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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:43 PM   #321
Shalamar
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So they don't sell baby parts, except they do sell them at cost. Got it.
Nope. No baby parts used at all.

Or you could, you know, provide evidence that they sell baby parts?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:43 PM   #322
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As far as racism - I have heard my aunt disparaging Mexicans, and I disagree with her, but I don't condemn her as racist. That's because I think most people are, to a certain extent. Not in the sense of supporting a structure that promotes white supremacy, but the way people are in general based on superficial differences.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:44 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
"Officer, I don't sell drugs, I'm being reimbursed for the service of me going to my supplier and getting the drugs, delivering the drugs to the user and collecting cash for the drugs, some of which I keep as a handling fee."

Or

"No I don't sell drugs, I charge for the bag, my storage, and the service of weighing and distributing the drugs. I make no profit therefore I don't sell drugs."
Thank you for that awesome example of a False Dichotomy.

Were you going for something else? Man, that is just spot on. Thanks bud.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:44 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Then. They. Still. Aren't. Paying. For. The. *******. Tissue. They're. Paying. For. The. Service.

I know you don't want that to be the case, but you keep making the opposite of your point. They still aren't selling the tissue. They're being reimbursed for the service of getting that tissue.
And fishermen don't sell fish. They're being reimbursed for the service of getting those fish.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:47 PM   #325
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I feel like we've come to the point where the OP has been refuted.

Certain epithets are not obsolete.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:47 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And fishermen don't sell fish. They're being reimbursed for the service of getting those fish.
Do they sell that fish for only the cost of the services (in other words, selling the services) or do they sell those fish for more than it costs?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:47 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And the fungibility of money isn't a difficult concept either. Nor is the fact that for many products, labor costs (ie, service, or if you like handling) can dominate.
This has nothing to do with the fungibility of money.

It's about being charged for an item/product vs being charged for a service.

Planned Parenthood is charging for the service of transporting and handling fetal tissue.

They are not charging for the fetal tissue itself.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:48 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And fishermen don't sell fish. They're being reimbursed for the service of getting those fish.
Seems quite the waste of time to only cover the cost of getting the fish.
Same profit as not heading to sea at all.
I don't think working people are quite as dumb as you conservatives seem to think they are.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:53 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Do they sell that fish for only the cost of the services (in other words, selling the services) or do they sell those fish for more than it costs?
I find it funny that you think this is even a relevant question, that the answer to whether a fish is a good or a service depends upon it in any way. I find it funnier that you don't know that sometimes they have to sell for less than it cost them. And the funniest of all is that you think people can't make large profit margins on services.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:57 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I find it funny that you think this is even a relevant question, that the answer to whether a fish is a good or a service depends upon it in any way. I find it funnier that you don't know that sometimes they have to sell for less than it cost them. And the funniest of all is that you think people can't make large profit margins on services.
Interesting points.

Does PP sometimes "sell" fetal tissue for less than it cost them?
Does the "price" of the fetal tissue vary based upon market forces?

When a doctor transplants a donated organ into a recipient, is it common usage for the recipient to say that his/her doctor "sold" him/her a new kidney?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 12:58 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I find it funny that you think this is even a relevant question, that the answer to whether a fish is a good or a service depends upon it in any way. I find it funnier that you don't know that sometimes they have to sell for less than it cost them. And the funniest of all is that you think people can't make large profit margins on services.
That's a great strawman, Zigg. I think we're about to the point though where we can reasonably say your argument is complete ******** and should be disregarded. You tried to slide in a nonsensical, long debunked, stupid conspiracy theory, got called on it, and now you're trying to use, what you feel is, whit to get out of it.

See through.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:09 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This has nothing to do with the fungibility of money.

It's about being charged for an item/product vs being charged for a service.

Planned Parenthood is charging for the service of transporting and handling fetal tissue.

They are not charging for the fetal tissue itself.
Aren't they actually just recovering the cost of transporting the tissue? It's not like FexEx, more like claiming back mileage for travel.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:17 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Aren't they actually just recovering the cost of transporting the tissue?
No. Why would you think that?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:22 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Interesting points.

Does PP sometimes "sell" fetal tissue for less than it cost them?
Does the "price" of the fetal tissue vary based upon market forces?
Why are these questions relevant? Would their answers change whether or not the tissue is sold?

Quote:
When a doctor transplants a donated organ into a recipient, is it common usage for the recipient to say that his/her doctor "sold" him/her a new kidney?
The doctors who perform the implant surgery don't procure the organ.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:26 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. Why would you think that?
Because that is literally what they said they were doing.

