252
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,613
Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Bf would like to clarify (lol) - "I believe in vaccines. I definitely believe they work and are safe. I oppose mandatory vaccinations. I realize those statements seem contradictory. Maybe they are. I don't care."

So, not an anti-vaxxer. Yay!
With some hesitation, may I ask if the topic of children has come up?
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 04:24 PM   #253
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,613
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
CBS News article about the letter
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fda-cor...-your-engines/

The letter:
https://www.finance.senate.gov/ranki...ans-scientists

A scan of the letter, plus another similar one sent to John Podesta when he led Obama's transition team,
and authentication of the letters by FDA.

i.bnet.com/blogs/cert-fda-letter-to-the-president-4-2-09-and-trans-team-1-7-09.pdf
Have you heard the expression “when you’re in a hole, stop digging”?
JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 04:30 PM   #254
Itchy Boy
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CANADA
Posts: 724
A clickable link from my previous post.
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/cert-fda-let...eam-1-7-09.pdf

And here's another story about excluding experts from advisory panels.
https://www.bmj.com/content/329/7476/1203.1

The US Food and Drug Administration has barred one of its own experts from serving on the panel considering the safety of cyclo-oxygenase-2 (COX 2) inhibitors after he made remarks indicating that valdecoxib (Bextra) may—like rofecoxib (Vioxx), which was recently withdrawn from the market by Merck—cause heart attacks and strokes.

Dr Curt Furberg, a member of the FDA's drug safety advisory committee and a prominent authority on drug safety, was told his invitation to participate in FDA hearings on the safety of COX 2 inhibitors had been rescinded. This followed his being quoted in the New York Times on 10 November as saying that a study that he and his colleague performed “showed that Bextra is no different than Vioxx, and Pfizer is trying to suppress that information.”

Victoria Kao, spokesperson for the FDA, told the BMJ that Dr Furberg's removal was the result of a routine review of all panel members for “financial and intellectual conflicts of interest.” When asked about the timing of Dr Furberg's removal, only days after his interview with the New York Times but months before the panel is to meet in February 2005, Ms Kao said that was because “it takes a long time” to do all the reviews.
__________________
It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
Itchy Boy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 04:37 PM   #255
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,649
Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I would say they are quite contradictory. As well as a rather obtuse defense on his part. It has a (foot stomping) ring to it, like, "And you can't make me do anything I don't want to. People in government can't tell people what they have to do! (stomp)

That's harsh, sorry. He wants to do the right thing, but feels, perhaps, resentful of being told what to do. I feel the same way in that I have always been stubborn and independent, and don't like being told what to do, which is why I preferred to work for myself. He sounds like a good guy.
Haha, nope not harsh! Exactly what I think. It's like that stereotypical American stubbornness thing.

I think he doesn't think about it much beyond surface ideology since the issue doesn't really affect him in current real life. He has all his vaccinations and so does his daughter. So it doesn't really come up except when people are discussing the political or hypothetical side of it. He just has a few of those "muh freedomz!" based opinions, lol.

I know a few people from my old job who are very dramatic and vocal about their vaccine opinions, to the point that I won't let them talk about the subject with me.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 04:38 PM   #256
isissxn
Rough Around the Edges
 
isissxn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Deep Storage
Posts: 5,649
Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
With some hesitation, may I ask if the topic of children has come up?
Oh, that will never happen haha. This **** is shut down.

He does have a child from a previous relationship though. She has all her vaccines. With a lot of people, it seems to be a sort of philosophical "freedom" thing rather than an actual problem they have themselves with vaccines. It seems very American to me. (I am American.)


EDIT: I've digressed, though. That's not what seems to be happening in this thread. As far as I can tell, these are more like the usual "safety" objections. A couple I know who hold those kinds of opinions and hang out in those kinds of webspaces have kids who aren't vaccinated.

Last edited by isissxn; 2nd June 2019 at 04:54 PM.
isissxn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 05:10 PM   #257
JeanTate
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,613
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
A clickable link from my previous post.
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/cert-fda-let...eam-1-7-09.pdf

And here's another story about excluding experts from advisory panels.
https://www.bmj.com/content/329/7476/1203.1

The US Food and Drug Administration has barred one of its own experts from serving on the panel considering the safety of cyclo-oxygenase-2 (COX 2) inhibitors after he made remarks indicating that valdecoxib (Bextra) may—like rofecoxib (Vioxx), which was recently withdrawn from the market by Merck—cause heart attacks and strokes.

