ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th August 2014, 06:45 PM   #361
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
My example: If managers were educated in the scientific experimental method then they would be more likely to agree with the scientific evidence.
Since the only published scientific study on HMPG managed land is the Teague study, I would agree that they already do agree with the scientific evidence, being it does not differ from their own hands on experience, both measurable positive results.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Savory's statement is about the impossibility of ever replicating HM results no mater how many studies are done.
I have already stated 3 times that was an poorly phrased statement. What he probably should have said is that it is impossible to replicate HM in studies that exclude the "human variables" that Briske talks about. But he generally uses the more generalist phrasing that reductionist science can't be used to replicate the holistic context of HMPG.

Bottom line is they are effectively saying the same thing, but Savory's comment was an off the cuff unprepared statement over the phone, whereas Briske's was a carefully crafted and considered statement as part of a published review of the state of the current published (reductionist) science.
Quote:
because it derives from experiments that intentionally excluded these human variables.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 7th August 2014 at 07:06 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2014, 07:06 PM   #362
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I have already stated 3 times that was an poorly phrased statement. ...
No, Red Baron Farms, you cannot read Savory's mind and state what he meant to say ! You can only read what he wrote and state that it shows ignorance about the scientific process.
I have already stated this in various forms several times.

You also need to read the sources - it is a PDF on his web site.

Last edited by Reality Check; 7th August 2014 at 07:08 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2014, 07:08 PM   #363
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
No, Red Baron Farms, you cannot read Savory's mind and state what he meant to say ! You can only read what he wrote and state that it shows ignorance about the scientific process.
I have already stated this in various forms several times.
He didn't write it. And I can say because I have heard him say and write it much better in many prepared interviews as opposed to this off the cuff unprepared phone interview.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2014, 07:17 PM   #364
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
He didn't write it.
This is the heading for the PDF on his web site:
Updated March 6, 2013
Response to request for information on the “science” and “methodology”
underpinning Holistic Management and holistic planned grazing.
Allan Savory.

What is the Savory Institute, Red Baron Farms ?
Who is Allan Savory, Red Baron Farms ?
Does the third paragraph in the PDF look familiar, Red Baron Farms ?
Quote:
Because each and every managed situation involving land (people, land, money) is totally unique, and also unique every year just as one cannot step into the same river twice because it is flowing, Holistic Management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the “science” used and monitor or document “results achieved”.

What about this quote from Eat more meat and save the world: the latest implausible farming miracle, Red Baron Farms?
Quote:
Savory referred me to a paper he’d written, which he said, explains the science and methodology of holistic grazing. This paper (again apparently unpublished except on his website) explained the lack of scientific support for his claims as follows:
Holistic management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the ‘science’ used and monitor or document ‘results achieved’...

Now what did Allan Savory not write?

Last edited by Reality Check; 7th August 2014 at 07:18 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2014, 07:57 PM   #365
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Does the third paragraph in the PDF look familiar
Sure it does. And in the context of the PDF it becomes quite clear you are using an equivocation. I already noted your comments were taking Savory's phone interview out of context, (as was that "science writer" BTW) and with the full context it becomes clear. And Savory says the same thing you said. You can do a study, but only to "validate the ‘science’ used and monitor or document ‘results achieved'". How similar is that to what you said before? "You can compare cases using HM against cases not using HM"

Obviously you can study the system as a whole, (Teague did) but try and break it down by intentionally excluding the human variables and it is impossible.(Briske noted that limitation)

All saying the same thing in different terminology and with different emphasis. But what Savory is absolutely NOT saying is that it can't be studied by science at all. Unlike the improper comparison you made to the truly woo homeopathy which has no scientific basis whatsoever.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 7th August 2014 at 08:21 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2014, 08:43 PM   #366
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Sure it does. And in the context of the PDF it becomes quite clear ...
that the text is what Savory wrote, Red Baron Farms, no matter what fantasies you make up about what he meant.
The context was never what he said in his phone interview. The context was always what he wrote (and directed the reporter to).

What is writen in the PDF is clear:
Quote:
Because each and every managed situation involving land (people, land, money) is totally unique, and also unique every year just as one cannot step into the same river twice because it is flowing, Holistic Management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the “science” used and monitor or document “results achieved”. Note: This point is critical to understanding the great difficulty reductionist scientists are experiencing trying to comprehend holistic planned grazing – because no two plans are ever the same even on the same property two years running, planned grazing cannot be replicated which reductionist scientists do to try to understand the ‘science.’
* Holistic Management does not permit replication
* Savory has his own personal definition of "science" and "results achieved" !
* Science does not do self-validation. Science works through checking the predictions of theories against the real world.
Newton did not say F=ma, that looks reasonable and science stopped there ! F=ma was tested.
* Science is not just monitoring results.
* Science is not just documenting results.

It is the last three points that show ignorance of the scientific process.

