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Old 16th May 2014, 09:39 AM   #1
Red Baron Farms
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Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
RBF has been making a slow crawl from Holistic grazing to rest rotation to modern land management. It should be noted that these three terms are not synonymous and are not actually interchangeable.
You are right. They are not completely interchangeable. Rest Rotation is a grazing system. It resembles HMPG only in the biophysical and only in the narrow range of biophysical that is found in Western North American rangelands receiving on average 5-15 inches of annual rainfall per year and being grazed by cattle. But HMPG involves much more than that. It is a management system whose principles can be applied world wide on any continent (except Antarctica) and in any brittle to non-brittle rangeland, with any species of grazer, by anyone, at any technology level or education level, and under a wide range of cultural and social systems, for a wide ranging set of goals that may or may not include actually eating livestock. So HMPG is far more advanced and flexible than RRG.

But since we are talking about The Western USA and Rangeland averaging 5 inches per year at the Bunker hill allotment that is being grazed by cattle, the two systems do overlap in this case.
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Old 16th May 2014, 11:52 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
You are right. They are not completely interchangeable. Rest Rotation is a grazing system. It resembles HMPG only in the biophysical and only in the narrow range of biophysical that is found in Western North American rangelands receiving on average 5-15 inches of annual rainfall per year and being grazed by cattle. But HMPG involves much more than that. It is a management system whose principles can be applied world wide on any continent (except Antarctica) and in any brittle to non-brittle rangeland, with any species of grazer, by anyone, at any technology level or education level, and under a wide range of cultural and social systems, for a wide ranging set of goals that may or may not include actually eating livestock. So HMPG is far more advanced and flexible than RRG.

But since we are talking about The Western USA and Rangeland averaging 5 inches per year at the Bunker hill allotment that is being grazed by cattle, the two systems do overlap in this case.
My point was that as your arguments have been shot down one by one you have slowly moved away from your initial claim that the BLM should have offered HM. Start a thread on HM if that's what you want to talk about.
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Old 16th May 2014, 01:24 PM   #3
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WOW it's a revolt! Maybe you should join your own militia. I hear Bundy is recruiting. He seems well versed at throwing fits when people ignore his concerns. Maybe you could learn a few things from him! Or better yet maybe you could teach him even better?

BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post. HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!
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Old 16th May 2014, 01:36 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
WOW it's a revolt! Maybe you should join your own militia. I hear Bundy is recruiting. He seems well versed at throwing fits when people ignore his concerns. Maybe you could learn a few things from him! Or better yet maybe you could teach him even better?

BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post. HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!
Jaysus. Are you this deliberately obtuse in person, too?

Run on down to Bunkerville. Cliven needs you.
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Old 16th May 2014, 01:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
BTW I am not here to discuss HM
BWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Pull the other one.

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post.
For about 30 pages AFTER it became clear your pet agriculture theories were neither relevant nor interesting.
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Old 16th May 2014, 03:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post

BTW I am not here to discuss HM...
Well, you've done a damn fine of a job not discussing it.



Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post

HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!
Or, and I know this idea is really far-fetched, Bundy could have paid his fees for the last 20 years.

Nah, that's just silly.
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Old 16th May 2014, 04:33 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
WOW it's a revolt! Maybe you should join your own militia. I hear Bundy is recruiting. He seems well versed at throwing fits when people ignore his concerns. Maybe you could learn a few things from him! Or better yet maybe you could teach him even better?

BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post. HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!
Hold your horses or cattle buddy! Who posted about HM first? Me or you?

You have never once mentioned any other option for resolving this other than HM, rest rotation, and now modern land management practices. It all here in this thread, plain for everyone to see.
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Old 16th May 2014, 06:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
For about 30 pages AFTER it became clear your pet agriculture theories were neither relevant nor interesting.
Actually the only reason it isn't interesting to you and doesn't seem relevant is because you are approaching this whole issue from a win/lose paradigm. You are not interested in conflict resolution, only screw you Bundy! HM was actually developed originally for this purpose of conflict resolution of these types of "range wars". Originally in Africa where "drum beating natives" were being driven off their parks, instead of cowboy ranchers being driven from the public rangeland, but the principles parallel each other.

