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Old 4th June 2019, 12:27 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I don't hold that vaccines cause autism. Only that the science isn't settled.

You want to teach the controversy.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:01 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
What I said:
What the links say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://ecdc.europa.eu
... natural immunity against measles, which is acquired through disease, gives life-long immunity while vaccination does not.
Originally Posted by ncbi.nlm.gov
The study suggests that the vaccine-induced measles antibodies decline with time and may fall under the protective level.
The problem is that 'natural immunity' in a population where the infection recirculates is not the same as vaccination intended to stop an infection circulating. When measles recirculates effectively this means that those with 'natural immunity' have continued boosting. Once the infection no longer circulates there is no boosting of immunity other than if a booster is given.

In general vaccination is a public health measure; it is most effective on a population basis (if the population is sufficiently immunised) as it prevents circulation of the infection and protects those who cannot be effectively immunised.

Rubella is a trivial illness, no one who is vaccinated gains much. But it is devastating for the unborn child if the expectant mother is infected. Rubella vaccination protects unborn children. Rubella is an archetypal altruistic vaccine, good for the public as a whole of minimal benefit for the individual vaccinated.

Epidemiologists when thinking about vaccine strategies do think about the risk of shifts in the vulnerable population does vaccinating children cause a shift in infection to vulnerable adults where it may be more serious. Rubella vaccine used to be given to adolescent girls to protect their future children but the infection was allowed to circulate naturally. But this failed to protect the few women who either failed to be vaccinated or the vaccine failed to work for. So there was a move to MMR in childhood to prevent the circulation of rubella. But this was matched by a drive to catch up vaccinate women who might be vulnerable until the infant vaccinated cohort were grown up.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:29 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I'll start by saying that

I don't oppose vaccines for anyone who wants them for themselves or their children.

and

I have never and would never advise anyone to not vaccinate.
That's nice.

Quote:
A more accurate moniker than 'anti-vaxxer' would be 'vaccine safety awareness advocate', but I guess that's too much of a mouthful.
So what are you doing to promote vaccine safety awareness?

Quote:
'Anti-vaxxer' is an inaccurate term meant to be derogatory and divisive,
No, it's entirely accurate.

Quote:
when in reality, we all want vaccines to be as safe as can be.
Not all of us, so you are wrong.

Quote:
I will present evidence that the regulatory agencies responsible for vaccine safety are not properly doing their jobs. Cronyism and conflicts of interest abound.
Hardly surprising. Cronyism and conflicts of interest abound everywhere, and most people don't do their jobs 'properly'. But... how does this relate to vaccine safety awareness?

Quote:
How can safety be properly monitored if only a tiny fraction of reactions are reported?
You've been provided with a satisfactory answer to this one, so can we drop it?

Quote:
Here's 7 minutes of Dr. Stanley Plotkin, renown and fiercely pro-vaccine vaccinologist, attempting damage control.
I see what you did there...

Quote:
All that matters here is whether what I post is true or not.
No, that's not all that matters. You stated that 'the science isn't settled' so facts obviously aren't enough for you.

You describe yourself as a 'vaccine safety awareness advocate'. How does calling the science into question improve awareness of vaccine safety? Seems to me that - intentionally or not - you are actually eroding it.
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Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 4th June 2019 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:43 AM   #324
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Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
<snip>

Originally Posted by JeanTate
Irrespective of how poor such a control group would be, how do you find people who have a natural immunity to rabies, say?
I'm not very motivated to answer your question because I'm talking about measles, however, there is a species of bats that have natural immunity. Understanding the mechanism behind their immunity may prove beneficial for human dominance of all things.

<snip>
May I suggest that you have not read the title of this thread ("Are vaccines as safe as can be"), nor the OP (key parts copied below)?

I don't oppose vaccines for anyone who wants them for themselves or their children.

and

I have never and would never advise anyone to not vaccinate.

A more accurate moniker than 'anti-vaxxer' would be 'vaccine safety awareness advocate', but I guess that's too much of a mouthful.

'Anti-vaxxer' is an inaccurate term meant to be derogatory and divisive, when in reality, we all want vaccines to be as safe as can be.