Dr Curt Furberg, a member of the FDA's drug safety advisory committee and a prominent authority on drug safety, was told his invitation to participate in FDA hearings on the safety of COX 2 inhibitors had been rescinded. This followed his being quoted in the New York Times on 10 November as saying that a study that he and his colleague performed “showed that Bextra is no different than Vioxx, and Pfizer is trying to suppress that information.”

Victoria Kao, spokesperson for the FDA, told the BMJ that Dr Furberg's removal was the result of a routine review of all panel members for “financial and intellectual conflicts of interest.” When asked about the timing of Dr Furberg's removal, only days after his interview with the New York Times but months before the panel is to meet in February 2005, Ms Kao said that was because “it takes a long time” to do all the reviews.
I think this is a fitting response ...

Debout, les damnés de la terre
Debout, les forçats de la faim
La raison tonne en son cratère
C'est l'éruption de la fin
Du passé faisons table rase
Foule esclave, debout, debout
Le monde va changer de base
Nous ne sommes rien, soyons tout

JeanTate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 05:31 PM   #258
Pope130
Master Poster
 
Pope130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,988
Originally Posted by Elvis666 View Post
I still have a smallpox scar on my upper arm. It is very faint, but it's there. Everyone in my age group that I know had one, it was very much visible when we were kids.
Got one myself, very faint. I'm a bit of a nit-picker (well, Ok, I'm obsessive about detail), and I used to get distracted watching a historical film, and spotting vaccination scars outside their time period.
Pope130 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 06:56 PM   #259
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,667
Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Got one myself, very faint. I'm a bit of a nit-picker (well, Ok, I'm obsessive about detail), and I used to get distracted watching a historical film, and spotting vaccination scars outside their time period.
See that's what I don't get at all. Things have radically changed since I was in Grade School. We all got our shots on the same day by the school nurse at public school. I remember it clearly. The teacher lined us up and single file we went right down the row past the school nurse who gave everyone 3 shots. Two shots with normal needles and one with a kind of prickly thing that had 6 or 8 needles. That last one was the small pox vaccine.

Anyone refused and they went straight home and couldn't come back till they had their shots....at least that's what the nurse said as no one refused .... although a few girls cried.

Then a couple times we all had to line up and show our shoulders to make sure the small pox one "took", or else we would need another. What that meant I have no idea. But I think they might have been just checking for infections? Not sure.

Incidentally we also had to line up and do routine eye checks and even hearing checks once a year at school too.

So I really don't see why we even allow unvaccinated kids in society at all. It's child abuse! We don't even treat our dogs and cats so poorly as that!
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 07:04 PM   #260
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,819
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
CBS News article about the letter
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fda-cor...-your-engines/

The letter:
https://www.finance.senate.gov/ranki...ans-scientists

A scan of the letter, plus another similar one sent to John Podesta when he led Obama's transition team,
and authentication of the letters by FDA.

i.bnet.com/blogs/cert-fda-letter-to-the-president-4-2-09-and-trans-team-1-7-09.pdf
As should be obvious by now, even though you just now discovered the letter you referenced that was sent to Obama, some of us already had this information, which is how we were able to comment on the content and comment on your "quotes" from this document which were not, as you have just learned, actually from the document.

You finally posting this information now is underwhelming in it's timing and content. Unsurprisingly, you have failed to reveal from where you got your "quotes" which you recently learned were not from the Obama letter, but from the anti-vax site that lied to you.

Again, from which anti-vax site did you get your "we want vaccines as safe as can be" comments from?

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
A clickable link from my previous post.
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/cert-fda-let...eam-1-7-09.pdf
Doesn't mention the word Vaccine. I'm betting it's not related to vaccines.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
And here's another story about excluding experts from advisory panels.
And pain killers have exactly what to do with vaccines? Oh yeah, exactly nothing.

