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Old 27th July 2019, 11:57 AM   #1
Trebuchet
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Can the Republican party be saved?

Recently I posted this in another thread where it was off-topic. Minor editing to remove the first and last lines and correct a redundancy.


Quote:
I come from a long line of Republicans. I proudly wore my I Like Ike button when I was in elementary school. I'd have voted for Nixon in '68 had I been eligible, and did so in '72. Which was a mistake, but I continued to vote for Republicans after.

I didn't leave the Republican Party, it left me.

For the past forty years or so, it's become:
The party of fiscal irresponsibility, repeated tax cuts for the rich generating extreme deficits. Thank you so very not-much, David Stockman.

The party of war. Ok, Nixon inherited VietNam. And lost it. Panama? Granada? Serisously? I supported going into Afghanistan, but they bungled it. Iraq was based entirely on lies. Republican lies. And it's turned out SO very well.

The party of hate. Hatred of gays, hatred of transexuals, hatred of anyone not lily white, hatred of foreigners, hatred of women who don't know their place, hatred of non-Christians. And of the wrong kinds of Christians.

Oh, but it was the Democrats who supported slavery! Yeah, that was 160 years ago. Give me a break. And all those Southern Dems who were against civil rights in the '60's are Republicans now.

Trump is NOT an aberration. He's what the Republican Party has been moving toward for the past 50 years. If you support that party, you support Trump whether you think so or not. And I pity you for it.
I forgot the party of conspiracy theories. Birtherism. Pizzagate. Omar married her brother. QAnon. Hillary's health. Etc.
ETA: And DEATH PANELS!

Oh, and they also hate poor people, while convincing some of them to vote for them.

I'm currently reading Everything Trump Touches Dies, by @TheRickWilson. He's a longtime Republican consultant who hates Trump. It's a frustrating read, because like the poster I was responding to above, he can't see the forest for the trees. He blames Trump, when in fact he's spent years CREATING the kind of party that could nominate Trump. I probably won't finish it.
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Old 27th July 2019, 12:14 PM   #2
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The true problem of the GOP is that it isn't allowed to hit rock-bottom.
Because of clever groups NOT GOP (like NRA, The Federalist Society, the Mercers, the Kochs, and nowadays the Russians, the GOP doesn't get to crash and burn as it would have on its own a while ago.
But without an unambiguous "we can't go on like this", there is no need for the party to re-invent itself.
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Old 27th July 2019, 12:17 PM   #3
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This is largely a ship of Theseus question, a question of how much the Republican Party can change before it can be / has to be rebranded.
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Old 27th July 2019, 12:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is largely a ship of Theseus question, a question of how much the Republican Party can change before it can be / has to be rebranded.
It will have to be rebranded because it is losing membership under its current course. I think the "conservative" cause has more internal contradictions than the "liberal" one - more room for schisms IMO - as the GOP stops pretending to care about deficits or other former hallmarks of their philosophy. I always felt like the Libertarian and religious right wings were somewhat incompatible.

Also the U.S. probably can't exert South Africa-type racial control with a minority white population. De facto segregation is possible but de juris, no, I don't think so. You would need a unity of white purpose and I don't think the U.S. has that. Not that Trump isn't trying.
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:06 PM   #5
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Quote:
The party of hate. Hatred of gays, hatred of transexuals, hatred of anyone not lily white, hatred of foreigners, hatred of women who don't know their place, hatred of non-Christians. And of the wrong kinds of Christians.

I'm not Republican for many reasons but this is way over the top. Have fun with the "epiphany thread" though! I just love 'em.
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:38 PM   #6
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No.

{/end thread}
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Old 27th July 2019, 01:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm not Republican for many reasons but this is way over the top.
What are you talking about?
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Old 27th July 2019, 02:03 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm not Republican for many reasons but this is way over the top. Have fun with the "epiphany thread" though! I just love 'em.
No, it's not over the top. Looking in from the outside, that's exactly what the GOP has become.

