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Old 6th August 2019, 06:12 AM   #1
Foolmewunz
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CNN Headline: Dayton Shooter Appeared To Have Leftist Twitter Feed

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/05/u...ile/index.html

Notwithstanding that this is supposedly from the Ultra Liberal CNN, in this thread we will humor the spinners from The Great Right Wing Noise Machine and pretend that his political leanings matter. In National Gotcha, you see, the El Paso creep is a Trump Supporter, quoting Trump and acting out his political fantasies, so the Dayton shooter, being a lefty, must prove, well, something.

I'll start. He's "No True Leftist". Incels with hit lists are not on the approved list I left with the doorman.

Note: This thread is in US Politics because the political angle is quite different from the Current Event angle. People looking for arguments as to why the particular weapon is or is not an assault weapon can go to the Daily Mass Shooting thread in SI & CE. This thread is for tribal squabbling.
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:20 AM   #2
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I heard that he played video games! The solution is obvious: mandatory prayer in public schools, and eliminating capital gains tax.
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:20 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/05/u...ile/index.html

Notwithstanding that this is supposedly from the Ultra Liberal CNN, in this thread we will humor the spinners from The Great Right Wing Noise Machine and pretend that his political leanings matter. In National Gotcha, you see, the El Paso creep is a Trump Supporter, quoting Trump and acting out his political fantasies, so the Dayton shooter, being a lefty, must prove, well, something.

I'll start. He's "No True Leftist". Incels with hit lists are not on the approved list I left with the doorman.

Note: This thread is in US Politics because the political angle is quite different from the Current Event angle. People looking for arguments as to why the particular weapon is or is not an assault weapon can go to the Daily Mass Shooting thread in SI & CE. This thread is for tribal squabbling.
Does it matter that in the absence of Trump, the El Paso shooter is liberal?
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:25 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Does it matter that in the absence of Trump, the El Paso shooter is liberal?
The **** are you talking about now Bob? Please make sense.

In my opinion, the reasons behind the shooting are what mattered. The El Paso shooter specifically said that he was going after immigrants because of the invasion. The Dayton shooter hasn't had a motive really released yet. Part of the reason why I dislike it when the shooter dies or kills himself. I'd rather learn what caused it.

Neither is ok, both people are ****, and politics should mean nothing here, but one was politically motivated while the other was certainly not.
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:28 AM   #5
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Thanks Obama
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:31 AM   #6
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After the way they hosted the Debate, I'm not confident that CNN can correctly identify political leanings.
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:31 AM   #7
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*Wakes up to "Dayton Shooter had far left social media feed" and "Texas shooter posted far right manifesto.*

Oh it's gonna be a fun day in the ole' social/political discourse.

*Breaks out the good booze*
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Old 6th August 2019, 06:56 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Breaks out the good booze*
There's your mistake. With this cluster **** you should be breaking out the cheap booze, because you're going to need a lot of it.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:13 AM   #9
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Unless the shooting was motivated partially or wholly by his political beliefs, it does't seem important whether he could be described as a "leftist" or "rightist".
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:22 AM   #10
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Which Democrat did he quote in his manifesro?
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:28 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Which Democrat did he quote in his manifesro?
We have to wait until they pick their final candidate. It'll be that one.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:28 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The **** are you talking about now Bob? Please make sense.

In my opinion, the reasons behind the shooting are what mattered. The El Paso shooter specifically said that he was going after immigrants because of the invasion. The Dayton shooter hasn't had a motive really released yet. Part of the reason why I dislike it when the shooter dies or kills himself. I'd rather learn what caused it.

Neither is ok, both people are ****, and politics should mean nothing here, but one was politically motivated while the other was certainly not.
Just wondering how do you know the other was certainly not politically motivated? I agree it probably wasn’t. But we don’t know.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:31 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Just wondering how do you know the other was certainly not politically motivated? I agree it probably wasn’t. But we don’t know.
Point conceded. Thank God for you keeping me honest here eeyore!

Let me change it to, "There's absolutely zero evidence at all that the Dayton shooter was politically motivated, while there is a massive amount of evidence that the El Paso shooter was politically motivated."
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:53 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The **** are you talking about now Bob? Please make sense.

In my opinion, the reasons behind the shooting are what mattered. The El Paso shooter specifically said that he was going after immigrants because of the invasion. The Dayton shooter hasn't had a motive really released yet. Part of the reason why I dislike it when the shooter dies or kills himself. I'd rather learn what caused it.

Neither is ok, both people are ****, and politics should mean nothing here, but one was politically motivated while the other was certainly not.
The El Paso shooter favored things like universal health care. But if we talk about the shooter's politics, I'm asking about what political positions we can factor in.
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Old 6th August 2019, 07:58 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The El Paso shooter favored things like universal health care. But if we talk about the shooter's politics, I'm asking about what political positions we can factor in.
Evidence? The only thing I can see even close to that when I looked it up was:

Quote:
Hispanic invaders will demand government freebies—specifically a universal basic income (UBI)—and will cause civil unrest if not placated. Oddly enough, the author shares some of these goals, for white people anyway: “Achieving ambitious social projects like universal healthcare and UBI would become far more likely to succeed if tens of millions of dependents are removed.”
That certainly doesn't say he supports it. It says it would be more likely to happen if those damn immigrants weren't here!

