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Old 15th June 2014, 06:38 PM   #241
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Remember to send a post card when you get to China!!!
Oh so now you are a conspiracy theorist!
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Old 15th June 2014, 07:42 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
1) ...
2)...
1) Where did I say that critics claims are true?
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
2) Where did I say that was my entire argument, etc.?

I dismiss the two videos that you cite because they are anecdotes not evidence, Red Baron Farms !
I dismiss any other anecdotes that you cite as supporting HM because they are anecdotes, not evidence, Red Baron Farms!

Please do not insult Savoy's HM by making it akin to homeopathy (lots of anecdotes, not evidence) or acupuncture (lots of anecdotes, some evidence that it works as good as a placebo) or any other practice supported by anecdotes but not scientific evidence.

I know that there is scientific evidence for and against Savoy's HM.
You should know that anecdotes are not scientific evidence for or against Savoy's HM, Red Baron Farms. Think about this: someone could cite all of the successful farmers in the world that are not using Savoy's HM and their unwritten "anecdotes" as evidence against Savoy's HM !
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Old 15th June 2014, 07:46 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Oh so now you are a conspiracy theorist!
Here the hole is the dependency on anecdotes - every anecdote you rely on is a shovel full of dirt that is steadily digging yourself into a hole until you arrive in China !
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Old 15th June 2014, 08:06 PM   #244
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A possible example of a lack of scientific evidence: A central part of Savoy's HM looks like that "In many regions, pastoralism and communal land use are blamed for environmental degradation caused by overgrazing. After years of research and experience, Savory came to understand this assertion was often wrong, and that sometimes removing animals actually made it worse".

So, Red Baron Farms, where is the scientific evidence for this?
An obvious "experiment"- what effects did the removal of the American plains bison have on the Great Plains? Did new deserts form? Existing deserts expand or contract? What would be Savoy's "postdictions" for these?

A less obvious "experiment": The reduction of large herbivores (elephants, antelopes, buffalo, rhino) from the African savannah. Did new deserts form? Existing deserts expand or contract? What would be Savoy's "postdictions" for these?
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Old 15th June 2014, 08:16 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Oh so now you are a conspiracy theorist!
wHOOSH!

When you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, Put the shovel down
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Old 15th June 2014, 08:34 PM   #246
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You seem to have forgotten the team working with Gabe Brown to collect the evidence in the educational vid include half a dozen or more Phd scientists. You can call that "anecdotal" if you wish. Who cares really? You have clearly established you have no knowledge of the subject at all beyond google and referencing a wiki page I wrote on the subject , and couldn't even recognize HM when presented to you in the simplest of terms. SARE means sustainable agriculture research and education. Not just research and not just education, but both. The research is done and the evidence is collected by professionals. I even gave you a list of a few since I doubted you could be bothered to actually investigate the evidence yourself. You can bad mouth it all you wish, but it only makes you sound like a fool.
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Old 15th June 2014, 08:53 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
You seem to have forgotten the team working with Gabe Brown to collect the evidence in the educational vid include half a dozen or more Phd scientists...snipped rant and insults....
Yes, Red Baron Farms - that video remains an anecdote.
When that team publishes the data in the scientific literature then it becomes scientific evidence. Amazing that you do not know this simple fact, Red Baron Farms !
If the analysis of that scientific evidence shows that it can only be produced from Savoy's HM being better then any other land management regime then we will have a bit of scientific evidence on HM's side.

ETA: And the "half a dozen or more Phd" is an irrelevant addition - it could be 1 person, it could be a hundred people, it could be a graduate student, it could be a professor with decades of experience. What matters is that the data is gathered properly, analyzed properly and published properly.

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Old 15th June 2014, 09:10 PM   #248
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Question Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI

The ignorance of thinking that I do not know what SARE stands for when I linked to their web site hear and found no SARE educational material about Savoy's HM on it (just a link to one SARE conference):
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
As for SARE - I get results from "Holistic management Savoy" that are mostly personal accounts, a conference event and books.
reminds me of the unsupported assertions:
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

And now:
Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM.

