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Old 5th August 2019, 12:30 PM   #81
theprestige
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Which is, ironically, not any part of US naturalization policy.
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Old 5th August 2019, 12:31 PM   #82
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Double post.
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Old 5th August 2019, 12:33 PM   #83
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Well, anyway. We live in interesting times. I also don't expect Trump to hurt us, although he could. But we are in for an interesting gamble. And no, it's not the poor Danes; we invited him. We hope to have great benefits from a good relationship with whatever is the current US administration.

But we shall see how he reacts to the protesters.

Hans
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Old 5th August 2019, 12:52 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
But we shall see how he reacts to the protesters.

Hans

It might end up like London. His staff will make sure he never sees the protestors and then he'll talk about the one small group of protesters he saw and the fake news about big protests.
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Old 5th August 2019, 12:54 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
It might end up like London. His staff will make sure he never sees the protestors and then he'll talk about the one small group of protesters he saw and the fake news about big protests.
Shouldn't surprise me. But few people here believe one word of what he says, so ...

Hans
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:17 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Addressing a separate point separately:


Here's another commonplace dynamic in "debates" on this forum. Someone says something you believe is silly and hyperbolic, but they're progressive, or a fellow traveler, or otherwise a devotee of Correct Thought, so you let it pass. But the moment someone from the out-group challenges it, you turn on them and try to make it their fault that the issue even came up at all.

If you'd actually gone through this thread in chronological order, calling out its defects as you went, you'd have gotten to Hans's silly hyperbole long before you got to my replies.
I must've read his post. His comment, stated once, didn't strike me all that much. I saw one post by Hans that used the phrase "destroy [Danish] economy on a whim."

I saw at least four of your posts suggesting that Trump could do just that (I'm ignoring the first two in which you cast doubt on the notion) before I responded.

Nothing to do with sides. I don't really know MRC Hans's politics and I don't regard myself as a Democrat, liberal or progressive though I am certainly anti-Trump and appalled at the way Republicans in Congress and elsewhere are ignoring Trump's behavior, but none of that has to do with calling you out. It is the repetition of Hans's statement as if you find it plausible that I found tedious.

I promise you, I don't call you out on every silly statement you make.

Last edited by phiwum; 5th August 2019 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:22 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I must've read his post. His comment, stated once, didn't strike me all that much. I saw one post by Hans that used the phrase "destroy [Danish] economy on a whim."

I saw at least four of your posts suggesting that Trump could do just that (I'm ignoring the first two in which you cast doubt on the notion) before I responded.

Nothing to do with sides. I don't really know MRC Hans's politics and I don't regard myself as a Democrat, liberal or progressive though I am certainly anti-Trump and appalled at the way Republicans in Congress and elsewhere are ignoring Trump's behavior, but none of that has to do with calling you out. It is the repetition of Hans's statement as if you find it plausible that I found tedious.

I promise you, I don't call you out on every silly statement you make.
Oh god. You'd be banned for spamming if you called out every silly statement I made.

Anyway, fair enough. Different people choose to engage with different parts of each post and argument. We seem to be back to something more reasonable now.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in September.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:28 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh god. You'd be banned for spamming if you called out every silly statement I made.

Anyway, fair enough. Different people choose to engage with different parts of each post and argument. We seem to be back to something more reasonable now.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in September.
I suppose. I confess I'm not too eager to see how Trump interacts with the Danes nor how Danish protestors respond. Pretty minor event in what everyone must agree is an eventful tenure.
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Old 5th August 2019, 02:17 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
What the hell are you talking about?

No one said Bigotry make sense....
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Old 5th August 2019, 02:51 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I suppose. I confess I'm not too eager to see how Trump interacts with the Danes nor how Danish protestors respond. Pretty minor event in what everyone must agree is an eventful tenure.
AH, he will be thrilled to meet our Queen. And she can keep a straight face on anything. No problem there.

There will be some negotiations with our prime minister and some others, and well .... some background noise and balloons.

Hans
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Old 5th August 2019, 04:07 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Don't you think NATO benefits the USA? Even Trump hasn't claimed that.
Gives more than it takes. That much is obvious.



Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Funny thing coming from someone in a country that consists entirely of immigrants.

Hans
More weird **** on this forum.
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Old 5th August 2019, 08:51 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But it would be racist to suggest that, because Trump is literally a foreigner or something.
"Evil!!!"
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Old 5th August 2019, 09:16 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Gives more than it takes. That much is obvious.
obvious to you.
Not obvious to any military or geopolitical expert.
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Old 5th August 2019, 11:51 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
It might end up like London. His staff will make sure he never sees the protestors and then he'll talk about the one small group of protesters he saw and the fake news about big protests.

