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Old 21st June 2014, 06:35 AM   #281
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post


You think an irony meter and a dog laughing is a good substitute for a published scientific study? Seriously? After we already established you main objection to HM is the connotation to to term "holistic" because some other unscrupulous people misused the term? Exactly how much woo are we here at JREF supposed to put up with?
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Old 22nd June 2014, 03:42 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...snipped irrelevant stuff....
My questions actually were, Red Baron Farms:
* Why are the blogs supporting HM (the anecdotes you like) not propaganda?
* Why are you taking about something called "desertified land" (IOW define "desertified land", how can we tell the difference between that and overgrazed or degraded land?)?
* Was Gabe Brown's ranch "desertified land"?
* Were all of the trials done using "desertified land"?

Also:
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

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Old 22nd June 2014, 04:58 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
My questions actually were, Red Baron Farms:
* Why are the blogs supporting HM (the anecdotes you like) not propaganda?
* Why are you taking about something called "desertified land" (IOW define "desertified land", how can we tell the difference between that and overgrazed or degraded land?)?
* Was Gabe Brown's ranch "desertified land"?
* Were all of the trials done using "desertified land"?
It is a propaganda blog if it uses propaganda. Whether it actually supports or criticizes HM has no bearing on the matter. Have they purposely tried to sway public opinion by misleading them? If yes, it is propaganda. It most certainly is possible to criticize HM without using propaganda. I have my own criticisms of HM. But I wouldn't try to purposely mislead in order to do it. It's a key difference. You for example used propaganda. You purposely tried to mislead people with the previously noted logic fallacy involved with the connotation of an equivocation.

Desertification is a type of land degradation in which a relatively dry land region becomes increasingly arid, typically losing its bodies of water as well as vegetation and wildlife. Farming most certainly can cause desertification. Gabe brown most certainly is in a relatively dry region and the land was very deteriorated. But his land is only a part of a larger region. On his land he has reversed the desertification process, but it isn't enough. There needs to be a region wide change. His results are published, by USDA, but not by a science journal. That's what I said from the start. So by the strictest use of the term, it would be anecdotal until the results are published in a science journal. However, as a USDA case study, many professional scientists have reviewed the evidence, and are even collecting the evidence. This may not be a formal "peer review" in the sense of a science journal, but it is roughly equivalent. So if you insist on saying it is "anecdotal" evidence, then you need to qualify that statement with "strong", so as not to mislead people into thinking it is unscientific woo.
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Old 22nd June 2014, 06:11 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
...many professional scientists have reviewed the evidence...
Yes. Even in studies that are rejected, "many professional scientists" review the evidence. That's why they toss them out. Do you really not know this?
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Old 22nd June 2014, 07:07 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
It is a propaganda blog if it uses propaganda.
So the blogs you personally decide use propaganda are propaganda blogs.
And if I decide that all of the anecdotes that you cite are propaganda then they are propaganda also, Red Baron Farms ?

And lying about me using propaganda is not good, Red Baron Farms, .
I pointed what you should know - the science is mixed, there is no evidence that HM is better than standard good practices, the Savoy brittleness scale is a subject and quite secret scale, the very obvious fact that the plural of anecdote is not data, etc.!

You are just guessing that Gabe Brown's ranch was "desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!

You are just guessing that all of the trials were on"desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!

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Old 22nd June 2014, 07:10 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Yes. Even in studies that are rejected, "many professional scientists" review the evidence. That's why they toss them out. Do you really not know this?
Of course I know that. But They are not rejecting what Gabe Brown is doing or the evidence it is working, they are teaching others how to do it too. They wouldn't do that if there wasn't strong evidence. And of course there is strong scientific evidence as well as strong anecdotal evidence. I have given you examples of both.

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
So the blogs you personally decide use propaganda are propaganda blogs.
And if I decide that all of the anecdotes that you cite are propaganda then they are propaganda also, Red Baron Farms ?

You are just guessing that Gabe Brown's ranch was "desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!

You are just guessing that all of the trials were on"desertified land" and so making the improvements into what I said they could be - the improvements that we would expect from standard land management!
Not even close. No where near standard land management. It may be soon..... Seeing as how USDA, land grant university extensions, and private consultants are all actively educating people about soil health and how to obtain it. But standard now? No.......... Not even listed on GAP/BMP yet. How many 2,000 acre farms do you think don't use any nitrogen ferts on their corn? Most farmers still think it is impossible!
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Old 22nd June 2014, 09:33 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
But They are not rejecting what Gabe Brown is doing...
...snipped usual irrelevant stuff...
Scientists in general have not been presented with any evidence that what Gabe Brown is doing has anything to do with HM:
Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

Every scientist in the world is not working on Gabe Brown's ranch !
The fact that some scientists are collaborating with Gabe Brown does not mean that
* these scientist] think that HM works - they could be waiting to analyze the results as any competent scientist should (no prejudged conclusions).
* that HM works just because a few or even a dozen scientists believe that it works.