The thing about it is this though. HM has already been used successfully in the role of conflict resolution here in the US facing the same issues as found in Nevada. But apparently the Nevada BLM didn't get that memo.

Here is a case study from Texas: The Planlt Texas Story : Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study

Same fight for the same reasons but a completely different outcome. Still not too late to resolve this conflict the same way in my opinion.
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Old 16th May 2014, 06:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Actually the only reason it isn't interesting to you and doesn't seem relevant is because you are approaching this whole issue from a win/lose paradigm. You are not interested in conflict resolution, only screw you Bundy! HM was actually developed originally for this purpose of conflict resolution of these types of "range wars". Originally in Africa where "drum beating natives" were being driven off their parks, instead of cowboy ranchers being driven from the public rangeland, but the principles parallel each other.

The thing about it is this though. HM has already been used successfully in the role of conflict resolution here in the US facing the same issues as found in Nevada. But apparently the Nevada BLM didn't get that memo.

Here is a case study from Texas: The Planlt Texas Story : Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study

Same fight for the same reasons but a completely different outcome. Still not too late to resolve this conflict the same way in my opinion.
But this is all fantasy. Land management had nothing to do with this case. You have repeatedly averred that it started over a disagreement in how to manage the herd and the resources. There is ZERO evidence of that. As evidence, all we have available are the filings and court records and Bundy's own statements. None of those point to any sort of dispute over the management of the land or what system of grazing to use. This is all just part of your monomania.

Proposing they "settle the dispute" with proper land management would require that we all turn Christian and forgive him his trespasses (pun intended). The miscreant broke the law for twenty years. He stole from the people who own/manage the land (in the name of We, The People). He stole from taxpayers who are footing the bill for his freeloading. Your proposal is like forgiving a ponzi scheme operator because the banking system and SEC need to be reformed. They are not necessarily related. Maybe banking and the stock market should be addressed/reformed. But that doesn't give Bernie M a free pass to rip off hundreds of millions of dollars.
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Old 17th May 2014, 05:56 PM   #10
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Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.
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Old 17th May 2014, 07:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.
In my defense.... I was culled by the BLM (mods) in perhaps the laziest split in moderation history. There are nine pages of HM nonsense in the Cliven thread, and they just chose one of the latest posts (with no real statements as to what exactly is meant by Holistic Management nor any of the perhaps dubious studies and links). As "Science" threads go, this has to be just plain confusing to the science and math nerds who frequent this sub-forum. There's no there, there.

For anyone who actually cares about the topic, the meat of the discussion on Holistic Management is still in the Cliven Bundy thread.

ETA: I'm not one of those interested parties. I followed the debate because it was clogging up the thread that I was interested in. My post above was in yet another effort to get the "OP" to address the issues of that thread and not a made-up correlation.
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Old 20th May 2014, 08:45 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.
Approximately 40% of the land surface of planet earth is under agricultural management.

Farming Claims Almost Half Earth's Land, New Maps Show

40% of the land surface is no minor amount, especially since most of the rest is mountains like the Himalayas, deserts like the Sahara, or other types of land not really suitable for agriculture. A pretty good portion of that land is what is termed "brittle" though. Land like that has low humidity and sporadic seasonal rainfall. Without irrigation its usefulness for agriculture is limited to grazing. However most grazing systems used today are an extension of the models developed in Europe, then supplemented by corn and soy etc... which is grown primarily in more arable land, then fed to livestock in CAFOs. I feel this model we have gotten ourselves stuck into is HUGELY damaging to the environment. The arid savanna is in decline, but the tall grass prairie is completely gone. It's bad for everything. There really isn't anything more destructive to the environment in the US than agriculture. Here is a pretty good brief history and analysis of partly why that is: NATURAL RESOURCES
CORNELL COOPERATIVE EXTENSION

Modern Agriculture: Its Effects on the Environment


Of course the subject is more complex than that. But it is a good starting point.

