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Old 4th May 2014, 09:49 AM   #401
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Right. So if people knowing about the spiritual plane is harmful to them because it may restrict their behaviour, then your telling people about the spiritual plane can be harmful to them if they believe you and therefore limit their behaviour.

If what you've said is true about spiritual progression, then the whole of existence would be a much better place if everybody was an atheist who didn't believe in life after death. That would allow people to progress further and faster.
The spirit world do try to teach us, but only at a pace we are capable of understanding. To give absolute proof of psychic powers to the world would put power in the hands of unevolved people that would use it entirely for their own ends. But the spirit world does teach at its own pace from behind
the scenes. I recommend the book, "The teachings of Silver Birch".

http://www.angelfire.com/ok/SilverBirch/Tcon.html
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 4th May 2014, 09:59 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do try to teach us, but only at a pace we are capable of understanding. To give absolute proof of psychic powers to the world would put power in the hands of unevolved people that would use it entirely for their own ends. But the spirit world does teach at its own pace from behind
the scenes. I recommend the book, "The teachings of Silver Birch".

http://www.angelfire.com/ok/SilverBirch/Tcon.html
.
And that is does.
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Old 4th May 2014, 10:35 AM   #403
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Another reminder about memory: How Recalling Memories Alters Them
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Old 4th May 2014, 01:52 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Sorry, Scorpion.

There's a pretty derogatory term floating around out there: Word Salad*.

I hesitate to use it, but it's the overall impression I get from your response.

"Formless bubble of divine energy" is quite devoid of meaning, with all it's major concepts undefined. As is "astral plane", "higher planes of existence", "incarnations".

Charring Cross exists in the real world in a manner that "astral plane" clearly does not. Regardless of what you've "heard it said". If you do not have the critical thinking tools to know the difference, you're in the right place. But you must open your mind to what people are saying here, not just repeating what others have told you.

If we're reduced to responding to every little bit of woo that you've heard said, then the conversation has become trivially uninteresting. Millions of sites exist to read about the kind of things you're positing here, with zero foundation. That's where I would be if I was interested in that sort if thing. Which, unless and until said positions have something evidential to support them, I'm not.

I will probably continue to monitor this thread for anything interesting, but I honestly have little hope for that.

Good luck with your belief system.


*I think this link exemplifies how Word Salad can seem superficially meaningful:
http://www.wisdomofchopra.com
Seconded.

Scorpion, I do hope you rread Fast DEddie B's post here; he's right!
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Old 4th May 2014, 02:44 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do try to teach us, but only at a pace we are capable of understanding. To give absolute proof of psychic powers to the world would put power in the hands of unevolved people that would use it entirely for their own ends. But the spirit world does teach at its own pace from behind
the scenes. I recommend the book, "The teachings of Silver Birch".

http://www.angelfire.com/ok/SilverBirch/Tcon.html
What unevolved people could use the power? I thought you had to be evolved in order to have the power. If everyone could have the power even if they were unevolved, why don't they? Even if there's no actual proof, it must be obvious that something's going on. If it's not obvious and it's no different than dumb luck, then why would you believe that it's anything other than dumb luck?

Ward
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Old 4th May 2014, 05:31 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
According to the theories I have heard at trance lectures we have a spirit body that is more refined than the physical body. But sex is neutral.
Our incarnations are in separate partitions of the soul body and we cannot go back to our past body when we reincarnate. So if we die as a baby that baby has to grow up in the spirit world. But we do remember all our past lives when we reach a state of enlightenment at the end of our cycle of incarnations.
If gender is neutral then the psychic couldn't have known it was your brother, and if gender is neutral how would one grow up?

Thus bunk is very internally inconsistent.
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Old 4th May 2014, 05:35 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have doubted everything in recent years, but the more I remember of what I have experienced, the more I come to feel that ESP does exist.
So on one side we have all of known science, and on the other you have your memory. And you believe the second option. Doesn't that seem a little egotistical?
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Old 4th May 2014, 05:44 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do try to teach us, but only at a pace we are capable of understanding. To give absolute proof of psychic powers to the world would put power in the hands of unevolved people that would use it entirely for their own ends. But the spirit world does teach at its own pace from behind
the scenes. I recommend the book, "The teachings of Silver Birch".

http://www.angelfire.com/ok/SilverBirch/Tcon.html
But you have said your experiences have given you proof and so do many others. So this proof is okay for folks like yourself but not us lesser creatures. Again seems very egotistical.
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Old 4th May 2014, 09:19 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As I have said, we are incarnate for experience sake, and we are not intended to know for sure there is a God or a spirit world. Because it would take away our freedom to act as we see fit. We would be afraid to do wrong with God looking over our shoulders so we would be inhibited all our lives.
We are meant to learn by trial and error, action and reaction,cause and effect, which creates karmic consequences.
So your excuse is that all things spiritual are unfalsifiable.