As for HM itself: Holistic management
Quote:
One limitation of any land management system is that economically and politically powerful users can easily quantify and argue their needs. It is harder to define the economic value of ecosystem services and, therefore, the ecosystems and people most dependent on them for their subsistence become voiceless and often neglected users. In theory Holistic Management framework addresses this issue, but it is not always seen in the field.[28] Another common criticism of holistic planned grazing is that while farmers and ranchers around the world believe that it works for them and they have even received awards,[2][40][41][42][43] the majority of range scientists have not been able to experimentally confirm that intensive grazing systems similar to those at the center of holistic management show a benefit, and claim that managers' reports of success are anecdotal.[44][45]
Easy way to test whether a large number of range scientists support HM is to list the papers about HM, Red Baron Farms, and see they are in the hundreds or more as a widely supported method should be.
Or are the papers about HM from a small group of range scientists?

Actually that is one thing missing from this thread, Red Baron Farms: a single post listing the papers for and against HM. All I have seen is a handful of papers, not the hundreds that I expect.

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Old 22nd June 2014, 09:48 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
My expectation is that Savoy's HM should be at least as good as existing land management techniques for the simple reason that it looks as if existing land management techniques are a core part of HM.
Rotational grazing - good (a bit surprising to me that US ranchers seem to just grasping this concept).
Soil management - good.
Vegetation management - good.
Water management - good.
Insect management - good.
etc.
From my limited knowledge of farming this is all standard land management here in NZ. So I have no problems with any claim that HM can improve land quality. In fact my comment about those claims would be: well Duh!
This is what I would expect standard land management would be in the US.
But Red Baron Farms if your opinion is that US ranchers are incompetent enough that standard land management is not commonly used ("No where near standard land management") then so be it.

USDA, land grant university extensions, and private consultants should be educating ranchers about good, verified land management practices if only because people take up ranching for the first time. Teaching even long-time ranchers about good, verified land management practices is a good idea.
But hosting a few web pages and YouTube videos about HM anecdotes is not education - it is covering their bases at best, propaganda at worst.

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Old 22nd June 2014, 09:59 PM   #289
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Sure it wouldn't NECESSARILY mean the results were better than standard BMP. But then again, if they were not better, then they wouldn't have invited Gabe to speak at the National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health.

Quote:
News Release

Opening Sessions of the National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health

Watch opening sessions of the National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health, held on Tuesday, Feb. 18 in Omaha, Nebl, and broadcasted live to 230 locations across the country as part of the Cover Crops and Soil Health Forums. Speakers include USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) Chief Jason Weller; Howard G. Buffett, of the Howard G. Buffett Foundation; and Ray Gaesser, an Iowa farmer and president of the American Soybean Association. Following them is a panel of farmer leaders, including Dan DeSutter (Indiana), Dave Brandt (Ohio), Clay Mitchell (Iowa) and Gabe Brown (North Dakota).
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Old 23rd June 2014, 02:58 PM   #290
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Question Were all of the farmers invited because they performed better than standard BMP

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
But then again, if they were not better, then they wouldn't have invited Gabe to speak they wouldn't have invited Gabe to speak at the URL="http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/ne/newsroom/releases/?cid=STELPRDB1246813"]National Conference on Cover Crops and Soil Health[/url].
Nice propaganda, Red Baron Farms
And a bit of a fantasy - there is no scientific evidence that Gabe's results are better than standard BMP. You have presented no evidence that this was the reason that he was invited to this conference.

Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?

ETA: Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?
All I can find is what looks like standard "cover crops can be integrated with livestock operations". Integration that is decades old here in NZ.

P.S.Red Baron Farms
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

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Old 23rd June 2014, 03:36 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post

ETA: Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?
All I can find is what looks like standard "cover crops can be integrated with livestock operations". Integration that is decades old here in NZ.
P.S.Red Baron Farms
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.
You have cognitive dissonance? You post it is standard decades old there in NZ. Then post you need evidence? What part are you missing? You don't believe it is practiced down there? Or you do believe it is? Or are you still caught up in petty word games like Skrut?

