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Tags donald trump , Ilhan Omar , immigration issues , racism incidents , racism issues , Trump controversies

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Old 18th July 2019, 05:44 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Let's suppose that Obama's presidency is the reason Trump was elected. My wife thinks so. She thinks that Obama did not do enough for the working class, thereby setting the stage for a populist. If she and you are right, then Obama shares responsibility for Trump's rise due to incompetence.

It in no way follows that Obama is the primary villain. Trump, his followers and especially the grownup GOP in the Capitol are responsible for what is actually happening now. Obama does not encourage vile bigotry, Trump does and so do his Republican enablers.

If Chamberlain's appeasement led to the Holocaust, he is still not the evil behind the genocide. If Obama's presidency paved the way for Trump, he may share some blame, but we all know where the real evil is.
....and one of the reasons (the main one ?) why Obama was unable to achieve very much was that the GOP, from day one, was dedicated to ensuring that Obama got nothing done.
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:48 AM   #42
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
....and one of the reasons (the main one ?) why Obama was unable to achieve very much was that the GOP, from day one, was dedicated to ensuring that Obama got nothing done.
[psychic]
I'm sensing a word. Rymes with "itch".
[/psychic]
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Old 18th July 2019, 05:59 AM   #44
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*Shrugs* Feet to the fire if you're a politician and your response to why you can't get anything done is because the other party won't let you, you're just admitting you suck as a politician.

"Getting stuff done even when people agree with you" is the literal defining point of politics. It's what a politician is. If you don't have that skill you're not a politician, you're an idealist wasting our time.

Besides the Republicans don't seem to have much problem doing damage when the Democrats are in power. They seemed to have figure out a way to do stuff even when they aren't completely unopposed.

If we're waiting for the Dems to control the Presidency, both Houses of Congress, SCOTUS, a majority of state governorships and state legislatures, and all the major Houses of Westeros before they can get anything done we're screwed because that ain't happening in our lifetime.

Republicans are going to be in some form of power for... ever for our purposes. If the Dems can't find someway of dealing with that (and pointing out "But they are so stupid and crazy and unreasonable!" over and over isn't dealing with) then they might as well not be there at all.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:02 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It is now in the US (and some might argue in the UK Labour Party) at least de-facto antisemitism.
The broadly accepted definition of antisemitism specifically references criticizing Israel.

Which is bollocks. The 51st State can kiss my arse and is responsible for ******* horrific things.

"New legislation entrenched discrimination against non-Jewish citizens. Israeli forces killed more than 290 Palestinians, including over 50 children; many were unlawfully killed as they were shot while posing no imminent threat to life. Israel imposed an illegal blockade on the Gaza Strip for the 11th year in a row, subjecting approximately 2 million inhabitants to collective punishment and exacerbating a humanitarian crisis"

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries...n-territories/

I quite like the Jews I've met though.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:03 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* Feet to the fire if you're a politician and your response to why you can't get anything done is because the other party won't let you, you're just admitting you suck as a politician.
So what should Obama have done? Bypass congress completely? He did that as much as he could and it wasn't pretty. Try to compromise? You know how that worked out.

I don't agree with you. In this case the other party really did cock-block everything Obama tried.

Quote:
Besides the Republicans don't seem to have much problem doing damage when the Democrats are in power.
Well I for one don't think 'doing damage' is something the Democrats should strive for. There's enough of one party doing this.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:04 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I don’t really expect an answer, but how’d you work that out?
Yeah, that's a shock. I thought it was all Hillary's fault...
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:06 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Despite the fact that a Republican president made overtly racist remarks that increased his popularity with Republicans, I think it’s important to remember that Democrats are the real racists.
DEmoCratS keEp blAckS on tHe plAntATion wiTh wElfAre aNd haNdoUts [Insert Spongebob meme here].
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:06 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Iamafalser View Post
She's an antisemitic follower of a religion that worships a savage pedophile.
So are Trump supporters…
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:07 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So what should Obama have done? Bypass congress completely? He did that as much as he could and it wasn't pretty. Try to compromise? You know how that worked out.
I'm just saying that:

The People: "Do something!"
The Sane Party: "We can't, the Unsane Party Won't Let Us!"

is a closed loop.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:08 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm just saying that:

The People: "Do something!"
The Sane Party: "We can't, the Unsane Party Won't Let Us!"

is a closed loop.
Yeah but Obama DID try.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:11 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but Obama DID try.
Yeah and that's just wonderful and peachy as a moral victory.