As for you not being a Republican? Well...
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Old 27th July 2019, 03:06 PM   #9
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lol, ask again on Nov. 10, 2020
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Old 27th July 2019, 03:28 PM   #10
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b0-nhQ7s1c
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Old 27th July 2019, 04:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'm currently reading Everything Trump Touches Dies, by @TheRickWilson. He's a longtime Republican consultant who hates Trump. It's a frustrating read, because like the poster I was responding to above, he can't see the forest for the trees. He blames Trump, when in fact he's spent years CREATING the kind of party that could nominate Trump. I probably won't finish it.
Much as I like Wilson (Hey, how many greying white Republican consultants can quote Ghostface?), that's a disappointing review. Not knowing his full career, I really can't say how much effect he had at the national level, aside from him helping Guiliani during 2000 (ugh) and McMullin in 2016 (a major improvement). But I do see him as a principled conservative - which to sayt I disagree with him massively on policy, but can still see him as a principled guy, rather than a near-genocidal conman like the idiot in chief, or a power-hungry backstabber like Mitch McConnell.

But I think he, and possibly Amash, are headed to the same view of the GOP that you are - and frankly that black and brown conservatives could have told all y'all back in the Nixon Era. A party that slashes taxes for rich people isn't about "fiscal responsibility", a party that applauds a police state for nonwhite people isn't for "small government". It is, instead, a party that has embraced white supremacism, creating a color-based caste system, inflicting harm on those it sees as "Untouchable" to enrich those it sees as "the Brahmin", and telling those beneath it "Hey, don't we all hate those at the bottom? We're all better than them, aren't we?"

ETA: I just realized I didn't answer the question. Well, it took a century after the thrashing they got in the Civil War before the Dems fully shed themselves of white supremacism, and a century for the GOP to get to this point. A sample size of 2 isn't really significant, so I suppose the sane conservatives could run back - but they have an army of bigots, grifters, and media shriekers (let's be honest, the dems have their own conspiracy theory wing, though they're strapped into the baby seats in the back for now). I expect the way out would be to create a principled, small-government, low taxes for all political party. But such a party would be able to draw not only from GOP folks that are holding their noses, but from conservative minorities that vote for dems because the GOP keeps screaming slurs at them.

Last edited by Mumbles; 27th July 2019 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 27th July 2019, 06:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What are you talking about?
That was very easy to understand. What are you not getting?
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Old 27th July 2019, 06:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No, it's not over the top. Looking in from the outside, that's exactly what the GOP has become.

As for you not being a Republican? Well...
As if you are even remotely knowledgeable enough to even have an opinion on the topic....

Last edited by Baylor; 27th July 2019 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 27th July 2019, 09:51 PM   #14
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As a general rule of thumb I agree with Zaganza, except it doesn't require rock bottom. Certainly there is very little motivation for lasting change when at a relative peak of power.

So while I suppose it is possible for a more realistic principled conservative party to emerge, it won't happen as long as a more ideologically simplified anti-whatever-they-do party is still capable of obtaining majorities.
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Old 27th July 2019, 10:21 PM   #15
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The Republican party is not salvageable and should, by all rights, shuffle off to die in a corner. They are the Phoenix Suns of political parties.

Fortunately they are up against the Democrats, who are the Washington Generals.
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Old 28th July 2019, 04:51 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That was very easy to understand. What are you not getting?
I don’t understand how it was over the top with respect to today’s GOP.
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Old 28th July 2019, 04:52 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The Republican party is not salvageable and should, by all rights, shuffle off to die in a corner. They are the Phoenix Suns of political parties.

Fortunately they are up against the Democrats, who are the Washington Generals.
That’s fortunate? Wouldn’t you rather work towards something better?
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Last edited by Upchurch; 28th July 2019 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 28th July 2019, 06:28 AM   #18
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Trump supporters argue, I told Will, that the president may be a little rough around the edges, that his tweets might be over the top now and then, but those things are mostly inconsequential and ephemeral. What matters, they say, is what Trump does, not what he says, and what he has done is advance conservative policies and appoint conservative judges.

Will replied that he hoped Trump supporters are right—but he’s pretty sure they are wrong when they say that what Trump is doing to our culture, our politics and our civic discourse is ephemeral.

