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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 27th April 2019, 02:01 PM   #321
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Trump's been right before.
He's wrong far more often. Laughably wrong, which is generous. Trump lives in a fantasy world of his own narcissism, unconnected from reality or fact.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:05 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
How would spinning put him in jeopardy? Suppose that he really didn't think that "spying" is an accurate term for what happened in Trump's campaign, but he chose to use it anyway. There is no possibility I can see, absent a memo saying "There was no spying," that he could be charged with lying under oath.
Barr might be a Trump toady and an complete arse-hole, but he ain't stupid.

Putting the word "think" in there was quite obviously a deliberate choice in order to make himself immune from being accused of lying under oath.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:08 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I think Hillary was obligated to tell the truth when placed under oath at congressional hearings. What bothered me about Hillary is that she wasn't placed under oath during questioning by the FBI, doesn't that seem odd or improper to you?

Chris B.
No it doesn't. No-one is ever actually placed under oath when giving a statement to, or being questioned by the FBI. However, it is still a crime to lie to the FBI during questioning, so for all intents and purposes, she might as well have been.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:16 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nope.

You said... and I quote

"Barr is on the record as saying 'spying did occur'"

You are claiming that he made that statement as a statement of fact. HE DID NO SUCH THING. What he actually said was " I think spying did occur"... that is a statment of OPINION, not fact.

I can understand how you might not see the difference between opinion and fact, given your stance on the existence of bigfoot... but that is a another story isn't it... one that speaks to your credibility.
It would seem the Office of Inspector General also "thinks" something out of the ordinary occurred hence the prior/ongoing IG activity. "I think" was used numerous times during Barr's testimony to prevent him having to provide evidence on the spot. This is a legal tactic of how to testify before Congress. Regardless, there is an investigation ongoing by the IG and Barr announced he has started looking into all of the evidence from the multiple investigations.

The Bigfoot threads are in another section of the site. You're welcome to voice your opinions on Bigfoot and my credibility as it relates there. But before you do keep in mind I won't try to convince you one way or another.

Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:23 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No it doesn't. No-one is ever actually placed under oath when giving a statement to, or being questioned by the FBI. However, it is still a crime to lie to the FBI during questioning, so for all intents and purposes, she might as well have been.
You mean like Andrew McCabe?

https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-j...against-him-it
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:24 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
He's wrong far more often. Laughably wrong, which is generous. Trump lives in a fantasy world of his own narcissism, unconnected from reality or fact.
And many are completely obsessed with him.

Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:38 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Trump's been right before. I feel it highly unlikely Barr would attempt to "spin" something while under oath at a Congressional hearing. "Spinning" there would likely put himself in jeopardy, why would he do that? I don't think so.

Chris B.

Why should he think that? Trump shills, apologists, and darlings of the GOP have done so much spinning under oath that their bearings should have seized up, and few of them have ever faced any significant repercussions.

Frequently they are praised by their comrades in sycophancy.
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:41 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If someone robbed my house the only difficulty would be deciding whether to shoot them with one of my AR-15's or one of my AK-47's. The culprit would be easy to locate, however my wife would probably disapprove of the red stains on the new carbonized bamboo flooring.

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Golly. You could have answered the question, but I think you made the right choice. Talk instead about what a manly man you are and add something about your decorating style. I can't speak for others, but I'm mighty impressed.

Internet Tough Guy™ is always an effective counter-argument.

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Old 27th April 2019, 02:49 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Yeah, like I'm going to believe anything I read on an extreme conservative right wing website like heritage.org

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/
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Old 27th April 2019, 02:50 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
And many are completely obsessed with him.
Yep, those lackeys in the White House certainly are obsessed with him.
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Old 27th April 2019, 03:03 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, like I'm going to believe anything I read on an extreme conservative right wing website like heritage.org

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/
It's stupid to disbelieve something just because the wrong person says it. A little bit of digging would reveal that the source of the claim that McCabe lied is the DOJ Inspector General. You can find the linked report here:
https://static01.nyt.com/files/2018/...abe-report.pdf

From page 27 of the report:
"We concluded that McCabe lacked candor during an INSD interview under oath on May 9, 2017, when he falsely told the agents that he had not authorized the disclosure to the WSJ and did not know who did."