What I said about Savory's statement:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
What Savory is saying is that HM can never be replicated because each trial is unique. This is analogous to the homeopathy claim that because every treatment is customized for an individual, no clinical trials on homeopathy can be done.
Savory is just wrong. You can compare cases using HM against cases not using HM and it does not matter that each HM case is differently implemented.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That does not support Savory's ignorance about how science works and that no studies on HM are possible.
(really should be "repeatable studies")
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Savory's statement is about the impossibility of ever replicating HM results no mater how many studies are done.

Last edited by Reality Check; 7th August 2014 at 08:49 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2014, 09:21 PM   #367
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Nice house of cards you built there, what you going to do when Teague's results are replicated? Hide your head in shame because you purposely misrepresented the meaning of Savory's words?

Savory is a scientist, his results have been replicated by Teague, another independant scientist, and other studies are being done as we speak. It is only a matter of time before those results are confirmed in more published studies. (I know that because thousands of ranchers world wide have already gotten positive results, but hadn't had their ranches as part of a scientific study) So far not one single negative study on HMPG. Whether that changes who knows?

But will you ever admit YOU are wrong in your equivocation of Savory's words? Extremely doubtful.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2014, 10:09 PM   #368
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,933
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Nice house of cards you built there, what you going to do when Teague's results are replicated?
They can't be. Ever. That's the problem we have with it.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2014, 02:56 AM   #369
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
They can't be. Ever. That's the problem we have with it.
And there you have the equivocation. Replication of the exact conditions of the Teague study can never be repeated exactly. But replication of HMPG being an improved land management system over current land management practises, including ecosystem services such as erosion prevention, water infiltration/retention, and carbon sequestration etc... is easily and consistently repeatable. The key to the equivocation being the sense or context of the word replicate.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 8th August 2014 at 03:05 AM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2014, 05:40 PM   #370
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Hide your head in shame because you purposely misrepresented the meaning of Savory's words?
Savory's words are quite clear:
Quote:
Because each and every managed situation involving land (people, land, money) is totally unique, and also unique every year just as one cannot step into the same river twice because it is flowing, Holistic Management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the “science” used and monitor or document “results achieved”. Note: This point is critical to understanding the great difficulty reductionist scientists are experiencing trying to comprehend holistic planned grazing – because no two plans are ever the same even on the same property two years running, planned grazing cannot be replicated which reductionist scientists do to try to understand the ‘science.’

There is no misrepresentation of them, this is stating exactly what is in red and bold above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality Check
Savory's statement is about the impossibility of ever replicating HM results no mater how many studies are done.

As I said:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
What is written in the PDF is clear:
* Holistic Management does not permit replication (as I have said a couple of times)
* Savory has his own personal definition of "science" and "results achieved" (or why the double quotes?) !
* Science does not do self-validation. Science works through checking the predictions of theories against the real world.
Newton did not say F=ma, that looks reasonable and science stopped there ! F=ma was tested.
* Science is not just monitoring results.
* Science is not just documenting results.

It is the last three points that show ignorance of the scientific process.
(added text for clarification)
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2014, 06:02 PM   #371
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
They can't be. Ever. That's the problem we have with it.
I would put it another way - Savory says that HM results cannot be replicated and that is a problem "Because of this fact...".
That implies that the only paper on HM (which actually supports HM!)
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie
is probably wrong according to Savory because it is not validating the "science" or documenting “results achieved” - it actually scientifically analyses the results .

Red Baron Farms implies he thinks that Savory is wrong, i.e. states the position that the scientific community has:
However science can handle cases where each experiment is deemed to be unique in some way. The classical example is the homeopathic claim that every treatment is unique to an individual and so clinical trials are impossible. But all you do is allow homeopaths to administer their remedies to a group of patients with the same illness and compare the results to a control group.

Look at the paper's abstract - that is what is basically done!
Quote:
This study documents the positive results for long-term maintenance of resources and economic viability by ranchers who use adaptive management and MP grazing relative to those who practice continuous season-long stocking

Last edited by Reality Check; 10th August 2014 at 06:05 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2014, 09:34 PM   #372
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
You insist on the same equivocation? Even when he clearly explains it? You red and bold it, yet boldly display your willful ignorance about the rest of the paragraph? Really?

Savory does NOT say that HM can't be replicated by science. He states quite clearly it can't be replicated by reductionist science. (read the whole paragraph for context and clarification) It is a very clear distinction. Even Briske (who is on record as being critical of Savory) understands this. That's why he notes "because it derives from experiments that intentionally excluded these human variables". He could have added more in my opinion. But at least he understands that there really isn't any way to separate the manager from the management system and make any conclusive claims about the management system.

More than that though, in complex biological systems you normally need to use holism instead of reductionism even when not managed by Man. You can't really reduce it to its component parts and still understand emergence, self-organization, collective behaviour, trophic and ecological cascades, etc..

So on many levels, the more you reduce complex biological systems, the less understanding you have of how they function as a system. On the other hand science most definitely CAN study the system as a whole. You CAN validate the system used and monitor the results obtained. Which BTW is exactly what Savory said, and Teague did. He simply allowed the managers to use the various grazing systems, and monitored the results, as opposed to intentionally excluding variables, he allowed the managers to adapt to the ever changing complex variables.
Quote:
► Success was due to managing grazing adaptively for desired results.
That should be no biggie to understand. Or do you suppose that any farmer or rancher follows a rigid plan without adapting to things like ever changing weather conditions?