Trump’s supporters on the right “misunderstand the importance of culture, the viscosity of culture, and I think they are not conservatives because they don't understand this,” Will said. “Nixon's surreptitious burglaries were surreptitious; that is, they were done in secret because they were unacceptable to the country and once exposed they were punished and the country moved on. What Mr. Trump has done is make acceptable, make normal, a form of behavior that would get a third grader sent to the principal's office or to bed without dessert.” Will argues that Trump’s agenda, to the degree it pleases conservatives, is what any Republican president would have done. “So the question is what does Trump bring that's distinctive?” Will said. “And it's all vulgarity, coarsening, semi-criminality.”

I pressed the point, asking about the concrete, tangible harm of Trump’s conduct.

“The answer is in the terms themselves,” Will replied. “The norms, that is, what are normal and what are normative, cease to be normal. And cease to be normative.” His point is that Nixon, for all his crimes, evaded norms; he didn’t challenge them. He didn’t dispute them. He didn’t degrade them. In fact, he was ultimately done in by them. Donald Trump promised when he ran for president that he would overturn our norms, Will has said, and that’s one promise he’s kept.

snip

The most important of all revolutions, Edmund Burke said, is a “revolution in sentiment, manners and moral opinion.” What conservatives like Will and I believe, and what we think Trump supporters either don’t understand or deny, is the destructive revolution in manners and mores that Donald Trump is ushering in, the enormous cultural and social blast radius of his presidency. Through his promiscuous lying and assault on demonstrable truths, his cruelty and crudity, his coarseness, bullying and dehumanization of his opponents, and his lawlessness and conspiracy-mongering—the whole corrupt, packaged deal—he has brought us into dark new realms.

There was a time when Republicans and conservatives more generally insisted that culture was upstream of politics and in many respects more important than politics; that leaders needed to take great care in cultivating and validating standards of decency, honor and integrity; and that a president who destroyed rather than defended cultural norms and high standards would do grave injury to America. But now Republicans are willing to sacrifice soul and culture for the sake of promised policy victories.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ted&yptr=yahoo
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Old 28th July 2019, 07:31 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
As if you are even remotely knowledgeable enough to even have an opinion on the topic....
They're being kind. At this point, the GOP isn't "conservative", they're proto-fascist. They've long since given up on democracy in favor of Jim Crow style racial oppression and violence, rigid heirarchy, and authoritarianism (with Dolt 45 as the current, incompetent leader).
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Old 28th July 2019, 12:15 PM   #20
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
They're being kind. At this point, the GOP isn't "conservative", they're proto-fascist. They've long since given up on democracy in favor of Jim Crow style racial oppression and violence, rigid heirarchy, and authoritarianism (with Dolt 45 as the current, incompetent leader).
It's a pattern with conservative parties globally that they won't leave space for a far-right party to establish itself, adopting the polices of such a party instead.
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Old 28th July 2019, 12:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
So while I suppose it is possible for a more realistic principled conservative party to emerge, it won't happen as long as a more ideologically simplified anti-whatever-they-do party is still capable of obtaining majorities.
This.
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Old 28th July 2019, 02:08 PM   #22
Baylor
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I don’t understand how it was over the top with respect to today’s GOP.
The you don't understand US politics very well.
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Old 28th July 2019, 02:44 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The you don't understand US politics very well.
Looks to me like they understand it better than you.

So there!

LOL!
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Old 28th July 2019, 06:41 PM   #24
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Dang, I forgot. Today's Republicans are the party of anti-science and anti-education. Because those things are contrary to their idiotic worldview.
On the science side, there's evolution, anathema to the fundy base; and AGW, anathema to the big-hydrocarbon donors.
Education, of course, teaches science, including evolution, and encourages kids to think for themselves.
Note that I did NOT mention anti-vax, because lots of liberal idiots as well as conservatives have bought into that nonsense.
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Old 28th July 2019, 09:35 PM   #25
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Note that I did NOT mention anti-vax, because lots of liberal idiots as well as conservatives have bought into that nonsense.
yeah, but politically, anti-vaxxers have much more support from Republicans and their fringe than from Dems.
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Old 28th July 2019, 09:36 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's a pattern with conservative parties globally that they won't leave space for a far-right party to establish itself, adopting the polices of such a party instead.
From what little I know of the world outside the US, think you may be right.