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Old 15th June 2014, 09:27 PM   #249
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Who cares if it is better than any other? It is significantly better than conventional. Gabe started with a SOM of 1.7-1.9% and a water infiltration rate of 0.5 inches per hour. Now his SOM is 5.1 -6.3% and has an infiltration rate of 8 inches per hour. He completely stopped fertilisers, insecticides and fungicides 100% and is down to 1 herbicide pass every 2-3 years on his cropland and never on the rangeland. AND he outproduce the county average by 25% or more. And feeds cattle on crop residue and cover crops for an additional production/profit stream! Probably isn't even close to the best that can be done, but it's one hell of a lot better than current so called BMP or GAP.
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Old 16th June 2014, 06:45 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Who cares if it is better than any other? It is significantly better than conventional. Gabe started with a SOM of 1.7-1.9% and a water infiltration rate of 0.5 inches per hour. Now his SOM is 5.1 -6.3% and has an infiltration rate of 8 inches per hour. He completely stopped fertilisers, insecticides and fungicides 100% and is down to 1 herbicide pass every 2-3 years on his cropland and never on the rangeland. AND he outproduce the county average by 25% or more. And feeds cattle on crop residue and cover crops for an additional production/profit stream! Probably isn't even close to the best that can be done, but it's one hell of a lot better than current so called BMP or GAP.
In which journal were his results published?
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Old 16th June 2014, 10:10 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
In which journal were his results published?
As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal. However, the same team that has been working on Gabe's farm have started a project that probably will be published at some point. It varies because instead of a working with a farmer cooperator, this is owned directly by the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. It is called the Menoken farm soil foodweb project. Here is the project's funding request, and it is currently operational: link

PS:Gabe's case study as well as a couple other case studies are also part of the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District, but the Menoken Farm is owned and managed directly instead of through a cooperating farmer.
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Old 16th June 2014, 10:33 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal. However, the same team that has been working on Gabe's farm have started a project that probably will be published at some point. It varies because instead of a working with a farmer cooperator, this is owned directly by the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. It is called the Menoken farm soil foodweb project. Here is the project's funding request, and it is currently operational: link

PS:Gabe's case study as well as a couple other case studies are also part of the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District, but the Menoken Farm is owned and managed directly instead of through a cooperating farmer.
Peer reviewed or it didn't happen.
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Old 16th June 2014, 11:05 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Peer reviewed or it didn't happen.
Was your birth peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? Show me or you didn't happen and I can safely ignore your trolling from here on out.
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Old 16th June 2014, 03:56 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Who cares if it is better than any other? ...snipped anecdote....
And your scientific evidence is, Red Baron Farms?
You have an anecdote about (supposed because not published!) improvements on one ranch because the rancher decided to pay attention to improving their ranch !

And then you ask the rather dumb question - "Who cares if it is better than any other?"! It seems better than whatever he was doing before ! The best way to see if a method improves land quality is to test it against other methods.
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Old 16th June 2014, 06:39 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
And your scientific evidence is, Red Baron Farms?
You have an anecdote about (supposed because not published!) improvements on one ranch because the rancher decided to pay attention to improving their ranch !

And then you ask the rather dumb question - "Who cares if it is better than any other?"! It seems better than whatever he was doing before ! The best way to see if a method improves land quality is to test it against other methods.
I gave you one published paper, and a trial that is set to be published, and very strong anecdotal evidence that was collected by trained professional observers. Not to mention Savory himself is a published scientist and he built his work based partly on further developing published science. Your bickering over this is petty. Get over it. It doesn't have to be perfect to be much better than current models, and it is.
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Old 16th June 2014, 06:54 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal.
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I gave you one published paper....
Does not compute.


Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...and very strong anecdotal evidence....
Ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!!

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...that was collected by trained professional observers. Not to mention Savory himself is a published scientist and he built his work based partly on further developing published science. Your bickering over this is petty. Get over it. It doesn't have to be perfect to be much better than current models, and it is.
Meaningless drivel.
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Old 16th June 2014, 07:40 PM   #258
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Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I gave you one published paper,
I see no sign of a published paper "given" to me Red Baron Farms.
So:

Red Baron Farms, Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results.

And what does this assertion say about
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal.
.

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Old 16th June 2014, 07:58 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Here is the project's funding request, and it is currently operational: link.
Looks like another irrelevancy from you, Red Baron Farms: Here is a project's funding request that seems to have nothing to do with Savoy's HM !
Scanning through the document indicates no mention of Savoy or even holistic.

The Menoken farm project is about restoring what looks like degraded land (page 4 of the request). If the description is typical of the County and includes Gabe Brown's then it is no surprise that a change in management style improved the land. Any sensible change would have done so.

ETA: Gabe Brown started with:
Quote:
Gabe Brown was drawn into agriculture while in high school. After college Gabe and his wife Shelly took over management of her parent’s ranch, which had seen very little diversity. The pastures had been grazed season long with cow/calf pairs and the heavily tilled cropland had only seen monocultures of small grains for many decades. The lack of diversification turned out to be an issue for the Browns because three years of intense hail and one year of drought forced them deep into debt and into off-farm jobs just to make ends meet.