Quote:
"The first duty of the agriculturalist must always be to understand that he is part of nature and can not escape from his environment." - Sir Albert Howard
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 10th August 2014 at 09:45 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2014, 03:26 PM   #373
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
... (read the whole paragraph for context and clarification)
You need to read the entire paragraph, Red Baron Farms:
PDF
Quote:
Because each and every managed situation involving land (people, land, money) is totally unique, and also unique every year just as one cannot step into the same river twice because it is flowing, Holistic Management does not permit replication. Because of this fact we can only validate the “science” used and monitor or document “results achieved”. Note: This point is critical to understanding the great difficulty reductionist scientists are experiencing trying to comprehend holistic planned grazing – because no two plans are ever the same even on the same property two years running, planned grazing cannot be replicated which reductionist scientists do to try to understand the
“science.” What such researchers also fail to understand is it were replicable as are all grazing systems and rotations, it still would only provide the results and not the “science”. Every study of holistic planned grazing that has been done has provided results that are rejected by range scientists because there was no replication!
This paragraph is about replication. The word reductionist is applied to scientists in a little insult.

The last sentence is just wrong:
Holistic planned grazing is rejected by the majority of range scientists because "the majority of range scientists have not been able to experimentally confirm that intensive grazing systems similar to those at the center of holistic management show a benefit, and claim that managers' reports of success are anecdotal".
But his claim of "no replication" is an extra, small reason to be dubious about Savory (not HM). It does not stop HM from being tested.

One reductionist paper (Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie) does not validate HM by itself, especially given Savory's distain for reductionism .

What validates theories in science is a body of evidence. This means multiple published papers. A single paper is a good start but there are always issues that can be raised about a single paper, e.g. the first paper on a subject usually has a small sample size and so is statistically unsure.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2014, 03:41 PM   #374
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
More than that though, in complex biological systems you normally need to use holism instead of reductionism even when not managed by Man. You can't really reduce it to its component parts and still understand emergence, self-organization, collective behaviour, trophic and ecological cascades, etc.
This is not about understanding, Red Baron Farms. It is about validating that a holistic system works.
The real problem is that you cannot "use holism" and assume that magic happens that turns indifferent farming practices into effective farming practices. You still have to compare results to see whether they are better or not .

For example: Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie is a "black box" study. It does not look closely at how HM works or try to understand it deeply. There are just two sets of black boxes - one where HM is used, one where HM is not used.
And it is reductionist - where are the human factors considered in the paper, Red Baron Farms? Where does it look at "emergence, self-organization, collective behaviour, trophic and ecological cascades, etc."?
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2014, 04:50 PM   #375
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,681
Not weighing in on the debate, but probably of interest to the participants:

[Guardian: Eat more meat and save the world: the latest implausible farming miracle]

Excerpt:
Quote:
I would love to believe him. But I’ve been in this game too long to take anything on trust – especially simple solutions to complex problems. So I went to the library and started reading. A large number of academic papers have been published in response to his claims, testing them by means of experimental and comparative studies. The conclusion, overwhelmingly, is that his statements are not supported by empirical evidence and experimental work, and that in crucial respects his techniques do more harm than good.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2014, 06:22 PM   #376
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
On the same theme there is Cows Against Climate Change: The Dodgy Science Behind the TED Talk
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2014, 07:14 PM   #377
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Not weighing in on the debate, but probably of interest to the participants:

[Guardian: Eat more meat and save the world: the latest implausible farming miracle]
It is a synthesis posted earlier, and not a particularly good one at that. He says, "A large number of academic papers have been published in response to his claims, testing them by means of experimental and comparative studies." Which is false. Only one study has tested his claims, and it confirmed them. The other so called "tests" were simply reviews and/or synthesis' that are not based on any new experimental evidence, supporting or falsifying.

He also says, "The conclusion, overwhelmingly, is that his statements are not supported by empirical evidence and experimental work, and that in crucial respects his techniques do more harm than good." And yet he produced no evidence of this statement at all. So far only one published peer review study and it confirmed Savory's claims at least on the Texas ranches in the study. Obviously more ranches around the world need published and peer reviewed too, so that the anecdotal case studies can be confirmed or falsified scientifically. But that takes time. Again, no evidence whatsoever HM does harm, not even anecdotal evidence. That is purely made up, but based on Joy Belsky's crusade to eliminate all livestock ranches in the western USA.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That's actually a good one, seeing as how the comments section has a well written rebuttal by Teague.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 11th August 2014 at 07:20 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2014, 06:53 PM   #378
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
That's actually a good one, seeing as how the comments section has a well written rebuttal by Teague.
It looks like you ignored the actual contents of the blog to find a comment written by Teague which seems to not be there, Red Baron Farms!
No commenter with a name like Teague.
No comment that is an actual rebuttal of the blog.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The comments section has several commenters with the ignorance about the plural of anecdotes is not data.

