ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

Reply
Old 3rd August 2019, 05:11 PM   #3321
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,830
Originally Posted by The Man View Post
I believe The Great Zaganza was referring to Mueller having the stamina of going through the courts to subpoena Trump's under oath testimony.
Ah, thanks. That makes sense.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2019, 05:14 PM   #3322
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 18,538
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My position is that if he legitimately had the evidence - if he knew for an indictable fact - that Donald Trump had conspired to steal the election, then he should have gone for an indictment. Rules be damned. The man's retiring anyway. What does it matter to him if he gets cockblocked trying to bring Trump to justice? At least he would have done his best to make it right, instead of relying on Congress to read between the lines of his report and figure it out.
The problem is that your position doesn't describe the man that Mueller is. He has played it by the rulebook his entire life, so there was never any chance of him saying "Rules be damned." Your expectations of him go against the very grain of the man.

I would have loved to have seen him walk Trump out of the Whitehouse in handcuffs, but the fact is that he is driven by both a desire for Justice, and a desire to be perfectly fair. That meant that he was not only unable to indict because of the memo, but also that he had to remain fair to Trump and not directly say that Trump committed crimes. That he actually came out and said what he did, that they couldn't exonerate Trump of committing crime, probably already stretched his need to remain fair and impartial to its absolute limit as it was. To expect more really is to not understand the guy.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 06:25 AM   #3323
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,766
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
All this shows is that a lot of people really had the totally wrong expectations of what Mueller was going to say. Anyone that had been paying attention to what was going on would not have been surprised by his performance. He masterfully wasted the questioner's time when he didn't want to answer the questions, he made the Republican questioners look like a bunch of crazed Conspiracy theists, and he gave the Democrats virtually no rope to use him as the executioner for Trump. He played it perfectly non-partisanly, and make sure that never side had sound-bites that they could use to claim victory, while at the same time making sure to stand by and confirm the report he and his people worked on. Anyone that expected more than that was fooling themselves. Anyone who honestly expecting him to declare that Trump committed crimes and should be Impeached was totally delusional, just as delusional as anyone that expected him to state that Trump had been exonerated.

I expect this is a typo. In the event that it is it remains remarkably apropos.

If it is not then it is brilliantly done.

In either case I will keep it in mind for later use.

Thanks.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 12:33 PM   #3324
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,202
Moved from another thread where it would have been off topic....

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
We have email exchanges in which a senior member of the Trump campaign gleefully accepts a meeting with someone offering the support of the Russian government.

We have the numerous lies that followed to cover up that meeting and hide its true to intent.

Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Well, with all of that evidence you have, I suggest you call the FBI and let them know that you have proof of conspiracy. 19 prosecutors and 40 FBI agents spent two years and $32 million unsuccessfully looking for what you have found.
Again, you either spin the facts to suit your narrative, or ignore them completely .

The 19 prosecutors and 40 FBI agents were successful in finding what they were looking for.....

1. That members of the Trump campaign were offered help from the Kremlin, and both accepted and used that help, and then lied about it while trying to keep it secret, and

2. That Trump made several blatant attempts to obstruct the investigation into him, and to tamper with witnesses against him.

These ARE the facts, and if you had bothered to actually read the Mueller Report (and I have more than once) you would know this.

INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE DOES NOT MEAN NO EVIDENCE AT ALL!!

The only reason that other members of the Trump campaign have not been prosecuted is that the evidence they DID find was not sufficient to meet the minimum "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" standard.

The only reason Trump has not been charged with obstruction of justice, is because of the OLC Memo that a sitting president cannot be indicted. However, we know that Trump can be indicted once he leaves office (Mueller told us that if you bothered to listen). Ergo, the evidence of obstruction of justice evidence DOES meet BRD standard.

Additionally, 1024 bipartisan former line attorneys, supervisors, special prosecutors, United States Attorneys, and senior officials at the Department of Justice, have now signed their names to an open letter stating that if Trump weren't president of the United States, he would have been indicted on multiple charges for obstruction of justice and witness tampering. All their opinions are based entirely on what Mueller stated in his report.

https://medium.com/@dojalumni/statem...s-8ab7691c2aa1
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

Last edited by smartcooky; 4th August 2019 at 12:38 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 06:26 PM   #3325
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,137
AND the Mueller investigation also scored a net positive of over $10-million.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 06:32 PM   #3326
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,137
AND the Mueller investigation also scored a net positive of over $10-million.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 12:48 PM   #3327
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,456
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem is that your position doesn't describe the man that Mueller is. He has played it by the rulebook his entire life, so there was never any chance of him saying "Rules be damned." Your expectations of him go against the very grain of the man.

I would have loved to have seen him walk Trump out of the Whitehouse in handcuffs, but the fact is that he is driven by both a desire for Justice, and a desire to be perfectly fair. That meant that he was not only unable to indict because of the memo, but also that he had to remain fair to Trump and not directly say that Trump committed crimes. That he actually came out and said what he did, that they couldn't exonerate Trump of committing crime, probably already stretched his need to remain fair and impartial to its absolute limit as it was. To expect more really is to not understand the guy.
To me at least, there are 2 big questions:

1) Is it possible for someone to attempt to be SO unbiased that their unbias actually becomes a form of bias.

For example, lets say someone says "the earth is flat". You hire someone to determine if the earth is flat. They take all sorts of measurements, talk to all sorts of experts, and at the end they write a report that contains all sorts of technical information that discounts the flat earth theory, without explicitly saying "No dummy, the earth is round". That is giving more credence to the flat earth theory than is allowed.

Now, compare that to the Mueller situation.... there is more than enough evidence to surmise that Trump broke the law. Even if Mueller didn't come right out and say "Trump=guilty", he could have been a bit more direct in his statements, along the lines of "this would warrant charges if he were not the president". Or even give a more direct criticism of Barr's summary. (The law is not always black and white.. there is usually some wiggle room.)