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Old 17th June 2014, 02:11 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Does not compute.
Of course not. You haven't been paying attention.
The Teague study, Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie, is on holistic managed land in Texas compared to other systems. How do I know this? Because I read the whole study, check all the references, checked everything I possibly could about the study including researching the land and the landowners in the study! Clint Josey for example is (or was) actually on the board of directors of HMI. That's just one example and that's Texas.

There is another ongoing study area in Burleigh County, ND The Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. Evidence for the work being done there is available, but no scientific studies published yet. The evidence is gathered by a team of scientists sent to accredited labs and they specifically started the Menoken farm for that purpose, but the scientific study is still in progress. Gabe Brown on the other hand is a cooperating farmer in ND. He is the practitioner of Holistic Management that was able to dramatically improve his severely degraded farm with HM. Dramatic enough to gain nationwide interest from said scientists.

In simple terms, Gabe tried HM. It worked. So that brought the scientists. They collected data for a few years. They even checked it with other farmers by getting them to change. That worked too. They were very impressed. They decided to run a proper publishable study in the same county so they could rigorously start from the beginning with degraded land with all the proper controls. That is currently funded and has been a couple years, but the study is not published in a scientific study yet. You can find preliminary results with the USDA NRCS and SARE, but nothing published in a science journal...yet.

Go to Arizona. Terry Wheeler is also a formally trained professional and also used HM to restore land. link In this case not land that was degraded by conventional agriculture, but instead land that was degraded by mining. Worked consistently for him too. No scientific studies though.

These are all evidences that HM works to restore degraded and desertified land and all back up Savory's claims. One is published in a scientific Journal, and one will be published, and one probably never will be. But all the evidence was collected by trained professionals. So even in the case of unpublished anecdotal evidence, it is very strong evidence. There are literally hundreds of weaker anecdotal evidences that can be found that HM works consistently, (Like the large number of ranchers using HM receiving awards) but I chose these because they are strong evidences.

I strongly feel the reason you and Reality Check and others are making such ridiculously silly arguments is that you are lazy. You haven't read the studies both for and against thoroughly. You haven't checked the evidence, or the references, or the credentials of the people involved. You haven't even taken the time to learn HM, even though it is free for the asking.

As I said more than once here. Total woo. Your arguments are purely made from ignorance.
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Old 17th June 2014, 03:25 AM   #261
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So when you said...

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal.
...you were...mistaken? Confused? Wrong?

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
One is published in a scientific Journal, and one will be published, and one probably never will be.
One wonders why? Didn't match the outcome they were looking for?

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
But all the evidence was collected by trained professionals.
You keep saying this. "Trained professionals" in what? Perhaps an appeal to authority?

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
So even in the case of unpublished anecdotal evidence, it is very strong evidence.
I have very strong evidence that a Martian is living in my closet. So I guess we can conclude that Martians are real!!!

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
There are literally hundreds of weaker anecdotal evidences that can be found that HM works consistently, (Like the large number of ranchers using HM receiving awards) but I chose these because they are strong evidences.
Oh, I didn't realize ranchers had won awards!!! That should be all the evidence anyone needs!!!
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Old 17th June 2014, 04:02 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
So when you said...

Quote:
As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal.
...you were...mistaken? Confused? Wrong?

No but obviously you are, even after a detailed explanation.



One wonders why? Didn't match the outcome they were looking for?
No, exceeded expectations in every respect, and Terry doesn't need a scientific study to confirm that. He did it himself. I suppose the Wright Brothers never flew a plane either, because their powered and controlled first flight never happened either. After all it wasn't published in a science journal yet. By your logic it must have been magic until "peer reviewed"



You keep saying this. "Trained professionals" in what? Perhaps an appeal to authority?
Perhaps if you actually read the links you would know!




I have very strong evidence that a Martian is living in my closet. So I guess we can conclude that Martians are real!!!





Oh, I didn't realize ranchers had won awards!!! That should be all the evidence anyone needs!!!
Of course you didn't realise it. There is very little on the subject you realise.
Would it be too much to ask for you to actually take the time to educate yourself on the subject before attacking it? Or is that against troll rules?