I will present evidence that the regulatory agencies responsible for vaccine safety are not properly doing their jobs. Cronyism and conflicts of interest abound.

A study by Harvard estimates that only 1% of vaccine adverse reactions are reported. Even if they're off by a factor of 10, that would still mean 90% of reactions go unreported.


If you want to discuss measles, and measles vaccines, only ... perhaps you could start a separate thread?
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:46 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
You get the disease and you develop natural immunity for life. Those antibodies are passed onto offspring for the first year where the process repeats.

If you receive a vaccine, and a second does of the vaccine, your immunity may fall below protective levels and the antibodies are not passed to offspring.

It's called passive immunity. What am I missing??
One thing that you're missing is that this clearly does not apply to things like smallpox, polio, and rabies (in humans, at the 100% level).
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:50 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
All that matters here is whether what I post is true or not. If I've posted a specific untruth, kindly point it out so that I may correct it.
Here in the US, a great many people are familiar with "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"; maybe you are too?

When one "cherry picks", one may be "posting the truth", but clearly not "the whole truth".

It has been pointed out, many times in this thread, that much of what you have posted is indeed cherry picking.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:01 AM   #327
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To be clear, vaccine induced immunity can be passed from mother to baby. In the UK pregnant women are encouraged to have whooping cough vaccine to protect their new born child. The immunity from the mother will pass to the child and protect the child until they are old enough to receive the pertussis vaccine. Whooping cough in a neonate is a very serious illness.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:17 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
The link you provided verified what I said. I'll quote it:That decrease in mortality was BEFORE the vaccine was administered. The rate of .2 per 100,000 translates to 2 per 1,000,000. That is the same as 1 per 500,000 which is what I guessed in my original post.
So when you said you wonder what the fatality rate for measles is with "modern-day medicine" you meant "in 1963?" That's an odd usage of the present tense.
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Old 4th June 2019, 08:25 AM   #329
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The BMJ editorial (or letter to the editor; I doubt it was actually an editorial opinion), which is free of any untruth, rhetoric, or hyperbole, clearly states that it's Houston that has the problem. Those of us who live elsewhere should move on to more pressing issues.
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:11 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The BMJ editorial (or letter to the editor; I doubt it was actually an editorial opinion), <snip>
What IB has provided a link to (in this post) is one (of several) "Response" to an "Article" (editorial).

So yes, you are right ... it's not an editorial opinion, more like a letter to the editor.

This particular Response has the author listed as "Bernadette Pajer, co-president, Informed Choice WA, Washington State, USA" (as RC already noted, here).
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:27 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I don't hold that vaccines cause autism. Only that the science isn't settled.
I don't advocate that MMR not be used. I don't advise anyone not to vaccinate.

How about this? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

Quote:
A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism

Abstract

BACKGROUND
It has been suggested that vaccination against measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) is a cause of autism.

METHODS
We conducted a retrospective cohort study of all children born in Denmark from January 1991 through December 1998. The cohort was selected on the basis of data from the Danish Civil Registration System, which assigns a unique identification number to every live-born infant and new resident in Denmark. MMR-vaccination status was obtained from the Danish National Board of Health. Information on the children's autism status was obtained from the Danish Psychiatric Central Register, which contains information on all diagnoses received by patients in psychiatric hospitals and outpatient clinics in Denmark. We obtained information on potential confounders from the Danish Medical Birth Registry, the National Hospital Registry, and Statistics Denmark.

RESULTS
Of the 537,303 children in the cohort (representing 2,129,864 person-years), 440,655 (82.0 percent) had received the MMR vaccine. We identified 316 children with a diagnosis of autistic disorder and 422 with a diagnosis of other autistic-spectrum disorders. After adjustment for potential confounders, the relative risk of autistic disorder in the group of vaccinated children, as compared with the unvaccinated group, was 0.92 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24), and the relative risk of another autistic-spectrum disorder was 0.83 (95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.07). There was no association between the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

CONCLUSIONS
This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.

I don't think you'll find stronger evidence for the safety of MMR relative to autism. How do you view this?
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Old 4th June 2019, 09:41 AM   #332
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:03 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
A "might" and a "be . "... the antibodies might not be passed to offspring".
Passive immunity.

