ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Trump supporters

Reply
Old 2nd August 2019, 09:59 AM   #281
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,104
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You're disingenuous because reimbursement =! sale and you ******* know it. A sale implies there is a profit. Like I said, disingenuous.

ETA: If you buy me gas, and I reimburse you for it. You didn't sell me gas. The original item was donated, so there was no sale there either. Get over it. You're wrong.
Indeed. On occasion a colleague has left their wallet at home. I've paid for their lunch and then the next day they've given me the money back. I hadn't sold anything by any reasonable definition.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:01 AM   #282
Frank Newgent
Philosopher
 
Frank Newgent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,556
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale.
Zig said I could buy a baby pat but since I don't know what that is I'll take the F-15.
__________________
Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski
Frank Newgent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:04 AM   #283
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That actually agrees with what I said. PP receives money in exchange for baby parts. That's a sale. Your source simply claims that the money is such that PP isn't making a profit, but I never claimed they made a profit. And Minoosh never said that his grandma believed they made a profit.
They do not receive money in exchange for “baby parts”. They receive money in exchange for services rendered. That’s two different things.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:07 AM   #284
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Don't try to lecture me about disingenuousness. I'm not the one claiming that money in exchange for an item isn't a sale.
Planned Parenthood isn’t receiving money in exchange for an item. They are receiving money in exchange for a service.

Not only are you being disingenuous, you are flat-out lying.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:08 AM   #285
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You're disingenuous because reimbursement =! sale and you ******* know it. A sale implies there is a profit. Like I said, disingenuous.
Nonsense. When grocery stores sell products at a loss (which they frequently do, they're called "loss leaders"), that's still a sale. That's not a reimbursement. If you incorrectly conclude that a sale requires a profit, that's your mistake, not mine.

Quote:
ETA: If you buy me gas, and I reimburse you for it. You didn't sell me gas. The original item was donated, so there was no sale there either. Get over it. You're wrong.
So that money given to PP... it just disappears into the void? No. Obviously. Where does it go? PP keeps it. Obviously.

Get over it. You're wrong.

The kicker here is that it shouldn't even bother you that PP is selling baby parts. Yet it clearly does. Why?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:10 AM   #286
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Planned Parenthood isn’t receiving money in exchange for an item. They are receiving money in exchange for a service.

Not only are you being disingenuous, you are flat-out lying.
Wow. Now that is disingenuous.

When I buy milk at the grocery store, I'm really buying the service of a farmer harvesting the cow's free donation.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:11 AM   #287
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,899
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Once again, I didn't condemn anything. Seriously, read through this whole exchange. Not once in this thread will you find me having condemned a single thing that PP has done. All I have done is point out what they did, I attached no moral judgment to it. You have only imagined that.
Not good enough - you clearly tried to put PP's practice in a bad light by ridiculing others and comparing them to a home-shopping channel:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Bwahahahaha!

Pay money to PP, and get baby parts. But that doesn't count as PP selling baby parts. Oh no, we have to maintain the fiction that it's just "shipping and handling fees". Kind of like those TV ads: buy now, and get a second gadget for free! Just pay $19.95 for shipping and handling.

I get why the fiction is maintained for legal purposes, but who exactly do you think you're fooling?


PP is doing nothing to profit, it is doing what many clinics do with bodies donated to science, and you are clearly trying to back-paddle after being called out for your propaganda.
__________________
Careful! That tree's bark is worse than its bite.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:11 AM   #288
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nonsense. When grocery stores sell products at a loss (which they frequently do, they're called "loss leaders"), that's still a sale. That's not a reimbursement. If you incorrectly conclude that a sale requires a profit, that's your mistake, not mine.



So that money given to PP... it just disappears into the void? No. Obviously. Where does it go? PP keeps it. Obviously.

Get over it. You're wrong.

The kicker here is that it shouldn't even bother you that PP is selling baby parts. Yet it clearly does. Why?
What they are doing doesn't bother me, the way you're framing it bothers me. You have repeatedly been asked for evidence for claims you've made and you have gone out of your way to avoid it.