In USA it is not standard procedure to graze cover crops. Nor is it standard to raise cover crops in 4-20 species blends. But to do both...raise cover crops in multi species blends, and also include them in a grazing rotation, is nearly unheard of until the Brown Ranch started doing it, the NRCS got wind of it, Scientists measured the positive effects, and then the technique was promoted by the USDA SARE/NRCS. It is still not the standard BMP here in USA. But I am glad to hear you NZers are decades ahead of us.

But don't get too big headed. The Aussies are even further ahead of both you and us. They skipped the planting of cover crops altogether and use perennials.

Quote:
But there’s more to it than just cropping. Introduce some herbivores to that same paddock, after the crop has been harvested, and the nutrient cycle really starts to get interesting. By using Holistic Management techniques of herbivores like cattle or sheep, the biomass and available nutrients of that pasture builds even faster. Which means the topsoil, in turn, also builds at a rapid rate.

Anything that actually builds topsoil (and there’s not many agricultural systems that do) is sequestering carbon. Meaning pasture cropping is, on top of everything else, a carbon sink technique. Which is in marked contrast to agriculture as we know it.

So, to summarize hugely on what is a complex and exciting subject; pasture cropping builds topsoil while simultaneously producing a grain crop, improving a perennial pasture and also feeding up some livestock and sequestering carbon while the system is at it. Not bad for one paddock! Why pasture cropping is such a Big Deal
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Old 23rd June 2014, 05:10 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
You have cognitive dissonance?
You have total lack of reading comprehension?
I mention that
Quote:
All I can find is what looks like standard "cover crops can be integrated with livestock operations". Integration that is decades old here in NZ
IOW the subject of Gabe Brown's presentation is (as far as I know) well established agricultural science here in NZ.

Before that I ask for evidence about Gabe Brown's presence at the conference .
Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?
Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?

After that I ask the questions that you have been avoiding for days or weeks :
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

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Old 23rd June 2014, 05:18 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
In USA it is not standard procedure to graze cover crops. Nor is it standard to raise cover crops in 4-20 species blends. But to do both...raise cover crops in multi species blends, and also include them in a grazing rotation, is nearly unheard of until the Brown Ranch started doing it, the NRCS got wind of it, Scientists measured the positive effects, and then the technique was promoted by the USDA SARE/NRCS.
More unsupported assertions:
Please provide the evidence for
* the Brown Ranch was one of the first ranches to grow multi species cover crops for grazing in the US.
* NRCS "got wind of" the Brown Ranch results.
* then the technique was promoted by the USDA SARE/NRCS (conference presentations and anecdotes hosted by them is not "promotion, it is acknowledgement) based on the Brown Ranch results. For example list the USDA SARE/NRCS educational programs that are promoting this technique based on the Brown Ranch results.

USDA SARE/NRCS does have material "promoting" multi species cover crops for grazing as drought relief, e.g. in Idaho

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Old 23rd June 2014, 05:34 PM   #294
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Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?
He planted "several years of a diverse cover crop mixture containing legumes, tap roots, and more." And it looks like his cattle graze the cover crops on rotation.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 06:28 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?
He planted "several years of a diverse cover crop mixture containing legumes, tap roots, and more." And it looks like his cattle graze the cover crops on rotation.
See how fast it spreads? I can name several more that took Gabe's example and went with it if you like. And they didn't wait for a published scientific paper either. Watching their neighbor's success was enough. The scientists will catch up to us farmers eventually
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Old 23rd June 2014, 08:24 PM   #296
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Question Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
See how fast it spreads?...)
That was not the question, Red Baron Farms, so I will state it so that it can be added to the growing list of question you are unable to answer:
Restatement of "Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?"

Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) started using multi-species cover crops with grazing several years before 2012. This implies that he started using this technique before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.

Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
The Gabe Brown YouTube videos and couple of conference web pages seem to be since 2012.

ETA: They are almost neighbors - Mandan and Bismarck are 8.5 miles apart.

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Old 23rd June 2014, 08:45 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That was not the question, Red Baron Farms, so I will state it so that it can be added to the growing list of question you are unable to answer:
Restatement of "Where does the 2012 results from Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) fit in with this time line?"

Ken Miller of Mandan, North Dakota (No-Till Case Study, Miller Farm: Restoring Grazing Land with Cover Crops) started using multi-species cover crops with grazing several years before 2012. This implies that he started using this technique before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.

Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
The Gabe Brown YouTube videos and couple of conference web pages seem to be since 2012.