(Which you will ignore and hand-wave away)
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:29 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's a great strawman, Zigg. I think we're about to the point though where we can reasonably say your argument is complete ******** and should be disregarded. You tried to slide in a nonsensical, long debunked, stupid conspiracy theory, got called on it, and now you're trying to use, what you feel is, whit to get out of it.

See through.
This is your dumbest reply yet. We're having what's really a definitional debate: does what PP did count as the sale of a product or only a service? Nobody is contesting the primary facts of the case, that PP provided tissue, and got money in return. That's not a conspiracy, that's a matter of public record, one which PP freely admits. And my position, that it's the sale of tissue, requires no conspiracy in order to be true. Nothing I'm saying requires PP to have acted illegally. Nothing I'm saying requires PP to have done anything they haven't said they did. So regardless of whether you agree with me, how the hell do you jump to this being a conspiracy theory? Are you trying to use the wookie defense?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:30 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Because that is literally what they said they were doing.

(Which you will ignore and hand-wave away)
No, it isn't. They said they were charging for their costs. Their costs include more than transportation. We've been over this already. You have hand-waved away their non-transport costs, not me.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:31 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is your dumbest reply yet. We're having what's really a definitional debate:
Let me stop you there. No, we're not. You're trying to frame what PP does as selling tissue, while everyone else in reality tells you they aren't. The rest of what you said can safely be ignored.

ETA: For the final time, source where they say they sell the tissue. You still haven't done that.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:39 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, it isn't. They said they were charging for their costs. Their costs include more than transportation.
But it doesn't include the cost of the tissue itself.

This is unambiguous and explicit in its clarity.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:39 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
"Officer, I don't sell drugs, I'm being reimbursed for the service of me going to my supplier and getting the drugs, delivering the drugs to the user and collecting cash for the drugs, some of which I keep as a handling fee."

Or

"No I don't sell drugs, I charge for the bag, my storage, and the service of weighing and distributing the drugs. I make no profit therefore I don't sell drugs."
It's like you guys have to meet a quota for ******** posts in a day.

In a mature market, the price of a sales item is largely dictated by what consumers are willing to pay. One's storage and labor costs could conceivably rise much more than the market price, thus eating into profits (possibly even forcing the seller to unload her wares at below cost). In other words, a profit is not even a necessary component of a "sale." For-profit businesses sell items at a loss.

I have a book with a market value of $50 gathering dust on a shelf. A friend of a friend offers to purchase the item possession. I say, "no, I'll just send it to you." He offers to cover the shipping expense. We meet up later, and I say it was $5. You would conceivably have a point if we met up later and I said, "With shipping and handling, it comes out to $55."

To support the claim that Planned Parenthood sells body parts, you need to show something to the effect their charges are responsive to demand (or, if the market is uncompetitive, willingness to pay). So what's your evidence?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:42 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
"Officer, I don't sell drugs, I'm being reimbursed for the service of me going to my supplier and getting the drugs, delivering the drugs to the user and collecting cash for the drugs, some of which I keep as a handling fee."

Or

"No I don't sell drugs, I charge for the bag, my storage, and the service of weighing and distributing the drugs. I make no profit therefore I don't sell drugs."
I like how in your imaginary and irrelevant scenario, you don't seem to realize that you're going to jail either way.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 01:48 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Let me stop you there. No, we're not. You're trying to frame what PP does as selling tissue, while everyone else in reality tells you they aren't. The rest of what you said can safely be ignored.

ETA: For the final time, source where they say they sell the tissue. You still haven't done that.
They don't use the word "sell", but they explicitly say that they give tissue, and charge money for it. The fact that they don't use the word doesn't mean that that's not what they're doing. Just like how Target has customers and employees, even though they always call them "guests" and "team members" respectively.

Oh, and it's kind of funny how you want everyone to ignore that I called you on your bull **** accusation of conspiracy theories.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:16 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They don't use the word "sell", but they explicitly say that they give tissue, and charge money for it. The fact that they don't use the word doesn't mean that that's not what they're doing. Just like how Target has customers and employees, even though they always call them "guests" and "team members" respectively.

