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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , Kentucky incidents , Mitch McConnell

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Old 8th August 2019, 08:28 AM   #121
plague311
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why? Is that behaviour that horrifying to you? They're fooling around with a cardboard cutout.
Yeah, well. That cardboard cutout is of another human ******* being. It's not a cardboard cutout of Bob the Builder, Spongebob, or any other non existent entity. It represents a person and the actions they're performing are representative of what they want to do to that person.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Seriously it's innocuous.
I'm not sure why you keep implying this without the "to me" qualifier. It's extremely odd.

Also, it's obviously not innocuous to AOC who gets death threats from Trump\GOP supporters constantly. I totally understand that, to you, this is nothing. Just shrug it away, and move on. To others we see a disturbing pattern of behavior from people and don't condone it.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If that's the objection, Isn't that a matter for their parents, the church, and other picnic-goers? Why does anyone else need to be involved?
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Don't start none, won't be none. Don't want public attention? Don't publish photos of yourself doing dumb things on a global communications network.
Exactly. If no one else needs to be involved then why was a picture taken and posted to a social media\sharing cite?

No one else needs to be involved with me taking a ****, that's why I no longer take pictures of it and post it to my social media accounts. That way no one gets involved because no one knows about it.
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Old 8th August 2019, 08:29 AM   #122
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's no one's problem. It was a cardboard cutout.

What you posted above is nothing but a platitude. It's not an argument. If a woman pretends to grobe or french kiss a picture of Brad Pitt, is she being misandrist?

And I don't appreciate your accusation. Maybe you need to take a break.
Are you seriously unable to at least attempt to understand how women will feel about that photo, or are you saying that isn't a real problem?
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Old 8th August 2019, 08:38 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Exactly. If no one else needs to be involved then why was a picture taken and posted to a social media\sharing cite?
That doesn't make sense. Let's take it as a given that the kids shouldn't have taken the picture or posted it publicly. But how does them making a mistake justify other people making a mistake? Obviously it doesn't. So you still need some actual justification for others getting involved. Some people here have offered reasoning along those lines (like saying it contributes to generalized misogyny in our culture), but pgwenthold's complaint doesn't do it.
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Old 8th August 2019, 08:40 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, well. That cardboard cutout is of another human ******* being. It's not a cardboard cutout of Bob the Builder, Spongebob, or any other non existent entity. It represents a person and the actions they're performing are representative of what they want to do to that person.
Oh, I'm not sure you want to go there, because that would mean that first-person shooters where you kill civilians are "representative" of what you want to do in real life. Nonsense, right?

If you can't distinguish what you pretend to do from what you want to do, then you're no different than people who call video games murder simulators. And I know that you know better than that.

I get it. Tensions are running high. In the modern world we are hyper-sensitive to things that could in any way be interpreted as sexist or racist or whatever. Couple that with the antagonistic level of partisan politics and you have a recipe for constant outrage. But we can't abandon reason just because the conclusion fits social mores.

Teenagers, and even adults, are known to do things in certain contexts that seem silly, stupid or downright malicious. But sometimes it _is_ just stupid kids being stupid kids. I don't know, despite what you've said here I think you've probably said or did things even recently that someone else would, out of context, call evil. You think it was just in good fun.

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Are you seriously unable to at least attempt to understand how women will feel about that photo, or are you saying that isn't a real problem?
Still not an argument. And you don't speak for women.

If some girl pretends to punch a cardboard cutout of Mitch McConnell in the gut, should I be worried as a man? You're not making sense.
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Old 8th August 2019, 08:49 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If some girl pretends to punch a cardboard cutout of Mitch McConnell in the gut, should I be worried as a man? You're not making sense.
You just might, if you had been raised in a society that treated men the way we do women. But you weren't, were you.
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Old 8th August 2019, 08:55 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You just might, if you had been raised in a society that treated men the way we do women. But you weren't, were you.
I was, actually. Were you not raised in a western democracy?

But all this is irrelevant anyway. It's just more platitudes; appeals to emotion, not reason. You're suggesting that had I been raised in a world that treated men as, what, second class citizens, I might feel nervous when someone pretends to punch a man? No, I think I could still distinguish between pretense and intent. Toddlers manage to do it.

You're repeating ideological talking points, but I'm not sure you've thought them through.
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Old 8th August 2019, 09:17 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, I'm not sure you want to go there, because that would mean that first-person shooters where you kill civilians are "representative" of what you want to do in real life. Nonsense, right?