Call me wrong all you want, but you know your argument is based on nonsense. Everyone can see right through it. The question is why do you insist on sticking with it?
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:16 AM   #289
WilliamSeger
Illuminator
 
WilliamSeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,713
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Illegal immigrants can't get SNAP, SSI, or ACA subsidies, so I suppose the *all* included in all kinds of government benefits negates the argument.
Yeah, I couldn't think of any, either, but heck no, that doesn't negate a good argument.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I never claimed they were all the facts (an objection you don't seem to have with Minoosh's original post, strangely enough). But they are still facts.

Minoosh listed several facts which he apparently thought were false in order to make his point. They were all true. Pointing that out isn't pedantry. If you or Minoosh think you can still make that point without relying on those facts, feel free to do so, but as framed that argument fails, badly.
His point was that she was misled, and you prove it while still denying it.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 2nd August 2019 at 10:28 AM. Reason: sp
WilliamSeger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:22 AM   #290
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,104
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post

Quote:
and that Christians are an especially persecuted group.
In many places in the developing world, they are.
And the obvious implication (for someone who is neither stupid nor disingenuous) was concerning Christians in the US.

Christians in the DPRK or Afghanistan under the Taliban doesn't really count.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:46 AM   #291
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Not good enough - you clearly tried to put PP's practice in a bad light by ridiculing others and comparing them to a home-shopping channel:
I'm making fun of the legal fiction that it's not a sale. That fiction was necessitated by the law which explicitly created the fiction, I don't blame PP for that, but I do blame people here who think the fiction is real.

ETA: and actually, the law doesn't even require PP to say it's not a sale. And I don't recall PP ever specifically saying it wasn't a sale, they just don't use that language themselves.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Ziggurat; 2nd August 2019 at 10:53 AM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:48 AM   #292
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
His point was that she was misled, and you prove it while still denying it.
If the things she believes are true (and as stated, they are), then how was she misled? It may be true that she holds some related beliefs that are false, but Minoosh hasn't told us that. If she does, then he's free to update the record if he so chooses. As of now, though, it seems he's been misled, not his grandma.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:50 AM   #293
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What they are doing doesn't bother me, the way you're framing it bothers me. You have repeatedly been asked for evidence for claims you've made and you have gone out of your way to avoid it.
Other people have actually provided the evidence for me, I don't need to in this case.

Quote:
Call me wrong all you want, but you know your argument is based on nonsense. Everyone can see right through it. The question is why do you insist on sticking with it?
Yeah, sure. PP gives baby parts to certain companies, and gets money back in exchange. And that's not a sale. Sure. Everyone can see right through it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:51 AM   #294
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And the obvious implication (for someone who is neither stupid nor disingenuous) was concerning Christians in the US.

Christians in the DPRK or Afghanistan under the Taliban doesn't really count.
Why don't they count? That seems, dare I say, kinda racist.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:15 AM   #295
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,538
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is it any use trying to correct you on the facts?
Go into detail and support your claims and perhaps you'll educate me.

ETA: Having read the posts after my last one - I see once again you either can't or won't elaborate on your claims.

You have failed to persuade me.

ETA2: It's my aunt, not my grandmother. As clearly stated. And BTW I'm a she.

Last edited by Minoosh; 2nd August 2019 at 11:25 AM.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:22 AM   #296
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 36,793
This thread went from evil to weird.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:22 AM   #297
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,085
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wow. Now that is disingenuous.

When I buy milk at the grocery store, I'm really buying the service of a farmer harvesting the cow's free donation.
No, that's incorrect. In that scenario, you're buying a product.

However, if you have that milk delivered to you, any shipping and handling charges you pay are not for the milk, but rather for the service of delivering the milk.

This is not a difficult concept.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:23 AM   #298
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Go into detail and support your claims and perhaps you'll educate me.
I've covered most of that ground already in responses to others. Is there a particular one you'd like more information about?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:26 AM   #299
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No, that's incorrect. In that scenario, you're buying a product.