The obvious case where antibodies would not be passed to the offspring is if the mother had none. The placenta might be a barrier to antibodies or may actively pass antibodies but someone with more medical knowledge should answer that. I found IgG Placental Transfer in Healthy and Pathological Pregnancies but that may not be relevant.
I can appreciate you injecting doubt that the antibodies may not transfer to the child. Is your doubt confirmed by any studies? I have verified that the measles antibodies are passed from mother to child, first through placenta, and then through breast milk.

I agree that the obvious case of the antibodies unable to pass from the mother to the child is if they are not first present in the mother. That is why I am advocating that we consider allowing the immune system of health adults to do what it does best and develop immunity naturally, that will then be passed onto the child for the first year of that child's life. If the mother receives antibodies from a vaccine, those antibodies are also passed onto the child, however, they are passed on less efficiently when compared to mothers with naturally derived antibodies.

I read the abstract section from your source, and I was unsure what specific aspect you wanted me to recognize as the most important. I personally liked the first sentence:
Originally Posted by ncbi
Breastfeeding is known as the most efficient way to prevent infectious disease in early life.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:13 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
There is something obviously wrong with this: if it was true, humanity would have developed immunity against measles long before the vaccine was introduced.
FYI my generality pertaining to vaccinations is about measles.

It does not matter if an individual receives antibodies as a result of a vaccine or as a result of their immune system developing the antibodies naturally. if the antibodies are developed naturally, it is more efficient when contrasted with vaccinations. Unfortunately, that immunity is only passed to offspring for the first 6 to 12 months after birth. After that time, the child would have to be exposed to the virus and develop their own natural immunity. And that is not a death sentence nor do i believe it is inhumane.

When measles first came into prominence during the early 1900's in the United States, the mortality rate was 10 deaths for every 100,000 infected. By 1960 (a few years BEFORE the vaccination become common), that rate plummeted to 1 death in 500,000 infected. With today's advancement in medical technology, I personally estimate that rate has decreased further to 1 death in 1 million infected. That is not WAG. it is based on the fact that in the last 30 years the World Health Organization discovered that vitamin A can reduce the mortality rate for measles by 50%.

I'm not convinced that we need the measles vaccination anymore.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:21 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
So when you said you wonder what the fatality rate for measles is with "modern-day medicine" you meant "in 1963?" That's an odd usage of the present tense.
My mistake - the footnote in my own source says 1963. I was wrong; please disregard.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:51 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
What IB has provided a link to (in this post) is one (of several) "Response" to an "Article" (editorial).

So yes, you are right ... it's not an editorial opinion, more like a letter to the editor.

This particular Response has the author listed as "Bernadette Pajer, co-president, Informed Choice WA, Washington State, USA" (as RC already noted, here).

The fact that it was accessible should have been a giveaway: the actual articles are behind a paywall.
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:54 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
FYI my generality pertaining to vaccinations is about measles.

It does not matter if an individual receives antibodies as a result of a vaccine or as a result of their immune system developing the antibodies naturally. if the antibodies are developed naturally,
How often does that happen?

Are there identifiable populations among whom the rate of naturally developed antibodies to measles significantly differs?

What are the primary sources on this topic?

Quote:
it is more efficient when contrasted with vaccinations.
Source?

"more efficient" in what sense?

What is the (known) population variation?

To what extent does this vary with the specific type of measles vaccine?

Quote:
Unfortunately, that immunity is only passed to offspring for the first 6 to 12 months after birth.
Source?

What metric is used to determine (or estimate) efficiency (apparently the measure you consider most appropriate)?

What is the distribution of "immunity" ("for the first 6 to 12 months after birth" says nothing about whether this is true for 40% of the relevant population, say; nor about the two tails).

Quote:
After that time, the child would have to be exposed to the virus and develop their own natural immunity. And that is not a death sentence nor do i believe it is inhumane.
What if the "child" becomes exposed to the measles virus many years later, as an adult? If a severely immunocompromised individual (child or adult) is "exposed to the [measles] virus", what are the likely adverse responses? Do those include death?

Quote:
When measles first came into prominence during the early 1900's in the United States, the mortality rate was 10 deaths for every 100,000 infected.
Source?