As such, your claims to the "truth" of these matters are irrelevant to the rational world.
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Old 4th May 2014, 10:23 PM   #410
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Old 5th May 2014, 10:05 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If what you've said is true about spiritual progression, then the whole of existence would be a much better place if everybody was an atheist who didn't believe in life after death. That would allow people to progress further and faster.
A trenchant observation!
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Old 6th May 2014, 06:46 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
So on one side we have all of known science, and on the other you have your memory. And you believe the second option. Doesn't that seem a little egotistical?
NO! it is the sum of my experience, and I have now decided to try and open my third eye, so as to see for myself if there is a spirit world.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 6th May 2014, 06:50 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do try to teach us, but only at a pace we are capable of understanding. To give absolute proof of psychic powers to the world would put power in the hands of unevolved people that would use it entirely for their own ends.

Why is this bad?
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Old 6th May 2014, 07:02 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Why is this bad?
There is spiritual development, and there is psychic development. Ideally they should proceed together so that there is a balance. If psychic development gets ahead of spiritual development then we would end up in a world of warlocks and witches using their powers to enslave the rest of us.
There are already people like David Morehouse, who claim to have been recruited by the CIA for paranormal espionage. We do not need more of that.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 6th May 2014, 07:06 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
NO! it is the sum of my experience
If you've ever been to a magic show, you'll know how misleading uncritical experience can be when supplied with intent to deceive...

Quote:
I have now decided to try and open my third eye, so as to see for myself if there is a spirit world.
So you believe all this psychic medium business, but you don't know if there really is a spirit world? Isn't that a little cart-before-horse? aren't psychics and mediums supposed to get their vague names "beginning with an 'M' like Mark, or it could be an 'N' or perhaps an 'F' ...Fred?", from the spirit world? Or are you preparing to admit you may have been mistaken all this time?

I'm curious to know more about this 'third eye' - it's clearly a metaphorical eye, because there is no physiological third eye, nor any anatomical vestige of anything similar. So do tell, what is it, how does it work, and how do you intend to 'open' it?
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Old 6th May 2014, 07:12 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is spiritual development, and there is psychic development. Ideally they should proceed together so that there is a balance. If psychic development gets ahead of spiritual development then we would end up in a world of warlocks and witches using their powers to enslave the rest of us.
There are already people like David Morehouse, who claim to have been recruited by the CIA for paranormal espionage. We do not need more of that.

How do you know this would happen? Has it ever been done? Do you have any evidence that David Morehouse is actually capable of paranormal espionage?

There is currently plenty of power imbalances in the world, and for the most part, society manages to restrain the vast majority of abuses. Why do you think a paranormal imbalance would be any different?

To paraphrase one of my favorite fantasy authors, "No matter how powerful the wizard is, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."
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Old 6th May 2014, 07:12 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There are already people like David Morehouse, who claim to have been recruited by the CIA for paranormal espionage. We do not need more of that.
You really need to distinguish between claims and reality. US authorities did run a program with people who claimed remove viewing abilities, but abandoned it when they turned out to be useless. There won't be any more of that, because it doesn't work. If it did, the world would be a different place and we'd have found Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 weeks ago.
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Old 6th May 2014, 07:13 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is spiritual development, and there is psychic development. Ideally they should proceed together so that there is a balance. If psychic development gets ahead of spiritual development then we would end up in a world of warlocks and witches using their powers to enslave the rest of us.
C'mon. Witches and warlocks not necessary. Just megalomaniacs that talk nice.
Quote:
There are already people like David Morehouse, who claim to have been recruited by the CIA for paranormal espionage. We do not need more of that.
Yes, the world doesn't need more ******** artists, but unfortunately, they're not going anywhere anytime soon.
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Old 6th May 2014, 07:26 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
If you've ever been to a magic show, you'll know how misleading uncritical experience can be when supplied with intent to deceive...


So you believe all this psychic medium business, but you don't know if there really is a spirit world? Isn't that a little cart-before-horse? aren't psychics and mediums supposed to get their vague names "beginning with an 'M' like Mark, or it could be an 'N' or perhaps an 'F' ...Fred?", from the spirit world? Or are you preparing to admit you may have been mistaken all this time?