ETA: Why mention a comment by Teague and not the comment by AGlatzle wo is critical of Savory's methods?

Last edited by Reality Check; 20th October 2014 at 06:59 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2014, 07:11 PM   #379
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
It looks like Savory's TED talk inspired a review article.
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems
Quote:
Over 3 billion hectares of lands worldwide are grazed by livestock, with a majority suffering degradation in ecological condition. Losses in plant productivity, biodiversity of plant and animal communities, and carbon storage are occurring as a result of livestock grazing. Holistic management (HM) has been proposed as a means of restoring degraded deserts and grasslands and reversing climate change. The fundamental approach of this system is based on frequently rotating livestock herds to mimic native ungulates reacting to predators in order to break up biological soil crusts and trample plants and soils to promote restoration. This review could find no peer-reviewed studies that show that this management approach is superior to conventional grazing systems in outcomes. Any claims of success due to HM are likely due to the management aspects of goal setting, monitoring, and adapting to meet goals, not the ecological principles embodied in HM. Ecologically, the application of HM principles of trampling and intensive foraging are as detrimental to plants, soils, water storage, and plant productivity as are conventional grazing systems. Contrary to claims made that HM will reverse climate change, the scientific evidence is that global greenhouse gas emissions are vastly larger than the capacity of worldwide grasslands and deserts to store the carbon emitted each year.
The "peer-reviewed studies" probably refers to current HM rather than Savory's earlier incarnations of HM and so skips the Zimbabwe trial.

Last edited by Reality Check; 20th October 2014 at 07:20 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th October 2014, 08:46 PM   #380
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
It looks like Savory's TED talk inspired a review article.
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

The "peer-reviewed studies" probably refers to current HM rather than Savory's earlier incarnations of HM and so skips the Zimbabwe trial.
LOL Still hanging your hat on Belsky's failed crusade?
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 09:45 AM   #381
halleyscomet
Philosopher
 
halleyscomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 9,788
Summary of the thread thus far:


Hosted on a site that allows hotlinking
__________________
Look what I found! There's this whole web site full of skeptics that spun off from the James Randy Education Foundation!
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 01:52 PM   #382
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
LOL Still hanging your hat on Belsky's failed crusade?
This is science, Red Baron Farms, rather than blindly following the claims of someone who has no credible scientific evidence that his methods work. You also need to learn to read links:
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems has no " Belsky" in it. The authors are John Carter, Allison Jones, Mary O’Brien, Jonathan Ratner, and George Wuerthner.
The points in the review are
  • Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?
    Quote:
    Western US ecosystems outside the prairies in which bison occurred are not adapted to the impact of large herds of livestock. Recent changes to these grassland ecosystems result from herbivory by domestic livestock which has altered fire cycles and promoted invasive species at the expense of native vegetation.
  • Do Grasses Senesce and Die If Not Grazed by Livestock?
    Quote:
    Grasses, particularly bunchgrasses, have structure that protects growing points from damage, harvests water, and protects the soil at the plant base. Removal of the standing plant material exposes the growing points, leading to loss or replacement by grazing tolerant species, including invasives.
  • Does Rest Cause Grassland Deterioration?
    Quote:
    Contrary to the assumption that grasses will senesce and die if not grazed by livestock, studies of numerous relict sites, long-term rested sites, and paired grazed and ungrazed sites have demonstrated that native plant communities, particularly bunchgrasses, are sustained by rest from livestock grazing.
  • Is Hoof Action Necessary for Grassland Health?
    Quote:
    We found no evidence that hoof action as described by Savory occurs in the arid and semiarid grasslands of the western USA which lacked large herds of ungulates such as bison that occurred in the prairies of the USA or the savannahs of Africa.
  • Can Grazing Livestock Increase Carbon Storage and Reverse Climate Change?
    Quote:
    Livestock are a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. Livestock removal of plant biomass and altering of soil properties by trampling and erosion causes loss of carbon storage and nutrients as evidenced by studies in grazed and ungrazed areas.
  • What Is the Evidence That Holistic Management Does Not Produce the Claimed Effects?
    Quote:
    Studies in Africa and the western USA, including the prairies which evolved in the presence of bison, show that HM, like conventional grazing systems, does not compensate for overstocking of livestock.
  • What about Riparian Areas and Biodiversity?
    Quote:
    HM does not address riparian areas and biodiversity with its focus on livestock production, although operators could choose these as goals.
  • Is Scientific Evidence Important?
    Quote:
    Studies supporting HM have generally come from the Savory Institute or anecdotal accounts of HM practitioners. Leading range scientists have refuted the system and indicated that its adoption by land management agencies is based on these anecdotes and unproven principles rather than scientific evidence.
They cite supporting studies but note
Quote:
Studies commonly held up as supporting HM [104–108] used HM paddocks that were grazed with light to moderate grazing, not the heavy grazing that Savory recommends.