Not to be totally pessimistic about the whole thing, and realizing we all must eat, build houses, wear clothes, etc.... I do have VERY strong feelings that it is imperative we completely overhaul agriculture with regenerative models instead of the destructive models primarily used today. Nature can regenerate, but since we have destroyed the natural balance on 40% of the land worldwide, and we still need ever increasing food and fiber throughout this process of badly needed regeneration, that leaves only one option. We have to use biomimicry to tap into nature's regenerative and self healing characteristics in our agricultural models.

In simplified terms what I am saying is that we both can and must use agriculture to heal the land. The old ideas of using up the land with agriculture, then letting it go fallow till it recovers will no longer work. There isn't enough land and there are too many people. So what I consider "good land management" is any management system that regenerates the land and the wildlife and ecology at the same time as it produces food and fiber for our growing population. In my opinion it's really the only option we have left, short of killing off major %'s of population in wars, famines and plagues.

ETA: There is really nothing particularly special about Savory's holistic managed planned grazing, except that it is one of many new models of regenerative agriculture, and it is proven to work on land in brittle environments formerly thought to be impossible to regenerate and be useful for agriculture at the same time.
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Old 20th May 2014, 09:02 AM   #13
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Well if we're dishing on Allan Savory, there's a prior thread for that:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=257348
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Old 20th May 2014, 09:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Well if we're dishing on Allan Savory, there's a prior thread for that:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=257348
Yes I know that is there. I have even posted on that thread. But apparently the subject can't be mentioned in its political context without offending some people, so they split it from a political thread and put it here.
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Old 20th May 2014, 09:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Yes I know that is there. I have even posted on that thread. But apparently the subject can't be mentioned in its political context without offending some people, so they split it from a political thread and put it here.
You're confusing the Bundy thread with one titled "Allan Savory: Holistic Grazing Management and Carbon Sequestration"
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Old 20th May 2014, 09:54 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
You're confusing the Bundy thread with one titled "Allan Savory: Holistic Grazing Management and Carbon Sequestration"
No. Not confused in the least, but apparently you are, since you just repeated The Shrike's post #13


ETA Just to clarify, since you seem confused, I posted on the scientific thread here in the science forum already. I also posted in the political forum as well. Since Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution. But the idiots in the political forum want no conflict resolution discussion, they prefer a shootout. They became highly offended that I suggested a resolution could be negotiated that didn't involved armed use of force. So they split it off and placed here in the science forum devoid of any politics. Now that it is here, please don't mention anything political, or it will be off topic. And don't mention only Savory or it will be merged, and don't do any actual critical thinking too deeply, or you will come up with a conspiracy theory and it will be moved to that forum. And since there is no conspiracy, it won't last there either. It simply is not proper to think outside the box when almost everyone else is inside the box.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:20 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
No. Not confused in the least, but apparently you are, since you just repeated The Shrike's post #13


ETA Just to clarify, since you seem confused, I posted on the scientific thread here in the science forum already. I also posted in the political forum as well. Since Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution. But the idiots in the political forum want no conflict resolution discussion, they prefer a shootout. They became highly offended that I suggested a resolution could be negotiated that didn't involved armed use of force. So they split it off and placed here in the science forum devoid of any politics. Now that it is here, please don't mention anything political, or it will be off topic. And don't mention only Savory or it will be merged, and don't do any actual critical thinking too deeply, or you will come up with a conspiracy theory and it will be moved to that forum. And since there is no conspiracy, it won't last there either. It simply is not proper to think outside the box when almost everyone else is inside the box.
That's a bald faced lie about why the threads were split and I think you know it.