Quote:
By 1960 (a few years BEFORE the vaccination become common), that rate plummeted to 1 death in 500,000 infected.
Source?

Quote:
With today's advancement in medical technology, I personally estimate that rate has decreased further to 1 death in 1 million infected.
Really? That's it?

Have you written a paper describing your estimation method? Is it published in a relevant, peer-reviewed journal? If so, details please.

Quote:
That is not WAG. it is based on the fact that in the last 30 years the World Health Organization discovered that vitamin A can reduce the mortality rate for measles by 50%.
Source?

Quote:
I'm not convinced that we need the measles vaccination anymore.
I'm sure those severely immunocompromised people (transplant recipients, say, or some receiving cancer therapy) will be greatly relieved to learn of your conviction. Perhaps you could catch measles and visit them in hospital before you show any signs; I'm sure they'd be delighted to see you.

Last edited by JeanTate; 4th June 2019 at 12:22 PM. Reason: typo ("is" instead of "it")
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Old 4th June 2019, 10:56 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The fact that it was accessible should have been a giveaway: the actual articles are behind a paywall.
Indeed.

IB seems to be having a lot of difficulty understanding the sources he himself posts here. More: he also seems to struggle with why this is important.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:09 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
<snip>

I agree that the obvious case of the antibodies unable to pass from the mother to the child is if they are not first present in the mother. That is why I am advocating that we consider allowing the immune system of health adults to do what it does best and develop immunity naturally
Just want to be 100% sure I understand this: you are advocating that all healthy adults be deliberately exposed to measles?

Quote:
, that will then be passed onto the child for the first year of that child's life.

<snip>
How inefficient!

Fathers cannot pass immunity on to their children, when they are still in their mothers' wombs, can they?

If so, then only women - healthy, fertile women - need be deliberately exposed to measles, right?
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:44 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Indeed.

IB seems to be having a lot of difficulty understanding the sources he himself posts here. More: he also seems to struggle with why this is important.
Isn't it worse than that? Has there been a single citation from him that wasn't misrepresented in some major way? He's deliberately making it hard to figure out what his sources are actually saying.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:46 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
How about this? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

I don't think you'll find stronger evidence for the safety of MMR relative to autism. How do you view this?
I've never suggested MMR causes autism.
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Old 4th June 2019, 11:53 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
..

I'm not convinced that we need the measles vaccination anymore.

Did you account for deaths that come very slowly from SSPE? If so, please show your sources.


The only treatable part of measles is pneumonia. There is no medical treatment for encephalitis in reality. The reason deaths decreased in the 1950s from measles pneumonia is the advent of artificial respiration, and antibiotics for secondary bacterial infections (measles is notorious for weakening immunity).



Unfortunately, that hospitalization is very expensive. In the present American outbreak about one in ten cases requires hospitalization. So your solution for "perfect measles immunity" is going to cost how much? Why is it cheaper to increase the numbers requiring hospital care instead of preventing the disease (and two others) with two doses of an MMR vaccine?


Essentially prove this economic paper wrong: https://academic.oup.com/jid/article..._1/S131/821190
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:02 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I've never suggested MMR causes autism.

And I didn't say you did. Does this study suggest to you that MMR is safe with respect to autism?
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:02 PM   #344
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29616207

"Conclusion:

Although having better nutritional status and being protected against three infections, 6-35 months old DTP-vaccinated children tended to have higher mortality than DTP-unvaccinated children. All studies of the introduction of DTP have found increased overall mortality."
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:08 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29616207

"Conclusion:

Although having better nutritional status and being protected against three infections, 6-35 months old DTP-vaccinated children tended to have higher mortality than DTP-unvaccinated children. All studies of the introduction of DTP have found increased overall mortality."

How is 1981 Guinea-Bissau standard of life comparable to the United States of America, Canada or Denmark in the 21st century? How does child mortality almost forty years in one of the poorest nations on this planet compare to now in North America and Europe?
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:12 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
And I didn't say you did. Does this study suggest to you that MMR is safe with respect to autism?
I can't make that determination. It could well be true, but perhaps of limited value since it focuses only on one vaccine instead of the cumulative effects of all the vaccines a child has had.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:14 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I can't make that determination.
The how about listening to the experts who can?