Oh, and it's kind of funny how you want everyone to ignore that I called you on your bull **** accusation of conspiracy theories.
With the exception of one far right poster's drive-by, everyone has been pointing out that your conspiracy theory is wrong. But, like TBD before you, you seem to think that there is a silent majority that agrees with your failed claims.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:23 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
With the exception of one far right poster's drive-by, everyone has been pointing out that your conspiracy theory is wrong. But, like TBD before you, you seem to think that there is a silent majority that agrees with your failed claims.
How can it be a conspiracy theory if I'm not alleging a conspiracy? Seriously, how stupid an accusation can you make?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:25 PM   #345
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It is a conspiracy theory that planned parenthood sells foetal tissue as opposed to recovering their costs as mandated in law.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:28 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
It's like you guys have to meet a quota for ******** posts in a day.
This semantic argument is so stupid, Cain is posting in his real voice. That's like The Onion giving up because there is no way they can come up with something more ridiculous.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:29 PM   #347
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I thought I had bought my home from the previous owner, but it turns out it was from my bank, via a loan that I had to pay interest on. And they even made a profit off of it!

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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:34 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Naming a logical fallacy doesn't make one immune to it.







That wasn't one.
"godwin" isn't a logical fallacy.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:40 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"godwin" isn't a logical fallacy.
...and let the semantic games begin!
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:41 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They don't use the word "sell", but they explicitly say that they give tissue, and charge money for it.
They in fact do not do this.

They charge money for a service. They do not charge money for the tissue.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:44 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It is a conspiracy theory that planned parenthood sells foetal tissue as opposed to recovering their costs as mandated in law.
How is that a conspiracy? I allege nothing secret, nothing illegal. And the basic facts upon which I base my conclusion are public and undisputed.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:46 PM   #352
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
They in fact do not do this.

They charge money for a service. They do not charge money for the tissue.
Even under your own reasoning, the service that they're charging for is still giving tissue. So congratulations, you can't even manage internal coherence.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 02:56 PM   #353
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How can it be a conspiracy theory if I'm not alleging a conspiracy? Seriously, how stupid an accusation can you make?
You are accusing Planned Parenthood of being deceptive about whether or not they sell "baby parts".

Multiple people at Planned Parenthood would have to be involved in perpetrating this deception.

Thus, a conspiracy. And therefore, a conspiracy theory.

One of several that you've peddled on this forum.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:03 PM   #354
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Even under your own reasoning, the service that they're charging for is still giving tissue. So congratulations, you can't even manage internal coherence.
That's super.

Also, Planned Parenthood does not charge for fetal tissue samples.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:05 PM   #355
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So if a kidney donor is compensated for the medical costs associated with harvesting the kidney, they're selling a kidney? But that's illegal!!

Speaking of illegal, still waiting to find out which benefits illegal immigrants are getting.

ETA: I'm not saying they don't get any, just wondering what they are.

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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:24 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Yes. Yes, I am. WITH TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Supporter does not equal voter. There will be useful idiots who will vote for him for various reasons we've all discussed (with disgust). Pro-Lifers, Fundies Praying for him to die so Bible-Thumping Pence is Promoted, People Who Vote Republican Regardless of the Scumbag Nominated By the Party, Fiscal Conservatives Fans of Huge Deficits, Greedy Bastards.... etc...

I'm talking about the Trumpistas, where the bigotry is not a bug, but a feature. People whose entire political involvement is "I hate people not like me". People who think that Go Back to Africa and Love It or Leave It are propositions that can be intelligently discussed.
Well, yes. If I meet a rabid dog on the road, I don't stop to pet it.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:27 PM   #357
Beelzebuddy
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
And your responses failed to persuade me.

More on my aunt: She thinks that living, viable babies are being ripped apart by Planned Parenthood for no motive other than profit.
Which is the point. Do you think Ziggurat would correct your aunt with the same fierce pedantry he's displaying here?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:31 PM   #358
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I don't want to cheapen the word "evil".
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:48 PM   #359
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Which is the point. Do you think Ziggurat would correct your aunt with the same fierce pedantry he's displaying here?
Do you think Minoosh's aunt actually exists and believes what Minoosh claims?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 03:53 PM   #360
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Which is the point. Do you think Ziggurat would correct your aunt with the same fierce pedantry he's displaying here?
I can't pretend to understand why some posters say what they say. It seems there is a contingent that, while not necessarily defending Trump, will instead attack criticisms of Trump, often seizing on one aspect of a controversy and digging in so that the thread becomes about some tangential issue. I don't know if that's just conservatives, but it seems that way to me.

ETA: Let's say it's not 40 percent who will support Trump no matter what. It's some other number - hopefully much smaller than 40 percent. But even if it's 39 percent, I think that one percentage point matters. My hope is that at the polls some 2016 Trump voters will realize that 4 more years of Trump are going to be bad for the country. Even if he's not a racist pig, but just dangerously incompetent.

Last edited by Minoosh; 2nd August 2019 at 04:00 PM.
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