The threads were split because your Holistic Grazing proselytizing was unrelated to the Bundy conflict. You are, quite possibly, the only human being on the planet who thinks Holistic Grazing could have done anything to prevent or alleviate the situation. Bundy's own words were quoted, blasting your theories to atoms. At that point your own story about what you'd claimed started changing.

If you want to sway anyone, lying about the circumstances under which the threads were split is a poor start.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:38 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
That's a bald faced lie about why the threads were split and I think you know it.

The threads were split because your Holistic Grazing proselytizing was unrelated to the Bundy conflict. You are, quite possibly, the only human being on the planet who thinks Holistic Grazing could have done anything to prevent or alleviate the situation. Bundy's own words were quoted, blasting your theories to atoms. At that point your own story about what you'd claimed started changing.

If you want to sway anyone, lying about the circumstances under which the threads were split is a poor start.
Off topic, irrelevant and not true. Now why would you carry over a strawman from a cut throat political forum to a science forum and use that strawman to call me a liar? It is meaningless. Yes Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution, but they don't want to hear about it or discuss it in the political forum. Period. They hate Bundy too much to consider anything but hard labor in jail and/or bloodshed. So be it. And politics is off topic here. But apparently Mudcat wants to discuss good land management. Which is a much broader subject that doesn't need to be connected to any particular person, politics or management system. That's why I made the post #12. Please refrain from your off topic personal attacks and muddled thinking and remember where you are now, JREF science forum. Thanks in advance.
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Old 20th May 2014, 10:53 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Off topic, irrelevant and not true.
Yes, that is an accurate description of the forcible injection of Holistic Land Management into the Bundy thread. Thank you.
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Old 20th May 2014, 11:12 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Yes, that is an accurate description of the forcible injection of Holistic Land Management into the Bundy thread. Thank you.
See? In your anger and haste you just proved my point at least with regards to yourself. You resent the forcible injection of Holistic management into the Bundy thread. Now go look at the post made 16th May 2014 08:19 PM #8 that was split off to here. See the link? "Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study" You resent that forcible injection of Holistic management for conflict resolution. Isn't that true?

Well I think it most certainly is a conflict and it most certainly is about grazing, so I thought that conflict resolution of a grazing conflict could be discussed on the political thread. Apparently not because it was split. So be it. I didn't complain. Sometimes when people get so emotionally involved in a political conflict they don't want a resolution. They only want blood. I can accept that. It is human nature.

But this is the science forum. Politics are off the table. Your strawmen are meaningless. Your personal attacks only make you look petty. Please remember where you are. If you wish to discuss good land management options here, I would be happy to discuss them with you as gentlemen. Please bring science citations to the discussion as well. Thanks in advance.
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Old 20th May 2014, 11:16 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Off topic, irrelevant and not true. Now why would you carry over a strawman from a cut throat political forum to a science forum and use that strawman to call me a liar? It is meaningless. Yes Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution, but they don't want to hear about it or discuss it in the political forum. Period. They hate Bundy too much to consider anything but hard labor in jail and/or bloodshed. So be it. And politics is off topic here. But apparently Mudcat wants to discuss good land management. Which is a much broader subject that doesn't need to be connected to any particular person, politics or management system. That's why I made the post #12. Please refrain from your off topic personal attacks and muddled thinking and remember where you are now, JREF science forum. Thanks in advance.
If all you can do is lie on the floor stomping your feet, and crying "why me" I guess we may as well lock the damn thread.

Grow up.
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Old 20th May 2014, 11:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Off topic, irrelevant and not true. Now why would you carry over a strawman from a cut throat political forum to a science forum and use that strawman to call me a liar? It is meaningless. Yes Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution, but they don't want to hear about it or discuss it in the political forum. Period. They hate Bundy too much to consider anything but hard labor in jail and/or bloodshed. So be it. And politics is off topic here. But apparently Mudcat wants to discuss good land management. Which is a much broader subject that doesn't need to be connected to any particular person, politics or management system. That's why I made the post #12. Please refrain from your off topic personal attacks and muddled thinking and remember where you are now, JREF science forum. Thanks in advance.
Wouldn't cooperation of the tenant be a cornerstone of any land management approach? If the tenant refused to participate, or worse, actively works to destroy the land, wouldn't the first step, out of necessity, be to remove that tenant?