This...could get ugly, very quickly., especially when you throw on climate-change-related migration which we are already seeing.
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Old 28th July 2019, 10:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Quote:
The party of hate. Hatred of gays, hatred of transexuals, hatred of anyone not lily white, hatred of foreigners, hatred of women who don't know their place, hatred of non-Christians. And of the wrong kinds of Christians.
I'm not Republican for many reasons...
Sure you're not. I mean, just because you seem to defend Stubby McBonespurs on a regular basis, some might think you are. But I'm sure you're a 'fine person'.
Quote:
...but this is way over the top.
I'm going to echo other people here and say...how exactly is it "over the top"?

Lets see:

Hatred of gays:
The majority of republicans are opposed to state-sanctioned gay marriage. (54-40%.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...al_affiliation

Hatred of Transsexuals:
In a 2017 poll, more than half of all republicans said that Transsexual rights had "gone to far"
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...and-democrats/

Hatred of non-whites:
Well, they continue to support Trump, the man who called neo-Nazis "fine people", and told minority congress members to "go back to where they came from".

Hatred of women:
The Trump administration is changing rules to allow employers to deny contraception in health care plans.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/09/opini...mor/index.html

Hatred of non-christians:
The majority of Republicans would discount a political candidate just because they were muslim. Only 38% said they would vote for a muslim.
https://www.newsweek.com/republicans...t-poll-1424108

Now, its possible to find republicans who CLAIM to love homosexuals/Transexuals/women/non-christians, but they are still supporting a party who's policies harms those same groups.
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Old 28th July 2019, 11:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Sure you're not. I mean, just because you seem to defend Stubby McBonespurs on a regular basis, some might think you are.
"Seem to" but doesn't.

Anyone who is not a member of the Religion of Skeptic Sanctimony is a "trump supporter." Whether that person supports Donald Trump has no bearing on this, according to skeptics.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:16 AM   #29
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"Seem to" but doesn't.

Anyone who is not a member of the Religion of Skeptic Sanctimony is a "trump supporter." Whether that person supports Donald Trump has no bearing on this, according to skeptics.
it depends entirely on what form this "not-support" takes.
In a two-party system, attack on one party is automatically support for the other.

If you are against Trump, most of your criticism can't be against Democrats.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:18 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In a two-party system, attack on one party is automatically support for the
Nice logic there, skeptic.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:22 AM   #31
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Nice logic there, skeptic.
it is, isn't it?

when you have a scale. it doesn't make a difference if you add weight on one side or take some away on the other for it to tip.

I assume you would (like me) prefer a Ranked Choice voting system to change that.
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it is, isn't it?

when you have a scale. it doesn't make a difference if you add weight on one side or take some away on the other for it to tip.

I assume you would (like me) prefer a Ranked Choice voting system to change that.
Words have meaning. To the neurotypical, being a "Trump supporter" means you support Donald Trump. Pretty easy huh?

Skeptics are unable to grasp this simple logic. Their 76 year old brains "work" like this.

Being a "Trump supporter" is bad.
I don't like migdm86.
Therefore, mgdm86 is a "Trump supporter."
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
"Seem to" but doesn't.

Anyone who is not a member of the Religion of Skeptic Sanctimony is a "trump supporter." Whether that person supports Donald Trump has no bearing on this, according to skeptics.
Oh, but if you attend a meeting that incidentally happens to be mostly white, Baylor has already decided you're Racist Trash! Whether or not you are in fact "racist trash" has no bearing on this, according to Baylor.

LMFAO!!!

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Who's "racist trash?" People who prefer to be around their own race? Like a virtually all white skeptic forum.

Ever been to a TAM? It's nearly all white. Talk about "racist trash."
Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
They are racist trash because even in their free time they choose to be around other white people. 90's Internet acronyms or quotation marks don't disprove that.
A guaranteed laugh riot every post!
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Old 29th July 2019, 12:33 AM   #34
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Words have meaning. To the neurotypical, being a "Trump supporter" means you support Donald Trump. Pretty easy huh?