ETA: They are almost neighbors - Mandan and Bismarck are 8.5 miles apart.
You answered your own question? The whole region is having the same problem. In fact the whole country is. It is a result of conventional agriculture here in USA. So when a farmer makes a significant breakthrough, the neighbors are the first to know. From there it spreads. Eventually the scientists will catch up, but it is not scientists that developed it. Gabe did. Since it is repeatable, why wait for the published paper in a science journal? By then many of his neighbors would have lost their farms, like Gabe almost did. Necessity is the mother of invention. Ask yourself this. That area has been experiencing droughts. So when one farmer gets a crop, and all his neighbors fields are stricken by the drought, don't you think they'll be asking what Gabe was doing real fast? something like: "Hi Gabe, couldn't help but notice we had only 1 inch of rain this year so far but you managed a good crop anyway without irrigation. How is that possible?" Gabe replies, "Come take a look at my soil...."

But of course this is all anecdotal. The scientists haven't "proven" it yet. Bumblebee fallacy all over again!
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Old 24th June 2014, 03:48 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
The whole region is having the same problem. ...
That was not my question, Red Baron Farms:
Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
No speculations - actual facts please. Or the maybe the answer is that you do not know.
It is reasonable that Ken Miller heard rumors about the Gabe Brown results because they live relatively close together. But Ken Miller started using a diverse cover crop for grazing several years before 2012 (around 2007?). That could be before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.
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Old 24th June 2014, 05:21 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That was not my question, Red Baron Farms:
Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
No speculations - actual facts please. Or the maybe the answer is that you do not know.
It is reasonable that Ken Miller heard rumors about the Gabe Brown results because they live relatively close together. But Ken Miller started using a diverse cover crop for grazing several years before 2012 (around 2007?). That could be before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.
Ken started traditional no till in 2001 on 250 acres in irrigated
crops and 128 acres in dryland crops. He also had only 2 paddocks for grazing on 1000 acres. So he was operating pretty close to standard BMP. Even a bit progressive by US standards of the time with the no till. But his results were not good. Then he learned about HM and has split his grazing into 38 paddocks and plans on splitting them even more. He also started cover crop mixes on the cropland for forage in 2006. He is now converting them to pasture.

Ken is staff (grazing specialist) at the Burleigh County Conservation District and so is Gabe.
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Old 24th June 2014, 05:23 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That was not my question, Red Baron Farms:
Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
No speculations - actual facts please. Or the maybe the answer is that you do not know.
It is reasonable that Ken Miller heard rumors about the Gabe Brown results because they live relatively close together. But Ken Miller started using a diverse cover crop for grazing several years before 2012 (around 2007?). That could be before Gabe Brown's results were widely known.
Ken started traditional no till in 2001 on 250 acres in irrigated crops and 128 acres in dryland crops. He also had only 2 paddocks for grazing on 1000 acres. So he was operating pretty close to standard BMP. Even a bit progressive by US standards of the time with the no till. But his results were not good. Then he learned about HM and has split his grazing into 38 paddocks and plans on splitting them even more. He also started cover crop mixes on the cropland for forage in 2006. He is now converting them to pasture.

Ken is staff (grazing specialist) at the Burleigh County Conservation District and Gabe is (or was) a supervisor there. They both use Holistic management and I am sure they talk! In fact they give talks together!

Quote:
The Burleigh County Experience:
Sustainable Cropping and Grazing Systems based on
Soil Health
NORTH DAKOTA SOIL HEALTH
CENTER OF SUSTAINABILITY
PREVIOUS MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS
......CURRENT MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS
Fragmented management......................Holistic management
Focused on symptoms (erosion).............Soil health focus
High impact/mechanically tilled systems...Low impact/no-tillage systems
Low diversity cropping systems..............High diversity cropping systems
Non-integrated cropping/grazing systems.Integrated cropping/grazing systems
Mismanaged segregated rangeland..........Rangeland/cropland integration
Decreased bio-diversity........................Increased bio-diversity
Diminished water quantity/quality...........Improved water quantity/quality
High use of petroleum based products.....Low use of petroleum based products
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Old 24th June 2014, 09:29 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Ken started traditional no till in 2001 on 250 acres in irrigated crops and 128 acres in dryland crops.
Still no real answer to the question but you seem to be hinting that Ken Miller started changing techniques without looking at Brown's results - were they available in 2001?
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That was not my question, Red Baron Farms:
Red Baron Farms: How Ken Miller learn of the unpublished Gabe Brown results?
No speculations - actual facts please. Or the maybe the answer is that you do not know.

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Old 24th June 2014, 09:37 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Ken is staff (grazing specialist) at the Burleigh County Conservation District and Gabe is (or was) a supervisor there.
A undated PDF that does not mention Ken Miller's knowledge of Brown's results () is not evidence of when Ken Miler knew about Brown's results.