If you can't distinguish what you pretend to do from what you want to do, then you're no different than people who call video games murder simulators. And I know that you know better than that.
False equivalence. Virtual worlds that you log in and out of are not the same as the real one. I'm sure the point seemed awesome, but it's laughable to me. Stick with the "teens will be teens". At least that made sense, this doesn't even come close.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I get it.
I'm consistently convinced you don't.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Tensions are running high. In the modern world we are hyper-sensitive to things that could in any way be interpreted as sexist or racist or whatever. Couple that with the antagonistic level of partisan politics and you have a recipe for constant outrage. But we can't abandon reason just because the conclusion fits social mores.
You're right, but we can certainly handwave away stupid behavior under the "boys will be boys" mantra. That's not abandoning reason at all. Only those with differing opinions than you are abandoning reason, amiright?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Teenagers, and even adults, are known to do things in certain contexts that seem silly, stupid or downright malicious. But sometimes it _is_ just stupid kids being stupid kids.
That's the claim from you guys anyway.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't know, despite what you've said here I think you've probably said or did things even recently that someone else would, out of context, call evil. You think it was just in good fun.
And if I did do that, and it was pointed out to me, I would hope people didn't make excuses for me. I would address my behavior and either rationalize it or apologize for it. I wouldn't expect people to say, "oh, that'll happen sometimes with that plague". Hell, I can't even start a thread without people bitching about how it's not news. Imagine if I had a cardboard cutout of you and I was strangling it, and then posted it on here. People would lose their minds.
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Old 8th August 2019, 09:33 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was, actually. Were you not raised in a western democracy?

But all this is irrelevant anyway. It's just more platitudes; appeals to emotion, not reason. You're suggesting that had I been raised in a world that treated men as, what, second class citizens, I might feel nervous when someone pretends to punch a man? No, I think I could still distinguish between pretense and intent. Toddlers manage to do it.

You're repeating ideological talking points, but I'm not sure you've thought them through.
Oh, I assure you I have thought it through. A lot. How much better off would our society be -- that's you and me -- if women had been allowed the opportunity to rise to their full potential? Why haven't they? Misogyny. It's the same with racism: generations of wasted talent. If you don't appreciate the moral reasoning behind "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," there are perfectly logical reasons.
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Old 8th August 2019, 09:36 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
False equivalence. Virtual worlds that you log in and out of are not the same as the real one.
Oh, please. You can do better than that. Is one form of pretense less fictional than the other? You assert that it is so without any other qualification. So tell me, what is the functional difference, here?

Quote:
You're right, but we can certainly handwave away stupid behavior under the "boys will be boys" mantra. That's not abandoning reason at all.
You're right. Pointing out true things is usually embracing reason, actually.

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That's the claim from you guys anyway.
Are you really now claiming that teens don't do stupid things? That's what they are best known for.

Quote:
And if I did do that, and it was pointed out to me, I would hope people didn't make excuses for me. I would address my behavior and either rationalize it or apologize for it.
Exactly what I said. You'd say it was just in good fun and that it didn't mean anything. When the other people do it, however, you're convinced that they meant it.
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Old 8th August 2019, 09:44 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Oh, I assure you I have thought it through. A lot. How much better off would our society be -- that's you and me -- if women had been allowed the opportunity to rise to their full potential?
What does that even mean? And you don't know. For all you know things would be worse off. Or the same. We have no way to tell.

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Why haven't they? Misogyny.
The problem with that hypothesis is that it assumes that men deliberately kept women out of the loop because they hated them. After all, that's what misogyny means. Hatred of women. I guess they met in dark rooms, and made international pacts as to how to prevent them from 'rising to their full potential', because that was a threat to their manhood!

But that's not history. It's ideology; an axiom that makes the past fit our current beliefs and make sense to us. But it doesn't mean that people of those ages thought that way.

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It's the same with racism: generations of wasted talent.
Agreed. But I prefer to look at how things are, and why, rather than what I imagine they could've been, based on my own set of values. It's not very useful.
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Old 8th August 2019, 09:49 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, please. You can do better than that. Is one form of pretense less fictional than the other? You assert that it is so without any other qualification. So tell me, what is the functional difference, here?
1's and 0's in a video game generally don't have well known people as their image. When you slice a zombie's head off it doesn't have Trump's face, and if it did there would be hell to pay. Right? I find this to be extremely disingenuous but I'll continue to play along.

If I were playing the Columbine Shooting Massacre game I would get a ******* ton of backlash vs. playing plants vs. zombies. Right? I don't even know how to further clarify. One set of people exists, the other doesn't.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You're right. Pointing out true things is usually embracing reason, actually.