This whole "Aw shucks I'm not an expert or anything..." routine is transparent. You'll talk about "are we sure" and "further study" and "teach the controversy" and the end result will just be you'll just ignore the 50 billion medical experts and find the one blog written in Comic Sans written by a mother in Des Moines that claims here child is vaccine injured.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:15 PM   #348
JeanTate
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Originally Posted by JeanTate
Indeed.

IB seems to be having a lot of difficulty understanding the sources he himself posts here. More: he also seems to struggle with why this is important.
Isn't it worse than that? Has there been a single citation from him that wasn't misrepresented in some major way? He's deliberately making it hard to figure out what his sources are actually saying.
I agree.

And oh so soon after your post comes this one:

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29616207

"Conclusion:

Although having better nutritional status and being protected against three infections, 6-35 months old DTP-vaccinated children tended to have higher mortality than DTP-unvaccinated children. All studies of the introduction of DTP have found increased overall mortality."
Hey, IB, what is the population that the authors of this paper studied? When were the kids referred to in this paper vaccinated? Is the "DTP" referred to in this paper the same that is currently used in the US? In Canada?

Has this paper been cited by others? If so, what ones?

ETA: ninja'd by Chris Haynes ...

Last edited by JeanTate; 4th June 2019 at 12:17 PM. Reason: ETA
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:21 PM   #349
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes View Post
How is 1981 Guinea-Bissau standard of life comparable to the United States of America, Canada or Denmark in the 21st century? How does child mortality almost forty years in one of the poorest nations on this planet compare to now in North America and Europe?
The study doesn't make those apples to oranges comparisons.

It's comparing apples to apples and even the healthier children who were vaccinated had a higher mortality rate than the unvaccinated. Multiple studies showed the same result.

ETA: The point being that a vaccine that apparently causes increased mortality was approved by experts and given to children.
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Last edited by Itchy Boy; 4th June 2019 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:29 PM   #350
JeanTate
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IB, you are in a hole.

It's quite a deep hole.

I recommend that you stop digging.

Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
It's comparing apples to apples and even the healthier children who were vaccinated had a higher mortality rate than the unvaccinated.
This.

You posted a paper on a study done on data from ~1981. In one country.

You did not even attempt to show where the vaccine reported in the paper is used, today. You did not attempt to look for papers reporting mortality rates for the same vaccine, elsewhere and at other times. And so on.

Quote:
Multiple studies showed the same result.
None of which you cited.

Do you acknowledge that your efforts here - in terms of the goals you set out in the OP - have been counter-productive?

What do you think explains your singular lack of success in communication?
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:33 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
<snip>

ETA: The point being that a vaccine that apparently causes increased mortality was approved by experts and given to children.
OMG!

You can't even accurately summarize your own sources!

Dude, it was almost four decades ago. The paper makes no mention of mortality today (or even within the last decade).

Really, please do at least TRY to lift your game ...
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:41 PM   #352
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This is the conclusion of the study, with my emphasis added.

"Although having better nutritional status and being protected against three infections, 6-35 months old DTP-vaccinated children tended to have higher mortality than DTP-unvaccinated children. All studies of the introduction of DTP have found increased overall mortality."

Again, the point of the post is that a vaccine that was thoroughly tested and deemed 'safe' by the experts resulted in increased mortality.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:44 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
FYI my generality pertaining to vaccinations is about measles.

It does not matter if an individual receives antibodies as a result of a vaccine or as a result of their immune system developing the antibodies naturally. if the antibodies are developed naturally, it is more efficient when contrasted with vaccinations. Unfortunately, that immunity is only passed to offspring for the first 6 to 12 months after birth. After that time, the child would have to be exposed to the virus and develop their own natural immunity. And that is not a death sentence nor do i believe it is inhumane.

When measles first came into prominence during the early 1900's in the United States, the mortality rate was 10 deaths for every 100,000 infected. By 1960 (a few years BEFORE the vaccination become common), that rate plummeted to 1 death in 500,000 infected. With today's advancement in medical technology, I personally estimate that rate has decreased further to 1 death in 1 million infected. That is not WAG. it is based on the fact that in the last 30 years the World Health Organization discovered that vitamin A can reduce the mortality rate for measles by 50%.