And now we have a new unsupported assertion!
Red Baron Farms (25 June 2014): Please show that the "Holistic management" phrase in that PDF is actually Savoy's Holistic Management (without the required trade mark sign!).
They both may use holistic management in lower case and nothing to do with HM.

ETA: Actually Ken Miler may be a HM convert and know all the HM secrets (like the brittleness scale) as this 2012 conference states.

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Old 25th June 2014, 03:54 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
A undated PDF that does not mention Ken Miller's knowledge of Brown's results () is not evidence of when Ken Miler knew about Brown's results.

And now we have a new unsupported assertion!
Red Baron Farms (25 June 2014): Please show that the "Holistic management" phrase in that PDF is actually Savoy's Holistic Management (without the required trade mark sign!).
They both may use holistic management in lower case and nothing to do with HM.

ETA: Actually Ken Miler may be a HM convert and know all the HM secrets (like the brittleness scale) as this 2012 conference states.
Holistic Management®

There is the trade mark on the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District web site, just so you know I am not using an equivocation. But you have to understand. The trade mark is to prevent co-opting of the name by scam artists. Just like what happened with organic, just like what happened with short duration grazing, even the Briske study which claims to address Savory's system, but doesn't. Everything about HM is free for the asking. The trade mark isn't for making the process secret or for selling the system. That's why HMI is a non profit. The ® is purely to maintain quality control. To stop some jerk from claiming he is teaching HM, when he isn't, and giving HM a bad reputation. You know? That previously mentioned co-opting of the name holistic by homeopathic scam artists in the medical field? Savory didn't want that happening in HMPG. But for a farmer to use HM..that's free.
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Old 25th June 2014, 05:16 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Ken started traditional no till in 2001 on 250 acres in irrigated crops and 128 acres in dryland crops. Even a bit progressive by US standards of the time with the no till.
Wow. He started no till in 2001 and you think he's "progressive"?

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Old 25th June 2014, 05:31 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Wow. He started no till in 2001 and you think he's "progressive"?
Yeah. By 2009 (8 years later) still only 35% of the Farmers in the USA were using no till.
Quote:
The data show that approximately 35.5 percent of U.S. cropland planted to eight major crops, or 88 million acres, had no tillage operations in 2009. link
So 8 years later, when still only 35% of the farmers were even doing the standard no till, he was already using multispecies cover crops and integrated livestock grazing, which dramatically reduces chemical inputs. Way ahead of the curve.

But your ignorance of that fact is not surprising. You have consistently displayed ignorance of agricultural issues all through these forums.
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Old 25th June 2014, 01:11 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
But your ignorance of that fact is not surprising. You have consistently displayed ignorance of agricultural issues all through these forums.
Says the guy who's never even met a farmer.

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Old 25th June 2014, 03:01 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
There is the trade mark on the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District web site...
Who cares about a bit of text on their web site when the question is about the PDF that you linked to Red Baron Farms
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Red Baron Farms (25 June 2014): Please show that the "Holistic management" phrase in that PDF is actually Savoy's Holistic Management (without the required trade mark sign!).
However thanks for confirming that the "Holistic management" phrase in that PDF is nothing to do with Savoy's HM. It is holistic management.

P.S.
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* [url="http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10075605#post10075605"]Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?
* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?

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Old 30th June 2014, 10:48 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Who cares about a bit of text on their web site when the question is about the PDF that you linked to Red Baron Farms

However thanks for confirming that the "Holistic management" phrase in that PDF is nothing to do with Savoy's HM. It is holistic management.
It's the same group of farmers. Same county. Same land. Same management system. But the difference is whether a certified HM educator is teaching the management system as a whole, or if it is a case study of one small part of the effects of that management. Anyone can use, teach or study any part of HM's effects on a farm, but to teach the whole system for profit as a certified instructor, you need the trademark. This is an attempt in part to prevent what happened with holistic medicine, where scam artists co-opted the term to spread their woo, sullying the term "holistic". Since you are someone determined to sully the term holistic as it applies to land management as well, I can see how that trademark issue might be very frustrating to you. Get over it. It is a non issue.

All this is derailing the thread though. You have been taking it way out in left field and have lost focus. Let me help you back.

We both know CAFOs are a huge emissions source and destructive to the environment in other ways as well. Not just the CAFOs themselves, but the cropland used to support them. Even in many cases the overgrazed pastures where the stockers are raised. Eliminating them and replacing them with a animal husbandry model that sequesters carbon and improves the environment, even if it might or might not be enough to completely reverse AGW or restore all the desertified land in the world, is still a step in the right direction.

Personally I happen to agree that it isn't completely proven HM can completely reverse AGW or restore ecosystem services to all desertified land. I think it is likely, others say unlikely to benefit more than 10-30 %. It's still a benefit, unlike CAFOs which are actually helping to cause AGW.