Just because your truth isn't a true truth doesn't mean there is no truth, Ruth.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you really now claiming that teens don't do stupid things? That's what they are best known for.
Teens do stupid things all of the time and they should be held accountable for them. Also, teens doing stupid things isn't a reason to ignore or not correct the behavior.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Exactly what I said. You'd say it was just in good fun and that it didn't mean anything. When the other people do it, however, you're convinced that they meant it.
It's actually not exactly what you said at all. I didn't say I would say it was just in good fun. I said I would do one of those two things, and one of them would be acknowledge my behavior and apologize for it. I wouldn't just let people handwave it away. I defended the one kid that apologized for it a few times because that's the appropriate thing to do. So while you guys are like, 'This isn't news, let it go, boys will be boys, shut up', even one of the kids admitted it was stupid and uncalled for.
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Old 8th August 2019, 09:58 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
1's and 0's in a video game generally don't have well known people as their image. When you slice a zombie's head off it doesn't have Trump's face, and if it did there would be hell to pay. Right?
What if you play a video game where you shoot armies of Trump-faced goons? Should Trump be worried about the players? What if it was Kathy Griffin holding his severed head on a picture?

I'm trying to find out what the criteria are for you. I'm going to venture to say we probably agree that pretending to do something, in and of itself, is not enough to constitute intent. So what else is needed? Where do you draw the line exactly? I ask because I have a nagging suspicion that if it was a girl punching McConnell's cardboard cut-out in the gut instead, you'd be more on the "you go girl" side of the discussion.

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Teens do stupid things all of the time and they should be held accountable for them.
Sure, so long as there's reason to account for that thing. "Don't be a dick in front of cameras" sounds like good advice.

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It's actually not exactly what you said at all. I didn't say I would say it was just in good fun. I said I would do one of those two things, and one of them would be acknowledge my behavior and apologize for it.
Yeah but no. Humans are humans. You wouldn't view your behaviour, which you'd consider to be in good fun, as harmful, and you'd see no need to apologise. Hell, you might even throw in a few curse words at the suggestion that you did anything wrong.
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:15 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I guess they met in dark rooms, and made international pacts as to how to prevent them from 'rising to their full potential', because that was a threat to their manhood!
Yes. Sometimes dark rooms, sometimes light rooms, sometimes they wrote it all down in a religious text.
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:30 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What does that even mean? And you don't know. For all you know things would be worse off. Or the same. We have no way to tell.

The problem with that hypothesis is that it assumes that men deliberately kept women out of the loop because they hated them. After all, that's what misogyny means. Hatred of women. I guess they met in dark rooms, and made international pacts as to how to prevent them from 'rising to their full potential', because that was a threat to their manhood!
No, misogyny means "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women." That would include things like hiring and promoting less talented men, giving research grants to less talented men, electing less competent men -- that kind of stuff. You are becoming increasingly cynical (or perhaps disingenuous) to suggest that it might not matter.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But that's not history. It's ideology; an axiom that makes the past fit our current beliefs and make sense to us. But it doesn't mean that people of those ages thought that way.
Huh? I can't figure out what you're trying to say, or the relevance. But yes, I take equal opportunity as fundamental to my ideology because it's the moral thing to do, and I take the benefits as axiomatic. And I'm talking about where I want society to go, such as not using a mock assault on a woman as humor (that's you, too, Al Franken), much less a political statement. Misogyny, like racism, continues because it continues to be accepted and taught to our children. It won't disappear on it's own.
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Old 8th August 2019, 10:42 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
No, misogyny means "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."
Ok fair enough.

Quote:
That would include things like hiring and promoting less talented men, giving research grants to less talented men, electing less competent men -- that kind of stuff.
None of that requires contempt or prejudice. Also, where do you live, for these things to be rampant behaviour?

Quote:
But yes, I take equal opportunity as fundamental to my ideology because it's the moral thing to do, and I take the benefits as axiomatic.
No, I mean that you're assuming a particular intent on the part of people in the past because that assumption suits your ideology.