Perhaps, by way of example, how would holistic management have functioned in a case such as that in Bunkerville, except with a willing tenant (not Bundy)?
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Old 20th May 2014, 11:25 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
See? In your anger and haste you just proved my point at least with regards to yourself. You resent the forcible injection of Holistic management into the Bundy thread. Now go look at the post made 16th May 2014 08:19 PM #8 that was split off to here. See the link? "Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study" You resent that forcible injection of Holistic management for conflict resolution. Isn't that true?
No. I object to injecting it into the Bundy thread where it was clear that even IF it's promises weren't hippy-dippy BS, it wound have done jack to prevent or alleviate the Bundy conflict. Insisting Holistic Grazing could have helped is flat out reality denial. Insisting aliens built the pyramids is only slightly less absurd a proposition then suggesting Holistic Grazing training could have altered Bundy's course of action.

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
If you wish to discuss good land management options here, I would be happy to discuss them with you as gentlemen.
If I wanted to discuss good land management practices I certainly wouldn't be discussing Holistic Land Management. Regardless, HLM is the thread topic, so I'd like to ask you a serous question. How do you respond to the catastrophic and abject failure of HLM in Zimbabwe?
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Old 20th May 2014, 11:27 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Actually the only reason it isn't interesting to you and doesn't seem relevant is because you are approaching this whole issue from a win/lose paradigm. You are not interested in conflict resolution, only screw you Bundy! HM was actually developed originally for this purpose of conflict resolution of these types of "range wars". Originally in Africa where "drum beating natives" were being driven off their parks, instead of cowboy ranchers being driven from the public rangeland, but the principles parallel each other.

The thing about it is this though. HM has already been used successfully in the role of conflict resolution here in the US facing the same issues as found in Nevada. But apparently the Nevada BLM didn't get that memo.

Here is a case study from Texas: The Planlt Texas Story : Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study

Same fight for the same reasons but a completely different outcome. Still not too late to resolve this conflict the same way in my opinion.
Sounds like HM has been around since '92 in Texas - has Bundy ever brought up HM in any of his (failed) court cases?

(Rhetorical question, as I've read his arguments and HM is nowhere to be found, please correct me if I'm wrong)

Bundy has no more authority to ignore court decisions that go against him than any other individual, and his refusal to comply with the BLM and his refusal to cooperate with the decisions that went against him make him no more than a scofflaw.
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Old 20th May 2014, 11:37 AM   #25
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I am confused. Why are there so many questions that have nothing to do with the science of good land management practices and everything to do with Bundy? I could answer easily enough all these posts but the thread was split off that thread. Ask me there if you wish to know. All you'll end up doing here is anger the science community with your petty political community woo. Please guys, if you want to continue that political discussion, then ask in the political forum. That's why there is a political forum.

Meanwhile here on this thread, please stick to Mudcat's stated reason for dragging it here:
Quote:
Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.
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Old 20th May 2014, 11:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I am confused. Why are there so many questions that have nothing to do with the science of good land management practices and everything to do with Bundy?
You must have missed this:

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
How do you respond to the catastrophic and abject failure of HLM in Zimbabwe?
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post



If I wanted to discuss good land management practices I certainly wouldn't be discussing Holistic Land Management. Regardless, HLM is the thread topic, so I'd like to ask you a serous question. How do you respond to the catastrophic and abject failure of HLM in Zimbabwe?
Actually it didn't fail. You have been reading too much propaganda blogging.

First off the Zimbabwe site started with absolutely barren ground, given to Savory to experiment on because it was "too far gone to recover". Savory managed to restore the land with his system of short duration grazing.