This study shows the natural wild grassland/grazer biome does force climatic cooling. [1]

This study shows that on HM land, mimicking that lost wild biome can have a similar effect of increasing C in soils (reducing greenhouse gasses and restoring ecosystem services)[2]

Here is another study that confirms that effect and even confirms the effect is better than no grazing at all. [3]

This white paper shows the potential carbon cycle benefit if taken on a world wide scale might actually be larger than the studies that estimate only a 10-30% benefit. It's not proven, but it certainly shows the potential for action to rigorously confirm and quantify those benefits, which is the purpose of a white paper. [4]

This university extension guide explains how to use the effect to benefit other wildlife as well. [5]

This university extension guide explains how a farmer can use it at a profit, requiring no massive multi trillion dollar subsidies from society. [6]

This USDA case study shows how it can be integrated with crop production to turn those soils into a net carbon sink as well as increasing crop yields. [7]

This article by a well respected science writer shows that the scientific community, rather than regarding it as woo, actually is taking the concept very seriously. [8]

The current models of animal husbandry most commonly used around the world are part of the problem. However, that doesn't mean that the solution is to eliminate livestock from grazing land. There is another solution, and that is changing the way they are raised to something that instead of degrading the environment, restores it. HM is an important improvement towards that goal. Will it be enough? Frankly no one knows with certainty. But any system that improves yields of food, and improves the environment, and profits the farmer simultaneously does not deserve the scorn you are projecting here in this thread.
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Old 30th June 2014, 02:47 PM   #309
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Question Outstanding questions for Red Baron Farms

Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
It's the same group of farmers...usual wall of text snipped. ...
And what has this to do with the PDF, Red Baron Farms?

* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?

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Old 30th June 2014, 03:18 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
This study shows the natural wild grassland/grazer biome does force climatic cooling. [1]
Wrong, Red Baron Farms: That study suggests that climatic cooling over millions of years () had a component from the conversion of dry woodlands to grasslands.
Cenozoic Expansion of Grasslands and Climatic Cooling
The obvious issue for the paper is the concentration on grasslands when there were more important things happening that are known to have caused climate cooling. This is the forcing of the Cenozoic climate cooling:
Cenozoic Climate
Quote:
The Paleocene–Eocene Thermal Maximum of 55.8 million years ago was a significant global warming event; however, since the Azolla event of 49 million years ago, the Cenozoic Era has been a period of long-term cooling. After the tectonic creation of Drake Passage, when South America fully detached from Antarctica during the Oligocene, the climate cooled significantly due to the advent of the Antarctic Circumpolar Current which brought cool deep Antarctic water to the surface. The cooling trend continued in the Miocene, with relatively short warmer periods. When South America became attached to North America creating the Isthmus of Panama, the Arctic region cooled due to the strengthening of the Humboldt and Gulf Stream currents,[5] eventually leading to the glaciations of the Quaternary ice age, the current interglacial of which is the Holocene Epoch.
The reduction of dry woodlands is likely to be an effect of these geological changes.

I know about Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie. Duh!
Now cite the body of hundreds of scientific papers showing that Savoy's HM works better than any other management system !
P.S. this is basic science, Red Baron Farms - we know that Savoy's HM works because it includes existing good land management (no till seems to have been around since the 1950's, rotational grazing is standard, etc.). Thus the question is whether it works better.

Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland does not mention Savoy's HM. It is about time-controlled grazing systems.

A white paper from the rather ignorant about climate science Savoy (as shown by his TED talk) is not science about Savoy's HM.

A university extension guide is not science about Savoy's HM.
Another university extension guide is also not science about Savoy's HM!
A USDA case study not mentioning HM is not science about Savoy's HM!
A news article is not science about Savoy's HM.

The simple fact is that soil as a carbon storehouse is taken seriously by the scientific community so your citation of a news article stating that really needs a well Duh !

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Old 30th June 2014, 03:36 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post

I know about Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie. Duh!
Now cite the body of hundreds of scientific papers showing that Savoy's HM works better than any other management system !
P.S. this is basic science, Red Baron Farms - we know that Savoy's HM works because it includes existing good land management (no till seems to have been around since the 1950's, rotational grazing is standard, etc.). Thus the question is whether it works better.

Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland does not mention Savoy's HM. It is about time-controlled grazing systems.
There is where you fail, as I have repeatedly stated, it is HM land in the studies. In fact, in the case of the Teague study, one of the ranches (the one in the category that outperformed all others in the study) was Clint Josey's ranch. The same Clint Josey, Vice Chair Holistic Management International Board of Directors. Link Tried to explain that to you before, but you didn't even bother reading the damn study and checking the references. If you had you also would have found Robert Potts Link John Hackley link......