ETA: You seem to have a fixation on the term anecdotal. In science anecdotal actually has a different meaning than in logic.
Quote:
In science, definitions of anecdotal evidence include:

"information that is not based on facts or careful study"[9]
"reports or observations of usually unscientific observers"[10]
"casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis"[11]
"information passed along by word-of-mouth but not documented scientifically"
By these definitions the evidence is certainly NOT anecdotal. The information is based on facts and careful study. The observers are trained professionals. The observations are not "casual" or mere "indications". They have been documented scientifically.

The one grey area is peer review. Only one of the three examples I gave has been published in a science journal and peer reviewed. So if you wish to call the first Texas example anecdotal, you are dead wrong. If you wish to call the second ND example anecdotal you can...but as a case study it is VERY strong anecdotal evidence and invites further study, not dismissal. And same goes for the third in Arizona.
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Old 17th June 2014, 04:20 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Would it be too much to ask for you to actually take the time to educate yourself on the subject before attacking it? Or is that against troll rules?
Could you re-edit your post so it makes sense? You're quoting yourself. It's incomprehensible.

Short version: tl;dr
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Old 17th June 2014, 10:29 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post

Short version: tl;dr
OK fair enough. You, for whatever reason, don't have the time or simply don't want to investigate the evidence. It's too long. That's fair. We all have our topics of interest and study. But what I don't get is what compels you to attack something that you have such limited knowledge. Is that critical thinking? I personally don't think so at all.

I know the first thing I did when I found out about HM, I went straight to Briske and read the study most commonly used to criticise Savory. I checked the references. It's a review, so it took a lot of time. But I started finding seriously flawed studies in that review if they are to be used to refute Savory. Lots of VERY small plots, even potted grass plants in one case. I couldn't find any reason to believe they had anything at all to do with HM. Then I found Teagues paper. First thing I noticed was that he was also a scientist in the 2008 Briske paper. So that really intrigued me. I therefor looked VERY closely at what he had to say. Here was a published paper NOT by Savory, that confirmed many of his claims. Importantly the land was actually under HM with proper controls against other management systems. No potted plants anywhere. So on the basis of that I decided to really dig deeper and educate myself. It was hard because at that point I had to dig up everything myself. The wikipage had only two references and both of them by Savory and his wife. So I saved my research and wrote a wikipage with proper referencing. And yes, I even included criticism that I personally didn't agree. I did this so anyone trying to research it themselves wouldn't have to spend months digging up the information. The references are there, about 45 both published hard evidence and anecdotal. All you have to do is go through them one by one, use critical thinking, and draw your own conclusion, instead of relying on others to do your thinking for you.
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Old 17th June 2014, 10:52 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
OK fair enough. You, for whatever reason, don't have the time or simply don't want to investigate the evidence. It's too long. That's fair. We all have our topics of interest and study. But what I don't get is what compels you to attack something that you have such limited knowledge.
I don't have much knowledge of homeopathy either. Nor do I want to. I know enough to know it's nonsense, just like "holistic" grazing.
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Old 17th June 2014, 11:02 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
I don't have much knowledge of homeopathy either. Nor do I want to. I know enough to know it's nonsense, just like "holistic" grazing.
Aha! Confirmation bias based on a connotation of an equivocation. That's not critical thinking either.
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Old 17th June 2014, 11:06 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
I don't have much knowledge of homeopathy either. Nor do I want to. I know enough to know it's nonsense, just like "holistic" grazing.
That's not entirely fair, HM may, in fact, work better than some other methods, but RBF has not been a good defender of it. Arguing in circles and writing off all criticism as "propaganda" does not a well reasoned argument make.
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Old 17th June 2014, 11:14 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
That's not entirely fair, HM may, in fact, work better than some other methods, but RBF has not been a good defender of it. Arguing in circles and writing off all criticism as "propaganda" does not a well reasoned argument make.
I haven't written off all criticism as propaganda. Only propaganda blogs.

There is some criticism that is scientific. Not much. Easily refuted. But I haven't called it propaganda.

There is also a level of uncertainty. This is because while HM has shown consistent results, it hasn't been tested on enough various different situations to qualify as useable universally on desertified land. So far it works where it has been tried, under the conditions it has been tried, but it hasn't even come close to having been tried under the full spectrum of "desertified land".
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Old 17th June 2014, 02:22 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Aha! Confirmation bias based on a connotation of an equivocation. That's not critical thinking either.
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Old 17th June 2014, 02:27 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
That's not entirely fair, HM may, in fact, work better than some other methods, but RBF has not been a good defender of it. Arguing in circles and writing off all criticism as "propaganda" does not a well reasoned argument make.
Exactly.