Last edited by Reality Check; 21st October 2014 at 03:11 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 01:59 PM   #383
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
This is science, Red Baron Farms, rather than blindly following the claims of someone who has no credible scientific evidence that his methods work. You also need to learn to read links:
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems has no " Belsky" in it. The authors are John Carter, Allison Jones, Mary O’Brien, Jonathan Ratner, and George Wuerthner.
My emphasis

Really? Because she died before she finished, and those other converts finished the draft for her, that means it wasn't part of her failed crusade?

Quote:
Acknowledgment

Joy Belsky (1944–2001), Range Ecologist, who made available a draft analysis of holistic management before her death, provided us with much of the material presented here.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 21st October 2014 at 02:36 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 02:49 PM   #384
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
My emphasis
My emphasis added:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
This is science, Red Baron Farms, rather than blindly following the claims of someone who has no credible scientific evidence that his methods work. You also need to learn to read links:
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems has no " Belsky" in it. The authors are John Carter, Allison Jones, Mary O’Brien, Jonathan Ratner, and George Wuerthner.
The points in the review are [the answers are basically no]
  • Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?
  • Do Grasses Senesce and Die If Not Grazed by Livestock?
  • Does Rest Cause Grassland Deterioration?
  • Is Hoof Action Necessary for Grassland Health?
  • Can Grazing Livestock Increase Carbon Storage and Reverse Climate Change?
  • What Is the Evidence That Holistic Management Does Not Produce the Claimed Effects?
  • What about Riparian Areas and Biodiversity?
  • Is Scientific Evidence Important?
Added emphasis on the science that you are still ignoring, Red Baron Farms.

And you think that someone who has been dead for 13 years somehow corrupted the science stated in this review paper!
Quote:
Acknowledgment

Joy Belsky (1944–2001), Range Ecologist, who made available a draft analysis of holistic management before her death, provided us with much of the material presented here.
The "converts/crusade" language is the stuff we see from conspiracy theorists all of the time. You should to not follow their jargon. Otherwise you need to look at another "convert" who has a "failed crusade" to support HM called Red Baron Farms !

Last edited by Reality Check; 21st October 2014 at 02:58 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 03:09 PM   #385
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Joy Belsky seems to have been a prominent range ecologist, e.g. Guide to the Joy Belsky Papers 1931-2001
Quote:
Belsky published over 45 peer-reviewed scientific papers and book chapters on African and North American grasslands and rangelands and was working on a paper contesting Allan Savory’s theory of holistic management when she died.
and was the first to challenge Savory's HM (thus Red Baron Farms dislike of her).
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 03:41 PM   #386
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
My emphasis added:

Added emphasis on the science that you are still ignoring, Red Baron Farms.
Reality Check

You think I ignored it? Or you think I read it, even tried some of it, and found it ridiculous?

Truth is most of it isn't anything to do with HM or any other modern grazing system at all, and only shows that eliminating overgrazing is beneficial. And what? We all already knew that. But particularly funny was the "scientist" who went out and used hand scissors to cut grass plants to "simulate" grazing![1] I still chuckle at that one. I can just see those researchers crawling around on their knees with scissors cutting random grass plants!

What you had with Belsky and her converts was an attempt to equate all grazing with poor management. She started quite a good synthesis, and John Carter, Allison Jones, Mary O’Brien, Jonathan Ratner, and George Wuerthner, finished it for her. But one problem. It failed in the field. It's still failing in the field where it is tried. Meanwhile Savory's theories are working in the field.[2]

So she had a good concept. Even made a valiant attempt attempt to promote her almost religious zeal to eliminate all grazing from public lands. But it all falls apart when actually put into practise. That's primarily due to her not considering the trophic cascades that cause emergent properties, all resulting from the symbiosis between the grassland, grazer and predator. Although it is all there in the references. [3] Apparently just wasn't capable of seeing how to mimic it with livestock. Blinded by her own biases! Luckily Savory succeeded where so many before failed.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 21st October 2014 at 03:44 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 04:00 PM   #387
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
You think I ignored it?
You did not address any science in that review so I did think that you ignored the science for your little rant about "converts/crusade" and obsession about a dead scientist (Belsky) which you double up about in this post !
Meanwhile Savory's theories are working in the field only according to biased converts and their failed crusades to support HM .
The science on HM is still at the best mixed.
The assumptions behind Savory's HM are shown to be invalid in Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems.

Last edited by Reality Check; 21st October 2014 at 04:06 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 04:30 PM   #388
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The assumptions behind Savory's HM are shown to be invalid in Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems.
Yes! Especially by those scientists crawling around on their knees with scissors! Completely invalidates all Savory's decades of work with livestock in the field.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 05:26 PM   #389
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Yes! ...
Glad you agree that HM's assumptions are so thoroughly debunked by Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems, Red Baron Farms.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2014, 05:32 PM   #390
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Glad you agree that HM's assumptions are so thoroughly debunked by Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems, Red Baron Farms.
Glad to see you at least agree with my sarcasm. I had become to think you were simply being hardheaded on purpose.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2014, 02:17 PM   #391
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Getting serious again, Red Baron Farms: Are you going to ignore the science in Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems?
For example: a tenet in HM is that "Western North American Ecosystems are Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals" but the evidence this that this is only true for those areas where there are herds of large hooved animals (obviously!)