ChrisBFRPKY got this one right.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:01 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's stupid to disbelieve something just because the wrong person says it. A little bit of digging would reveal that the source of the claim that McCabe lied is the DOJ Inspector General. You can find the linked report here:
https://static01.nyt.com/files/2018/...abe-report.pdf

From page 27 of the report:
"We concluded that McCabe lacked candor during an INSD interview under oath on May 9, 2017, when he falsely told the agents that he had not authorized the disclosure to the WSJ and did not know who did."

ChrisBFRPKY got this one right.
I don't have any problem with the fact that McCabe lied, its been a known for a year, although ChrisBFRPKY's reasons for bringing it up are more a case of whataboutism than the presentation of counter facts.

What I dislike about extreme sites and newspapers is the disingenuous nature of the commentary and opinion that come with it, which is why I stick to sources that present the facts and, for the most part, let the reader/viewer/listener determine what they mean. This means that I simply dismiss out of hand, sites and newspapers such as Breitbart, Heritage, Faux News, The Daily Caller, Daily Wire, Infowars and the New York post on the right, and Daily Kos, Palmer Report, Alternet and the Bipartisan Report on the left. Any information on sites like these, if it is the truth, can be obtained with a much fairer and more equitable presentation elsewhere . Anyone posts a link to sites like these, I don't follow it.

MSNBC, Mother Jones and Huffington Post is as far left as I will look, and Washington Times, American Conservative and Washington Examiner are as far right. Outside of those limits are not news sources to me, they are far right and far left mouthpieces.

PS: the only exception is Faux News, but I don't watch them for news, I watch for the entertainment value, to see how are they going to shoot themselves in the foot this week.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:04 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/...87302130753542

Quote:
Trump on Hannity says Attorney General Bill Barr after receiving the Mueller report "made a decision right on the spot” that the president hadn’t obstructed justice.
Looks to me like he already had his decision made.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:19 PM   #334
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Right before Barr said, "I think that spying occurred," he said:

"The generation I grew up in, which is the Vietnam War period, people were all concerned about spying on anti-war people and so forth by the government, and there were a lot of rules put in place to make sure that there's an adequate basis before our law enforcement agencies get involved in political surveillance. I'm not suggesting that those rules were violated but I think it's important to look at that. And I'm not talking about the FBI necessarily, but intelligence agencies more broadly."

"I think spying did occur" is actually a pretty safe statement. Spying on Russians occurred; I don't know if that's even in dispute. Right before that, he takes pains to say he's not accusing U.S. agencies of breaking the rules. How do you square that statement with "I think spying did occur?" Easy. The passive voice was used for a reason. It might have been British intelligence.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:33 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
It also looks like the IG is and has been investigating these accusations of spying on a political campaign for quite some time. This is a big deal. The IG is not investigating Barr's thoughts or feelings.

Chris B.
That he's investigating does not show that spying occurred. Don't you recall many people saying prior to the report that there was no collusion despite the investigation? Why, you just might have said that yourself, I don't know.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:45 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I do have some time to waste. I don't have so much of it that I want to delve too deeply into unrelated hypotheticals.

Chris B.
Hey, no need to explain. It was totally awesome to hear all about your kickass guns and fine flooring. It was a real contribution.
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:47 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I think Hillary was obligated to tell the truth when placed under oath at congressional hearings. What bothered me about Hillary is that she wasn't placed under oath during questioning by the FBI, doesn't that seem odd or improper to you?

Chris B.
The FBI questioning is not the point of this thread. And you didn't answer my question.

