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Old 31st July 2019, 10:23 AM   #121
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Calling liberals "sore losers" on the other hand, is certainly giving them an appellation well-earned.
Liberals are "sore losers" in the same way that Jews in 1930s/40s Germany were "sore losers".

Namely, they see some political faction rise to power 1) that did not do so based on majority support, and 2) that seeks to cause harm, not only to those that are being targeted, but to society as a whole.

This is not just a case where the Republicans won a fair election battle and the Liberals are upset that they couldn't get a majority of people to like them.

Trump got into power in part because of the support of a foreign government (and still lost the popular vote). Yet that same political party is engaging in activities that will increase the tax burden on many/most middle and lower class people, take away heath care from millions, harmed various minorities, and turned the U.S. into a laughing stock.

The liberals certainly have valid reasons to be upset.

(And I say this not as some sort of left-winger myself. I'm Canadian, and regularly vote for our right-of-center Conservative party.)
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Old 31st July 2019, 10:32 AM   #122
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Those who continue to support Trump remind me of the dead people in The Sixth Sense.

They don't know they're stupid (or at least, ignorant).
They see only what they want to see.
The color red signals a scene that they see as something other than it truly is.
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Old 31st July 2019, 10:38 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Conservative media has been calling non-conservatives names for literally decades. The GOP has picked up that momentum and done the same in the last decade or so. As I've mentioned before, it doesn't appear to have hurt the GOP at all.

I fail to see the evidence that this has not been a winning strategy for them.
On the other hand, progressives calling conservatives fascists and racists and hitler and so on seems to have finally hit the point of diminishing returns sometime around 2015. Maybe the "deplorables" thing was the final straw? I don't know.

FMW's proposal that the solution is to upgrade from "deplorable", etc. to "evil" is certainly... a proposal.
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Old 31st July 2019, 10:43 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Liberals are "sore losers" in the same way that Jews in 1930s/40s Germany were "sore losers".
I wonder what would happen if there was a thread about Trump in the politics section which wasn't Godwin'ed. I suspect it might rip a hole in the fabric of reality. We can't take that chance.
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Old 31st July 2019, 10:44 AM   #125
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Too much hatred and acrimony in this thread. We need something to calm everyone down and let the peace flow.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5664285797.jpg


I served during the Falkland Islands times (in junior high marching band), so I know we can do this.
Needs more cowbell.
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Old 31st July 2019, 10:52 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Conservative media has been calling non-conservatives names for literally decades. The GOP has picked up that momentum and done the same in the last decade or so. As I've mentioned before, it doesn't appear to have hurt the GOP at all.

I fail to see the evidence that this has not been a winning strategy for them.
It's only bad when a liberal/Democrat/porg does it.
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Old 31st July 2019, 10:55 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wonder what would happen if there was a thread about Trump in the politics section which wasn't Godwin'ed. I suspect it might rip a hole in the fabric of reality. We can't take that chance.
Godwin's Exception may actually be in play...
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:04 AM   #128
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Godwin's Exception may actually be in play...
Everyone thinks so when they do it.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:10 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wonder what would happen if there was a thread about Trump in the politics section which wasn't Godwin'ed. I suspect it might rip a hole in the fabric of reality. We can't take that chance.
you know someone who Godwin'ed Trump?
The guy who the expression is named after.

If there are legitimate comparisons to be made, it is not a Godwin.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:11 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Everyone thinks so when they do it.
The corollary is that no one thinks so when it is against them.


It's a strange ol' world.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:11 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Godwin's Exception may actually be in play...
Didn't you get the memo?

Old and busted: "nazis"

New hotness: "evil"
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:12 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Didn't you get the memo?

Old and busted: "nazis"

New hotness: "evil"
"Godwin'ed"
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:12 AM   #133
theprestige
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you know someone who Godwin'ed Trump?
The guy who the expression is named after.
Appeal to authority much? He's Godwin, not God.

Quote:
If there are legitimate comparisons to be made, it is not a Godwin.
If.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:15 AM   #134
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you know someone who Godwin'ed Trump?
The guy who the expression is named after.
Naming a logical fallacy doesn't make one immune to it.

Quote:
If there are legitimate comparisons to be made, it is not a Godwin.
That wasn't one.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:18 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That wasn't one.
Someone ought to inform the modern Nazis in the country. They'll be disappointed (which is a good thing), but it's funny how they haven't noticed up until now.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:19 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you know someone who Godwin'ed Trump?
The guy who the expression is named after.