ETA: I am curious about one statement in the review:
Quote:
Savory’s writings lack specifics that could be used for implementation of HM or for scientific testing. Details regarding setting of stocking rates, allowable use by livestock, amount of rest needed for recovery, or ecological criteria to be met for biodiversity, sustainability, wildlife, and watershed protection are absent [3–7].
where the Savory’s writing references extend to 1999 ([7] is 7.C. J. Hadley, “The wild life of Allan Savory,” Rangelands, vol. 22, pp. 6–10, 2000.)
That implies that Savory and his colleagues ("converts" in Red Baron Farms-speak) have not published any comprehensive description of HM that could be used for scientific testing in the last 14 years!
Has the review missed some critical papers by Savory, etc.?

Last edited by Reality Check; 22nd October 2014 at 02:26 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2014, 02:37 PM   #392
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
There is an implied question in
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
It looks like you ignored the actual contents of the blog to find a comment written by Teague which seems to not be there, Red Baron Farms!
which I will make explicit:
Red Baron Farms: Where is the "well written rebuttal by Teague" in the comments section of Cows Against Climate Change: The Dodgy Science Behind the TED Talk

You may be referring to the "well written" and irrelevant comment by Teague in the RealClimate article comments which is about previous papers (not the article or TED talk). I find it interesting that the first paper Teague criticizes is
Quote:
Briske, D., Derner, J., Brown, J., Fuhlendorf, S., Teague, R., Gillen, B., Ash, A., Havstad, K., Willms, W., 2008. Benefits of Rotational Grazing on Rangelands: An Evaluation of the Experimental Evidence. Rangeland Ecology and Management 61, 3-17. http://www.srmjournals.org/doi/abs/10.2111/06-159R.1
(my emphasis added)
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2014, 03:29 PM   #393
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Getting serious again, Red Baron Farms: Are you going to ignore the science in Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems?
For example: a tenet in HM is that "Western North American Ecosystems are Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals" but the evidence this that this is only true for those areas where there are herds of large hooved animals (obviously!)
In my personal opinion it is nitpicking. I doubt the "hoof action" is of more than just secondary importance. I have observed that it does create the disturbance needed for new seeds to sprout though. And that's not just me. It actually is a standard practice to trample seeds when overseeding pasture to achieve better germination. But I question whether there really is that huge a difference between horse, sheep, cattle, antelope or deer. Seems to me that other things like mulch on the soil, living plant cover, manure/urine, and micro-organism community are more important "impacts" than the particular size and quality of the hoof impact. However, the larger harder hooved animals certainly can over impact an area easier. So it seems to me that you couldn't ignore it. You just need to be more aware and monitor more closely when dealing with large horses or cattle. Either way, large hooved herbivores did coevolve with savanna/grassland ecosystems throughout N. America. Some even larger than the horses and cattle we have today, and removing those impacts, or changing the behavior of those animals will set up a trophic cascade of effects. Both that paper, and Savory agree on this point. The disagreement is to whether Savory's method is sufficiently adaptive and flexible enough to mimic this effect in a positive way. Belsky assumed it was impossible based on her observations of OTHER grazing systems. Savory would agree with Belsky, but claims he found a way to succeed where so many others failed. She's dead now, so it would be difficult to say whether she would ever be convinced of that. Hard to say. Most the case studies and scientific studies that showed rangeland improvement using HM came after Belsky died. Even though this was more recently published, it is actually just a few people finishing her much older paper because she died in 2001 before she could finish it.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
ETA: I am curious about one statement in the review:
where the Savory’s writing references extend to 1999 ([7] is 7.C. J. Hadley, “The wild life of Allan Savory,” Rangelands, vol. 22, pp. 6–10, 2000.)
That implies that Savory and his colleagues ("converts" in Red Baron Farms-speak) have not published any comprehensive description of HM that could be used for scientific testing in the last 14 years!
Has the review missed some critical papers by Savory, etc.?
As far as I know Savory himself has only published results from project Hope since then. (a proof of concept project) That won him the Buckminster Fuller Award. [1] I don't know of any journal published papers from him since then.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Where is the "well written rebuttal by Teague" in the comments section of Cows Against Climate Change: The Dodgy Science Behind the TED Talk
I don't know actually. Either I mixed up where that rebuttal was posted. Or it is taken down now.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
You may be referring to the "well written" and irrelevant comment by Teague in the RealClimate article comments which is about previous papers (not the article or TED talk). I find it interesting that the first paper Teague criticizes is
Quote:
Briske, D., Derner, J., Brown, J., Fuhlendorf, S., Teague, R., Gillen, B., Ash, A., Havstad, K., Willms, W., 2008. Benefits of Rotational Grazing on Rangelands: An Evaluation of the Experimental Evidence. Rangeland Ecology and Management 61, 3-17. http://www.srmjournals.org/doi/abs/10.2111/06-159R.1
(my emphasis added)
Yes I agree. I saw that around a year and 1/2 ago. It was one of the things that peaked my interest. Here was Teague, a member of the Briske study, then publishing a newer study largely contradicting that older study he was a part of. They are even both from Texas A&M University! Colleagues! That lead me to very closely look at what Teague had to say about it. He would know as well as anyone if that study should be properly applied to refute HM or not....or if it was just an synthesis to apply it to HM. That's why when Teague published a rebuttal in Rangelands (BioOne) Deficiencies in the Briske et al. Rebuttal of the Savory Method [1] this year, I paid close attention. There are some older rebuttals too. [2] But even more interesting is that Briske also back tracted on that first paper quite a lot just 3 years later! Basically saying almost the exact things Savory does, and has been doing, should be done, but confirmed in a more rigorous way to resolve the debate.[2] Teague did that just as the second Briske paper recommends, but then Briske seems to have waffled a bit yet again? Or maybe he didn't waffle, but is still waiting for more studies to be published before he allows himself to be convinced? But then the RealClimate post came up and instead of resolution, it only polarised the debate even more!