However, if you have that milk delivered to you, any shipping and handling charges you pay are not for the milk, but rather for the service of delivering the milk.

This is not a difficult concept.
And the fungibility of money isn't a difficult concept either. Nor is the fact that for many products, labor costs (ie, service, or if you like handling) can dominate.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:27 AM   #300
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,607
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That actually agrees with what I said. PP receives money in exchange for baby parts. That's a sale. Your source simply claims that the money is such that PP isn't making a profit, but I never claimed they made a profit.
That is explicitly what it prohibits:
Quote:
This law prohibits the receipt of any “valuable consideration” for fetal tissue while expressly permitting “reasonable payments” for costs, including “transportation, implantation, processing, preservation, quality control, or storage of human fetal tissue.”[8]
It is illegal to pay for fetal tissue. The payment is not for the fetal tissue but for the storage and transporting of the fetal tissue. That's like saying that you're buying your amazon packages from FedEx because you paid them to bring your package to the door. The actual purchase happens with the money you pay to Amazon. There is no actual purchase of fetal tissue.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:27 AM   #301
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
ETA2: It's my aunt, not my grandmother. As clearly stated. And BTW I'm a she.
Duly noted, though it's not obvious from either your name or your avatar pic.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:41 AM   #302
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It is illegal to pay for fetal tissue.
No it isn't. It's illegal to give “valuable consideration”, which basically means PP can't profit from fetal tissue sales (by cash or by other exchange), but it absolutely doesn't mean you can't pay for fetal tissue. You explicitly can. Your own quote even says so.

Quote:
The payment is not for the fetal tissue but for the storage and transporting of the fetal tissue.
No. That's what PP can use to determine how much to charge while not making a profit. But you're absolutely paying for a product.

And what exactly do you think goes into the cost of a product? Raw materials, labor, capital, transportation, and profit margin. PP has no raw materials costs, they aren't allowed to make a profit, but labor and capital expenses can all be charged under processing, preservation, quality control and storage, and transportation can be charged as well. These aren't costs which are independent of the cost of a product. They are part of the cost of the product. I don't buy milk and pay the farmer for collecting it and the grocer for storing it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:47 AM   #303
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And what exactly do you think goes into the cost of a product? Raw materials, labor, capital, transportation, and profit margin. PP has no raw materials costs, they aren't allowed to make a profit, but labor and capital expenses can all be charged under processing, preservation, quality control and storage, and transportation can be charged as well. These aren't costs which are independent of the cost of a product. They are part of the cost of the product. I don't buy milk and pay the farmer for collecting it and the grocer for storing it.
If someone donated milk to you, and the person that delivered it showed up and told you they had a $2 delivery charge. You still wouldn't be paying them for the ******* milk. You're paying for the delivery.

Like I said, everyone sees through it but here you are digging that hole deeper.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:50 AM   #304
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If someone donated milk to you, and the person that delivered it showed up and told you they had a $2 delivery charge. You still wouldn't be paying them for the ******* milk. You're paying for the delivery.
That's separable because, get this, I could go pick up that milk myself and save the delivery charge.

Can the companies which get fetal tissue from PP go pick up the tissue themselves and avoid any charges? No, they cannot.

Plus, of course, PP is charging for more than shipping.

ETA: plus, of course, the donations aren't to the end user. Patients are donating the tissue to PP.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Ziggurat; 2nd August 2019 at 11:54 AM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 11:54 AM   #305
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's separable because, get this, I could go pick up that milk myself and save the delivery charge.

Can the companies which get fetal tissue from PP go pick up the tissue themselves and avoid any charges? No, they cannot.

Plus, of course, PP is charging for more than shipping.
Now provide evidence. You know how this works.

You've made two claims here. Back them up, buttercup.

ETA: Fine, change my statement to "if the farmer donates his milk to the grocery store, which donates it to you". It's ******* quibbling over nonsense anyway.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:10 PM   #306
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,920
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's separable because, get this, I could go pick up that milk myself and save the delivery charge.

Can the companies which get fetal tissue from PP go pick up the tissue themselves and avoid any charges? No, they cannot.