Quote:
And I'm talking about where I want society to go, such as not using a mock assault on a woman as humor (that's you, too, Al Franken), much less a political statement.
Does that apply to the reverse as well, or are men fair play?
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:10 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What if you play a video game where you shoot armies of Trump-faced goons? Should Trump be worried about the players? What if it was Kathy Griffin holding his severed head on a picture?
What if ifs and buts were candy and nuts? What does a "Trump-faced goon" look like? I condemned Kathy Griffin when she did that dumb ****, the same as I'm condemning these actions here.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm trying to find out what the criteria are for you.
That or searching for a "gotcha" moment. You're at least doing something, which is nice.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm going to venture to say we probably agree that pretending to do something, in and of itself, is not enough to constitute intent.
Pretending to do something at least shows you thought about doing it, or else why would you have pretended?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So what else is needed? Where do you draw the line exactly?
Uhm, taking pictures of me "pretending" to do it to someone I openly dislike? I figured that would be obvious.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I ask because I have a nagging suspicion that if it was a girl punching McConnell's cardboard cut-out in the gut instead, you'd be more on the "you go girl" side of the discussion.
Well, there are factors that would come into play. Is Mitch regularly harassed and threatened by women, including a branch of law enforcement, that have glorified him being killed? AOC is regularly harassed by white men, she's openly said as much. Does a gut punch kill someone? Strangling sure does. I certainly wouldn't be as dismissive of it as you are here.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but no. Humans are humans. You wouldn't view your behaviour, which you'd consider to be in good fun, as harmful, and you'd see no need to apologise. Hell, you might even throw in a few curse words at the suggestion that you did anything wrong.
It's outstanding how much you know about me and my thought process. I've apologized, and admitted that I was wrong on this forum several times. Don't project your personal outlook on me. Make no mistake though, swearing would be apart of it. It's seem to become the subject of conversation a few times around here. Apparently you can't converse if swear words are included because it means you're angry, unintelligent, and mean! It's fun to watch.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:15 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What if ifs and buts were candy and nuts? What does a "Trump-faced goon" look like?
You know what I mean.

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That or searching for a "gotcha" moment. You're at least doing something, which is nice.
Interesting. I flat out tell you what my goal is, you substitute your own speculation for that, then declare that to be the truth. And you speak of me looking for a "gotcha" moment? I'll never understand posters who think that asking for specific arguments, points or reasons is somehow dishonest.

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Pretending to do something at least shows you thought about doing it, or else why would you have thought it up?
For ***** and giggles, to make a statement, to be cool, to troll. Who cares? The point is that pretending to do something is not the same thing as intending to do that thing. There has to be a credible threat to offset that, and there isn't one here.

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Uhm, taking pictures of me "pretending" to do it to someone I openly dislike? I figured that would be obvious.
That's the line, then. It has to be someone you dislike? If you prentend to strangle a friend it's just fun and games?

Quote:
Well, there are factors that would come into play. Is Mitch regularly harassed and threatened by women, including a branch of law enforcement, that have glorified him being killed? AOC is regularly harassed by white men, she's openly said as much. Does a gut punch kill someone? Strangling sure does.
That's all entirely beside the point, which is about intent, not how the target feels about it.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:16 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
None of that requires contempt or prejudice. Also, where do you live, for these things to be rampant behaviour?
I live in a country where we elected a seriously incompetent man over a highly competent woman, and I assure you we're much worse off for it. I have no idea how many Trump votes were because of misogyny, but having read way too many misogynistic screeds about Hillary, I feel pretty confident in believing it was much larger than his very slim win. As for the other stuff, surely you know that prejudice against women is supported by statistics?



Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, I mean that you're assuming a particular intent on the part of people in the past because that assumption suits your ideology.
I have no idea what assumption you're talking about. I haven't said anything about intent on the part of people in the past -- only their misogynistic behavior. Surely you aren't suggesting that that isn't well documented in history?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Does that apply to the reverse as well, or are men fair play?
Well, maybe it should, at least until they get the idea. But it doesn't seem to be catching on, for some reason, so I wouldn't worry about it just yet. I'm sure the right will alert us if any threats arise.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:20 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I live in a country where we elected a seriously incompetent man over a highly competent woman, and I assure you we're much worse off for it.
America, then. By your earlier posts I assumed you were in some oppressive theocratic third world country.

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I have no idea what assumption you're talking about. I haven't said anything about intent on the part of people in the past -- only their misogynistic behavior.
We both defined misogyny as a set of beliefs, not behaviours. You're assuming their beliefs.

Quote:
Well, maybe it should, at least until they get the idea. But it doesn't seem to be catching on, for some reason, so I wouldn't worry about it just yet.
Just to be clear: you think such beliefs or behaviours towards men is ok, but not towards women?
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:41 AM   #140
plague311
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You know what I mean.
No, I literally don't.

Pro-Trumpers got butthurt when ******* Wolfenstein killed Nazi's in their game because it said "Make America Nazi Free Again."