Skeptics are unable to grasp this simple logic. Their 76 year old brains "work" like this.

Being a "Trump supporter" is bad.
I don't like migdm86.
Therefore, mgdm86 is a "Trump supporter."

He doesn't need crowds at his rallies, since Fox will make sure to show only the densest part of the crowd. He doesn't need campaign donations, since he got big donors. And he doesn't need re-tweets because he has twitterbots.


the only support Trump needs is for you not to vote for Democrats.
If you that, you support Trump, if only indirectly. Which, as mentioned, is the same as voting for Trump in a two-party system.
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Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 29th July 2019 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:13 AM   #35
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A more apt question may be “can the United States be saved from the Republican Party?”

The 2 party system is too deeply embedded in the political structure of the US for either party to die. This also shelters it from any need to reform or change. If the Republican Party isn’t going away or changing any time soon, how does the US navigate through to the other side of the chaos they are creating and is there a way through where the country retains its previous character and form?
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Old 29th July 2019, 06:25 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
A more apt question may be “can the United States be saved from the Republican Party?”

The 2 party system is too deeply embedded in the political structure of the US for either party to die. This also shelters it from any need to reform or change. If the Republican Party isn’t going away or changing any time soon, how does the US navigate through to the other side of the chaos they are creating and is there a way through where the country retains its previous character and form?
Not necessarily strictly true, for it to die it would be replaced with a new party like happened to the Wig, though I don't think that could happen at the moment.

But it is winning it doesn't need saving, and there is enough propaganda arms of it in the form of Fox and Sinclair broadcasting that they are not truly in danger.
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Old 30th July 2019, 12:59 PM   #37
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For fairness' sake:

Hate is, or at least used to be, a very strong word. Perhaps that's why it's been overused so much, but it used to denote a very strong emotion towards someone who had really wronged you or someone you loved. That this word has been so thinned out is a pet peeve of mine.

Here in Norway, it's the word "bullying". Bullying used to be the continuous bothering of another person, with acts such as saying mean things, pushing them in hallways, spreading rumours, yelling rude things to them across the common room, etc. Probably because it was such a powerful word, and no one wants to be known as a bully, people started abusing it on those who disagreed with them, and now you get called a bully if you so much as write an editorial telling someone how they happen to be wrong about something. It's incredibly irritating.

I know words change meaning over time, but it annoys me when they do so for backhanded emotional or political reasons.
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Old 9th August 2019, 12:09 AM   #38
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Sharp rise in share of conservative Republicans who have positive view of expanding presidential powers (PEW Research Center, Aug. 6, 2019)

Trump Supporters Abandon Democracy (The Damage Report, Aug. 8, 2019)
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:35 AM   #39
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Are the Democrats really any better off? Like it or not, a whole lot of why we have a Trump Presidency was due to Democratic pro Hillary complacency. It was assumed she would win so many stayed home and didnt vote. Now they are some of the loudest anti Trump whiners.

Since this they have not taken personal responsibility for the fact imo, Bernie was the better Candidate at the time, and they blocked him in favor of another Clinton, which really wasn't any better a choice.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:49 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Are the Democrats really any better off? Like it or not, a whole lot of why we have a Trump Presidency was due to Democratic pro Hillary complacency. It was assumed she would win so many stayed home and didnt vote. Now they are some of the loudest anti Trump whiners.

Since this they have not taken personal responsibility for the fact imo, Bernie was the better Candidate at the time, and they blocked him in favor of another Clinton, which really wasn't any better a choice.
Let's suppose you are completely correct in your assessment of the Democrats.

On one side, we have a party that became complacent, leading to disastrous results for which they have taken no responsibility.

On the other side, we have a party which has abandoned the position that character matters, which supports a leader who lies with abandon, who disparages allies while admiring despots, who receives the praise of evangelicals while working to dismantle the asylum system and separate children from their parents and so on and so on.

Perhaps, as you say, the Democrats deserve criticism and need to change. But the two situations are not all that comparable in kind or degree.
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