Plus, of course, PP is charging for more than shipping.

ETA: plus, of course, the donations aren't to the end user. Patients are donating the tissue to PP.
How are you certain that the tissue in question cannot be picked up by the end-user, thusly avoiding a charge for transporting it?

Further, if it were true that the end-user of the tissue could avoid delivery charges by picking it up, and avoid other charges (like storage- by picking it up before storage became necessary) would you withdraw any claims that the tissue is being "sold"?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:14 PM   #307
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Now provide evidence. You know how this works.

You've made two claims here. Back them up, buttercup.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/fi...Leadership.pdf

Page 5 discusses costs. They don't go into detail, but they state costs are for "storage, processing, transportation,etc."

As for the idea that companies could come in and take the tissue themselves... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:16 PM   #308
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/fi...Leadership.pdf

Page 5 discusses costs. They don't go into detail, but they state costs are for "storage, processing, transportation,etc."

As for the idea that companies could come in and take the tissue themselves... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
If a company has the means to pick up the tissue, then I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to. Are you sure they can't?

As far as the rest, that doesn't change the claims that they aren't selling tissue. If my car gets impounded and they charge me a storage fee, they aren't selling me anything. They're charging me for a service they provided me, even if I didn't want it.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:20 PM   #309
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How are you certain that the tissue in question cannot be picked up by the end-user, thusly avoiding a charge for transporting it?
Transportation costs would only be part of it.

Quote:
Further, if it were true that the end-user of the tissue could avoid delivery charges by picking it up, and avoid other charges (like storage- by picking it up before storage became necessary) would you withdraw any claims that the tissue is being "sold"?
Storage is immediately necessary. It's never not necessary, because human tissue is a biohazard. But probably the biggest cost is processing. And processing something is part of the cost of a product. It isn't a separate cost. It doesn't work that way.

Whatever PP might do in the future, what they have already done was a sale.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:21 PM   #310
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,538
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've covered most of that ground already in responses to others. Is there a particular one you'd like more information about?
And your responses failed to persuade me.

More on my aunt: She thinks that living, viable babies are being ripped apart by Planned Parenthood for no motive other than profit. She thinks Christians are killed for their beliefs more often than people of other faiths. I haven't quizzed her about the benefits illegal immigrants get, and would like to hear what you have to say. With my aunt, not so much; I'd rather find common ground - like, for example, agreeing that people shouldn't be persecuted on the basis of religion - because I believe some of that has to happen for the country to move forward.

I don't consider a handling fee for a tissue sample a sale. You keep asserting that it is, and that's the extent of your argument.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:24 PM   #311
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
If a company has the means to pick up the tissue, then I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to. Are you sure they can't?

As far as the rest, that doesn't change the claims that they aren't selling tissue. If my car gets impounded and they charge me a storage fee, they aren't selling me anything. They're charging me for a service they provided me, even if I didn't want it.
There is nothing in ANY of these comparisons comparable to the processing that PP does to obtain the fetal tissue. They don't just take the whole aborted fetus and chuck it in a bag. They select specific tissues. That requires processing to make it the product that it is. And processing is part of the cost of any product, it's not some separate cost. Even if, in principle, some customer could do that processing themselves, they didn't. And if they had, they wouldn't be getting the same thing.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:26 PM   #312
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Storage is immediately necessary. It's never not necessary, because human tissue is a biohazard. But probably the biggest cost is processing. And processing something is part of the cost of a product. It isn't a separate cost. It doesn't work that way.
You'll never guess what I'm going to ask for! They could easily put the processing in the cost of transportation, making it not part of the product but part of the process in delivering the product.

You're really not doing well at this.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:27 PM   #313
Distracted1
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,920
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Transportation costs would only be part of it.



Storage is immediately necessary. It's never not necessary, because human tissue is a biohazard. But probably the biggest cost is processing. And processing something is part of the cost of a product. It isn't a separate cost. It doesn't work that way.

Whatever PP might do in the future, what they have already done was a sale.
You sidestepped the question.