However, Zimbabwe went into civil war. Savory, although white, was in opposition to Ian Smith's white supremacist rule. He was forced to flee the country for his life. While he was gone, the land began to desertify again.

Later, when he returned, he not only very rapidly restored that land even better than before, he also developed a management system that could be used in his absence by anyone at any education level, including completely illiterate. It was that project that won the Buckminster Fuller award. It hasn't failed. Actually it has continued to rejuvenate steadily beyond what anyone even thought possible. Even through subsequent droughts. Even with returning resident wildlife not seen in that region for hundreds of years. And now the managers of that land no longer need the "expert" Savory present to make it work. They do so themselves.
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:07 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Actually it didn't fail. You have been reading too much propaganda blogging.

First off the Zimbabwe site started with absolutely barren ground, given to Savory to experiment on because it was "too far gone to recover". Savory managed to restore the land with his system of short duration grazing.

However, Zimbabwe went into civil war. Savory, although white, was in opposition to Ian Smith's white supremacist rule. He was forced to flee the country for his life. While he was gone, the land began to desertify again.

Later, when he returned, he not only very rapidly restored that land even better than before, he also developed a management system that could be used in his absence by anyone at any education level, including completely illiterate. It was that project that won the Buckminster Fuller award. It hasn't failed. Actually it has continued to rejuvenate steadily beyond what anyone even thought possible. Even through subsequent droughts. Even with returning resident wildlife not seen in that region for hundreds of years. And now the managers of that land no longer need the "expert" Savory present to make it work. They do so themselves.
Please, provide citations.
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Please, provide citations.
Operation Hope

Quote:
The Africa Center for Holistic Management, a 6,500-acre rangeland learning center that he created in 1992, is governed by a small group of trustees including Savory and five African chiefs. The work of the Center is a testament to the breakthrough methods for reversing desertification and its insidious impact on livelihoods, biodiversity and climate change. He has transformed large swaths of parched and degraded areas of the ranch into lush pastures replete with ponds and flowing streams even during periods of drought.
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Old 20th May 2014, 12:51 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
See? In your anger and haste you just proved my point at least with regards to yourself. You resent the forcible injection of Holistic management into the Bundy thread. Now go look at the post made 16th May 2014 08:19 PM #8 that was split off to here. See the link? "Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study" You resent that forcible injection of Holistic management for conflict resolution. Isn't that true?

Well I think it most certainly is a conflict and it most certainly is about grazing, so I thought that conflict resolution of a grazing conflict could be discussed on the political thread. Apparently not because it was split. So be it. I didn't complain. Sometimes when people get so emotionally involved in a political conflict they don't want a resolution. They only want blood. I can accept that. It is human nature.

But this is the science forum. Politics are off the table. Your strawmen are meaningless. Your personal attacks only make you look petty. Please remember where you are. If you wish to discuss good land management options here, I would be happy to discuss them with you as gentlemen. Please bring science citations to the discussion as well. Thanks in advance.
Now would be a good time to bring up whatever you want about holistic management and quit taking pot shots at other posters.

Does holistic land management involve homeopathic cows?
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Old 20th May 2014, 01:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post

Does holistic land management involve homeopathic cows?
No. Are you involved with homeopathic cows?
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Old 20th May 2014, 02:00 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
No. Are you involved with homeopathic cows?
Wouldn't a homeopathic cow just be water used to wash a cow?

Or does the cow need to be crushed and mixed with the water before it can be used to make a dilution?
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Old 20th May 2014, 02:06 PM   #33
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Those of us who are critical thinkers know that anything with the word "holistic" attached is most likely nonsense.
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Old 20th May 2014, 02:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Those of us who are critical thinkers know that anything with the word "holistic" attached is most likely nonsense.
Some reason why critical thinkers are only allowed to use reductionism?


ETA and please explain to me just exactly how it can be considered "critical" thinking to dismiss something away with a hand wave based on a connotation evoked by the equivocation fallacy of its name? That's critical thinking? Really?