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Interesting. I flat out tell you what my goal is, you substitute your own speculation for that, then declare that to be the truth. And you speak of me looking for a "gotcha" moment? I'll never understand posters who think that asking for specific arguments, points or reasons is somehow dishonest.
You told me how I would act in a given situation just one post earlier. You'll get over it.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
For ***** and giggles, to make a statement, to be cool, to troll. Who cares? The point is that pretending to do something is not the same thing as intending to do that thing. There has to be a credible threat to offset that, and there isn't one here.
Now think long and hard about what statement they were making. Go ahead, and take your time. Get back to me with your results. You seem to be missing the fact that doing this "to be cool" is the problem in the first place.

There have been several credible threats to AOC. Apparently not credible enough for you, but credible to me.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's the line, then. It has to be someone you dislike? If you prentend to strangle a friend it's just fun and games?
Is that...is that odd? Yes, if I take pictures of me strangling someone that I consider my opposition it should have completely different context than pretending to strangle a friend of mine.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's all entirely beside the point, which is about intent, not how the target feels about it.
The context of something is beside the point? Interesting take.
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Old 8th August 2019, 11:55 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
America, then. By your earlier posts I assumed you were in some oppressive theocratic third world country.
Not yet.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We both defined misogyny as a set of beliefs, not behaviours. You're assuming their beliefs.
Swing and a miss. They wrote plenty about their beliefs.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just to be clear: you think such beliefs or behaviours towards men is ok, but not towards women?
Sorry, a bad edit made that sentence unclear. The intent was to suggest that maybe we should treat men that way and see how they like it. Of course that's a joke, because in the context of our current society and its existing attitudes, that's not really possible. Misandry does exist, and of course we should repudiate all forms of prejudice whenever it surfaces, but it's rare enough that I couldn't remember the term. But as I say, I think we can trust that Rush will sound the alarm.
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:06 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, I literally don't.
Oh, ok then. What I'm asking you is whether you'd consider a game where the player kills enemies that look like Trump would be a similar situation to the one in the OP.

Quote:
You seem to be missing the fact that doing this "to be cool" is the problem in the first place.
I didn't miss it. I disagree with it.

Quote:
Yes, if I take pictures of me strangling someone that I consider my opposition it should have completely different context than pretending to strangle a friend of mine.
It's not quite the same, but no, it's not completely different. It's similar on the fundamental: pretend vs intent.

Quote:
The context of something is beside the point? Interesting take.
The reason I posted that is because I DON'T consider it to be context for this incident at all. These teens didn't threaten her. Your contention here is that now that AOC's gotten death threats no one can pretend to wish her harm, or anything of the sort, without declaring their intent to actually do so. That's nonsense.
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:08 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
They wrote plenty about their beliefs.
Just to be clear: who's "they"? Men in general or a particular set of them?

Quote:
The intent was to suggest that maybe we should treat men that way and see how they like it.
The problem is that most men actually _were_ treated that way for the longest time. Men got the right to vote in the west a short while only before women did. For thousands of years before that power was reserved to the elite, men and women, and even they had to contend with strict norms and expectations. It's a tiny minority who essentially could do anything they wanted. Most were under severed restrictions.

I'm sure we both agree that women were not treated the way we would've liked it, historically. It doesn't follow that your claim as to the source of that difference is as you characterise it.
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:32 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, ok then. What I'm asking you is whether you'd consider a game where the player kills enemies that look like Trump would be a similar situation to the one in the OP.
I would say that a video game that makes it appear you're killing Trump repeatedly would be worse than what happened here.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I didn't miss it. I disagree with it.
Well, I disagree with your disagreement.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not quite the same, but no, it's not completely different. It's similar on the fundamental: pretend vs intent.
Fundamentally we're all born so there's no difference at all in anything ever.

It's completely different. One situation has both parties agreeing, and enjoying the mock strangling. The other situation is one group of people mock strangling someone who they view as an enemy, and "enemy" getting offended.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The reason I posted that is because I DON'T consider it to be context for this incident at all. These teens didn't threaten her. Your contention here is that now that AOC's gotten death threats no one can pretend to wish her harm, or anything of the sort, without declaring their intent to actually do so. That's nonsense.
The mock strangling IS declaring their intent. How does she know these kids aren't threatening her? They certainly didn't say they weren't threatening her. They were taking actions that would be considered a threat (unless you're part of the "aw you little rascals" club).
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Old 8th August 2019, 12:35 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just to be clear: who's "they"? Men in general or a particular set of them?
You got me there -- yes, I'm assuming that what we see in the written record is characteristic of prevalent beliefs, because it perfectly explains the prevalent behaviors. What's your point? Just that I can't prove it, so neener neener?