But on a functional level the Democratic Party might as well not exist if they can't do anything until some hypothetical future point where there's no Republicans in any position of power at all.

Especially since the Supreme Court is going to be GOP controlled for... probably the rest of our lives.

The Dems are going to be fighting with one hand tied behind their back until mid-century, minimum. They got to learn to land some blows with what they have, somehow.

I don't have exact answers as to how. That's their job. That's what we elect them for.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:14 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah and that's just wonderful and peachy as a moral victory.
Oh, stop it. That's not my point. The point is that the claim, in his case, is correct. That's all.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, stop it. That's not my point. The point is that the claim, in his case, is correct. That's all.
Yes is "technically correct." It's a perfectly fine mathematicians answer.

My point is it an unacceptable answer. If the Dems can't deal with the Republicans, what's next? We just wait for the end?
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:25 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes is "technically correct." It's a perfectly fine mathematicians answer.
It's JUST correct. It's a true statement. There's nothing technical about it.

God damn it.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:26 AM   #56
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Once upon a time, the two political parties were willing to negotiate to get things done. President Obama tried to negotiate, but a significant portion of Republican campaigning had been based on portraying the Democrats as evil, baby-killing, Grandma-kicking, Socialist monsters out to destroy America. This left the Republicans either unwilling to cooperate or unable to cooperate for fear of being condemned as traitors by the party and their base.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:33 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Once upon a time, the two political parties were willing to negotiate to get things done. President Obama tried to negotiate, but a significant portion of Republican campaigning had been based on portraying the Democrats as evil, baby-killing, Grandma-kicking, Socialist monsters out to destroy America. This left the Republicans either unwilling to cooperate or unable to cooperate for fear of being condemned as traitors by the party and their base.
And when you're playing a game of chess and the other player starts losing and decides he's no longer going to play chess but going to play "Flip the Board Over"... you can't get around that by playing chess better.

Right now the Dems and/or their supporters seem to want to stay in some impossible limbo land where the Republicans are never going to play the game right again but the Dems are going to play the game better until they win and that's not how the world works.

If the Republicans really have stopped playing the game, they aren't going to start playing it again. So the Dems might have to stop playing it as well. You're not going to talk, trick, guilt, or force the Republicans to play chess with you anymore. They got what they want by flipping over the board.

Everytime I suggest anything that counters the "Well we're losing but here's all the reason it's not our fault" narrative I get a lot of vitriol.

Again... I keep feeling like I really have to just pull an honest answer out of people on this.

Have you given up? Is victory on the table anymore or you all just watching the world burn at this point?
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:35 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes is "technically correct." It's a perfectly fine mathematicians answer.

My point is it an unacceptable answer. If the Dems can't deal with the Republicans, what's next? We just wait for the end?
Not clear what your solution is.

Should the Democrats adopt the Republican playbook and obstruct for its own sake? That doesn't seem to benefit the US in the long or short term.

Should the Democrats cave? Surely not.

The only obvious path is to attempt to govern and to reach out to the people with truth, argument and persuasion. That's not working so well, but I don't see any alternative.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:36 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Not clear what your solution is.

Should the Democrats adopt the Republican playbook and obstruct for its own sake? That doesn't seem to benefit the US in the long or short term.

Should the Democrats cave? Surely not.

The only obvious path is to attempt to govern and to reach out to the people with truth, argument and persuasion. That's not working so well, but I don't see any alternative.
Again if "All is lost, I've given up and I'm just waiting for the end" is your answer, fine, but admit it.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:47 AM   #60
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This "blame it on Obama" stuff is nonsense.
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Old 18th July 2019, 06:58 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again if "All is lost, I've given up and I'm just waiting for the end" is your answer, fine, but admit it.
What. Is. Your. Solution?
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:00 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again if "All is lost, I've given up and I'm just waiting for the end" is your answer, fine, but admit it.
I'm asking precisely what you think the alternative is.

Do you think the Democrats should adopt the strategy of the Republicans? Put party power as the end goal, freely lying to the public and obstructing the opposition even when their proposals are reasonable? What is the end goal?

If this is the strategy and if it's successful, what then? Will they govern well when in power? Or will they simply govern so as to hold onto power?