You said that you presume Barr told the truth because he was under oath. Do you uniformly apply that presumption? I know you say she was obligated to do so, but do you presume she did so?
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:50 PM   #338
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I'm wondering what these Republicans think the intelligence agencies were supposed to do when their surveillance operations started finding contacts between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

Were they supposed to stop investigating just because it became political?
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Old 27th April 2019, 04:52 PM   #339
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Spying occurred. We know that much. It's who was spied on and why they were spied on that matters. Trump's paranoid delusions, and attempts to make himself the victim, is why the facts are being distorted.
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:18 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The FBI questioning is not the point of this thread. And you didn't answer my question.

You said that you presume Barr told the truth because he was under oath. Do you uniformly apply that presumption? I know you say she was obligated to do so, but do you presume she did so?
Barr's letter wasn't "under oath". Remind when Barr's "I think" statement was made?
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:58 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
And many are completely obsessed with him.

Chris B.
I don't know about obsessed. It is more than a bit concerning when the most powerful man in the government is desperately hiding his connections to hostile foreign nations and giving security clearances to his relatives who have their own entanglements with different hostile foreign nations. Don't you think?
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Old 27th April 2019, 05:59 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The FBI questioning is not the point of this thread. And you didn't answer my question.

You said that you presume Barr told the truth because he was under oath. Do you uniformly apply that presumption? I know you say she was obligated to do so, but do you presume she did so?
I'll answer if you truly want to hear my opinion on Hillary. Here ya go. I think her past conduct of deleting emails, destroying equipment, throwing interns under the bus, pay for play etc all come at a cost. To me this would deem her testimony as questionable whether under oath or not. Evidence would need to be presented along with any statement Hillary makes in order to assign belief IMO.

Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:02 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I don't know about obsessed. It is more than a bit concerning when the most powerful man in the government is desperately hiding his connections to hostile foreign nations and giving security clearances to his relatives who have their own entanglements with different hostile foreign nations. Don't you think?
Having contacts in a foreign Country is not a crime. I would be far more concerned if Trump was selling Uranium to Russia, wouldn't you?

Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:07 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I'm wondering what these Republicans think the intelligence agencies were supposed to do when their surveillance operations started finding contacts between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

Were they supposed to stop investigating just because it became political?
It will be interesting to find out exactly what they did and compare those facts with what they could legally do. It's the only way to make sure these intelligence agencies didn't overstep their authority. I don't want Big Brother listening to my phone conversations without legal cause or warrant.

Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:10 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
It will be interesting to find out exactly what they did and compare those facts with what they could legally do. It's the only way to make sure these intelligence agencies didn't overstep their authority. I don't want Big Brother listening to my phone conversations without legal cause or warrant.

Chris B.
Didn't Edward Snowden already blow the whistle on that?
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:13 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Having contacts in a foreign Country is not a crime.
It is if you don't declare them, and then make income from them, without also declaring it.

It is also illegal under The Logan Act (18 USC § 953) for private citizens to have and make contacts with foreign governments.

When Trump was a candidate, he was a private citizen. He had direct contacts with the Kremlin

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I would be far more concerned if Trump was selling Uranium to Russia, wouldn't you?

I would be also, however, I would be even more concerned if he was trying to sell Uranium to Saudi Arabia.... oh, hang on!
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Old 27th April 2019, 06:20 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I don't want Big Brother listening to my phone conversations.
That actually doesn't happen, at least, not in the way you are inferring here.
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Old 27th April 2019, 08:01 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, that's the point. How about the rest? Talking or taking action on impeachment might not change minds on the extremes, but what about the moderates?
The moderates are not Trump supporters and would likely vote Trump out if they see that the merits of impeachment are substantiated.
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Old 27th April 2019, 08:04 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Internet Tough Guy™ is always an effective counter-argument.

It's not even a Tough Guy argument. Fire-arms are weapons that are deadly in the hands of even the most wimpiest of toddlers. It's just a straight up, psychopath/murderer argument.
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Old 27th April 2019, 10:53 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's not even a Tough Guy argument. Fire-arms are weapons that are deadly in the hands of even the most wimpiest of toddlers. It's just a straight up, psychopath/murderer argument.
You guys should really think about renting a sense of humor.