His staff won't even be needed for that. Unfortunately, the police in Copenhagen usually see to that. In the first link, you can see them take Tibetan flags from protesters during a Chinese state visit to Denmark:

ARKIV-VIDEO Her griber politiet ind mod demonstranter med Tibets flag - Politiet hev Tibets flag ud af hånden på demonstranter under det kinesiske statsbesøg i Danmark i 2012. (DR.dk)
Tibetsagen: Politiet skulle tackle demonstranter ’med kærlighed’ - Københavns Politi har forklaret, at det ikke var hensigten at gemme kinakritiske demonstranter af vejen under et officielt besøg i 2014. Men Tibetkomissionens beretning afslører, at der er flere ting, som peger i den modsatte retning (Information.dk)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th August 2019, 12:14 AM   #95
dann
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Funny thing coming from someone in a country that consists entirely of immigrants.

No, not entirely. There are still 5.4 million descendants of the native population left:

Quote:
The nation’s population of American Indians and Alaska Natives, including those of more than one race. They made up about 2 percent of the total population in 2014. Of this total, about 48 percent were American Indian and Alaska Native only, and about 52 percent were American Indian and Alaska Native in combination with one or more other races.
Facts for Features: American Indian and Alaska Native Heritage Month: November 2015 (United States Census Bureau, Nov. 2, 2015)

But Baylor probably thinks of the way that his ancestors massacred the American Indians. (Hell, even we Danes knew, from having watched too many John Wayne movies, that those Injuns were scalping-obsessed savages who deserved it!) Now he can't sleep at night because he fears that the Latin American INVASION (Guardian, Aug. 5, 2019) is going to do he same to him and his precious race!
You know, El Paso wasn't an act of terror to these paranoids. It was an act of self-defence!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 6th August 2019 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:11 AM   #96
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
"Evil!!!"
Now you're getting it.
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:55 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, not entirely. There are still 5.4 million descendants of the native population left:
Yes, certainly, my apologies to those. Still, the USA we know today was built by immigrants. So why exactly do some claim that accepting immigrants is national suicide? Do they side with native Americans? ... I somehow doubt it.

Hans
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Old 6th August 2019, 01:57 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
His staff won't even be needed for that. Unfortunately, the police in Copenhagen usually see to that. In the first link, you can see them take Tibetan flags from protesters during a Chinese state visit to Denmark:

*snip*
Well, considering the fuzz that caused, they're likely to keep their hands off the trump balloon.

Hans
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Old 6th August 2019, 02:01 PM   #99
theprestige
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Protesting literal tyranny and oppression? Bad.

Protesting Donald Trump? Okay, sure.
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Old 6th August 2019, 04:36 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Yes, certainly, my apologies to those. Still, the USA we know today was built by immigrants. So why exactly do some claim that accepting immigrants is national suicide? Do they side with native Americans? ... I somehow doubt it.

Hans
This is so stupid.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:39 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is so stupid.
As a good buddy of mine recently posted in another thread:

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Old 7th August 2019, 02:08 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Yes, certainly, my apologies to those. Still, the USA we know today was built by immigrants. So why exactly do some claim that accepting immigrants is national suicide? Do they side with native Americans? ... I somehow doubt it.

Me too!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th August 2019, 02:33 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Protesting literal tyranny and oppression? Bad.

Protesting Donald Trump? Okay, sure.

That has nothing to do with it in the case of Danish politicians and their police.
It's more like: 'Upsetting visitors who might therefore not be inclined to buy Danish export goods? No way! Why worry about the kind of bigots they are? And they can be white, yellow or orange for all we care.'

From Bertolt Brecht's Flüchtlingsgespräche:

Quote:
Sie haben immer betont: Wir sind zu schwach, um uns zu verteidigen, wir wir müssen Schweine verkaufen…Sie waren alle überzeugt, dass der Faschismus bei ihnen nicht geht, weil sie zuviel Humor haben.
Brecht in Denmark

"They have always emphasized: We are too weak to defend ourselves, we have to sell pork ... They were convinced that fascism won't work in Denmark, because they have too much sense of humor for that."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th August 2019, 08:39 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Yes, certainly, my apologies to those. Still, the USA we know today was built by immigrants. So why exactly do some claim that accepting immigrants is national suicide? Do they side with native Americans? ... I somehow doubt it.

Hans
Because in this context, "national" doesn't refer to geography.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:20 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Because in this context, "national" doesn't refer to geography.
I beg to differ. The post I refer to talked about "suicidal nations":

Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Shocking, those who benefit the most and put in the least are happy with NATO. It seems only backwards people stuck in the past still support NATO. These treaties don't reflect current year geopolitics. Why should the US support a suicidal country? Scandinavia belongs to immigrants, according to its leaders. Let China colonize it then, and let the unhappy people die off.
Hans
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:25 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Protesting literal tyranny and oppression? Bad.

Protesting Donald Trump? Okay, sure.
No. The point was that the Copenhagen police suppressed demonstrations in favor of Tibet. This caused considerable scandal and long investigations to place responsibility. So, presumably, they will try to avoid doing the same mistake this time.

But, OTOH, in your vein: First one was to avoid offending a dictator.
Second one is president of a democratic nation, so he should not mind people using their democratic freedom. Right? --- Right??