Do you have something showing his support?
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:07 AM   #16
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Is there any indication that this person's left leaning political ideologies drove him to commit mass murder? I don't really see a connection between a guy liking Elizabeth Warren and shooting up a bar and killing 9 people. The fact that among those 9 people was his sister strongly implies a much more personal, apolitical motivation. Apolitical mass shooters are very common.

There is no equivalency between the Dayton shooter and the El Paso shooter. The El Paso shooter left an unambiguously white nationalist manifesto explicitly citing right-wing talking points as the reason for killing strangers. I see no such similar, left-wing motive for the Dayton shooter.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:11 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Evidence? The only thing I can see even close to that when I looked it up was:



That certainly doesn't say he supports it. It says it would be more likely to happen if those damn immigrants weren't here!

Do you have something showing his support?
I conclude he supports those based on that statement. You are free to disagree.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any indication that this person's left leaning political ideologies drove him to commit mass murder? I don't really see a connection between a guy liking Elizabeth Warren and shooting up a bar and killing 9 people. The fact that among those 9 people was his sister strongly implies a much more personal, apolitical motivation. Apolitical mass shooters are very common.

There is no equivalency between the Dayton shooter and the El Paso shooter. The El Paso shooter left an unambiguously white nationalist manifesto explicitly citing right-wing talking points as the reason for killing strangers. I see no such similar, left-wing motive for the Dayton shooter.
From what I understand the shooter rode downtown with his sister and the friend that got shot, but not killed. I believe she was the first one shot as well, or at least among the first.

I agree with you, I don't know what this guy's motivation was, but it doesn't seem to be political.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:13 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I conclude he supports those based on that statement. You are free to disagree.
Of course I'm going to disagree because there's absolutely nothing in that statement that says he agrees with it. So yes, I'll stick with reality.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:20 AM   #20
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I won't claim to have any insight into whether or not the shooting was politically motivated, but I will say that anybody who had been investigated several times by the police from high school onwards for keeping "kill and rape" lists while constantly casually talking about wanting to kill people probably shouldn't have been allowed to own an assault rifle.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I won't claim to have any insight into whether or not the shooting was politically motivated, but I will say that anybody who had been investigated several times by the police from high school onwards for keeping "kill and rape" lists while constantly casually talking about wanting to kill people probably shouldn't have been allowed to own an assault rifle.
Disagree. Free speech.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Of course I'm going to disagree because there's absolutely nothing in that statement that says he agrees with it. So yes, I'll stick with reality.
It was just cataloguing probabilities for their own sake.

I have met very few that actually write like that. One of them is me.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:31 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any indication that this person's left leaning political ideologies drove him to commit mass murder? I don't really see a connection between a guy liking Elizabeth Warren and shooting up a bar and killing 9 people. The fact that among those 9 people was his sister strongly implies a much more personal, apolitical motivation. Apolitical mass shooters are very common.
I was going to say this as well.a mass shooter that was caught twice with a list of girls he'd like to rape and boys he'd like to kill, who killed his sister and shot a bunch of other people? Sounds like the standard domestic violence type on mass murderer, although of course we can't be sure. Maybe he was mad that she was dating someone and he wasn't, maybe he just heard of the El Paso guy and decided "Hey, let me get some fame, too!"