I don't regard acting on principle rather than pure interest of political power "giving up". I regard abandoning one's principles a form of surrender.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:01 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What. Is. Your. Solution?
I. Don't. Have. One.

But it's not my job to deal with the Republicans, it's the Democrats.

Besides what's your solution? Wait for the end? Hope the Republicans just all randomly drop dead or come down a sudden onset case of reasonableness and compassion? Why is it suddenly my job to write the Democrats battle plan and not yours?
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:08 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I. Don't. Have. One.

But it's not my job to deal with the Republicans, it's the Democrats.

Besides what's your solution? Wait for the end? Hope the Republicans just all randomly drop dead or come down a sudden onset case of reasonableness and compassion? Why is it suddenly my job to write the Democrats battle plan and not yours?
Ah. So your point is "It is difficult to deal with the Republicans," with a dollop of condescension for others on the forum.

Yeah, good point. No one else has noticed this.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:12 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Let's suppose that Obama's presidency is the reason Trump was elected. My wife thinks so. She thinks that Obama did not do enough for the working class, thereby setting the stage for a populist.
What should have he done?

He inherited the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression and he set the country back on the road to recovery in spite of not being left any kind of surplus to use as stimulus and the Republicans being ridiculously obstructionist.

He made one of the biggest changes in the US health care system in history.

If you look at all the trends in unemployment and wages growth - they started quite early in the Obama administration, for all that Trump wishes to take credit for them.

What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:13 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Ah. So your point is "It is difficult to deal with the Republicans," with a dollop of condescension for others on the forum.
No, no, no. Not difficult. Impossible. To the point that even suggesting that the Democrats do... well anything is met with outright defensive anger at this point.

Basically people are arguing that the Republicans have won in everything but those words and there's this almost "just go away and let me mourn and stew in peace" subtext to a lot of this.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:15 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What should have he done?

He inherited the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression and he set the country back on the road to recovery in spite of not being left any kind of surplus to use as stimulus.

He made one of the biggest changes in the US health care system in history.

If you look at all the trends in unemployment and wages growth - they started quite early in the Obama administration, for all that Trump wishes to take credit for them.

What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
It's not my opinion, but something along the lines of addressing the angst of the working class more directly. Obamacare is not popular in many regions, where the self-employed insurance rates have skyrocketed (often due to the choices of the GOP-led state governments).

I don't have any clear idea what Obama should have done, but roughly the idea is that he failed to address the issues of the working class in a way that they felt attention was being paid or something.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:17 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I. Don't. Have. One.

But it's not my job to deal with the Republicans, it's the Democrats.
And yet you see fit to criticise how they do it. So if what they're doing is wrong, how would they be doing it right? It's a very clear question.

Quote:
Besides what's your solution?
I'm not the one berating everyone for making correct observations.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:18 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
He should have done ... vague hand waves ... more. And done it faster.

I remember a political cartoon from early in his Presidency. President Obama was dressed as Ash from "The Evil Dead", using his chainsaw to slash at a horde of zombies that were all groaning "Reaganomics". A man in the background was yelling "Why haven't you fixed the economy yet?"
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:20 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No, no, no. Not difficult. Impossible. To the point that even suggesting that the Democrats do... well anything is met with outright defensive anger at this point.

Basically people are arguing that the Republicans have won in everything but those words and there's this almost "just go away and let me mourn and stew in peace" subtext to a lot of this.
That subtext may be in the eye of the beholder.

I don't know what the Democrats should do. I am not mourning or stewing or rejecting suggestions out of hand. And yet you've suggested I've given up and should admit it.

You have a nice story about the mindset of posters on this forum and you're shoehorning everyone into your story rather than addressing what is said.

ETA: In short, why not admit you've given up and have taken solace in criticizing others for not confessing their surrender?

Last edited by phiwum; 18th July 2019 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:20 AM   #71
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I think the reason for Trump's election was, in large part, due to the SCOTUS vacancy and the other vacancies that were likely to eventuate.

The Christian Right in America would have voted for Trump if he had been a Satanist rather than allow the Democrats to appoint those positions.

You only need to look at the population of evangelicals in the swing states compared to the margins to see that this is quite plausible.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:21 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And yet you see fit to criticise how they do it. So if what they're doing is wrong, how would they be doing it right? It's a very clear question.
Yes. Guilty as charged. I'm criticizing the Democrats for not being able to deal with the Republicans without having a fully realized plan of my own.