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The problem is that most men actually _were_ treated that way for the longest time. Men got the right to vote in the west a short while only before women did. For thousands of years before that power was reserved to the elite, men and women, and even they had to contend with strict norms and expectations. It's a tiny minority who essentially could do anything they wanted. Most were under severed restrictions.

I'm sure we both agree that women were not treated the way we would've liked it, historically. It doesn't follow that your claim as to the source of that difference is as you characterise it.
I can't see any reason to continue this.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:20 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I can't see any reason to continue this.
It would be such a shame to waste all the progress that has been made over the last two pages.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:50 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I would say that a video game that makes it appear you're killing Trump repeatedly would be worse than what happened here.
Well then I can only suggest that perhaps you don't understand that aspect of human behaviour. It's quite common, and you can't draw conclusions about the player's intent from it. As I said earlier, and despite the civilians in said shooter games not representing specific people, by the same logic these games represent the player's desire to kill random people. It just doesn't add up.

Quote:
It's completely different. One situation has both parties agreeing, and enjoying the mock strangling. The other situation is one group of people mock strangling someone who they view as an enemy, and "enemy" getting offended.
Do you agree that it is a pretend action in both cases? That's a pretty basic aspect of the act, and you can't say they're completely different if they share such a fundamental characteristic.

Quote:
The mock strangling IS declaring their intent. How does she know these kids aren't threatening her?
She doesn't, but the two sentences here are not related. Her ignorance of their intentions does not inform you as to those intentions.
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Old 8th August 2019, 01:53 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You got me there -- yes, I'm assuming that what we see in the written record is characteristic of prevalent beliefs, because it perfectly explains the prevalent behaviors. What's your point? Just that I can't prove it, so neener neener?
I don't know why you say this. I asked a simple and honest question to inform my response, because if you're refering to a specific time and place that's quite a bit different than if you're talking generally.

Quote:
I can't see any reason to continue this.
Is there anything in the part you quoted that you specifically disagree with? I'm sure you're at least somewhat aware of these facts.
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Old 8th August 2019, 02:13 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well then I can only suggest that perhaps you don't understand that aspect of human behaviour. It's quite common, and you can't draw conclusions about the player's intent from it. As I said earlier, and despite the civilians in said shooter games not representing specific people, by the same logic these games represent the player's desire to kill random people. It just doesn't add up.
I can understand something and still disagree with your interpretation of it. There's a lot in this paragraph I disagree with. First, that you can't draw conclusions from it. Why would you buy a game that shoots Trump lookalikes if you enjoy him? I can then conclude that you don't like Trump, and that would be totally logical. If you like to play Wolfenstein, I can conclude that you like to kill Nazi Zombie's, and that you would do so in real life if a consequence free environment enabled you to do so.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you agree that it is a pretend action in both cases? That's a pretty basic aspect of the act, and you can't say they're completely different if they share such a fundamental characteristic.
Yes, I can though, because of how context works. If you see someone punch someone else in the face, and you get upset and ask, "What is going on here?!" Your reaction to the person saying, "If he doesn't get punched in the face every 10 minutes he dies". Might be completely and entirely different than if the person said, "This guy is white, **** him." They share the same characteristic (getting punched in the face) but they are completely different in context...to me anyway.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
She doesn't, but the two sentences here are not related. Her ignorance of their intentions does not inform you as to those intentions.
So under no circumstances can she draw conclusions based off of her experiences with these people? They didn't state any intentions, and you seem to be making conclusions without knowing their intentions without issue. What if they really do want to strangle her? They certainly haven't said they don't.
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Old 8th August 2019, 05:42 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I can understand something and still disagree with your interpretation of it.
Indeed but you seem to be unaware of this very common aspect of human behaviour. That puzzles me but I can't really explain it in more detail.

Quote:
Why would you buy a game that shoots Trump lookalikes if you enjoy him?
For fun? I used to shoot Nazis and demons in Wolfensetin and Doom. Doesn't mean going around and shooting stuff sounds like a good idea to me. What I pretend to do in fiction and games has little to no relation to what I'd like to do in real life. Do you know that the most common sexual fantasy amongst women is the rape fantasy? I wager that most women don't actually want to get raped; but that's fantasy for you: it allows you to explore stuff you wouldn't do in real life at no risk.

Quote:
I can then conclude that you don't like Trump, and that would be totally logical.
It's reasonable, but not necessarily true.

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If you like to play Wolfenstein, I can conclude that you like to kill Nazi Zombie's, and that you would do so in real life if a consequence free environment enabled you to do so.
First, see above for my discussion on this. Second, you went from concluding from shooting Trump in a game that one doesn't like Trump, to concluding from shooting Nazis that one wants to shoot Nazis. I'm curious as to why the two conclusions, drawn from the exact same action, are different.