Can you connect anything to vaccines in your vaccine thread?
__________________
- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 08:42 PM   #261
Itchy Boy
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CANADA
Posts: 724
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
As should be obvious by now, even though you just now discovered the letter you referenced that was sent to Obama, some of us already had this information, which is how we were able to comment on the content and comment on your "quotes" from this document which were not, as you have just learned, actually from the document.

You finally posting this information now is underwhelming in it's timing and content. Unsurprisingly, you have failed to reveal from where you got your "quotes" which you recently learned were not from the Obama letter, but from the anti-vax site that lied to you.

Again, from which anti-vax site did you get your "we want vaccines as safe as can be" comments from?



Doesn't mention the word Vaccine. I'm betting it's not related to vaccines.


And pain killers have exactly what to do with vaccines? Oh yeah, exactly nothing.

Can you connect anything to vaccines in your vaccine thread?
I gather from your comments that you don't believe what's described in the letter could negatively impact vaccine safety. Is that correct?
__________________
It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan

Last edited by Itchy Boy; 2nd June 2019 at 08:44 PM. Reason: clarity
Itchy Boy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd June 2019, 11:30 PM   #262
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,974
"Evasion noted"
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 12:38 AM   #263
Planigale
Illuminator
 
Planigale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,092
Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Wow, just wow.



You really are claiming that a refusal to vaccinate the sibling of your child who has just been bitten by a rabid bat will lead to a technological revolution like steam power!
Well he would be right to do so! The child who was bitten by the bat should get accelerated anti-rabies vaccination - the only proven method of preventing the child from dying horribly. Unless the sibling had been playing with the bat too there is no indication for other family members to be vaccinated.
Planigale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 05:27 AM   #264
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,819
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I gather from your comments that you don't believe what's described in the letter could negatively impact vaccine safety. Is that correct?
Tell you what, you answer my questions and I'll answer yours.

To refresh: Which anti-vax site(s) are you using to get your information?
__________________
- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 05:58 AM   #265
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,187
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
'It wasn't meant to imply any specific standard.
But your statement was meant to imply that we all want the same thing, whatever thing you meant. That turned out not to be the case, but you found it so very difficult to concede the equivalence. And you were given oh-so-many chances to clarify what you meant by "as safe as can be." Instead you choose to get all blamey.

Quote:
I'm not aware of anyone calling for specific standards. What people are calling for is more data.
No, you are quite clearly saying there isn't enough data to reason confidently about vaccine safety. When asked to justify that, your argument is merely, "Well, more data yields more confidence." That's a generally true statement, but it doesn't support an argument that we presently don't have enough. You have to delve into piles of conspiratorial claims for that, all the while pretending the statistical argument you can't understand and can''t make will just somehow work itself out.

Quote:
For example a proper study comparing the fully vaccinated to the unvaccinated.
You don't know what a "proper" study should be. You have an ignorant impression of what you think should be a proper standard of safety, and you're trying to foist that on everyone. "No, I'm not," you might say. But, assuming you aren't vaccinated or are in control of people who aren't, do you let them go out in public and mingle freely with others? Or do you responsibly keep yourself and your unvaccinated wards out of all situations in which you might cause harm? Unless you properly cloister yourself away, you're foisting your opinion on everyone else just as surely as you fear others are. The difference is that others know the facts better than you.

Quote:
People want choice. For the most part, they're not opposed to vaccines for those who want them.
What about those who want them, but can't have them? What about the people who rely on there being as "few people as can be" (just a turn of phrase) walking around voluntarily carrying and spreading preventable communicable diseases which can have disastrous effects? What if one of those people would have grown up to cure cancer, but died because of your choice?

You don't want choice. You want everyone else to respect your choice. Except you don't have a good enough argument to persuade anyone that your choice is rational.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 07:45 AM   #266
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Wait for the random tangent from nowhere, while ignoring you.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Another concern people have is the revolving door between regulatory agencies and the companies they regulate.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 07:50 AM   #267
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,598
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I'm not aware of anyone calling for specific standards. What people are calling for is more data. For example a proper study comparing the fully vaccinated to the unvaccinated. That kind of thing.
Such a study would necessarily rely on withholding vaccines from one of the test groups. It would be grotesquely unethical.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
People want choice. For the most part, they're not opposed to vaccines for those who want them.