If all charges could be avoided (by providing doctors, storage facilities, processing, and transportation instead of utilizing PP facilities), would that cause you to withdraw your claim that it is a "sale"?
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:27 PM   #314
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There is nothing in ANY of these comparisons comparable to the processing that PP does to obtain the fetal tissue. They don't just take the whole aborted fetus and chuck it in a bag. They select specific tissues. That requires processing to make it the product that it is. And processing is part of the cost of any product, it's not some separate cost. Even if, in principle, some customer could do that processing themselves, they didn't. And if they had, they wouldn't be getting the same thing.
Then. They. Still. Aren't. Paying. For. The. *******. Tissue. They're. Paying. For. The. Service.

I know you don't want that to be the case, but you keep making the opposite of your point. They still aren't selling the tissue. They're being reimbursed for the service of getting that tissue.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:29 PM   #315
Shalamar
Dark Lord of the JREF
 
Shalamar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Else
Posts: 4,568
It seems that Planned parenthood is NOT selling Baby Parts, which is what was claimed that conservatives believe. (I'll take a left leg, and an eye)

Planned Parenthood DOES however, provide fetal tissue (that was donated to PP), as long as the recipients cover the processing, and shipping fees.
__________________

"The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."
Shalamar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:30 PM   #316
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 18,552
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
As for the idea that companies could come in and take the tissue themselves... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
(Your link to support this claim is not working.)
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:32 PM   #317
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,104
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And the obvious implication (for someone who is neither stupid nor disingenuous) was concerning Christians in the US.

Christians in the DPRK or Afghanistan under the Taliban doesn't really count.
Why don't they count? That seems, dare I say, kinda racist.
They don't count because the persecution of specific religions in particular countries is accepted.

Minoosh could correct me, but from her description, her aunt was almost certainly thinking that Christians are persecuted in the US. I have come across rightwing evangelical Christians in the UK who likewise believe that Christians are persecuted in the UK. I have yet to come across a non-evangelical Christian or a non-rightwing Christian in the UK who believes that Christians are persecuted in the UK. I have lunch with several non-evangelical, but devout Christians most days*.


*As an aside, the most leftwing one really dislikes the religious right - thinking they don't follow Jesus' teachings, and also for example their disbelief in evolution.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:36 PM   #318
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
And your responses failed to persuade me.

More on my aunt: She thinks that living, viable babies are being ripped apart by Planned Parenthood for no motive other than profit.
Never been a fan of assuming only bad motives for opponents. But as this thread's OP shows, that's a pretty common fault.

Quote:
She thinks Christians are killed for their beliefs more often than people of other faiths.
Is she wrong? How do you know?

Quote:
I haven't quizzed her about the benefits illegal immigrants get, and would like to hear what you have to say.
Did you assume that those beliefs must be wrong, without even knowing what they were?

Huh.

Quote:
I don't consider a handling fee for a tissue sample a sale. You keep asserting that it is, and that's the extent of your argument.
No further argument is really necessary. It's a simple definitional question. And my definition comports with common usage. Yours doesn't.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:39 PM   #319
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,793
Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
It seems that Planned parenthood is NOT selling Baby Parts, which is what was claimed that conservatives believe. (I'll take a left leg, and an eye)

Planned Parenthood DOES however, provide fetal tissue (that was donated to PP), as long as the recipients cover the processing, and shipping fees.
So they don't sell baby parts, except they do sell them at cost. Got it.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd August 2019, 12:40 PM   #320
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,514
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Then. They. Still. Aren't. Paying. For. The. *******. Tissue. They're. Paying. For. The. Service.

I know you don't want that to be the case, but you keep making the opposite of your point. They still aren't selling the tissue. They're being reimbursed for the service of getting that tissue.

"Officer, I don't sell drugs, I'm being reimbursed for the service of me going to my supplier and getting the drugs, delivering the drugs to the user and collecting cash for the drugs, some of which I keep as a handling fee."

Or

"No I don't sell drugs, I charge for the bag, my storage, and the service of weighing and distributing the drugs. I make no profit therefore I don't sell drugs."
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.