Hans
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:25 AM   #107
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Hopefully, the Danes will show some respect for the head of a state. You may not like a person but you really should behave yourself.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:28 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Hopefully, the Danes will show some respect for the head of a state. You may not like a person but you really should behave yourself.
I expect he will, on the official level, be given the royal treatment (literally).

And I will expect there will be protesters in the streets. That's how democracy works, and I can't imagine President Trump does not know and respect this. Can you?

Hans
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:29 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I beg to differ. The post I refer to talked about "suicidal nations":



Hans
You asked why accepting immigrants is national suicide -- a good question -- and it's because what he's really saying is that the ruling tribe is committing "suicide" by allowing invading tribes in.
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:30 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No. The point was that the Copenhagen police suppressed demonstrations in favor of Tibet. This caused considerable scandal and long investigations to place responsibility. So, presumably, they will try to avoid doing the same mistake this time.

But, OTOH, in your vein: First one was to avoid offending a dictator.
Second one is president of a democratic nation, so he should not mind people using their democratic freedom. Right? --- Right??
The use of democratic freedom was never the issue. Why do you keep raising concerns nobody is actually concerned about?
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:32 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You asked why accepting immigrants is national suicide -- a good question -- and it's because what he's really saying is that the ruling tribe is committing "suicide" by allowing invading tribes in.
Yes, sure. And I take the liberty to ironize a bit on this coming from an invading tribe.

And, of course, because it's nonsense.

Hans
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Old 7th August 2019, 09:57 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Yes, sure. And I take the liberty to ironize a bit on this coming from an invading tribe.

And, of course, because it's nonsense.

Hans
Yes, it would be ironic if it was really about property rights rather than tribal chauvinism.
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Old 7th August 2019, 10:16 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
It might end up like London. His staff will make sure he never sees the protestors and then he'll talk about the one small group of protesters he saw and the fake news about big protests.
"They're saying 'Boo-urns', sir."
"Excellent!"
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Old 8th August 2019, 06:43 AM   #114
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One or two Trump staffers ought to be able to figure out what "Send ham hjem!" means, but they probably won't tell him.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th August 2019, 07:00 AM   #115
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Quote:
- Vi følger de anvisninger, vi får, for vi er ikke ballademagere. Der er tale om et fredeligt udtryk baseret på satire fra civilsamfundet mod en magthaver, siger han.
(...)
Han tilføjer i øvrigt, at flere virksomhedsledere allerede har meldt sig på banen i forhold til at finansiere projektet.
Trump-ballon kan komme til København: ’Håber han ser den fra sit hotelværelse’ (DR.dk, Aug. 5, 2019)

- We will follow the instructions we get (from the police) since we are not troublemakers. It is a peaceful manifestation based on satire from civil society against a potentate, he says.
(...)
He adds that several business leaders have already declared that they would like to contribute financially to project.
Trump balloon may go to Copenhagen: 'I hope that he'll see it from his hotel room'
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:08 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The use of democratic freedom was never the issue. Why do you keep raising concerns nobody is actually concerned about?
I can assure you that democratic freedom is an issue and that we are extremely concerned about it in Denmark. If you are not concerned in the US, then so much worse.

Hans
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:50 AM   #117
theprestige
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I can assure you that democratic freedom is an issue and that we are extremely concerned about it in Denmark. If you are not concerned in the US, then so much worse.
Is your misunderstanding purposeful?

Are you concerned that Trump may somehow threaten your democratic freedoms during his visit?
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:56 AM   #118
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Potentially, yes. After all he has already demonstrated lack of respect for democratic freedom, both in other countries and in his own.

Hans
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Last edited by MRC_Hans; 8th August 2019 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Correcting small typo.
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Trump balloon may go to Copenhagen: 'I hope that he'll see it from his hotel room'
I wonder if, as skeptics, we can examine the data on this balloon.
  • What was the intended result of deploying the balloon in the UK?
  • Was it intended to modify Trump's behavior in some way?
  • Do we know if it did modify Trump's behavior in that way?
  • Do we know if it modified Trump's behavior in some other way?
  • Was it intended to have an effect on other people who saw the balloon?
  • Do we know if it had that effect on those other people?
  • Do we know if it had some other effect on those people?
  • How do the people who deployed the balloon feel about the Trump situation?
  • Better? Worse? About the same?
  • Etc.

It'd be nice to have this data, and then compare it to the data from the Danish deployment. Seems like we could learn useful, practical stuff about protest balloons, UKians, and Denmarkians, with a proper bit of data collection and analysis.

I guess this could all be summarized as "what's the point of the balloon?" But I doubt anyone here has a good, skeptical, data-driven answer to that question.
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:59 AM   #120
theprestige
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Potentially, yes. After all he has already demostrated lack of respect for democratic freedom, both in other countries and in his own.
Lack of respect is not the same as threatening something. I have profound lack of respect for the Chinese government, but they have no legitimate concern that I will somehow threaten their rule.

Can you provide some details about your concern that Trump could threaten your democratic freedoms?
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