But they don't want to be forced or coerced to vaccinate.
They don't want religious or philosophical exemptions to disappear.
They don't want medical exemptions to be decided by distant bureaucrats instead of their doctor, as is happening in California.
Really? Well, let us take a look at the consequences of such choices.

In 2009, Herbert and Catherine Schaible's two year old came down with pneumonia. They chose to pray as mandated by their faith rather than seek medical attention. The child died.

Not content with killing one child by their choice, in 2014, their 8 month old son came down with pneumonia. They once again made the same choice to pray rather than seek medical attention. He, of course, died as well.

And you somehow think that is fine and dandy.

Now, horrible as it is to inflict such suffering on one's own children, it is a step worse to put others children at risk as well. And that is the overweening arrogance of anti-vaxxers. Not only do they want to mess up their own children, they are happy and content to mess up everyone else's while they are about it.

And you support that.

Now, inevitably, you are going to reply that you don't support that, you simply support choice.

What choice did those dead kids have? Who spoke out for them and their welfare? It wasn't their parents. They just made a choice, right?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 08:06 AM   #268
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,840
My elephant in the room is that if 99% of adverse reactions go unreported, that suggests to me that the vaccine is extremely safe - about as safe as a hangnail. But to ItchyBoy, it seems to suggest that vaccines may be much more dangerous than we know, but the people experiencing the danger aren't telling anyone.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 08:26 AM   #269
Itchy Boy
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CANADA
Posts: 724
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Tell you what, you answer my questions and I'll answer yours.

To refresh: Which anti-vax site(s) are you using to get your information?
OK, you're silence has answered my question.
Unless you say otherwise, I must conclude you believe what the letter describes can not affect vaccine safety.

I've posted links to the sites from which I posted information.
__________________
It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
Itchy Boy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 08:28 AM   #270
Itchy Boy
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CANADA
Posts: 724
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Did you learn something new when I first posted about the 70+ doses the CDC recommends? You called '70 dose nonsense'.
If you thought the number was lower, where did you get that misinformation?
__________________
It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
Itchy Boy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 08:29 AM   #271
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
A clickable link from my previous post.
http://i.bnet.com/blogs/cert-fda-let...eam-1-7-09.pdf

And here's another story about excluding experts from advisory panels.
https://www.bmj.com/content/329/7476/1203.1

The US Food and Drug Administration has barred one of its own experts from serving on the panel considering the safety of cyclo-oxygenase-2 (COX 2) inhibitors after he made remarks indicating that valdecoxib (Bextra) may—like rofecoxib (Vioxx), which was recently withdrawn from the market by Merck—cause heart attacks and strokes.

Dr Curt Furberg, a member of the FDA's drug safety advisory committee and a prominent authority on drug safety, was told his invitation to participate in FDA hearings on the safety of COX 2 inhibitors had been rescinded. This followed his being quoted in the New York Times on 10 November as saying that a study that he and his colleague performed “showed that Bextra is no different than Vioxx, and Pfizer is trying to suppress that information.”

Victoria Kao, spokesperson for the FDA, told the BMJ that Dr Furberg's removal was the result of a routine review of all panel members for “financial and intellectual conflicts of interest.” When asked about the timing of Dr Furberg's removal, only days after his interview with the New York Times but months before the panel is to meet in February 2005, Ms Kao said that was because “it takes a long time” to do all the reviews.
1 - Those aren't your words. They are copied from the bmj article. Please put quotations from sources in the quotation box.
2 - You don't have access to the bmj, but you're posting more text than is available by following that link. Where are you getting this information? I'd like to see it and check that your quotes are accurate.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 08:33 AM   #272
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
Did you learn something new when I first posted about the 70+ doses the CDC recommends? You called '70 dose nonsense'.
If you thought the number was lower, where did you get that misinformation?
Your recollection is incorrect, and you are quoting me out of context. Not that it matters, given your dismal performance here, but my comment was about your shifting the goalposts to some 70 dose nonsensical argument, not that there weren't 70 doses of vaccines administered to people.