I'm curious to know more about this 'third eye' - it's clearly a metaphorical eye, because there is no physiological third eye, nor any anatomical vestige of anything similar. So do tell, what is it, how does it work, and how do you intend to 'open' it?
As I have said, I was given the exact name of a dead baby brother I did not even know I had. So there was nothing vague about that.

I was taught how to open the third eye (brow chakra) by the late spiritualist medium, Ursula Roberts. Firstly you start with a prayer, (to raise your vibrations to a higher plane) The lords prayer will do. Then you concentrate on trying to see a spot of light in front of you. When you get to see a spot of light you try to expand it out wards. Think of opening a flower in your forehead. When you have finished, make an equal amount of effort trying to close it again as you do not want to walk around with it open to the spirit world. That could be disturbing.

If it worked for her it may work for anyone, and I am going to persevere at it for a while to see if I can confirm the existence of the spirit world for myself.
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Old 6th May 2014, 07:59 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As I have said, I was given the exact name of a dead baby brother I did not even know I had. So there was nothing vague about that.

I was taught how to open the third eye (brow chakra) by the late spiritualist medium, Ursula Roberts. Firstly you start with a prayer, (to raise your vibrations to a higher plane) The lords prayer will do. Then you concentrate on trying to see a spot of light in front of you. When you get to see a spot of light you try to expand it out wards. Think of opening a flower in your forehead. When you have finished, make an equal amount of effort trying to close it again as you do not want to walk around with it open to the spirit world. That could be disturbing.

If it worked for her it may work for anyone, and I am going to persevere at it for a while to see if I can confirm the existence of the spirit world for myself.
True, walking around with a hole in your head with a flower growing out of it would be a disturbing sight.
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Old 6th May 2014, 08:17 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
NO! it is the sum of my experience, and I have now decided to try and open my third eye, so as to see for myself if there is a spirit world.
There are ways to open the third eye. I prefer to pinch it. Some people use needles. Others like to use Oxyclean and let it heal on it's own.
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Old 6th May 2014, 08:22 AM   #422
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Old 6th May 2014, 08:26 AM   #423
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Scorpion, is this third eye spiritual?
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Old 6th May 2014, 08:40 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Scorpion, is this third eye spiritual?
The third eye, the brow chakra, is just a psychic energy channel in the etheric body. It cannot be spiritual or unspiritual, just functional.
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Old 6th May 2014, 08:50 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
... I have now decided to try and open my third eye, so as to see for myself if there is a spirit world.
And how will you be able to communicate effectively the result of that 'seeing with your 'third eye'?

Which brings me back to my earlier, as yet unanswered question:
Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Scorpion, on page 8 I asked you:
Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
What do you hope to communicate with such anecdotes?
Would you be so kind as to explain this please?
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Old 6th May 2014, 08:57 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The third eye, the brow chakra, is just a psychic energy channel in the etheric body. It cannot be spiritual or unspiritual, just functional.
Nor, apparently, can it be shown to exist.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:00 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The third eye, the brow chakra, is just a psychic energy channel in the etheric body. It cannot be spiritual or unspiritual, just functional.
That's what I meant by word salad.

third eye - not established
brow chakra - not established
psychic energy channel - not established
etheric body - not established

Bunch of terms jumbled together, with no real meaning discernible.



"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."

Carl Sagan


Back to lurk mode.

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Old 6th May 2014, 09:09 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As I have said, I was given the exact name of a dead baby brother I did not even know I had. So there was nothing vague about that.
You didn't explain how you can believe in psychics and mediums yet be uncertain that the spirit world exists.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:12 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
And how will you be able to communicate effectively the result of that 'seeing with your 'third eye'?
I don't know, maybe I will be able to see the number telepathically being transmitted by Michael H on his telepathy test thread. But I doubt it.



Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post

Which brings me back to my earlier, as yet unanswered question:
Maybe the spirit world wants me to preach their teachings on the Internet, which is why they gave me five numbers on the lottery in 1998, to buy my first decent computer. Actually I have used it to try and undermine Islam by criticizing the quran since 9/11. I have done this on a number of other forums.
Mostly using the name Dajjal. I read the quran after 9/11 and decided it was a terrible indictment of God made up by Muhammad to control people. I want to free the minds of Muslims from fear of Allah by preaching spiritualism to them. It is only recently I have come here to debate with atheists.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:13 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
You didn't explain how you can believe in psychics and mediums yet be uncertain that the spirit world exists.
I did say I am no longer absolutely sure of anything. But the more I think about it the more it comes down on the side that some mediums are genuine, and there probably is a spirit world.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:18 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
That's what I meant by word salad.

third eye - not established
brow chakra - not established
psychic energy channel - not established
etheric body - not established

Bunch of terms jumbled together, with no real meaning discernible.
Its not word salad, its terms well known to theosophists and spiritualists.