Now I am not 100% sure, but I just bet Savory, Briske and Teague are a whole lot closer than they appear to be. But Briske taking the "devils advocate" approach. At least it wouldn't surprise me one bit.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 22nd October 2014 at 04:58 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2014, 04:27 PM   #394
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
In my personal opinion it is nitpicking. ....
So no evidence to counter the rebuttal for the first HM assumption which is nothing to do with "hoof action".
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems
Quote:
Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals.
It is to do with a simple fact - ecosystems evolve to fit their populations. An ecosystem with large hooved animals evolves to need large hooved animals. An ecosystem without large hooved animals does not evolve to need large hooved animals !


Thank you for confirming that the published literature on HM (at least by Savory) stopped in 2000 - 14 years of silence and counting !
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2014, 05:19 PM   #395
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
So no evidence to counter the rebuttal for the first HM assumption
Not an assumption. The first rebuttal simply states
Quote:
Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?
And then claims not. But if you read the sources. The sources say something quite different. They acknowledge that large herds are gone now, but they were there thousands of years ago. See there were two mass extinctions (or maybe the second and current one is just a continuation of the first)

One was shortly after humans arrived in North America, and then a decline ever since but extra severe when Europeans arrived. The real question from that POV is did the loss of the large herbivores cause the desertification and local climate change and change in the plant communities in a trophic cascade, or did the climate change and plant community change cause the loss of the large herbivores? That is still being debated fiercely in the scientific community. The paper you are putting your faith in actually muddles the whole thing, because Belsky believed that climate change caused the loss of the large herds. But the paper has some new information about the opposite view which say the herds (or loss of them, change of behavior etc) can cause the change in something called a trophic cascade! Belsky clearly did not believe that at all!

Quote:
No convincing evidence supports the theory that herbivory benefits grazed plants. Joy Belsky 1986
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 22nd October 2014 at 05:25 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2014, 05:37 PM   #396
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...
Wrong, Red Baron Farms.
The section starts with the range of bison which was and is still not over every single bit of grassland in the USA
Quote:
Lands west of the Continental Divide of the USA, including the Great Basin, Sonoran, Mojave, and Colorado Plateau deserts, along with the Palouse Prairie grasslands of eastern Washington, western Montana, and northern Idaho, did not evolve with significant grazing pressure from bison (Bison bison) [9, 12, 13]. Though bison were abundant east of the Rockies on the Great Plains, they only occurred in limited numbers across western Wyoming, northeastern Utah, and southeastern Idaho [12, 14].
Do I really have to ask for your evidence that bison were abundant in western Wyoming, northeastern Utah, and southeastern Idaho, Red Baron Farms?

The section continues with the evolution of grasslands away from livestock grazing after the Pleistocene epoch.
Quote:
The supposition that current western North American plant communities are adapted to livestock grazing because the region supported a diverse herbivore fauna during the Pleistocene epoch ignores that the plant communities have changed in the intervening time [16]. ... In summary, the western USA of the Pleistocene is not the western USA of today
This is evolution in action - plant communities evolving to adjust for the lack of livestock !
Thus the conclusion is
Quote:
Conclusion. Western US ecosystems outside the prairies in which bison occurred are not adapted to the impact of large herds of livestock. Recent changes to these grassland ecosystems result from herbivory by domestic livestock which has altered fire cycles and promoted invasive species at the expense of native vegetation.
(my emphasis added)

If Savory has some magic stick to wave to reverse this evolution so western North American becomes dependent on livestock again then he should share it with the world .

Last edited by Reality Check; 22nd October 2014 at 05:42 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2014, 01:06 PM   #397
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post

If Savory has some magic stick to wave to reverse this evolution so western North American becomes dependent on livestock again then he should share it with the world .
There is no magic wand Reality Check. The sooner you get that false assumption and strawman out of your head the better. There also is little to no area on the North American continent not already affected by human impact. The vast majority of ecosystems affected have been affected negatively. Further, there is no going back either.