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Yes, I can though, because of how context works.
Context does not change fundamental characteristics. That's what "fundamental" means.

Quote:
So under no circumstances can she draw conclusions based off of her experiences with these people?
No, what I said is that YOU cannot draw conclusions of THEIR intent based on HER apprehensions. The three simply do not connect. I fully understand that, in her situation, she might find the event somewhat threatening. What I'm saying is that you, personally, cannot use her state of mind to determine theirs.

Is that clearer?
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Old 8th August 2019, 07:04 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
False equivalence. Virtual worlds that you log in and out of are not the same as the real one.
...until they are.

Doom
Quote:
The game again sparked controversy throughout a period of school shootings in the United States when it was found that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, who committed the Columbine High School massacre on April 20, 1999, were avid players of the game. While planning for the massacre, Harris said in his journal that the killing would be "like playing Doom", and "it'll be like the LA riots, the Oklahoma bombing, World War II, Vietnam, Duke Nukem and Doom all mixed together", and that his shotgun was "straight out of the game".

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey
It seems a bit hypocritical that Republican politicians can blame "culture" in the form of video games, music, and television when extremely bad things like spree murders happen, yet insist that the actual admitted, documented behavior of their supporters doesn't signify anything and is meaningless and consequence-free. If I shoot an NPC in a video game I'm participating in a culture of violence. If I strangle a cardboard cutout of an actual politician it's meaningless.
I agree. What worse, the "culture" in violent video games is their culture.

Doom was recently ported to my favorite retro computer, so I gave it a go. It was just as I remembered - steeped in machismo, gun fetish and mindless violence against the other, while being realistic enough that you almost forget it's a game. I didn't play for long because constantly killing things is not my idea of fun, and I don't appreciate being forced into that mindset.

Adults may think realistically violent computer games are just a bit of harmless fun, but for children and teenagers they are more than that. The video games themselves may not be a culture, but what's in them is. And while the games may only be 'simulations', they are just as effective at molding behavior as 'real' training. People may think they can separate fantasy from reality, but the brain doesn't work that way. Things you read about in books, watch in movies or on TV, or do in video games do affect how you think. For a small number of vulnerable individuals that could be enough to push them over the edge.

Ditto for assaulting cardboard cutouts. It may seem like harmless fun, but the thoughts behind it may not be. In the right circumstances those thoughts could easily spill over into actions. I fear that the politically motivated violence we have seen so far is just the beginning.
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Old 8th August 2019, 09:44 PM   #152
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The boys' behavior would have been no big deal IF they hadn't tweeted it. They issue is the public display of sexual aggression whilst seemingly supporting a Republican Senator - this is simply not a private issue. It is intended to send a message of support for someone against someone in an inappropriate manner in any case, but doubly so in the context of Congress, not Housewife of....

Video games in this contest would only matter if someone was showing his Trump-Kill game on Twitch.
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Old 9th August 2019, 02:30 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The boys' behavior would have been no big deal IF they hadn't tweeted it.
Yeah that crosses over into "don't be a dick" category.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:08 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
For fun? I used to shoot Nazis and demons in Wolfensetin and Doom. Doesn't mean going around and shooting stuff sounds like a good idea to me. What I pretend to do in fiction and games has little to no relation to what I'd like to do in real life. Do you know that the most common sexual fantasy amongst women is the rape fantasy? I wager that most women don't actually want to get raped; but that's fantasy for you: it allows you to explore stuff you wouldn't do in real life at no risk.
To be honest, I'm not even sure how the **** we got here. We were talking about choking a cardboard cutout and now we drifted into video games as if the two are at all related. I give though, this conversation is just nonsensical to me now.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
First, see above for my discussion on this. Second, you went from concluding from shooting Trump in a game that one doesn't like Trump, to concluding from shooting Nazis that one wants to shoot Nazis. I'm curious as to why the two conclusions, drawn from the exact same action, are different.
Probably because speaking of causing harm to a POTUS comes with certain possible complications that I really don't feel like getting into. Just uttering the words is something I don't really want to do deal with. Also, it was Nazi Zombies.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Context does not change fundamental characteristics. That's what "fundamental" means.
Duly noted.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, what I said is that YOU cannot draw conclusions of THEIR intent based on HER apprehensions. The three simply do not connect. I fully understand that, in her situation, she might find the event somewhat threatening. What I'm saying is that you, personally, cannot use her state of mind to determine theirs.