Same fail you had in refusing the evidence from the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District and Gabe Brown link. Those USDA case studies are being done on Holistic managed land, and they show the benefit of Holistic Management, but they are not going to say Holistic Management® unless it is a certified educator offering consulting services or training.
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Old 30th June 2014, 05:07 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
There is where you fail,
...snipped irrelevant rant....
This is where you fail, Red Baron Farms.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I know about Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie. Duh!
Now cite the body of hundreds of scientific papers showing that Savoy's HM works better than any other management system !
That includes that it is about HM.

You failed in producing any evidence about the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District "holistic management" phrase in a PDF being Savoy's HM.
In fact you confirmed that it was not Savoy's HM because it is missing the trade mark:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
However thanks for confirming that the "Holistic management" phrase in that PDF is nothing to do with Savoy's HM. It is holistic management.
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Old 30th June 2014, 05:15 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
There is where you fail,
Where you also fail , Red Baron Farms, is in ignoring the first part of my post where I point Out the science about Cenozoic climate cooling (basically caused over millions of years by continental movement).
And the rest of the post still needs addressing:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Wrong, Red Baron Farms: That study suggests that climatic cooling over millions of years () had a component from the conversion of dry woodlands to grasslands.
...
A white paper from the rather ignorant about climate science Savoy (as shown by his TED talk) is not science about Savoy's HM.

A university extension guide is not science about Savoy's HM.
Another university extension guide is also not science about Savoy's HM!
A USDA case study not mentioning HM is not science about Savoy's HM!
A news article is not science about Savoy's HM.

The simple fact is that soil as a carbon storehouse is taken seriously by the scientific community so your citation of a news article stating that really needs a well Duh !
The ignorance of assuming that any mention of holistic management is Savoy's trademarked HM is obvious. I do not do it. You should not do it. The only sources that apply to Savoy's trademarked HM are those that include Savoy's trademarked HM !

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Old 30th June 2014, 05:20 PM   #314
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Question Where is Savoy's trademarked HM cited as used on the property in question

I will turn this citation into a question, Red Baron Farms.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Red Baron Farms (1 July 2014): Where in ]Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland is Savoy's trademarked HM cited as used on the property in question?
Time-controlled grazing systems seem common and are part of Savoy's trademarked HM but we are looking for studies of Savoy's trademarked HM not bits of it that are standard land management.

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Old 30th June 2014, 07:55 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
I will turn this citation into a question, Red Baron Farms.

Red Baron Farms (1 July 2014): Where in ]Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland is Savoy's trademarked HM cited as used on the property in question?
Time-controlled grazing systems seem common and are part of Savoy's trademarked HM but we are looking for studies of Savoy's trademarked HM not bits of it that are standard land management.
Again, apparently you still refuse to read the damn scientific studies I keep linking to you.

Quote:
A system of flexible, high-intensity, short period grazing followed by a long period of rest (HI-SG) was first put forward by Savory in 1978 (Savory and Parsons, 1980) and was later introduced to Australia in 1989 by Stan Parsons as “Cell Grazing” (McCosker 2000). The terms of “The Savory Grazing System”, “Short Duration Grazing” and more specifically in this paper “Time-controlled Grazing” are the common names of the new grazing system. Time-controlled grazing (TC grazing) has been increasingly popular amongst graziers in Australia and the rest of the world over the past two decades.
You can look for the TM all you want. It makes no difference. It is a non issue. Maybe a legal issue, but certainly not a scientific issue. The paper is quite clear about the study testing Savory's claims.
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Old 30th June 2014, 08:22 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Again, apparently you still refuse to read the damn scientific studies I keep linking to you.
No, Red Baron Farms - I refuse to spend 25 dollars to read a paper that may or may not contain what you assert it contains: PDF (278 KB) $25

That is because I do not trust your assertions: Outstanding questions for Red Baron Farms dating from 28 May 2014!

I still do not see any mention of the Savoy's trademarked HM being used on the property. The quote says that they have picked one component of HM (the grazing system). Your answer is that Savoy's trademarked HM is not being used on the property.
Thus the paper is not a test of Savoy's trademarked HM. The paper is clear about not testing Savoy's clams because it does not mention that it is testing his HM claims.