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Old 6th August 2019, 08:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Disagree. Free speech.
The speech would still be free, it's the bearing of arms that would be infringed.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:37 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I won't claim to have any insight into whether or not the shooting was politically motivated, but I will say that anybody who had been investigated several times by the police from high school onwards for keeping "kill and rape" lists while constantly casually talking about wanting to kill people probably shouldn't have been allowed to own an assault rifle.
I know this isn't really your point, but the weapon used was not an assault rifle. The term "assault rifle" has a fairly specific meaning. It's a military term for a class of fully automatic weapons. All fully automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the US and exceedingly difficult for most people to get their hands on legally. The M16 fully automatic rifle is an assault rifle. The AR15 semiautomatic rifle is not an assault rifle. It is sometimes classified as an assault weapon by various pieces of legislation. Definitions under such laws are not consistent, and often depend upon cosmetic features.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:40 AM   #26
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Here's the thing about "leftist shooters." Leftists don't want them to have guns either. **** any Republican gobbler of NRA knobs who tries to lay this at the feet of liberals.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The speech would still be free, it's the bearing of arms that would be infringed.
Infringing on someone's rights because of their speech makes the speech unfree.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I know this isn't really your point, but the weapon used was not an assault rifle. The term "assault rifle" has a fairly specific meaning. It's a military term for a class of fully automatic weapons. All fully automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the US and exceedingly difficult for most people to get their hands on legally. The M16 fully automatic rifle is an assault rifle. The AR15 semiautomatic rifle is not an assault rifle. It is sometimes classified as an assault weapon by various pieces of legislation. Definitions under such laws are not consistent, and often depend upon cosmetic features.
Or burst fire. For example, the M16A2 doesn't have a full auto mode, just a 3 shot burst. And I believe that was the most commonly made full length barrel military version of the AR-15.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:48 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Infringing on someone's rights because of their speech makes the speech unfree.
I disagree. They'd still be free to keep on saying what they said. The right to free speech is that your speech won't be stopped, not that your speech is guaranteed to be free of negative consequences. You're free to tell your boss they're a jerk, but you can't stop them from firing you for it.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:53 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I know this isn't really your point, but the weapon used was not an assault rifle. The term "assault rifle" has a fairly specific meaning. It's a military term for a class of fully automatic weapons. All fully automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the US and exceedingly difficult for most people to get their hands on legally. The M16 fully automatic rifle is an assault rifle. The AR15 semiautomatic rifle is not an assault rifle. It is sometimes classified as an assault weapon by various pieces of legislation. Definitions under such laws are not consistent, and often depend upon cosmetic features.
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Or burst fire. For example, the M16A2 doesn't have a full auto mode, just a 3 shot burst. And I believe that was the most commonly made full length barrel military version of the AR-15.
Thank God we've got that clarification.
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Old 6th August 2019, 08:57 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Thank God we've got that clarification.
Three things that always get posted: the definition of "assault weapon", the distinction between "pit bull" and actual breed, and the clarification between pedophilia and hebephilia. These are inevitable.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:03 AM   #32
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Threats are not protected speech in the US under the First Amendment.

Not that that's really relevant, because nobody is arguing that he shouldn't have been allowed to write "rape and kill" lists or constantly talk about wanting to kill people, just that those actions should probably preclude him from owning a (not) assault rifle.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:18 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Three things that always get posted: the definition of "assault weapon", the distinction between "pit bull" and actual breed, and the clarification between pedophilia and hebephilia. These are inevitable.
That is like our secret handshake IRL. Anyone who makes those threes corrections in a face to face conversation is a member here, guaranteed. Whether you ask for their screen name is really up to you.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:24 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Three things that always get posted: the definition of "assault weapon", the distinction between "pit bull" and actual breed, and the clarification between pedophilia and hebephilia. These are inevitable.
Thank you for the small chuckle during this grim moment.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I disagree. They'd still be free to keep on saying what they said. The right to free speech is that your speech won't be stopped, not that your speech is guaranteed to be free of negative consequences. You're free to tell your boss they're a jerk, but you can't stop them from firing you for it.
I'll come back to the question of freedom of association, and relationships between private individuals, in a bit. If it's still relevant.

The government should not punish people for exercising their rights. Infringing on a right to punish the exercise of another right is an infringement of the first right as well. The government should not do this. If the speech is free from government interference, then it must be truly free from government interference. As soon as the government starts punishing you in any way, by any means, the speech is no longer free. "You can speak, but if you do we'll take away your other freedoms" means exactly that the speech is no longer free.

It would be a different proposition if we were as free to reject the government's authority as we are to reject the company of a private individual we don't care for. But we're not. Which is why we put these rules in place, restricting the government's standing to infringe on our freedoms.

You're imposing conditions on the exercise of a right. You're explicitly withholding other rights, if you disapprove of the way I exercise this right. That's not freedom, not of speech, not of anything else.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:28 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Three things that always get posted: the definition of "assault weapon", the distinction between "pit bull" and actual breed, and the clarification between pedophilia and hebephilia. These are inevitable.
It is inevitable that someone wrong will be corrected on these three points.
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:33 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is inevitable that someone wrong will be corrected on these three points.
Better question, "Do the corrections made make any difference at all to the subject at hand?"

Seriously, does the distinction between auto, semi-auto, etc. really make a difference?
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:51 AM   #38
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Old 6th August 2019, 09:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Better question, "Do the corrections made make any difference at all to the subject at hand?"

Seriously, does the distinction between auto, semi-auto, etc. really make a difference?
I wouldn't say it is needlessly pedantic to be careful with this kind of language. There are already very significant legal distinctions between automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Given that some form of Assault Weapon Ban is often proposed as a solution to these shootings, parsing out what exactly an assault weapon is tends to be important. Pointing out that mass shooters do not use "machine guns" or "assault rifles" is not pointless hair splitting.

There is often very little political will for sweeping bans of most firearms in the US, often the policy conversation comes down to which specific features will be made illegal. If this is the case, definitions become very important.
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Old 6th August 2019, 10:00 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Better question, "Do the corrections made make any difference at all to the subject at hand?"

Seriously, does the distinction between auto, semi-auto, etc. really make a difference?
Yes. The distinction between fully automatic and semiautomatic weapons is very significant, both practically and legally.
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