Is that clearer?
Got it.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
*snipped for brevity*
I find most of this to be absolute and total ********. For no other reason than there has been one shooting that involved an MLG player (people that play for a living), and that was during a Madden convention. I've played video games for 30 years of all genres. Everything from Call of Duty to Final Fantasy. I've never shot anyone or gone on epic quests in medieval times.

No where in your statement did it say the Columbine shooters were led there by Doom. Doom uses a sawed off double barrel shotgun, they aren't uncommon.
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:26 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
To be honest, I'm not even sure how the **** we got here.
Ok I am: I brought up video games as a parallel, because as far as I'm concerned, unless you can establish a reasonable expectation that a person might act on the fantasy, fiction remains fiction. People have been claiming, and are currently claiming in the wake of the recent shootings, that video games train people to kill. But just because you're engaging in an act, whether it's playing a video game or pretending to strangle someone -- regardless of whether you like that person -- is no indication of your intentions.

I get that you disagree, but I don't know how we'd from here go on to resolve our difference of opinion on the matter. Any ideas?
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Old 9th August 2019, 07:45 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I get that you disagree, but I don't know how we'd from here go on to resolve our difference of opinion on the matter. Any ideas?
Alcohol?
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Old 9th August 2019, 08:21 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Alcohol?
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Old 9th August 2019, 10:07 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
unless you can establish a reasonable expectation that a person might act on the fantasy, fiction remains fiction.
I think that's what makes it a bad comparison, though. When playing a video game, you're usually playing as a character, in a made up scenario, and killing fictional characters with no agency, all through the disconnect of doing it through a screen and with a controller. Those kids were strangling an effigy of a real person, in real life, and doing it as themselves. To me, those two scenarios are so completely different, they pretty much have no relation to one another (unless the video game example involves directly simulating killing a real person, like that JFK assassination game everyone thought was in poor taste).

To me, those teens' actions are much more comparable to something like a disgruntled ex-husband going to a gun range and shooting pictures of the ex-wife he hates. It's a symbolic act of violence directed at a person. In the case of the ex-husband, I think most people would find the act disturbing and potentially an indication of further violence. With the teens, (as others have argued), the behavior is a similar indication of how figures on the right are normalizing violence towards their opponents, and I think that's something worth examining due to the recent uptick in right wing terrorism. Obviously, you view it as harmless fun that doesn't mean anything, but not everyone sees a display like that is being fictional in the way a video game is.

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Old 9th August 2019, 11:00 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
I think that's what makes it a bad comparison, though. When playing a video game, you're usually playing as a character, in a made up scenario, and killing fictional characters with no agency, all through the disconnect of doing it through a screen and with a controller. Those kids were strangling an effigy of a real person, in real life, and doing it as themselves.
No, I really think that's a distinction without a difference. It changes nothing of the fact that they were pretending to do something to an inanimate object that represents someone. That's a couple of steps removed from doing the actual thing, same as the video game. The issue of playing a character and having a controller is irrelevant to intent. The only question is whether they can reasonably be expected to translate this pretend action into real life.

Quote:
To me, those two scenarios are so completely different, they pretty much have no relation to one another
Well, that's the problem with analogies, right? They're intended to draw a parallel between the fundamentals of two things, but the other person will always nitpick details that make them different. Of course they're different, otherwise I wouldn't have made an analogy.

Quote:
To me, those teens' actions are much more comparable to something like a disgruntled ex-husband going to a gun range and shooting pictures of the ex-wife he hates. It's a symbolic act of violence directed at a person. In the case of the ex-husband, I think most people would find the act disturbing and potentially an indication of further violence.
If I'm angry at someone and I start hitting a punching bag while imagining that someone does that mean I'm one step removed from punching them? No, I don't think so.
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Old 9th August 2019, 11:04 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, I really think that's a distinction without a difference. It changes nothing of the fact that they were pretending to do something to an inanimate object that represents someone. That's a couple of steps removed from doing the actual thing, same as the video game. The issue of playing a character and having a controller is irrelevant to intent. The only question is whether they can reasonably be expected to translate this pretend action into real life.



Well, that's the problem with analogies, right? They're intended to draw a parallel between the fundamentals of two things, but the other person will always nitpick details that make them different. Of course they're different, otherwise I wouldn't have made an analogy.



If I'm angry at someone and I start hitting a punching bag while imagining that someone does that mean I'm one step removed from punching them? No, I don't think so.
If you tape a photo of that person to the punching bag you're a step closer to punching them than you were before adding the photo, though.
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