Over the years we've have various woo-woo's come here to promote all manners of nonsense. Whether it's because it's nonsense, or they're just not good at defending their nonsense is irrelevant. To date, no one has fallen for any of it, but that doesn't keep them from coming. I expect that trend to continue.
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Old 17th June 2014, 04:52 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by elbe View Post
That's not entirely fair, HM may, in fact, work better than some other methods, but RBF has not been a good defender of it. Arguing in circles and writing off all criticism as "propaganda" does not a well reasoned argument make.
I agree with you, elbe.

My expectation is that Savoy's HM should be at least as good as existing land management techniques for the simple reason that it looks as if existing land management techniques are a core part of HM.
Rotational grazing - good (a bit surprising to me that US ranchers seem to just grasping this concept).
Soil management - good.
Vegetation management - good.
Water management - good.
Insect management - good.
etc.
From my limited knowledge of farming this is all standard land management here in NZ. So I have no problems with any claim that HM can improve land quality. In fact my comment about those claims would be: well Duh!

The problem comes with claims that HM is better than existing land management techniques. That Savoys additions create measurable improvements. The science is mixed on this.

I do have a problem with the label of "holistic" - this has been badly contaminated by "holistic health" (which can mix woo like homeopathy with some actual medicine).
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Old 17th June 2014, 04:59 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I haven't written off all criticism as propaganda. Only propaganda blogs.
This seems a bit contradictory, Red Baron Farms: If blogs criticizing HM are propaganda then you also should treat blogs supporting HM as propaganda. That makes all of those anecdotes you like propaganda.

And why are you taking about something called "desertified land"? Was Gabe Brown's ranch "desertified land"? Were all of the trials done using "desertified land"?
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Old 17th June 2014, 05:03 PM   #273
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What I find most questionable in the labelling of them as "proganda blogs" is that I don't recall there ever being any support for the claim, just an assertion that they were propaganda.

And I'll be honest, unless they have an army of men marching down a staircase shooting civilians it's just not propaganda in my mind.
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Old 17th June 2014, 05:21 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
From my limited knowledge of farming this is all standard land management here in NZ.
It also is in the US.
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Old 20th June 2014, 05:57 AM   #275
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http://www.inexactchange.org/blog/20...limate-change/

Originally Posted by Allan Savory
You’ll find the scientific method never discovers anything. Observant, creative people make discoveries. But the scientific method protects us from cranks like me.
Savory apparently sees the scientific method as an obstacle to progress, rather than a tool for achieving it.
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Old 20th June 2014, 08:01 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
http://www.inexactchange.org/blog/20...limate-change/



Savory apparently sees the scientific method as an obstacle to progress, rather than a tool for achieving it.
You haven't figured out that was a joke? Even the propaganda blog you quoted from understood that!

Quote:
the intended irony of this statement has not escaped me
But you both missed the point. Creative hardworking people develop breakthroughs. And the scientific method confirms whether it works or not. It generally doesn't work the other way around. That doesn't mean there was no science before it was developed. Most Savory's work rested on the shoulders of a scientist by the name of André Voisin. And Savory himself used the scientific method in his own experimental trials as he developed it, to confirm whether the things he was trying were working or not. Science has a role, but science never replaces human creativity. It is simply a tool.
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Old 20th June 2014, 09:19 PM   #277
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I would be selling my perpetual motion machine if it wasn't for those meddling scientists!!!
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Old 20th June 2014, 10:01 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
I would be selling my perpetual motion machine if it wasn't for those meddling scientists!!!
No different that what you are trying to sell here. You still have yet to offer any rebuttal to "Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie"

Funny how you ignore science in favor of propaganda blogs. Face it. I'll not be swayed by your woo.
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Old 20th June 2014, 10:08 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
This seems a bit contradictory, Red Baron Farms: If blogs criticizing HM are propaganda then you also should treat blogs supporting HM as propaganda. That makes all of those anecdotes you like propaganda.

And why are you taking about something called "desertified land"? Was Gabe Brown's ranch "desertified land"? Were all of the trials done using "desertified land"?
Pretty much all agricultural land in the Western US has gone under some degree of desertification/degradation. It's a huge problem. In fact even the land I am leasing this year for my trial is starting incredibly poor. Most people wouldn't even call it arable.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
From my limited knowledge of farming this is all standard land management here in NZ. So I have no problems with any claim that HM can improve land quality. In fact my comment about those claims would be: well Duh!
I did mention that. But took all sorts of flack for making unsubstantiated claims.
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Old 21st June 2014, 06:01 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Funny how you ignore science in favor of propaganda blogs. Face it. I'll not be swayed by your woo.


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