I'm not convinced that we need the measles vaccination anymore.
But for some it will be a death sentence. Death is not the only adverse outcome of natural infection, neurological damage including blindness, deafness, seizures and cognitive impairment may result, chronic lung damage may also occur. The only bad outcome of measles is not death, this is why just quoting mortality is a bad statistic. More people may survive measles, but this does not mean they survive unharmed. Some conditions such as SSPE may be delayed in onset.
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Old 4th June 2019, 12:47 PM   #354
JeanTate
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
<snip>

Again, the point of the post is that a vaccine that was thoroughly tested and deemed 'safe' in ~1981 by the experts resulted in increased mortality (a fact not discovered until ~four decades later).
FTFY ...

Are you advocating research to develop time travel, so we can go back in time and tell people then that we now know they made some mistakes? Or that we travel into the future, and ask people then what mistakes we are making now?
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:08 PM   #355
Itchy Boy
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
This is the conclusion of the study, with my emphasis added.

"Although having better nutritional status and being protected against three infections, 6-35 months old DTP-vaccinated children tended to have higher mortality than DTP-unvaccinated children. All studies of the introduction of DTP have found increased overall mortality."

Again, the point of the post is that a vaccine that was thoroughly tested and deemed 'safe' by the experts resulted in increased mortality.
And, apparently, the DTP is still used in some parts of the world, despite the red flags raised by the study.
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Old 4th June 2019, 01:12 PM   #356
Planigale
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29616207

"Conclusion:

Although having better nutritional status and being protected against three infections, 6-35 months old DTP-vaccinated children tended to have higher mortality than DTP-unvaccinated children. All studies of the introduction of DTP have found increased overall mortality."
This is an interesting study. The observation made is not unique to this study. Inactivated vaccines may have a non-specific immunosuppressive effect as compared with live attenuated vaccines. In female children there is a consistent tendency to increased non specific mortality in several good quality studies. Not a specific vaccine side effect. This is complex since with a vaccine campaign mortality from the targeted infectious disease will fall; so all (vaccinated and unvaccinated) benefit. There may be an increased relative risk in vaccinated vs unvaccinated females but an absolute risk reduction for all children.

In contrast live attenuated vaccines that deliver a larger antigenic challenge e.g. BCG are recognised to have non specific benefits in mortality. BCG vaccination protects against leprosy, and asthma (though is rather poor at protecting against TB which is its intended function).
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:04 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
I'll start by saying that

I don't oppose vaccines for anyone who wants them for themselves or their children.

and

I have never and would never advise anyone to not vaccinate.

A more accurate moniker than 'anti-vaxxer' would be 'vaccine safety awareness advocate', but I guess that's too much of a mouthful.

'Anti-vaxxer' is an inaccurate term meant to be derogatory and divisive, when in reality, we all want vaccines to be as safe as can be.

I will present evidence that the regulatory agencies responsible for vaccine safety are not properly doing their jobs. Cronyism and conflicts of interest abound.

[ed: But before we get into the cronyism and conflicts of interest...]

A study by Harvard estimates that only 1% of vaccine adverse reactions are reported. Even if they're off by a factor of 10, that would still mean 90% of reactions go unreported.

How can safety be properly monitored if only a tiny fraction of reactions are reported?

Here's 7 minutes of Dr. Stanley Plotkin, renown and fiercely pro-vaccine vaccinologist, attempting damage control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3x0rQT_eSw
Vaccines are safer than the alternative.
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Old 4th June 2019, 02:53 PM   #358
abaddon
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post

Quote:
Unfortunately, that immunity is only passed to offspring for the first 6 to 12 months after birth.
Source?

What metric is used to determine (or estimate) efficiency (apparently the measure you consider most appropriate)?

What is the distribution of "immunity" ("for the first 6 to 12 months after birth" says nothing about whether this is true for 40% of the relevant population, say; nor about the two tails).
His claim is a misrepresentation. That is why he does not cite a source.

The fact of the matter is that a mother passes her immunity (assuming she has it) to her child in the womb. Post birth, that immunity is not 100 % to start with and is entirely gone after 6-9 months.

And yes, I do have a source.

Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Quote:
After that time, the child would have to be exposed to the virus and develop their own natural immunity. And that is not a death sentence nor do i believe it is inhumane.
What if the "child" becomes exposed to the measles virus many years later, as an adult? If a severely immunocompromised individual (child or adult) is "exposed to the [measles] virus", what are the likely adverse responses? Do those include death?
Yes. Yes death is on that agenda. But more on measles deaths in a moment.

Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Quote:
When measles first came into prominence during the early 1900's in the United States, the mortality rate was 10 deaths for every 100,000 infected.
Source?
No, he wont be giving you a source for that claim either because it is flat out wrong. According to the CDC 1-3 of every thousand infected will die of complications. That is a very different number to what SS claims.

Have I a source for that? I am glad you asked. It is called the CDC. You may have heard of it?

Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Quote:
By 1960 (a few years BEFORE the vaccination become common), that rate plummeted to 1 death in 500,000 infected.
Source?
Well you wont get a source there either because see above.

Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Quote:
With today's advancement in medical technology, I personally estimate that rate has decreased further to 1 death in 1 million infected.
Really? That's it?

Have you written a paper describing your estimation method? Is it published in a relevant, peer-reviewed journal? If so, details please.
I admire your optimism.

Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Quote:
That is not WAG. it is based on the fact that in the last 30 years the World Health Organization discovered that vitamin A can reduce the mortality rate for measles by 50%.
Source?
Again, he wont give you one. WHO did indeed mandate Vitamin A for the amelioration of measles complications but again he misrepresents what WHO actually said.

Have I a source for that? Funny you should ask, it's the WHO

Just for shiggles, I will cite the relevant part of the document so you can compare the claim to what was actually stated by WHO.

Quote:
Measles and vitamin A
Vitamin A deficiency contributes to delayed recovery and to
the high rate of post-measles complications. In addition,
measles infection may precipitate acute vitamin A deficiency
and xerophthalmia. As a result, measles accounts for a large
proportion of preventable childhood blindness, particularly
in Africa.
The beneficial impact of 2 doses of vitamin A during treatment
of measles is well established.7
WHO’s current policy8
advocates administering vitamin A to all acute cases. A high dose
of vitamin A is given immediately on diagnosis and repeated
the next day. The recommended age-specific daily doses are
50 000 IU for infants aged <6 months, 100 000 IU for infants
aged 6–11 months, and 200 000 IU for children aged ≥12
months. If the child has clinical signs of vitamin A deficiency
(such as Bitot’s spots), a third dose should be given 4–6 weeks
later. Even in countries where measles is not usually severe,
vitamin A should be given to all cases of severe measles.

Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Quote:
I'm not convinced that we need the measles vaccination anymore.
I'm sure those severely immunocompromised people (transplant recipients, say, or some receiving cancer therapy) will be greatly relieved to learn of your conviction. Perhaps you could catch measles and visit them in hospital before you show any signs; I'm sure they'd be delighted to see you.
Yes, the towering ignorant arrogance is quite the thing to behold. He seems to care not that it could kill people.
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Old 4th June 2019, 03:02 PM   #359
Chris Haynes
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Originally Posted by Itchy Boy View Post
...

It's comparing apples to apples and even the healthier children who were vaccinated had a higher mortality rate than the unvaccinated. Multiple studies showed the same result.

...

Post those studies. Just make sure the author is not Aaby. He has been trying to milk his time in Guinea-Bissau for the last ten years. He has been p-hacking what little data he got in the 1980s in an effort to turn himself into some new "maverick." Only folks like you fall for it.


Edit to add: it is only "apples to apples" if children in North America and Europe are living where the water supply also contains sewage. So where in Canada are kids playing in puddles with sewage? I know Victoria is finally going to treat its sewage, but still there were no open sewers.
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Old 4th June 2019, 04:12 PM   #360
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
That decrease in mortality was BEFORE the vaccine was administered
That is correct - that decrease was before the vaccine. But there was another decrease after the vaccine and attributable to the vaccine.

Vaccination and All-Cause Child Mortality From 1985 to 2011: Global Evidence From the Demographic and Health Surveys
Or the WHO: Measles vaccination resulted in a 80% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2017 worldwide.
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