If there are legitimate comparisons to be made, it is not a Godwin.
Strictly speaking it was the observation that over time the odds of any internet argument involving nazis approaches 1. It never says that such comparisons are always wrong.
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:30 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Conservative media has been calling non-conservatives names for literally decades. The GOP has picked up that momentum and done the same in the last decade or so. As I've mentioned before, it doesn't appear to have hurt the GOP at all.

I fail to see the evidence that this has not been a winning strategy for them.
It's an admission that even the reactionaries and others on the right expect the left to be more moral than they are. It is the only way their argument makes sense.

But they aren't wrong. Sometimes there is value in calling evil evil, and there is value in knowing when to use softer words.

About the time they are justifying concentration camps deplorable, illegal, conditions by defending racist assumptions about American cities is probably the right time to at least be calling the tactics and actions evil.

I have a hard time justifying calling most people evil, but acts are easier. 'You are evil', even if the person believes you're right (not likely to say the least) isn't going to change their behavior because they see it as part of their identity. 'What you are doing/supporting is evil' has a better chance, because they can stop. 'Harmful' probably works better, but again, isn't as accurate right now with some of it. Maybe some modifiers...
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:59 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wonder what would happen if there was a thread about Trump in the politics section which wasn't Godwin'ed. I suspect it might rip a hole in the fabric of reality. We can't take that chance.
While Trumpism is more like fascism than US conservatism, Kaiser Wilhelm is a better parallel than Hitler:
Originally Posted by Historian
superficial, hasty, restless, unable to relax, without any deeper level of seriousness, without any desire for hard work or drive to see things through to the end, without any sense of sobriety, for balance and boundaries, or even for reality and real problems, uncontrollable and scarcely capable of learning from experience, desperate for applause and success ... unsure and arrogant, with an immeasurably exaggerated self-confidence and desire to show off
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:13 PM   #139
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Someone ought to inform the modern Nazis in the country. They'll be disappointed (which is a good thing), but it's funny how they haven't noticed up until now.
https://babylonbee.com/news/infograp...i-from-antifa/
Third row.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:28 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Well, at least we can agree that Trump appeals to modern Nazis.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:31 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Someone ought to inform the modern Nazis in the country. They'll be disappointed (which is a good thing), but it's funny how they haven't noticed up until now.
Taking your cue from Nazis may not be the look you were going for.

Speaking of telling things to modern Nazis: Have you ever seen one of them make a legitimate comparison along these lines? If so who was it, and what was the comparison?

Have you ever made such a comparison yourself, that you considered legitimate, without appealing to the authority of "modern Nazis" to validate your work? If so, what was the comparison, and why haven't you already presented it here?
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:47 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Well, at least we can agree that Trump appeals to modern Nazis.
Sure. Just like Obama appealed to modern communists. It doesn't make Trump any more of a Nazi than Obama was a communist, though.
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Old 31st July 2019, 12:50 PM   #143
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I can't think of any communists who actually liked Obama.

We know that many neo-Nazi groups admire Trump.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:12 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Liberals are "sore losers" in the same way that Jews in 1930s/40s Germany were "sore losers".

Namely, they see some political faction rise to power 1) that did not do so based on majority support, and 2) that seeks to cause harm, not only to those that are being targeted, but to society as a whole.

This is not just a case where the Republicans won a fair election battle and the Liberals are upset that they couldn't get a majority of people to like them.

Trump got into power in part because of the support of a foreign government (and still lost the popular vote). Yet that same political party is engaging in activities that will increase the tax burden on many/most middle and lower class people, take away heath care from millions, harmed various minorities, and turned the U.S. into a laughing stock.

The liberals certainly have valid reasons to be upset.

(And I say this not as some sort of left-winger myself. I'm Canadian, and regularly vote for our right-of-center Conservative party.)
True, but what is sad is that the Democrats seem to be on the verge of handing Trump relection on a Silver Platter if last night's debate is an indicator.
Ryan was right, a "Medicare for all" platform that will take away people's current coverage is political suicide.
I wonder if both parties have not been infected with stupidity. Sadly, the Dems seem to be on verge of being taken over by their won version of the Tea Party....hard line ideologue for whom compromise is a dirty word and who hath a scathing hatred for moderates and centrists.
Danger is not so much moderates will vote for Trump but they will just stay home .
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:14 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but what is sad is that the Democrats seem to be on the verge of handing Trump relection on a Silver Platter if last night's debate is an indicator.
Ryan was right, a "Medicare for all" platform that will take away people's current coverage is political suicide.
And it spits on the dead that republican governors sacrificed to fight off Obamacare. Did those 15,000 Americans die for nothing!