I said on an early post on this thread, that I used to have a feeling like fire flowing through my chakras, which is the way I came to know about them. It turned out to be caused by my etheric body being made loose due to mental stress I had suffered. Spiritual healing (which I could often feel as energy flowing through me) eventually cured the problem.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:24 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Nor, apparently, can it be shown to exist.
If you go to the British museum and look at old statues of Buddha, you will see on some of them, there are stone flowers on the brow, and the palms of the hands of some of them. The chakras are ancient knowledge, and there are people today who preach their existence, and use them for healing. One of them is Barbara Anne Brennan. See the link. Her book "hands of light", can be found on the Internet as a pdf file.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Brennan



There are supposed to be 7 main chakras, and 21 minor chakras. There is one in the palm of each hand, and one in the soles of each foot, and one in each side of the temples. I used to channel healing energy through them to heal myself, and I could feel the energy building up.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 6th May 2014 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:31 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know, maybe I will be able to see the number telepathically being transmitted by Michael H on his telepathy test thread. But I doubt it.
...
So, no means of effectively communicating the result of that 'seeing with your 'third eye'. I'm not surprised.


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
...
Maybe the spirit world wants me to preach their teachings on the Internet, which is why they gave me five numbers on the lottery in 1998, to buy my first decent computer. Actually I have used it to try and undermine Islam by criticizing the quran since 9/11. I have done this on a number of other forums.
Mostly using the name Dajjal. I read the quran after 9/11 and decided it was a terrible indictment of God made up by Muhammad to control people. I want to free the minds of Muslims from fear of Allah by preaching spiritualism to them. It is only recently I have come here to debate with atheists.
It's not the 'spirit world' wanting you to do any 'teaching' or preaching, it's you.
And you have to do this empty handed .....

So you want to remove people's (muslims) belief and insert another unsupported irrational belief you think is better, in it's place.
That's not very nice of you.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:33 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I did say I am no longer absolutely sure of anything. But the more I think about it the more it comes down on the side that some mediums are genuine, and there probably is a spirit world.
You did say something like that, but you don't appear to act accordingly.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:37 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
.. I have used it to try and undermine Islam by criticizing the quran since 9/11. I have done this on a number of other forums.
Mostly using the name Dajjal. I read the quran after 9/11 and decided it was a terrible indictment of God made up by Muhammad to control people. I want to free the minds of Muslims from fear of Allah by preaching spiritualism to them. ...
.
I see your problem there. Muslims do not "fear" Allah. They embrace him with their hearts and souls and fingers on the triggers on the bombs.
I expect your efforts there are as ineffectual as they are here.
Whyncha concentrate on emphasizing the sin of murder/suicide on those fora?
.
Quote:
It is only recently I have come here to debate with atheists.
.
Not doing that very well.
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:42 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post

So you want to remove people's (muslims) belief and insert another unsupported irrational belief you think is better, in it's place.
That's not very nice of you.
The quran contains many terrible verses of what God will do to people, burning them in eternal fire and pouring boiling liquids on them that will burn their insides as well as their skins. I am trying to do Muslims a favour and liberate them from the fear of such a God by literary criticism of the quran.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 6th May 2014, 09:46 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.

Not doing that very well.
I learn as I go along. I am learning all your views, much of which I knew nothing about until I came here. I got better at criticizing the quran over the years, I can get better at debating with atheists too.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 6th May 2014, 10:03 AM   #438
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If the third eye is psychic, and psychic powers are related to the spiritual plane, then is the third eye not also related to the spiritual?
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Old 6th May 2014, 10:05 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The quran contains many terrible verses of what God will do to people, burning them in eternal fire and pouring boiling liquids on them that will burn their insides as well as their skins. I am trying to do Muslims a favour and liberate them from the fear of such a God by literary criticism of the quran.
You mean, as you said, by preaching spiritualism to them. Or in other words, offering them lots of words empty handed.
You want muslims to abandon their belief for your irrational belief, just because you say it's better.

As I said, not very nice of you.
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Old 6th May 2014, 10:09 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I learn as I go along. I am learning all your views, much of which I knew nothing about until I came here. I got better at criticizing the quran over the years, I can get better at debating with atheists too.
Our view (or at least my view) is that you failed to substantiate any of your claims.
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