If I hire a plumber to fix a leaky toilet and he comes out and can't fix the toilet, I'm gonna fire him and get a new plumber without knowing how to fix the toilet myself as well.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
What is it that Obama didn't do that he should have done?
He should have provided simple solutions to complex problems.

Look at the Democratic Party response to the loss of coal jobs in West Virginia. It was a complex scheme of retraining which may also have required people to move as a result.

Donald Trump simply told people that he would get them their old jobs and lifestyles back and since being elected has told people that is what he has done - despite all the evidence to the contrary.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* Feet to the fire if you're a politician and your response to why you can't get anything done is because the other party won't let you, you're just admitting you suck as a politician.
If if the oppositions entire strategy is "block them"? If you are dealing with someone who has no principles, so strategy, no greater good to achieve than to &*(% you over, how to deal with them?

Quote:
"Getting stuff done even when people agree with you" is the literal defining point of politics. It's what a politician is. If you don't have that skill you're not a politician, you're an idealist wasting our time.
The old rules don't apply anymore. Republicans don't attain office to try and achieve things and compromise to get there. They attain office to shut government down. They are pretty open about that.

Quote:
Besides the Republicans don't seem to have much problem doing damage when the Democrats are in power. They seemed to have figure out a way to do stuff even when they aren't completely unopposed.
Because the Dems are really slow on the uptake and think the Republicans are working in good faith. "If we give them this now, they will gives us that later." How long until people realize that is not what is happening?

Quote:
If we're waiting for the Dems to control the Presidency, both Houses of Congress, SCOTUS, a majority of state governorships and state legislatures, and all the major Houses of Westeros before they can get anything done we're screwed because that ain't happening in our lifetime.
Which sucks because that is the only way things will get done.

Quote:
Republicans are going to be in some form of power for... ever for our purposes. If the Dems can't find someway of dealing with that (and pointing out "But they are so stupid and crazy and unreasonable!" over and over isn't dealing with) then they might as well not be there at all.
Republicans are there specifically to block Democrats. To fight them. To demonize them. The only thing that matters to them is saying "no".

There. Is. No. Working. With. Them.

What is so hard to understand about that?
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. Guilty as charged. I'm criticizing the Democrats for not being able to deal with the Republicans without having a fully realized plan of my own.

If I hire a plumber to fix a leaky toilet and he comes out and can't fix the toilet, I'm gonna fire him and get a new plumber without knowing how to fix the toilet myself as well.
It is not your criticism of the Democratic leadership that I object to. It is your criticism of mere folk on the forum for "surrendering", just because (like you) they have no real insight on what the Democrats should do.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:26 AM   #76
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I can't help but notice that this thread now has **** all to do with chanting
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:27 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. Guilty as charged. I'm criticizing the Democrats for not being able to deal with the Republicans without having a fully realized plan of my own.

If I hire a plumber to fix a leaky toilet and he comes out and can't fix the toilet, I'm gonna fire him and get a new plumber without knowing how to fix the toilet myself as well.
It sounds like you're saying that you have no idea what the problem is, like in the analogy. I'm sure that's not right.

The solution should be go appeal to voters and get the asshats out of office. Unfortunately said asshats have gamed the system and changed the rules along the way, so while it's not impossible, it's a lot harder. So they have to campaign harder while trying NOT to alienate people too much. That's the issue. Otherwise the only solutions left are extra-legal.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:31 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The solution should be go appeal to voters and get the asshats out of office. Unfortunately said asshats have gamed the system and changed the rules along the way, so while it's not impossible, it's a lot harder. So they have to campaign harder while trying NOT to alienate people too much. That's the issue. Otherwise the only solutions left are extra-legal.
That's always been my solution as well.
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:32 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's always been my solution as well.
Ok so what's your criticism, exactly?
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Old 18th July 2019, 07:34 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It is not your criticism of the Democratic leadership that I object to. It is your criticism of mere folk on the forum for "surrendering", just because (like you) they have no real insight on what the Democrats should do.
Exactly what they want to happen is to have a functioning government where the president is bound by laws and committing felonies would be a problem. But we don't really know how to get there from here because we have a problem that such large percentages of the country simply don't care about the presidents crimes. To make the government work we need the republican base to care more about the law than the party.
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