https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...ion-obamacare/

They are the brave human sacrifices of our country to fight off this vicious socialism and keep the true gods of capitalism sated.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:32 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure. Just like Obama appealed to modern communists. It doesn't make Trump any more of a Nazi than Obama was a communist, though.
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I can't think of any communists who actually liked Obama.
Yeah, me either. I'd ask Zig where he got that notion, but... you know.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
We know that many neo-Nazi groups admire Trump.
Also, white nationalists and Russians.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:39 PM   #147
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If Obama had retweeted communists as many times as Trump has retweeted white supremacists, I doubt Zig and his fellow travelers would be this unconcerned.
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Old 31st July 2019, 01:47 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Taking your cue from Nazis may not be the look you were going for.
....what cue am I taking from Nazis?

Do you mean where I reference Nazis comparing Trump to Nazis albeit in, to them, a favorable way?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Speaking of telling things to modern Nazis: Have you ever seen one of them make a legitimate comparison along these lines? If so who was it, and what was the comparison?
I mean, have you already forgotten about the very fine people at Charlottesville?

Also, Alt-Right Gathering Exults in Trump Election With Nazi-Era Salute
Quote:
But now his tone changed as he began to tell the audience of more than 200 people, mostly young men, what they had been waiting to hear. He railed against Jews and, with a smile, quoted Nazi propaganda in the original German. America, he said, belonged to white people, whom he called the “children of the sun,” a race of conquerors and creators who had been marginalized but now, in the era of President-elect Donald J. Trump, were “awakening to their own identity.”

As he finished, several audience members had their arms outstretched in a Nazi salute. Mr. Spencer called out: “Hail Trump! Hail our people!” and then, “Hail victory!” — the English translation of the Nazi exhortation “Sieg Heil!” The room shouted back.
eta:

Neo-Nazis celebrate Trump ‘s---hole’ comment: He’s ‘on the same page as us’
Quote:
The Daily Stormer, the largest neo-Nazi website online, welcomed Trump's reported remark, saying it was evidence he was "more or less on the same page with us."

“This is encouraging and refreshing, as it indicates Trump is more or less on the same page as us with regards to race and immigration,” the site said.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:36 PM   #149
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I can't think of any communists who actually liked Obama.
Many ended up disappointed, but early on the CPUSA publicly endorsed him. For example:

http://web.archive.org/web/200710311...view/858/1/39/
"Our Party actively supported Obama during the [2004 Senate] primary election."
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:47 PM   #150
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
....what cue am I taking from Nazis?

Do you mean where I reference Nazis comparing Trump to Nazis albeit in, to them, a favorable way?



I mean, have you already forgotten about the very fine people at Charlottesville?

Also, Alt-Right Gathering Exults in Trump Election With Nazi-Era Salute
eta:

Neo-Nazis celebrate Trump ‘s---hole’ comment: He’s ‘on the same page as us’
The subject was legitimate comparisons to Nazis.

You cited Nazis as having made such comparisons. Again, I'm not sure taking your cue from Nazis is the look you were going for.

I'm also still waiting for an example of an actual legitimate comparison, from any source. Nazi celebrations with vague references to possible points of agreement don't really suffice.

The ideal would be a comparison you have made yourself, between some uniquely or quintessentially Nazi characteristic, and some uniquely or quintessentially Trumpian characteristic. Backed up by evidence your own reasoning, of course.

I'd settle for a comparison made by modern Nazis, as long as your own reasoning for why it's legitimate is included along with it.

And to be clear: I understand the question to be one of legitimate comparison between Trump and the leaders or policies of the original National Socialist party that emerged in Germany in the 1930s and rose to power there under Adolf Hitler.

We can look at comparisons to modern Nazis (or "nazis") as well, but I'd like to get some closure on this point first. If you have no legitimate comparisons between Trump and the NSDAP to offer, just say so and we'll move on.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:52 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The subject was legitimate comparisons to Nazis.

You cited Nazis as having made such comparisons. Again, I'm not sure taking your cue from Nazis is the look you were going for.
You don't think Nazis saying "This guy is just like us" isn't a legitimate comparison to Nazis?

Oh, goalposts, we hardly knew ye.
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Old 31st July 2019, 02:56 PM   #152
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I mean, the whole thing ends up looking pretty circular:

"We know Trump is a Nazi because of all the Nazi stuff he does!"

"None of the stuff he's doing seems particularly Nazi."

"Yeah, but we know it's Nazi stuff because of how Nazi he is!"

"How do you know how Nazi he is?"

"Because of all the Nazi stuff he does!"

"That sounds pretty circular. What else do you have?"

"Nazis like him!"