2) Did Mueller go after everyone he could have. Even if Trump himself were off limits, he could have (for example) pursued perjury charges against Trump Jr. and Kushner (which should have fit within his mandate of laying charges in crimes he encounters during his investigations.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 03:57 PM   #3328
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,872
The FOIA case for publicly releasing the redacted portions of the Mueller report has moved a step forwards
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 02:37 AM   #3329
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,872
Not entirely sure if this is the right thread for this any more, but...: https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...76245273341961

Quote:
BREAKING: Pelosi confirms in letter that Judiciary Committee will go to court TODAY to force Don McGahn to testify.

The suit -- which still hasn't posted publicly yet -- comes more than two months after McGahn first blew off a Judiciary Committee subpoena, deferring to the Trump White House's claim that he was immune from testifying.
Article embedded in tweet.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 03:50 AM   #3330
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 40,498
It's as good as any. I am guessing this court process could drag on for years?
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 12:17 PM   #3331
tanabear
Critical Thinker
 
tanabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 348
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The problem is that your position doesn't describe the man that Mueller is. He has played it by the rulebook his entire life, so there was never any chance of him saying "Rules be damned." Your expectations of him go against the very grain of the man..
If Mueller is such a straight cat, then it is strange that a federal judge, Dabney Friedrich, had to rebuke Mueller and the Justice department for making claims not backed up by any evidence regarding the IRA(Internet Research Agency), a Russian troll farm specializing in click-bait, and its supposed links to the Russian government.

"...in a newly unsealed July 1 ruling, a federal judge rebuked Mueller and the Justice Department for suggesting that the troll farm's social media activities "were undertaken on behalf of, if not at the direction of, the Russian government." U.S. District Judge Dabney Friedrich said Mueller's February 2018 indictment "does not link the [IRA] to the Russian government" and alleges "only private conduct by private actors." The judge added the government's statements violate a prohibiting lawyers from making claims that would prejudice a case."
RCI

"In short, the Court concludes that the government violated Rule 57.7 by making or authorizing the release of public statements that linked the defendants’ alleged activities to the Russian government and provided an opinion about the defendants’ guilt and the evidence against them. The Court will therefore proceed to consider the appropriate response to that violation, beginning with the possibility of contempt."

The government was ordered "...to refrain from making or authorizing any public statement that links the alleged conspiracy in the indictment to the Russian government or its agencies."

So did Mueller hold his May press conference to avoid a contempt charge? Tom McClintock asked him about his May press conference during his testimony.

McCLINTOCK: In -- in -- in fact, the judge considering -- considered holding prosecutors in criminal contempt. She backed off, only after your hastily called press conference the next day in which you retroactively made the distinction between the Russian government and the Russia troll farms. Did your press conference on May 29th have anything to do with the threat to hold your prosecutors in contempt the previous day for publicly misrepresenting the evidence?

MUELLER: What was the question?

McCLINTOCK: The -- the question is, did your May 29th press conference have anything to do with the fact that the previous day the judge threatened to hold your prosecutors in contempt for misrepresenting evidence?

MUELLER: No.

So did Mueller lie to Congress?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. That members of the Trump campaign were offered help from the Kremlin, and both accepted and used that help, and then lied about it while trying to keep it secret,
Can you provide some more details on members of the Trump campaign being offered help from the Kremlin and accepting and using that help?
__________________
pomeroo: "Mark, where did this guy get the idea that you talked about holding aluminum in your hand?"

Undesired Walrus: "Why, Ron, Mark mentioned this on your very own show!"
tanabear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 12:22 PM   #3332
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,202
Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
If Mueller is such a straight cat, then it is strange that a federal judge, Dabney Friedrich, had to rebuke Mueller and the Justice department for making claims not backed up by any evidence regarding the IRA(Internet Research Agency), a Russian troll farm specializing in click-bait, and its supposed links to the Russian government.

"...in a newly unsealed July 1 ruling, a federal judge rebuked Mueller and the Justice Department for suggesting that the troll farm's social media activities "were undertaken on behalf of, if not at the direction of, the Russian government." U.S. District Judge Dabney Friedrich said Mueller's February 2018 indictment "does not link the [IRA] to the Russian government" and alleges "only private conduct by private actors." The judge added the government's statements violate a prohibiting lawyers from making claims that would prejudice a case."
RCI

"In short, the Court concludes that the government violated Rule 57.7 by making or authorizing the release of public statements that linked the defendants’ alleged activities to the Russian government and provided an opinion about the defendants’ guilt and the evidence against them. The Court will therefore proceed to consider the appropriate response to that violation, beginning with the possibility of contempt."

The government was ordered "...to refrain from making or authorizing any public statement that links the alleged conspiracy in the indictment to the Russian government or its agencies."

So did Mueller hold his May press conference to avoid a contempt charge? Tom McClintock asked him about his May press conference during his testimony.

McCLINTOCK: In -- in -- in fact, the judge considering -- considered holding prosecutors in criminal contempt. She backed off, only after your hastily called press conference the next day in which you retroactively made the distinction between the Russian government and the Russia troll farms. Did your press conference on May 29th have anything to do with the threat to hold your prosecutors in contempt the previous day for publicly misrepresenting the evidence?

MUELLER: What was the question?

McCLINTOCK: The -- the question is, did your May 29th press conference have anything to do with the fact that the previous day the judge threatened to hold your prosecutors in contempt for misrepresenting evidence?

MUELLER: No.

So did Mueller lie to Congress?



Can you provide some more details on members of the Trump campaign being offered help from the Kremlin and accepting and using that help?

Dabney Friedrich; Trump appointed lackey

No surprises there
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:14 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.