Chris B.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:28 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It is also illegal under The Logan Act (18 USC § 953) for private citizens to have and make contacts with foreign governments.
You are misrepresenting the act. It doesn’t criminalize mere contact. Furthermore, no one has ever been charged under the Logan act, and it is probably unconstitutional. Many people on both sides of the aisle would be in jeopardy if it was actually enforced.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:33 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I don't have any problem with the fact that McCabe lied, its been a known for a year, although ChrisBFRPKY's reasons for bringing it up are more a case of whataboutism than the presentation of counter facts.
I think he brought it up at least in part to show the FBI does conduct some interviews under oath. You can get in trouble by lying to them even if you aren’t under oath, but some testimony to the FBI is still sworn.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:33 PM   #353
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Logan act probably unenforceable. Because of Trump's obstruction, evidence for conspiracy isn't enough. However, Trump should be impeached because of obstruction, which is a crime in and of itself.
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Old 27th April 2019, 11:35 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
You guys should really think about renting a sense of humor.

Chris B.
I don't think it's the other people who lack a sense of humor if your jokes aren't funny.
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Old 28th April 2019, 12:40 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
If someone robbed my house the only difficulty would be deciding whether to shoot them with one of my AR-15's or one of my AK-47's. The culprit would be easy to locate, however my wife would probably disapprove of the red stains on the new carbonized bamboo flooring.

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Hilarious!
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Old 28th April 2019, 02:41 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The moderates are not Trump supporters and would likely vote Trump out if they see that the merits of impeachment are substantiated.
If.
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Old 28th April 2019, 04:19 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I'll answer if you truly want to hear my opinion on Hillary. Here ya go. I think her past conduct of deleting emails, destroying equipment, throwing interns under the bus, pay for play etc all come at a cost. To me this would deem her testimony as questionable whether under oath or not. Evidence would need to be presented along with any statement Hillary makes in order to assign belief IMO.
And yet the reason you believe Barr is equally applicable to the testimony of Hillary or pretty much anyone testifying before Congress.

"'Spinning' there would likely put himself in jeopardy, why would he do that?"

People, including, perhaps, Hillary, "spin" before Congress. They put things in a particular way to give impressions, given that such spin does not entail a provable lie under oath. "I think spying occurred," is a good example. There is literally no reason that Barr would fear consequences of saying this, since there are no consequences. Unless there are memos written by Barr saying that he does not believe spying occurred, no one could prove that this is a lie whether or not it is.

What jeopardy do you see for Barr saying that he thinks spying occurred when he does not? The term "spying" is itself vague. If surveillance counts as spying, then surely he's right. There was some surveillance of Trump campaign members, if I'm not mistaken. But "spying" makes it sound rather sinister, just as his boss would like it.
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Old 28th April 2019, 04:21 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Having contacts in a foreign Country is not a crime. I would be far more concerned if Trump was selling Uranium to Russia, wouldn't you?

Chris B.
Ignoring the pivot to Hillary, Upchurch didn't say that having contacts is a crime. He was speaking about overriding security concerns given actual financial interests in foreign nations is a genuine concern.
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Old 28th April 2019, 05:36 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Barr is on the record as saying "spying did occur". It will be interesting to find out the facts of his statement to Congress. I believe most Americans want to know the exact details of how this investigation began, what evidence was used to warrant "spying" on an opponent's political campaign and where the evidence came from. If nobody did anything wrong then there's no problem. If wrongdoing is found to have been committed by senior FBI officials, then the clean hands doctrine is out the window and the Mueller investigation would have been illegal from the start. Something to think about.

Chris B.
Perhaps if Trump was less of a dirty Russian whore, the FBI would not have monitored his attempts at collusion.
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Old 28th April 2019, 05:38 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
It will be interesting to find out exactly what they did and compare those facts with what they could legally do. It's the only way to make sure these intelligence agencies didn't overstep their authority. I don't want Big Brother listening to my phone conversations without legal cause or warrant.

Chris B.
But I do want them to investigate attempts at collusion with Russia.
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