ETA: The Australian reference reminded me of a blog about Savoy's TED talks and all of his "mimic nature" stuff: Livestock and climate: Why Allan Savory is not a saviour
Quote:
Savory’s approach has been considered by two Australian researchers, Geoff Russell and Gerard Wedderburn-Bisshop.
Their points include:
* it is definitely not mimicking nature since "current livestock populations dwarf natural populations that preceded them".
* "What Savory does not mention is that intensive (cell) grazing is only viable where water points are close and labour is cheap." The point about labor though can be addressed through electronic systems, e.g. automatic gates. But that may not be applicable to the large Australian ranches.
* "Also absent is mention of the failure of traditional intensive grazing in Russia, Siberia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, China and eastern Africa where large herds are constantly moved by traditional herders (as the Savory method does) – but sheer weight of livestock numbers has ravaged these landscapes in drought years, leading to more degradation."
* etc.

The last point is relevant to the relatively drought-prone Australia. What will happen with time-controlled grazing land if there is a prolonged drought?

Last edited by Reality Check; 30th June 2014 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 30th June 2014, 09:39 PM   #317
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
No, Red Baron Farms - I refuse to spend 25 dollars to read a paper that may or may not contain what you assert it contains: PDF (278 KB) $25

That is because I do not trust your assertions: Outstanding questions for Red Baron Farms dating from 28 May 2014!

I still do not see any mention of the Savoy's trademarked HM being used on the property. The quote says that they have picked one component of HM (the grazing system). Your answer is that Savoy's trademarked HM is not being used on the property.
Thus the paper is not a test of Savoy's trademarked HM. The paper is clear about not testing Savoy's clams because it does not mention that it is testing his HM claims.

ETA: The Australian reference reminded me of a blog about Savoy's TED talks and all of his "mimic nature" stuff: Livestock and climate: Why Allan Savory is not a saviour

Their points include:
* it is definitely not mimicking nature since "current livestock populations dwarf natural populations that preceded them".
* "What Savory does not mention is that intensive (cell) grazing is only viable where water points are close and labour is cheap." The point about labor though can be addressed through electronic systems, e.g. automatic gates. But that may not be applicable to the large Australian ranches.
* "Also absent is mention of the failure of traditional intensive grazing in Russia, Siberia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, China and eastern Africa where large herds are constantly moved by traditional herders (as the Savory method does) – but sheer weight of livestock numbers has ravaged these landscapes in drought years, leading to more degradation."
* etc.

The last point is relevant to the relatively drought-prone Australia. What will happen with time-controlled grazing land if there is a prolonged drought?
OK cool. I will attempt to find you free versions of both scientific studies. I guessed that as a scientist you had a way around the paywall.

The Teague study from Texas: link

The Sanjari study from Queensland: link

Sorry I couldn't find a better copy of the queensland study, but at least the text is there. I am also sorry I criticized you for not reading a study when you couldn't. But you did say that there was no indications they were about Savory's system, and I did not realise you made that claim without being able to know what was even in the study beyond the abstracts.

As far as the issues brought up by the Australian researchers, and your last question.....the difference being a greater scientific understanding of what constitutes overgrazing combined with adaptive management. In particular the Teague study addresses what happens in a drought because that study was done during a drought. The people up in Burleigh county also experienced severe drought during those case studies. Part of the reason it caught on and spread so quickly is that HM handles drought much better than most other management systems. A farmer experiencing crop failures farming right beside another farmer getting above average yields in the same drought conditions will find out why. It's just human nature. That reason why is mostly due to the positive effects on the water and carbon cycles. But also due to the proactive monitoring and adaption to changing conditions. ie canary in a coal mine.
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Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 30th June 2014 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 30th June 2014, 09:53 PM   #318
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
I guessed that as a scientist you had a way around the paywall.
Who said that I was a scientist ?

I was thinking about a prolonged, Australian-style (which I guess is more severe than a US one) drought when this time-controlled grazing has a large population on the land.
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Old 12th July 2014, 10:58 PM   #319
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This might help.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management
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Old 13th July 2014, 02:59 PM   #320
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
This might help.
Science by YT video, Red Baron Farms? No thanks.
ETA: Especially when it is just a bit of irrelevant propaganda from Allan Savory !

Actual answers to questions would be better:
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

* Red Baron Farms (17th June 2014): Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results (or confirm that you made a mistake stating that there are published results)

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Were all of the farmers in the conference or that panel invited because they performed better than standard BMP?

* Red Baron Farms (24 June 2014): Where is Gabe Brown's presentation on Savoy's HM at that conference?

* Red Baron Farms (1 July 2014): Where in Comparing the effects of continuous and time-controlled grazing systems on soil characteristics in Southeast Queensland is Savoy's trademarked HM cited as used on the property in question?

Last edited by Reality Check; 13th July 2014 at 03:23 PM.
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