Last edited by carlitos; 3rd June 2019 at 08:41 AM. Reason: added link for transparency
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 09:16 AM   #273
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,649
I see that Itchy Boy still can not quote sources accurately and is just pulling a FOX News on the thread.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 09:18 AM   #274
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,649
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
OK, you're silence has answered my question.
Unless you say otherwise, I must conclude you believe what the letter describes can not affect vaccine safety.
This is utter **** and ********, you have sophistry now.
You don't have data and you can't state a coherent argument to argue a wet paper bag.
You post above is just philosophical **** because you can't garner reality that reconciles with your nonsense.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 09:25 AM   #275
Itchy Boy
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CANADA
Posts: 724
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
1 - Those aren't your words. They are copied from the bmj article. Please put quotations from sources in the quotation box.
2 - You don't have access to the bmj, but you're posting more text than is available by following that link. Where are you getting this information? I'd like to see it and check that your quotes are accurate.
1. I don't always put quotes around large blocks of text because it should be obvious those aren't my words, and the link is right there.

2. The BMJ links, for me, get right to the article, so yes, I have access.
Apparently for Skeptic Ginger, and perhaps you, it's behind a pay wall.
I can't do anything about that. In the post you quoted, every word came from the BMJ article.
__________________
It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled. - unattributed

Only the small secrets need to be protected. The large ones are kept secret by public incredulity. - Marshall McLuhan
Itchy Boy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 09:46 AM   #276
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 11,657
The full BMJ article "FDA bars own..." is available by installing the Unpaywall browser extension, going to the article and looking for a green open padlock on the right,
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 09:52 AM   #277
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 11,657
Anyway that's the USA. Try looking at data from the European Medicines Agency which operates on the precautionary principle - i.e. " It covers cases where scientific evidence is insufficient, inconclusive or uncertain and preliminary scientific evaluation indicates that that there are reasonable grounds for concern that the potentially dangerous effects on the environment, human, animal or plant health may be inconsistent with the high level of protection chosen by the EU. "
And guess what? Vaccines good.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 10:16 AM   #278
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,819
Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
OK, you're silence has answered my question.
Unless you say otherwise, I must conclude you believe what the letter describes can not affect vaccine safety.
Great, then I'll assume you are, in reality, an anti-vax nutjob.

Wow, we just got through all your crap.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I've posted links to the sites from which I posted information.
Liar.

You included quotes within your posts that were NOT from the links you provided.
__________________
- "Who is the greater fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 10:21 AM   #279
ServiceSoon
Graduate Poster
 
ServiceSoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,473
Is it factual that if the body is exposed to measles naturally, the antibodies are passed onto offspring? Whereas this does not occur when the antibodies are a result of a vaccine? Yesandyes.

If anybody wants to talk about cost/benefit; If the options are pay me now, or pay me for the rest of our existence, I bet the former would be the most cost effective.

Before the measles vaccination was administered in the 1960's, medicine at that time was able to greatly reduce the mortality rate to less than 1 per 100,000 incidences. It was only in the last 30 years that scientist have determined how important vitamin A is when fighting a measles infection. That would further reduce the mortality rate by about 50% (Based on estimates by WHO). I wonder what the mortality rate is for natural infection of measles with modern-day medicine? I would hazard a guess of 1 for every 500,000.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Such a study would necessarily rely on withholding vaccines from one of the test groups. It would be grotesquely unethical.
Not necessarily true. There are individuals whom; 1. Already have natural immunity, 2. Refuse to be vaccinated. It would not be unethical to use them as a control group.
ServiceSoon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd June 2019, 10:32 AM   #280
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Before the measles vaccination was administered in the 1960's, medicine at that time was able to greatly reduce the mortality rate to less than 1 per 100,000 incidences. It was only in the last 30 years that scientist have determined how important vitamin A is when fighting a measles infection. That would further reduce the mortality rate by about 50% (Based on estimates by WHO). I wonder what the mortality rate is for natural infection of measles with modern-day medicine? I would hazard a guess of 1 for every 500,000.
The measles fatality rate today is 1 in 10,000. Unless you mean something different by "natural infection" or something.

link

Last edited by carlitos; 3rd June 2019 at 10:33 AM.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:22 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.