PS But hey, if the English language scares you so much that you can't consider anything with the word "holism" in it. And you prefer to narrow things down with reductionism. Why not meet somewhere in the middle? Rest-Rotation is also on the board. No scary words or complicated concepts to muddle your ideas of critical thinking requirements. Why not comment about that? Or perhaps you have your own ideas on land management you'd like to share?
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Old 20th May 2014, 02:49 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Some reason why critical thinkers are only allowed to use reductionism?


ETA and please explain to me just exactly how it can be considered "critical" thinking to dismiss something away with a hand wave based on a connotation evoked by the equivocation fallacy of its name? That's critical thinking? Really?

PS But hey, if the English language scares you so much that you can't consider anything with the word "holism" in it. And you prefer to narrow things down with reductionism. Why not meet somewhere in the middle? Rest-Rotation is also on the board. No scary words or complicated concepts to muddle your ideas of critical thinking requirements. Why not comment about that? Or perhaps you have your own ideas on land management you'd like to share?
Anything more than self reported successes to make up our minds on?
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Old 20th May 2014, 03:19 PM   #36
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Great to see holistic grazing having its own thread so the topic doesn't taint global warming's and other threads as it happened in the past.
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Old 20th May 2014, 03:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Anything more than self reported successes to make up our minds on?
Well let's see.....

Here is a good example of improved land management from Australia.

Why pasture cropping is such a Big Deal I especially like this idea because it integrates permaculture, conventional no till industrial grain production and holistic managed planned grazing all into one big land regeneration, food producing system, all on the same land at the same time! I think it is huge because you get all the benefits from the economies of scale of industrial row crop production while simultaneously healing the land for future generations.

Another closer to home might be one of many educational trials and case studies found at The National Center for Appropriate Technology. Here is just one.

Innovative No-Till: Using Multi-Species Cover Crops to Improve Soil Health Pay close attention to the Brown case study. They also use Holistic management on their leased public range integrated with conventional no till on their own farm. I have discussed this personally with Gabe Brown and we shared information that I found very helpful to try in my own project..and I hope he got some things from me to try in his operation.

Above is a audio/visual webinar presentation. However, for a simplified PDF, you can scan though here. Innovative No-Till: Using Multi-Species Cover Crops to Improve Soil Health

And for a published scientific study on some of the biophysical aspects try this:
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie

There is of course more...but that should get you started.

ETA:
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Great to see holistic grazing having its own thread so the topic doesn't taint global warming's and other threads as it happened in the past.
Funny how you should chose the weighted term "taint", every one of those links I just posted contains discussion of soil carbon. You can't separate soil carbon from the discussion of either holistic management, soil health, or global warming. It is a biological system and they are all related and intricately linked. Soil most certainly is a part of the carbon cycle. I wonder why discussing that makes you think it is "tainting" the subject of global warming? Doesn't the soil carbon come from the atmosphere ultimately via photosynthesis? Isn't atmospheric CO2 the primary driver of AGW?
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Old 21st May 2014, 10:21 AM   #38
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Old 21st May 2014, 10:54 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post

Funny how you should chose the weighted term "taint", every one of those links I just posted contains discussion of soil carbon. You can't separate soil carbon from the discussion of either holistic management, soil health, or global warming. It is a biological system and they are all related and intricately linked. Soil most certainly is a part of the carbon cycle. I wonder why discussing that makes you think it is "tainting" the subject of global warming? Doesn't the soil carbon come from the atmosphere ultimately via photosynthesis? Isn't atmospheric CO2 the primary driver of AGW?
After reading this piece of yours, tainting seems to be even righter.
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Old 21st May 2014, 11:49 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Reading that re-reminded me of the fact that RBF also had a difficult (more like impossible) time understanding that the purpose of the BLM'S management is/was not sustainable grazing, but the maintenance of a bio-system-that being a health desert environment, not a grasslands-which the rainfall in that environment would never support anyway
..
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