The real question is can we feed people and benefit the ecology simultaneously? If a person were to look around, they might be tempted to conclude the best way to restore ecosystem function over vast tracts of land would be to just leave it alone. At least eventually some sort of biome would eventually take over, and likely not as bad as the destruction human impact has caused.

However, that discounts one very important possibility. That humans are actually potentially capable of improving an ecosystem just as easily as we are capable of destroying one. It's a little trickier. Using biomimicry helps. Understanding how trophic cascades work helps. It' still a lot of work, but the benefits far outweigh the costs.

Now you can side with the so called eco-extremists (that think that humans can ONLY destroy) if you wish. That the only ecological solutions are to remove humans. The so called "Environmentalism By Abandonment" crowd like Joy Belsky[1]. Or as Joel Salatin calls them:
Quote:
The radical earth muffins and preservationists who believe nature is too sacrosanct to foul with human breath.
I can't attack your fundamental belief system, it's yours to believe. But I do get offended when people of your ilk obstruct those of us attempting to conduct participatory environmentalism and feed the world at the same time. Not by magic, but by hard work. Just get out of the way and let us get to it.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 24th October 2014 at 01:28 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2014, 12:37 PM   #398
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Exclamation Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds ...

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
There is no magic wand Reality Check. ..sniped irrelevant rant....
So other than Savory's magic stick (not the ) and your wishful thinking, you are going to ignore the science that debunks an assumption behind HM, Red Baron Farms?
Or are you going to acknowledge that that assumption is wrong?

Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems
Quote:
Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2014, 02:16 PM   #399
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
So other than Savory's magic stick (not the ) and your wishful thinking, you are going to ignore the science that debunks an assumption behind HM, Red Baron Farms?
Or are you going to acknowledge that that assumption is wrong?

Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems
Real climate

There is no science that debunks HMPG. Regardless of the topic of that link, the absence of evidence NEVER equals evidence of absence. Scientists crawling around on their hands and knees with scissors is NOT evidence HMPG doesn't work. It is nothing more than a poorly patched together, highly biased and completely unproven synthesis. Further, there isn't even an absence of evidence, although that link surely ignores any evidence that HMPG works (albeit somewhat limited). I have posted evidence here many times. While it may not be enough evidence to form a consensus as a general rule world wide without further studies, it is in fact evidence. There simply needs to be more case studies and more proof of concept trials in many more unique habitats and ecosystem climatic conditions to be sure the principles are sound world wide. That actually is happening as we speak, but the results we simply must wait for.

More importantly though. When Belsky's work is applied in the field, it fails. It has failed over and over. It failed in Africa, it has failed in the Western US. So while maybe to date it may still be considered the "scientific consensus", that consensus is not evidence driven, but instead bias driven and synthesis driven.

Here is just one example: Belsky was right out front in her crusade for the Hart Mountain Antelope Refuge. Cattle were first blamed then removed. Fencing was taken down so there would be no temptation to reintroduce them. Human access was greatly restricted. Culling programs instituted. Restocking programs instituted. Even burn programs instituted. Everything that has been tried has resulted in even more habitat deterioration and some species are now even approaching extirpation from the whole 251,000 acres.

Quote:
The refuge now has about a third as many mule deer (an estimated 800 to 1,000) as it did at the time it was established. Populations of sage grouse have declined as well from a peak of 8,750 in the 1940s to 800 to 1,000 currently.[1]
So we started with a problem, poor livestock management. Then to solve that problem the livestock were removed. But the result wasn't an improvement in habitat, it was a further deterioration of habitat. Then culling programs were instituted so as not to over impact the habitat, and even further deterioration of habitat proceeded. That pattern is EXACTLY the pattern Savory as a young wildlife biologist was dealing with in Africa. (ETA BTW Savory also hated cattle at that time and blamed them, just as Belsky did) The consensus doesn't work. It is based on too many assumptions and not enough actual evidence. The fact that the scientific consensus doesn't work in practice is the whole reason Savory developed Holistic Management.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 27th October 2014 at 03:32 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2014, 03:42 PM   #400
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 25,067
Question Red Baron Farms ignores science that debunks an assumption of HM

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...usual irrelevant wall of text totally ignoring my post snipped.....
Once more time: Red Baron Farms are you going to ignore the science that debunks an assumption of HM?
For that matter are you ever going to try to understand the simple English in my post:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
So other than Savory's magic stick (not the ) and your wishful thinking, you are going to ignore the science that debunks an assumption behind HM, Red Baron Farms?
Or are you going to acknowledge that that assumption is wrong?

Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems
Quote:
Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals.
ETA: Let me see, I mentioned the review on 22 October 2014 so that is 6 days and counting!
That is quite a long time not to understand basic English:
Question: Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?
Answer: Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals.
Conclusion: This assumption of HM is wrong.

Last edited by Reality Check; 27th October 2014 at 03:48 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:00 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.