"Nazis in America have been out in the cold for pretty much ever. You think maybe this is an any-port-in-a-storm type situation for them?"

"No! Trump is obviously a Nazi! Just look at all the Nazi stuff he does!"

"Uh..."

"Concentration camps!"

"They're not really concentration camps."

"Shut up, Nazi! Just because they're not Nazi death camps that doesn't mean they're not concentration camps."

"So... Not really a Nazi thing then? Wait - did you just call me a Nazi?"

"You're eeevil!"
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Old 31st July 2019, 03:06 PM   #153
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You don't think Nazis saying "This guy is just like us" isn't a legitimate comparison to Nazis?
Not really no. I'd want to see the actual characteristics being compared, and the reasoning for why the comparison is legitimate.

Some asshat unilaterally declaring "this guy is just like us" without explaining how or why he thinks it's true, doesn't impress me. It shouldn't impress you, either.

Quote:
Oh, goalposts, we hardly knew ye.
The sad refrain of every field goal kicker who didn't make the cut.

You seem confident that there's legitimate comparisons between Trump and Nazis, but you can't come up with any.
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Old 31st July 2019, 03:41 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Liberals are "sore losers" in the same way that Jews in 1930s/40s Germany were "sore losers".
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:52 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not really no. I'd want to see the actual characteristics being compared, and the reasoning for why the comparison is legitimate.

Some asshat unilaterally declaring "this guy is just like us" without explaining how or why he thinks it's true, doesn't impress me. It shouldn't impress you, either.


The sad refrain of every field goal kicker who didn't make the cut.

You seem confident that there's legitimate comparisons between Trump and Nazis, but you can't come up with any.
Oh, I could come up with legitimate comparisons. I could draw the comparison of a populist leader targeting an ethnic minority as the cause of the nation's problems, for whom only the populist leader can solve the problem. I could draw the comparison of how the populist leader dehumanizes said ethnic minority to the point where separating children from parents is acceptable. I could draw the comparison of putting said ethnic minority into concentration camps (or do you prefer the more PC "internment camps"). I could draw the comparison of the populist leader demanding loyalty, not to the country, but to the populist leader himself. I could draw the comparison to how the populist leader handles negative stories by portraying the press as enemies of the people.

I could do any of that, but you have set yourself up as arbiter of legitimacy. You merely have to move the goalposts by saying that the comparison isn't legitimate because Hitler used the phrase "lying press" rather than "fake news". Worse, he actually used the phrase "LŁgenpresse", which is totally different, amirite?

So, yes, I can come up with legitimate historical and contemporary comparisons, but it will never pass the bar of your confirmation biases.
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Old 31st July 2019, 04:57 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Calling liberals "sore losers" on the other hand, is certainly giving them an appellation well-earned.
Ouch! "Hillary Clinton is a sore loser!" Boy that'll sting. Now that we know that "Ronald Reagan was a racist" (not that some of us weren't aware of it), which do you think has a more telling effect?

Boy, you sure got a good one in there, Brainster. That'll cover for about eleven seconds of Trump-Miller racial bigotry and two seconds of his next rally for the flaming ********* who back his program.
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Old 31st July 2019, 05:37 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure. Just like Obama appealed to modern communists. It doesn't make Trump any more of a Nazi than Obama was a communist, though.
Which modern communists were those? This is just nonsense right wing rhetoric. I actually know communists (of various stripes). Not a one of them said, "Oh, we like those corporatist policies of this Obama, fellow. Pretty soon we'll be collectivizing the lint farms in Georgia!"
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It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
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Old 31st July 2019, 05:41 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Strictly speaking, the MA prohibits making a thread like this about another member here.
That's the "editorial you", the royal you if you will, the second person plural. But you knew that. (That's the first person singular variation.)

This is about conservatives who have their heads so far up their asses that they cannot and will not identify the bigoted scum in the Republican Party and will continue to make excuses not just for the misanthropic administration but for the bigoted baggage that clutters up your conservative hallway.
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Old 31st July 2019, 05:56 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
<snip>
tl;dr - "you're eeevil!"
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Old 31st July 2019, 06:16 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Many ended up disappointed, but early on the CPUSA publicly endorsed him. For example:

http://web.archive.org/web/200710311...view/858/1/39/
"Our Party actively supported Obama during the [2004 Senate] primary election."
Thatís a long speech with only brief mention of Obama. It appears that the they supported him, not because his policies were particularly communist, but because of his support of trade unions and his ability to pull together a large diverse voting block.

Whereas the Nazis support Trump because his racist policies sync with their own.

So, thanks for that.
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